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#sugar-meeting, 2011-02-19

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14:07 silbe dfarning_afk: who's going to lead the meeting today?
14:08 m_anish meeting happening today?
14:08 meeting m_anish: Error: "happening" is not a valid command.
14:08 m_anish is there a meeting happening today?
14:08 Nubae mirror mirror who is the most beautiful off them all? ;-)
14:10 m_anish carries on watching the cricket world cup :-)
14:11 Nubae refrains from knocking it...
14:11 tch and I am half sleep
14:12 m_anish tch, that means you're half awake (as well) :P
14:13 tch i could be half sleep half deep sleep
14:13 lol
14:16 m_anish tch, my intel processor is half asleep as well, every time I plug in the dell charger (which doesn't charge because of a broken 1wire data line), the frequency instantly drops from 2 x 2GHz to 2 x 800MHz
14:17 silbe m_anish: that's what you get for not using an XO :-P
14:17 Nubae now.... meeting or not meeting.... that is the question?
14:18 m_anish silbe, its still better than 1 x 400MHz and allows me to stream cricket matches
14:18 silbe m_anish: don't you have an XO-1.5?
14:18 m_anish silbe, ya
14:18 silbe, well that works as well
14:18 anyone wanna lead today's meeting?
14:19 silbe m_anish: that's 1GHz. Sufficient for most tasks, except fancy non-accelerated modern video codecs.
14:19 m_anish silbe, heh
14:21 silbe and those codecs even cause trouble on my dual core desktop if the resolution is high enough... All just because graphics chipset vendors do good video acceleration only in the Windows drivers :-/
14:21 m_anish wonders how many processor cycles has the world already wasted because of them ... maybe that's the real cause of global warming
14:22 silbe m_anish: computers (especially PCs) definitely play their part in it...
14:23 Green IT is fancy and at least partially a marketing trick, but definitely a good idea overall.
14:23 dogi silbe, which meeting is supposed to be
14:23 silbe dogi: Activity Central
14:23 dogi ohhh
14:24 silbe meeting commands
14:24 meeting silbe: action, add, addchair, alert, announce, announce add, announce list, announce remove, any, apply, apropos, at, author, ban add, ban list, ban remove, capabilities, capability add, capability list, capability remove, capability set, capability setdefault, capability unset, change, changename, channel, channels, channelstats, cmd, command, commands, config, connect, contributors, cpu, ctime, cycle, default, (3 more messages)
14:24 silbe meeting more
14:24 meeting silbe: defaultcapability, defaultplugin, dehalfop, deletemeeting, deop, devoice, dict, dictionaries, disable, disconnect, doctype, driver, echo, elapsed, enable, export, fetch, fit, flush, get, ghost, halfop, headers, help, hostmask, hostmask add, hostmask list, hostmask remove, identify, ignore, ignore add, ignore list, ignore remove, info, insert, invite, ircquote, join, kban, key, kick, langs, last, latency, (2 more messages)
14:24 silbe meeting more
14:24 meeting silbe: limit, list, listmeetings, ln, load, lobotomy add, lobotomy list, lobotomy remove, lock, log, mode, moderate, more, net, netcraft, networks, news, next, nick, nickometer, nicks, note, notice, old, op, part, password, pin, ping, pingall, plugin, praise, private, quit, random, rank, recent, reconnect, redo, register, reload, remove, rename, reorder, repeat, replace, reply, restore, rss, savemeetings, search, (1 more message)
14:24 silbe meeting help pingall
14:24 meeting silbe: (pingall <text>) -- Send a broadcast ping to all users on the channel. An message to be sent along with this ping must also be supplied for this command to work.
14:25 silbe meeting: pingall AC meeting about to start
14:25 meeting AC meeting about to start
14:25 [scs] aa___ alsroot_away bernie CanoeBerry ChanServ cjb dfarning_afk dirakx_away dogi homunq_ lfaraone lucian m_anish m_anish_afk manushee` marcopg mchua_afk meeting mk8 mtd Nubae pbrobinson satellit_ scorche silbe SMParris1_away tch tuukkah valhalla walterbender
14:25 yama
14:25 AC meeting about to start
14:26 lfaraone silbe: why thank you for waking me up :)
14:26 silbe let's wait another 5 minutes (i.e. start at 15:30) for everyone to wake up ;)
14:27 <g>
14:27 dogi hi lfaraone
14:27 silbe lfaraone: it's not healthy to sleep on the keyboard ;)
14:27 m_anish silbe, the coffee maker connected to my computer just poured it all over me :P
14:27 tch lol,
14:28 silbe: what about hugging the laptop?
14:30 lfaraone silbe: agreed.
14:31 m_anish wow, http://autsys.tkk.fi/intranet/as-0.3200/S09-07
14:32 Nubae hmmmm... have a lunch with graddad... possible for me to follow via 3g?
14:32 silbe m_anish: back in the fido jokes there was a running gag that some software could do everything, except making coffee. Those times seem to be over. :)
14:33 Nubae grand dad`
14:34 silbe Nubae: :-P
14:34 #startmeeting
14:34 meeting Meeting started Sat Feb 19 14:34:23 2011 UTC. The chair is silbe. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:34 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
14:34 walterbender m_anish: at the Media Lab, we used to have a coffee machine that read an RFID tag in your mug and automatically brewed your choice of espresso, latte, etc. and played your choice of radio station while brewing
14:34 m_anish silbe, i wonder if we could set parameters for amount of coffee, sugar, etc. :-)
14:34 silbe, my new project is to make a irc connected robotic tea (chai) maker :-)
14:34 walterbender, ah!
14:35 silbe #topic weekly reports
14:35 Nubae silbe, u think maybe I could be amongs the first, so I can then take off with my grandad?
14:35 SMParris1_away is now known as SMParrish
14:36 silbe I'll go first
14:38 erikos and I decided last night to slightly extend the 0.92 deadline until Wed so he can improve some parts on the metadata-on-USB patches before landing them. Refactorings etc. of the patches will take place in 0.94, though.
14:39 Nubae listens
14:39 silbe as you might have noticed, we managed to land quite a lot of patches since the last meeting. The delta between mainline/master and those patches from Dextrose-3 that I fixed up is rather small now.
14:40 The patches I did not work on yet are mostly from the accessibility, Backup/Restore and Feedback series.
14:40 Nubae silbe.... this be codumented somehwere? as it is useful to ocompression/fistro  on server project too
14:41 s/fistro/distro
14:41 silbe Another Design Team meeting is scheduled for tomorrow. I'm optimistic so far that we can unblock several important issues, though I'm not sure how long we can keep up the weekly schedule.
14:41 m_anish silbe, do you have any comments on the most common issues you came across while going through the patches?
14:42 silbe Nubae: ?
14:43 m_anish: you can check "git log"; I summarised the changes I did. Most common were style fix-ups and better descriptions.
14:43 m_anish silbe, ok
14:43 Nubae u mentioned delta... forget it... was thinking somethign else
14:43 silbe Sometimes the improved descriptions made the difference between reject and accept, see Speaker mute patch.
14:44 Nubae: ah, ok. I meant the number of patches that are in Dextrose, but not in mainline/master. (I suppose you got that now, but maybe someone else didn't understand it either)
14:45 any other question? If not, we can continue with m_anish.
14:46 tch lets continue then :)?
14:47 m_anish so, this week i've mostly been opening and monitoring bug reports while working on some issues, and testing the generated build... a point of concern is that we're not getting as much testing done from the teachers, formadores as i'd like...
14:47 the schools open on wednesday, we plan on going to caacupe and get some more testing done, otherwise the build looks stable...
14:47 silbe tch: an indication that somebody is currently typing (like e.g. Jabber has) would be nice :)
14:48 m_anish also there were some reports that dx-2 is slower than 0.84. I've been doing some tests with two laptops next to each other and both seem to run at almost the same speed
14:49 might be having some comparison videos by next week :)
14:49 dirakx_away is now known as dirakx
14:49 silbe m_anish: "is slower" should always be qualified by exactly what operation is slower. I know it's hard to get users to do that, though. :-/
14:49 m_anish silbe, agree :)
14:50 silbe, one of their complaints is that dx-2 is slower on a xo1 than on a xo1.5 which is a fundamentally fallacious comparison :/
14:50 silbe at least some general direction would be useful - starting activities, switching between activities, Journal interaction, using some activities, ...
14:50 m_anish silbe, i doubt we could get that info from them
14:51 Nubae just as a lowly beginning occassional user of upgrading my xos with 0s6dx2s.img with same .crc file gave me bad checksum veveral times
14:51 silbe m_anish: I partially blame the (nearly) identical appearance of the XOs for that. Try explaining to a user that three additional dots on the surface make the machine more than twice as fast. :)
14:52 Nubae: have you tried using the MD5SUM files to check your download? If the download gets corrupted, there's nothing we can do about it.
14:53 dirakx Nubae:  i had the same problem..had to check the SUM twice.
14:53 silbe Nubae: oh, are you saying the using the _same_ file several times results sometimes in failures, but sometimes it works?
14:53 Nubae wel i downloaded like 5 differetn times
14:54 I'm just saying its surely  a problem that comes up a lot
14:54 silbe ok. Then it might still be a download issue.
14:54 m_anish done with his status
14:54 silbe We should set up bittorrent. The protocol has inherent checksumming.
14:55 m_anish: can you give a short summary of the next deadlines etc. ?
14:55 Nubae wonders, is there not an easier all encompassing way to download a whole package and install, detect chekcsum errors and redownload bad bits
14:55 silbe Exactly!
14:56 with bittorrent, one just checks file, and it only downloads messed up parts
14:56 it could even be a super simplified bittorrent app just for sugar
14:56 m_anish silbe, sure, so the school open on this wednesday, we'll slowly start flashing laptops this week and gradually expand, i really don't know how much time is this gonna take. next the 5000 xo1.5's should be arriving soon and if given the go ahead, we have to nandblast them ... their handout happens around 2-4th week of march
14:57 silbe Nubae: would you like to set up bittorrent on sunjammer? We've been meaning to do it for some time, but it wasn't high-priority.
14:57 m_anish tch, ^^ (anything to add)
14:57 Nubae silbe sure... rtorrent?
14:57 dirakx is glad to know deadlines.
14:57 Nubae rtorrent has distance based guis... I mean, live vnc
14:57 works great
14:57 m_anish silbe, also thinking of releasing updates as per a schedule... starting from weekly, then bi-weekly and finally monthly
14:58 silbe m_anish: how is the update of existing XOs going to be done? Can we improve the technology to make it faster?
14:58 m_anish dirakx, priority should be to get activity issues fixed sooner
14:58 silbe, Nandblasting
14:58 silbe Nubae: let's talk about that after the meeting. Thanks for working on it!
14:58 dirakx m_anish +1.
14:59 silbe m_anish: the schedule sounds good
14:59 Nubae k.... distributing updates... why not use the server for that
14:59 let it cache
14:59 then push to xos, or let xos pull
14:59 m_anish dirakx, btw the browse | objectchooser issue exists on 0.84 build as well :/ , lucian found an issue with gmail code
15:00 dirakx m_anish about that this seems to be an upstream issue..:( at least what lucian found.
15:01 tch m_anish: lets just hope the schedules don't change in the last minute,
15:01 silbe m_anish: so for preserving the Journal contents you're relying on the XS? How do you ensure that there are no updated (i.e. not yet backed up) entries on the XO?
15:01 m_anish dirakx, ya we could look into packaging f13-xulrunner et al for f11 and see if it works
15:01 dirakx m_anish yeah..
15:01 silbe m_anish: FWIW, that's good news to me as it means it's not a regression ;)
15:02 tch m_anish: even with nandblasting, it could take 1 day per school, and need to consider kids that won't go to school that same day... we could pass the build to formadores who works there just in case
15:02 m_anish silbe, i was talking to roberto re that, he's gonna decide what to do re: backing up, i haven't heard back from him
15:02 tch, ya
15:02 silbe Nubae: the XS already includes a web cache, doesn't it? That should be good enough for now.
15:03 dirakx m_anish I'll check closely into that. anyway pygtk-xulrunner interaction would be always flacky. but Surf stil need time as some parts are not yet ready.
15:03 Nubae silbe it will do very very soon, but lets get to that when its my turn to talk
15:04 m_anish tch, once we're done with the build, we'll need some time for the rpm for XS's and schools without internet
15:04 Nubae we have some decisions to make based on questions I have
15:04 tch Nubae: please remember that our problem is not school with intermittent internet connection, our problem is that those school do not have internet at all, and we don't know when or if they ever going to
15:04 Nubae I know
15:05 I spent yesterday evening till very late/early and have the solutions
15:05 but need some input from u guys, but continue
15:05 silbe m_anish: one idea I had in the past is to do a USB stick that contains a signed initramfs to back up resp. restore the home dir with tar (using the serial number as part of the filename).
15:05 Nubae let me know hen its my turn
15:05 tch m_anish: backup of what?
15:06 silbe: ^
15:06 silbe Nubae: ok (proxy)
15:06 tch: in general: the Journal; for the USB stick: the entire home directory (/home/olpc), incl. the data store.
15:07 m_anish silbe, interesting, what we could do (hacky) is to backup to USB change the folder name (serial number) and just copy it to another xo
15:07 tch, i guess ^ should work?
15:07 silbe m_anish: if you want to restore to a different XO, then yes, that would work.
15:07 m_anish tch, silbe, i mean using the backup to USB feature already present
15:08 tch m_anish, silbe: there are backups already at the school server, the current builds also provide a backup to XS on demand at the CP section
15:08 silbe m_anish: the advantage of the "backup stick" is that you only need to plug it in, not use a GUI => faster
15:08 Nubae backup is super simple... its just about picking the method one wants
15:08 m_anish silbe, is something like that present already?
15:09 tch, the old laptops won't have the backup feature, or do they?
15:09 Nubae thinks rsync + puppet
15:09 m_anish old=0.84
15:09 tch m_anish, silbe: they do, that was my first approach it is on the CP section
15:09 silbe m_anish: not yet, that's the problem. And I won't have time to implement it until you start updating.
15:10 tch m_anish, silbe: they have os-py 0.84, I added a backup/restore to XS for the CP
15:10 m_anish tch, ah, then it shouldn't be an issue!
15:10 silbe tch: are you doing the update while the kids are present? If so, does the CP provide a visible "everything is backed up" indication?
15:11 Nubae itwould be a waste and confusing to back everything up
15:12 tch silbe: well i am not sure how they are planning to do it, but they should. This CP section just uses what is already built on XS, nothing fancy
15:12 Nubae there are great apps like the moodle addon mahora
15:12 a kind of facebook with major cv+document sharing+ backup
15:13 silbe Nubae: the question isn't what technical solution is easiest, but rather how we can improve the process in a way that works best for and is the fastest for the people doing the update.
15:13 Nubae ok, let me ask differently, who will be doing the updates?
15:13 dirakx has to go afk for 15 min. will be back soon.
15:13 Nubae not the kids I take it fom what u just said?
15:14 silbe tch: so the CP provides an indication that everything has been backed up that the teacher could check? I.e. tell all kids to power up, go to the CP to trigger the backup and then do a tour through the class to check everyone has indeed backed their stuff up?
15:15 tch silbe: yeah, something like that
15:15 Nubae silbe that sounds like mahora,,,, have u seen it in action?
15:15 silbe tch: ok, perfect.
15:15 tch silbe:  that is how we did it in the past atleast,
15:16 m_anish: ^ copying? :)
15:16 m_anish tch, ack
15:16 tch m_anish: :)
15:16 silbe tch: ok, so I won't have to ask if you've done the nandblasting part before. :)
15:16 tch: any other idea on what we could do to make it easier or faster?
15:18 Nubae hmmmm sheeeeet.... s/mahora/Mahara
15:18 lucian has read some of the backlog
15:18 silbe (for this time - future updates will benefit from the ability to do rpm updates)
15:19 tch silbe: not sure if it would work, but if we could know if they current backup represents the current journal state, that would save time
15:19 silbe tch: only the XO knows that, so the only way to check it is to power up and check the XO - either manually (CP) or automatically (backup stick).
15:21 tch silbe: of course, the question is: is would work technically? (how can you define the journal state? a hash? )
15:22 s/: is/: it
15:22 silbe: well, guess we can talk about that later
15:23 silbe tch: the technical side is easy enough. We have uid, metadata and checksum (MD5 over the data file).
15:23 ok, anything else re. the roll-out?
15:24 tch m_anish: ^
15:24 m_anish silbe, nope, can't think of anything else relevant at this point
15:24 silbe nice. let's continue with tch then.
15:24 tch kk
15:25 m_anish has to leave for spanish lesson in 10 mins
15:26 Nubae m_anish_afk buena suerte y que tengas una profesora bombona
15:26 silbe m_anish: is there anything else you'd like to talk or know about?
15:27 (before you leave)
15:27 Nubae he's afk I believe
15:27 tch Well, basically this week I got split in 3, (1) dx2 testing and bugfixing, (2) talking with nubae about what are our needs for the schools with no internet and (3) contacting our friends from AU
15:27 m_anish silbe, hmm, no
15:27 Nubae, i'm both afk (and not) ;)
15:28 Nubae oh... hehe
15:28 too many machines
15:28 silbe m_anish: ok. don't tease your teacher too much. ;)
15:28 Nubae unless she's a bombona
15:29 dirakx :)
15:29 m_anish Nubae, (more wasted processor cycles :/)
15:29 tch for (1) I think we have done a great job, fixed most of the blockers we had not only for sugar but for activities too
15:29 Nubae then just go for it
15:29 m_anish silbe, Nubae its a he :)
15:29 Nubae oh... I feel for u
15:29 ;-)
15:29 dirakx tch: yeah good work!.
15:29 silbe m_anish: more information than I wanted :-P
15:30 wonders if tease wasn't a good translation...
15:30 m_anish :D
15:30 silbe tch: good work!
15:30 tch (2) Nubae will provide me easy way to redirect wan domains to local network address, so we can provide rpms/activities updates on the schools with no internert
15:31 silbe ah, split horizon DNS
15:31 Nubae tch I spoke to martin L about it yesterday too, but ill get into that in a sec
15:31 tch (3) I wrote an email to olpc.AU folks asking a few questions about what they are doing to see how we can help them :)
15:31 lucian tch: that sounds a little scary
15:31 the dns bit
15:31 Nubae lucian its not
15:32 silbe tch: work on Backup/Restore (activities) ;)
15:32 Nubae wait for the full explanation
15:32 tch silbe: +1
15:32 haha
15:32 lucian Nubae: ok
15:33 silbe tch: did you hear back from them yet?
15:34 tch silbe: nope, I sent the email last night,
15:34 silbe ok. What blockers remain for DX-2?
15:36 tch silbe: the only that comes to my mind is the browse objectchooser one
15:36 m_anish leaves for spanish class
15:36 m_anish has quit IRC
15:36 silbe lucian: what's the latest word re. that one? ^
15:37 tch silbe: beside that we most of the blockers solved :) (one way or another haha)
15:37 s/we most/we have most
15:37 lucian silbe: i'm not sure what's going on
15:37 for one, gmail has wrong markup
15:38 however, other browsers don't seem to mind
15:39 i believe xulrunner chokes on that markup and for some reason unregisters the Browse FilePicker
15:39 silbe well, we do exactly the same as the other browsers do if - show the file chooser ;)
15:39 s/if //
15:40 dirakx lucian: have you tested with a different version of xulrunner ?
15:40 lucian dirakx: no, i didn't manage to
15:40 dirakx lucian: I thing dsd has new packeges that we can test on.
15:41 silbe lucian: have you tried reproducing it with a minimal example (instead of Browse)? (for reporting the bug upstream)
15:41 lucian i should probably also run it on gdb
15:41 silbe: i tried, but i couldn't
15:41 silbe that's bad...
15:41 lucian it's extremely frustrating
15:41 actually, i didn't try with a minimal browser, just a minimal page
15:42 silbe FWIW I can fell with you - this kind of bug is very hard to diagnose and certainly not fun.
15:42 dirakx lucian: #10595 laptop.org
15:42 silbe: +1.
15:42 lucian strongly dislikes xulrunner
15:42 silbe lucian: ah, ok. A minimal browser would be still worth a try then, so we can report it upstream.
15:42 too
15:43 lucian silbe: yeah
15:43 tch seems to agree
15:43 dirakx lucian: sorry this seems more likely #10684
15:43 silbe lucian: once DX-2 is out, we should talk about what exactly we need to get Surf into DX-3.
15:44 lucian silbe: i can tell you now: dump pygtk&friends for gobject-introspection and a fresh webkit
15:44 silbe lucian: "dump" is not an option. Installing in parallel (if possible) would be.
15:44 tch: anything else you'd like to mention?
15:44 lucian silbe: that's not possible. sugar-toolkit still uses pygtk
15:44 you can't mix them
15:45 tch silbe: nope, :)
15:45 silbe lucian: is it just a run-time issue or can't you even install the packages in parallel?
15:45 lucian silbe: just runtime
15:45 silbe a run-time issue we could solve.
15:46 lucian Browse relies on sugar-toolkit, so both would have to be ported
15:46 silbe ok, let's continue with dirakx then
15:46 lucian but afaik, s-t has C bits
15:46 dirakx ok a minor update.
15:47 silbe lucian: quick hack: ship a g-i'ified version of sugar-toolkit (no C bits required) as part of Surf.
15:47 (but let's talk about that when DX-3 development fully starts)
15:48 lucian silbe: ugh. yeah, i guess
15:48 dirakx we worked with activities blockers..fixing bugs. some pootle work, also we have complemented http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/A[…]ry/Editors/Policy
15:48 this is inorder to have a better QA of activities.
15:49 tch dirakx: :)
15:49 dirakx NZ testers are collaborating with this ;)
15:49 I have a request of a sysadmin help..about upgrading pootle..
15:50 would be nice to work sometime today or tomorrow fixing it up.
15:50 our upgrade managed to broke commits.
15:50 silbe dirakx: what exactly do you need help with? maybe dogi can help.
15:51 dirakx silbe: I guess only back up..if any gets too damaged.
15:51 silbe (I have neither PHP or Pootle knowledge nor time, sorry)
15:51 Nubae is pretty pootle fluent
15:51 dirakx this upgrade should do for pgettext support.
15:51 Nubae but also pretty backed up
15:51 so couldnt look within 2 weeks at least
15:52 silbe dirakx: ok, we should be able to provide that - IIRC Pootle is routinely backed up using duplicity in case everything else fails.
15:52 Nubae also, used pootle for tranlsating my edu python app to Spanish
15:52 dirakx silbe: right..ok I only need that.
15:52 Nubae: silbe I'll ping you if I need any help then.
15:53 Nubae dirakx to be honest, it soounds harder than it is
15:53 silbe dirakx, Nubae: ok, then we'll do the backup and you (dirakx) can try the upgrade today on your own, and if anything goes wrong we can restore and you two (dirakx+Nubae) can try again in two weeks.
15:54 dirakx silbe: sounds good.
15:55 I'll try tonight.
15:55 silbe dirakx: thx!
15:55 dirakx silbe: so is everything backed up ?
15:55 Nubae silbe I sent email to team, can u please moderate it... for some reason it just wouldn't go through AC
15:55 silbe dirakx: I'd like to check first to be sure.
15:55 dirakx silbe: ok thanks.
15:55 Nubae its relevant to the next piece of info
15:56 silbe Nubae: you sent using your gmail.com address again, not using the ac.(com|org) address. Only ac.(com|org) gets through unmoderated.
15:56 done
15:56 Nubae I tried first with ac address
15:56 but it failed
15:57 tch silbe: could you send my ac acc info to my gmail inbox please :)?
15:57 Nubae and couldnt be bothered to reverse engineer at this critical time
15:57 dirakx just other thing ..we are working on miel collection if you have suggestions for inclusion of activities http://activities.sugarlabs.or[…]r/collection/miel
15:57 Nubae It wont happen again, promise
15:57 tch silbe: I keep getting rejected for team
15:57 silbe Nubae: :)
15:57 tch: let's work on it after the meeting.
15:58 tch silbe: ACK
15:58 silbe dirakx: nice progress. Anything else?
15:59 dirakx silbe: nop ;).
15:59 tch is it now when we drink tequilas and celebrate for another productive week?
16:00 silbe alsroot_away, bernie: would you like to say anything?
16:00 Nubae hehe, if only
16:01 silbe tch: I "celebrate" by working on the slides for my talk about about HV supplies for X-ray tubes on monday. :-/
16:01 tch bernie: deme!
16:01 dirakx silbe: that sounds interesting ;)
16:02 tch:  maybe beer will be all right.
16:02 tch silbe: too wild for me sorry ;)
16:02 silbe dirakx: it definitely is - and hard to squeeze into a 12 minute talk :-/
16:02 tch: lol
16:02 Nubae k.... am I up?
16:02 silbe Nubae: you have the stage :)
16:03 dirakx silbe: I've studied some X-ray tube theory on a class at U. .but i forgot about it now.
16:04 Nubae ok,  cool... very nice developments this week... tch and me bounced ideas back and forth quite frantically, some of them a bit a head of their time, but most of them very doable and implementable in a short time frame
16:04 The mail u guys should have received was sort of the final conclusion that me and tch came up with and I sent it to to Martin L, to see what he thought about it
16:05 As u can see, the response was actually very positive... so applause for tch for coming up with a new requirement for the XS server and derivatives there of
16:06 dirakx great.
16:06 silbe is surprised the XS doesn't already ship wwwoffle
16:06 bernie silbe: say something about tequila? ;-)
16:06 Nubae The idea wsa simple enough to begin with... we wanted to redirect one url to a local source, so it wouldnt have to do a DNS lookup for activities.sugarlabs.org
16:06 silbe bernie: yep, you wanted to give a round I heard :-P
16:07 bernie silbe: the xs does not ship many things... it doesn't even have squid!
16:07 silbe (or whatever the english translation is)
16:07 bernie silbe: hehe, i get it :)
16:07 silbe bernie: that's exactly what we're talking about (wwwoffle is an HTTP proxy) ;)
16:07 tch (it makes sense when translating it to spanish, al least)
16:08 Nubae This then transmutated to an idea that we could use a configuration file in which to put sites to be cached, editted by teachers/admins/or even students (an activity anyone?)
16:08 silbe tch: that's a start :D
16:09 Nubae between me and the folks here... the XS is amongst the worst distros I've had the pleasure of working with
16:09 I hope this channel is not logged :-/
16:09 dirakx Nubae: that's a good idea for an activity.
16:09 Nubae oh... I was just kiddig anyway
16:09 :p
16:09 so... back to point...
16:10 bernie silbe: ah... then either squid or wwwoffle would be fine with me. in paraguay we've been using squid and i installed it also in mozambique. what makes wwwoffle interesting?
16:11 silbe Nubae: meetings are always logged and public.
16:11 Nubae there were many choices, use bind + squid, use dnsmasq+squid, use wwwoffle, and finally, an idea thta seems to be the most interestng of all, a patched version of squid, using dnsmasq which is the way I am going right now
16:11 bernie not much wwwoffle is new, not benchmarked
16:11 but a sort of alll in one solution
16:12 I'm not too fond of it
16:12 silbe right thats why I said I was kidding, I love the XS... best distro in the world!
16:12 silbe bernie: it's specifically made for "offline" (i.e. non-24/7 uplink) operation (dial-up etc.). I've been using it for many years on my laptops.
16:13 Nubae silbe hang on a sec though
16:13 bernie silbe: ah, ok. makes sense for the xs.
16:13 Nubae in the attachment I sent u guys... there is a patch for squid... its does one of 3 things.... turn caching completely On forever
16:14 tch goes to eat something,
16:14 Nubae detect if interenet access is availlable and refresh content, and alllow someone to choose which content to refresh manually
16:15 its been used by quite some people, and they are all saying it sounds great... I personally think dnsmasq +squid would be the way to go....
16:15 why?
16:15 because people know squid
16:16 and dnsmasq is 10-20 times easier than bind9
16:16 what do u think?
16:16 m_anish_afk is now known as m_anish
16:16 Nubae can always go back and use wwwoffle at any time if it turns out not to work as advertised
16:17 silbe tch: bon apo
16:17 lucian likes dnsmasq
16:17 silbe Nubae: people also know wwwoffle and it's been specifically written for this instead of hacked.
16:18 Nubae finally... got a lot of this advice from folks on #bind, #dnsmasq and Scott@solarone.net: http://www.gnuveau.net/cgi-bin[…].cgi/SolarNetWiki
16:18 please look at link
16:18 lucian i am skeptical of squid's performance
16:18 silbe Nubae: Wizzy Digital Courier and similar projects use it, too.
16:18 Nubae silbe this is a patch, not a hack
16:18 and squid has been around 20 years longer than wwwoffle
16:19 I guarantee wwwoffle's performance will be light years away from squid
16:19 lucian for example, last time i checked squid did its own swapping, which is just silly on modern machines
16:19 silbe Nubae: turning squid into an offline proxy qualifies as hack to me, no matter what the patch looks like.
16:19 lucian: you might have misunderstood how squid works
16:20 Nubae lucian u can choose where/how/which filesystem to swap with
16:20 I'm not sure what u mean?
16:20 lucian Nubae: yes, which is silly
16:20 silbe lucian: it has both an in-RAM and an on-disk cache, but nothing that resembles swapping.
16:20 lucian the varnish guy explains it better than i do
16:20 silbe: yes, and it should realistically only have one
16:20 Nubae silbe offline has been in squid since its inception what are u talking about?
16:20 offline_mode
16:21 lucian anyway, my point is just that squid isn't necessarily fast. all options should be benchmarked
16:22 Nubae wel,l, I've done my research... spoken to folks in the many places its used... I've not come across anyone telling me squid's performance is slow
16:22 complicated for the lay person, perhaps, slow? compared to what?
16:23 silbe lucian: I beg to differ. RAM and disk have different performance characteristics, so different layouts and algorithms make sense.
16:24 Nubae silbe... the patch I sent, simply adds 1 more option to Squid... it allows it to play well with intermittent connections+
16:24 lucian silbe: modern OSes make that obsolete, mostly
16:24 Nubae but squid has ALWAYS been an offline proxy if needed
16:25 lucian modern oses?
16:25 silbe Nubae: interesting, I didn't know about that option. But does it have all the other features (requesting pages to be fetched on next dial-up etc.) that make wwwoffle so useful?
16:25 Nubae anyway, this conversation is degrading to completely unconstructive
16:25 lucian virtual memory in modern OSes is usually better at optimising than separate code for memory and disk
16:26 Nubae silbe basically it turns it into wwwoffle (thats really making it basic)
16:26 but yes.... its made for dialup
16:26 lucian anyway, if it's fast enough it shouldn't be an issue
16:26 silbe lucian: I definitely want to see the numbers that back this up.
16:26 Nubae me too :-)
16:26 lucian is rifling through varnish docs
16:27 Nubae remember, there are about 100 plugins to support squid's performance needs on large load balanced systems
16:27 silbe Nubae: and why don't we use wwwoffle right away then? ;)
16:28 Nubae wwwoffle as far as I know, does not play nice with dnsmasq (according to the channel boys)
16:28 also, I dont know wwwoffle as well, and I imagine most people in the field dont either
16:28 is that not a good enough reason?
16:28 silbe Nubae: do we expect any deployment to operate load balanced proxies?
16:28 Nubae never say never
16:29 silbe Nubae: I don't expect people in the field to know squid, either. I can't really claim that I understand it well enough myself (and I've been running squid for about a decade now)
16:29 Nubae silbe right... but if we throw something at them that they dont even know the name of
16:29 think politically for a second
16:30 silbe Nubae: BTW, I'm not saying that your idea is bad and we shouldn't try it out - I'm just skeptical that it's better than wwwoffle.
16:30 Nubae silbe thats why I said above... if I see its not working....
16:30 I will gofor wwwoffle
16:30 silbe Nubae: then we can show them that it's used by projects with very similar needs. It's got a reputation.
16:31 Nubae: ok, get me a working prototype (XS image) and I'll try it out. :)
16:31 Nubae <Nubae> can always go back and use wwwoffle at any time if it turns out not to work as advertised
16:31 feels much more comfortable with dnsmasq and squid
16:32 but what I wrote above is also true
16:32 it mayeven be the point that we give them a choice
16:32 who knows
16:33 its early days... why not do at least a little bit of R and D
16:33 silbe Nubae: giving them a choice might be a good idea. It'll increase our support load, but would give us feedback which one works better in the field.
16:33 Nubae: do you need anything else to continue working?
16:34 Nubae is used to coming from an environment (Guadalinex-edu) where we checked tens of solutions before choosing one
16:34 no.... just the VM u promised to build statusnet in
16:35 and whatever other experimental things that might crop up
16:35 I know I know... I need to send u my public key
16:35 silbe :)
16:35 Nubae can u take it from my git are?
16:35 or should I send it?
16:35 silbe alsroot_away might be able to
16:36 Nubae did u see this? http://www.linux.com/archive/feature/151362
16:36 silbe Nubae: are you "nubae" on gitorious?
16:36 Nubae yeah
16:37 but wait... I just upgraded my key... so need to upload that
16:37 dont take the old one... give me a couple mins
16:37 silbe Nubae: nop, but I've read the web site for the SolarNetOne project.
16:37 Nubae: ok.
16:37 Nubae watch the movie in the mean time, its abonut xos and how to get internet to remote locations
16:38 silbe Nubae: you don't happen to have a direct link to the video (as MPEG or whatever)? I have youtube-dl, but it's using some other site (blip.tv). :-/
16:38 Nubae I know scott pretty well, as hes heavily involved with LTSP.... he was the one who suggested squid and a dns server as best solutions, he didnt like wwwoffle
16:38 silbe anyone else want to say something before we finish=
16:38 ?
16:39 Nubae ogg-theora right click to download
16:39 http://blip.tv/file/get/Lc-GNU[…]sForRemote596.OGG
16:40 lucian heh, wwwoffle could've solved some of my issues when i was on 3g internet
16:40 Nubae hmmm u didnt have always on 3G connect?
16:40 silbe Nubae: thx!
16:41 #endmeeting
16:41 meeting Meeting ended Sat Feb 19 16:41:03 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
16:41 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-19T14:34:23.html
16:41 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-02-19T14:34:23
16:41 lucian Nubae: it didn't always work
16:41 silbe lucian: which issues exactly? I can imagine it doesn't work too well if transfers get interrupted (though squid probably wouldn't do any better ;) ).
16:41 Nubae silbe Scott  has found very efficient/cheap ways to get net access to very remote locations
16:42 its super intersting stuff... he said he'd be happy to consult for us, if we needed to
16:42 lucian silbe: the 3g kept disconnecting and screwing things up
16:43 Nubae lucian weird... I have 3g for a year now, and it works like a charm
16:43 cant remember not living without it anymore
16:43 lucian Nubae: try using it with a bad signal :)
16:43 Nubae silbe how come I get my crc being corrupted every time?
16:44 silbe Nubae: ask your provider. transparent proxy maybe?
16:44 Nubae lucian oh well, mine jumps to gprs in those situations
16:44 but it never switches off
16:44 lucian Nubae: no, no signal at all
16:44 silbe totally hates those. They make debugging network issues a PITA.
16:44 lucian mobile signal in the UK is crap
16:45 Nubae ah... saturation probably
16:45 I dont live in a big city
16:45 lucian no, it's just crap
16:45 the city isn't very big
16:45 silbe lucian: my phone has a tendency to drop phone calls if the battery gets too low, even if it's still in the "green area" (> 1/3 capacity left). :-/
16:45 lucian silbe: that sounds like a buggy phone
16:46 Nubae lucian what phone?
16:46 silbe lucian: buggy phone and old battery
16:46 lucian silbe's
16:46 Nubae I have a HTC... very happy with it
16:46 silbe lucian: it's so buggy that it even runs Windows :(
16:46 lucian silbe: heh
16:46 silbe is talking about a Telekom-branded HTC Universal
16:46 lucian i almost like my motorola milestone
16:46 Nubae The new htcs look soooo nice
16:47 I want a Desire 2
16:47 wow that looks nice
16:47 ok, well... have to run...
16:47 silbe -> lunch
16:47 Nubae silbe cool video eh?
16:48 interesting guy to talk to
16:48 I told him I'd forward his mail to dfarning/us
16:48 we could learn a LOT from the dude methinks
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18:08 silbe Nubae: the two interesting minutes of this quarter-of-an-hour video were when he mentioned where he got the money from to build the first installation :)
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