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#sugar-meeting, 2011-02-20

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16:00 garycmartin_ Hi, anyone here for the design meeting?
16:01 FGrose Hi garycmartin_
16:01 garycmartin_ FGrose: Hi!
16:01 Hmmm, no sign of Christian, Walter or Sascha...
16:06 silbe will join soon
16:07 walterbender left just a few minutes ago. Maybe trouble witht the internet connection?
16:07 and ch
16:07 garycmartin_ FGrose: silbe, will loiter about until half past to see if a few more show up, that OK for you? If no one else shows, best to reschedule for another day.
16:07 silbe and christianmarcsch peeked in an hour ago. maybe he'll come back.
16:07 garycmartin_ silbe: Hi.
16:08 FGrose Fine with me.
16:13 silbe Hi everyone!
16:13 garycmartin_: ok
16:14 walterbender <walterbender!~webchat@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:16 silbe ah, there's walterbender
16:16 walterbender silbe: I was here earlier.. thought the meeting was at 9 EST, 14UTC
16:17 garycmartin_ walterbender: Hi.
16:17 walterbender hi garycmartin_ thanks for keeping the ball rolling re design
16:18 garycmartin_ walterbender: do you think Christian will make it back today?
16:18 walterbender garycmartin_: he came and went about an hour ago
16:19 silbe walterbender: the wiki said 16 UTC. IIRC we only agreed on "about the same time" last week.
16:19 walterbender silbe: I realized that after the fact :P
16:19 silbe I don't care much for any particular time as long as the meeting is actually happening ;)
16:19 garycmartin_ silbe: walterbender: Yea 16:00 UTC was what went out in my email as well.
16:20 walterbender admits he is a knuckehead
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16:20 silbe ah, right: http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ruary/030068.html
16:21 I'd say we wait until 16:30 UTC for christianmarcsch to join, otherwise we'll start without him.
16:22 We should keep going. Christian can still follow up via email if he has additional ideas.
16:22 garycmartin_ silbe: Agreed, I just email pinged him as well.
16:22 silbe garycmartin_: great, thanks!
16:30 garycmartin_ #startmeeting
16:30 meeting Meeting started Sun Feb 20 16:30:07 2011 UTC. The chair is garycmartin_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:30 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
16:30 garycmartin_ OK lets start, hopefully Christian might join us later.
16:31 #topic Remove Keep button from activities, replace with Duplicate function in Journal
16:32 walterbender is that more than a semantic difference>
16:33 silbe walterbender: ?
16:33 walterbender there is a subtle difference in my mind: keep as it is keeps the same activity ID
16:33 which means it really isn't a copy
16:33 silbe walterbender: I think that's widely considered a bug.
16:34 walterbender I do something slightly different in TA (I added a separate button for keeping a copy with a new ID)
16:34 garycmartin_ walterbender: Keep with the same activity ID is a really obtuse behaviour that almost no one realises and trips up many.
16:34 walterbender without the saved share info, etc.
16:35 garycmartin_: agreed. I wanted to make sure that we were doing more than changing the name... sorry for being unclear
16:35 (and then I can remove the extra button in TA)
16:35 silbe walterbender: ah, ok.
16:36 dfarning_afk is now known as dfarning
16:36 walterbender so +1 from me
16:36 silbe anyway, the use case for keeping the activity_id is better solved by introducing real version support (which didn't land in 0.92 for OLPC<->AC coordination / synchronisation issues, but will land for 0.94)
16:37 walterbender silbe: agreed...
16:37 silbe s/issues/reasons/
16:37 garycmartin_ The background story is that many seem to think 'Keep' is the 'Save' button in Sugar, some smaller number see it as a 'make a copy' button, very few seem to spot the 'copy but with the same ID as the original' and usually report it as a bug.
16:37 walterbender silbe: I do hope versioning lands some day
16:37 silbe walterbender: if we can keep the pace up, 0.94 will get rather interesting.
16:38 walterbender garycmartin_: I have also seen people hit it repatedly when they are not getting the behavior they expect from changing the name in the toolbar. (an old race-condition bug that was still lingering in the Peru build)
16:38 silbe garycmartin_: nice summary
16:40 garycmartin_ silbe: FWIW I keep reading blogs and emails from teachers, tech folks where Keep is clearly being assumed to do something else, some are teaching kids to click it every time you want your work saved, there must be a lot of Journal junk cluttering up those journals :-(
16:41 silbe walterbender: so you agree that getting rid of Keep and implementing a Duplicate functionality somewhere in the Journal is a good idea?
16:41 walterbender yes
16:41 garycmartin_ OK, so if we drop the 'Keep' button, is there any consensus to replacing it with something else (as we have the space), e.g. Journal details metadata editing?
16:41 walterbender sounds good to me :)
16:41 silbe garycmartin_: :-/ fortunately the 0.84+ data store efficiently saves duplicated data files (though the meta data still takes up a lot of space)
16:42 walterbender even designed an icon for that function ages ago :)
16:43 garycmartin_ walterbender: FWIW2, the other issue with Keep is that it provided no user feedback so folks had no idea it worked unless they went and looked at the Journal and noticed their activity had beed copied.
16:43 walterbender garycmartin_: yes.
16:44 silbe garycmartin_: that's another outstanding proposal: Replace the naming dialog with something better (e.g. toolbar button, switch to journal afterwards). I'd suggest to keep (no pun intended) discussing Keep / Duplicate first. Let's just assume for now that we already have that new functionality.
16:44 (to avoid bouncing back and forth between the two topics)
16:45 garycmartin_ walterbender: Having the details button in the Activity toolbar will hopefully resolve the issues you were having getting at the correct object.
16:45 walterbender silbe:  It seems we have consensus on removing Keep. Would we "keep" a copy button or put that in the Journal
16:45 right now, the copy button in the Journal copies to the clipboard, which I find confusing
16:46 garycmartin_ walterbender: I'd go with 'Duplicate' for the wording.
16:47 silbe walterbender: Since we auto-save immediately, just in the Journal should be good enough. If we add a Duplicate button to the details view, the user can even go back to a previous version and copy that (in case they already did the major changes).
16:47 walterbender garycmartin_: maybe an icon that suggests a duplication in the Journal?
16:48 silbe leaves the exact terminology up to someone with more design experience
16:48 (i.e. one of you)
16:48 walterbender silbe: I would like to see it in the hover menu from the normal Journal view as well
16:49 silbe walterbender: yep, was suggested last week as well. Sounds good to me, as long as it's additional to the one in the details view.
16:49 walterbender silbe: use case: I often take a project and make a copy for forking... doing that from the primary Journal view would save a step or two.
16:49 garycmartin_ walterbender: Yes, we need a new icon for it, use it small in the pop-up palette, and perhaps in the toolbar of the details view.
16:50 walterbender garycmartin_: no reason not have have it appear in both views
16:50 garycmartin_ walterbender: yep, ideally.
16:50 FGrose There was a proposal to provide 'Copy to ...' functionality in a palette menu.
16:50 silbe garycmartin_: a small icon suggesting duplication sounds challenging, do you have any idea yet how it might look like? (I agree on the reasoning, though).
16:51 garycmartin_ silbe: I have a vague image in my mind, but we'd need to iterate through some mockups first.
16:52 walterbender FGrose: we have a send to... and a copy. We could replace copy with copy to... and have clipboard and Journal and perhaps removeable media as options?
16:52 FGrose yes
16:52 silbe garycmartin_: minor detail: Should the two copies ("old" and "new") be identical, or should we change the name like Windows does ("Copy of <title>", "Copy of Copy of <title>" / "Copy 2 of <title>" / "Copy of <title> (2)")?
16:53 walterbender FWIW, in TA, I use <title> snapshot
16:53 FGrose Allow for renaming on feedback
16:53 garycmartin_ silbe: good point!
16:53 walterbender FGrose: since it is a journal object and you are in the journal, the normal renaming mechanism is alreaqdy available
16:54 but you want to know which copy to rename, so any one of silbe's suggestions work for me
16:54 FGrose The proposal was to put in the Frame palette as well
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16:55 walterbender FGrose: that is a bit trickery to implement, since we don';t directly have access to the journal object from the Frame (the same problem I ran into trying to access the journal for writing to the descrition from the Frame)
16:55 FGrose http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/Meetings
16:55 silbe walterbender: I was about to reply that it doesn't matter because the two copies are identical - but then realised they are not: If you have the activity still open, it will modify the "old" entry. So some way to distinguish them would indeed be useful.
16:56 walterbender FGrose: but I think we should think about how to enable unabiguous access the Journal object for activities open on the Frame.
16:57 silbe walterbender: +1, from a technical PoV I'd prefer not to add it to the Frame. Though if you (pl.) agree that it's a good idea from a UI PoV, I'll figure out a way to make it work.
16:59 FGrose One should need to leave an Activity view to duplicate it or copy it to another location, in my opinion.
16:59 walterbender silbe: I am not sure from the user perspective why the Frame instance should behave differently from any other instance
16:59 FGrose should *not* need to ...
16:59 silbe FGrose: then the option in the Journal should be sufficient
17:00 garycmartin_ walterbender: So in Journal we rename 'Copy', to 'Copy to -->' and have a secondary menu that has 'Clippings' as standard, and then other devices if available (like 'My USB stick').
17:00 silbe FGrose: ok. But that still would be solvable by a toolbar button - no need to invoke the Frame.
17:01 walterbender garycmartin_: seems like a straight-foreward approach
17:01 silbe: we didn't come to consensus about whether or not we are removing Keep or replacing Keep with Duplicate on the toolbar
17:02 garycmartin_ walterbender: How about we extend the existing "Send to -->" feature and make it cover all possible "to" destinations (friends and clipboard and devices)?
17:03 silbe walterbender: right. But if we don't offer Duplicate as a toolbar icon, it doesn't make much sense to offer it in the Frame. So either we think it's rare enough and require the user to switch to the Journal first, or we include in the toolbar.
17:03 walterbender garycmartin_: that works too...
17:03 silbe: well, only toolbar space is limited...
17:04 silbe garycmartin_: That submenu might get rather crowded then.
17:06 oops, right click on the preview resumes the instance...
17:07 I was sure we already have "Copy To" with a listing of storage devices, but neither mainline nor Dextrose-3 have it...
17:07 FGrose Activity toolbars seem best for primary actions.  Frame, Journal controls are suited for meta actions.  Perhaps we should strive for that separation.
17:08 garycmartin_ silbe: The Copy in details view shows storage devices, though it was a surprise to me when I saw it.
17:08 silbe FGrose: sounds good to me. And with the proposed "show this instance in the Journal details view" button the Duplicate action would be only one click away (and another to invoke)
17:08 walterbender not sure why it is one place and not the other
17:09 silbe garycmartin_: ah, right - and definitely agree on the surprise factor
17:09 garycmartin_ OK so for me, +1 to remove 'Keep' from activity toolbar, replace it with a button to edit metadata (UI to be discussed separately). Functionality to be added to Journal to allow duplicating of an object (item in palette and toolbar icon in details view).
17:10 walterbender and we worry about the Frame later, if and when we have access to the Journal object...
17:10 garycmartin_ walterbender: yep.
17:11 silbe agreed
17:12 walterbender +1
17:12 FGrose when not if
17:12 garycmartin_ #agree Remove 'Keep' from Activity toolbar, replace it with a tool button to access the metadata details for editing.
17:13 #agree Functionality to be added to Journal to allow duplicating of an object (item in object palette menu and toolbar icon in details view).
17:14 Do we think this is something possible for 0.92? Seems quite a change for that time frame.
17:14 silbe 0.92 is effectively closed
17:15 garycmartin_ silbe: that's that I thought.
17:15 walterbender silbe: asside: I never heard back re Fructose 0.92... that is closed too, I presume
17:15 silbe the only thing that we're waiting for is a revised version of the metadata-on-USB patch
17:15 garycmartin_ silbe: Just that I noticed it was listed under 0.92 in the design meeting wiki.
17:16 OK ready for next topic (0.94 list now)
17:16 silbe garycmartin_: I updated that list a few hours ago.
17:16 garycmartin_ silbe: LOL, so you did, serves me right for keeping so many tabs open ;)
17:17 silbe walterbender: hmm, good question. If you have time after the meeting, we could discuss it on #sugar.
17:17 :)
17:17 garycmartin_ #topic CPU and memory resource indicator for the Frame
17:17 silbe I could've updated it earlier, of course.
17:18 just one question on the old topic:
17:18 garycmartin_ Sure
17:18 silbe Who's going to do the mock-ups? garycmartin_?
17:18 garycmartin_ silbe: yea, will do.
17:18 silbe garycmartin_: thanks!
17:19 ok, so about the next topic. I guess everybody has seen this indicator either in action or on screenshots and knows what it does?
17:20 walterbender yes
17:22 silbe ok. There's one minor design issue still open (sad vs. tired), but more importantly Simon brought up that this indicator is "humanizing" the laptop.
17:22 garycmartin_ OK, so the hot topics on the CPU indicator as I remember are 1) Sad icon for heavy load is a negative emotion, a hard working CPU should not be sad, but busy or hard working. 2) Some technical worries that the way of measuring the load has not been tested on much variety of hardware. 3) Device frame clutter, should it be optional to switch it off?
17:24 Oh and a 4). Will we extend this face to cover other attributes of a system, the obvious one is running low on storage space.
17:24 walterbender We have a general mechanism for showing load use elsewhere: degree of fill in the icon. We use it for the battery, wifi, etc.
17:24 Why introduce a different mechanism unless it adds value?
17:25 so I would vote for no :) :| :(
17:25 garycmartin_ walterbender: So you'd like to see an empty/full visual metaphor for the CPU load?
17:25 silbe walterbender: that's what the indicator does for the individual measurements (CPU, RAM), too. Just the "combined" value is shown as a face
17:26 walterbender what value is added by the face?
17:27 silbe walterbender: Fast indication about whether the computer is busy. I sometimes use it to guess whether some action is still running (=> busy) or has failed without indication (=> idle).
17:27 walterbender why not a warning icon of some sort?
17:27 http://images.google.com/image[…]0&aql=&oq=warning
17:28 silbe walterbender: because being busy is normal. That's what the sad-vs.-tired discussion is about.
17:28 garycmartin_ walterbender: I must admit the face is quite friendly to see, a quick glance to see if all is well. I also think you're right in that we should think to see if a empty/full equavelent could be found.
17:28 FGrose These states could be badged to the cursor like the busy state
17:29 garycmartin_ walterbender: Oooh scary icons!
17:29 FGrose but it meaning could easily be confusing if overused
17:29 walterbender these are less useful... http://images.google.com/image[…]i=g2g-m3&aql=&oq=
17:29 silbe FGrose: I'm not sure that works out well enough with the wide variety of cursor shapes in use by activities and non-Sugar application. But interesting idea nevertheless.
17:30 garycmartin_ walterbender: FWIW we already have some of these as emblem badges.
17:30 walterbender check out these :) http://images.google.com/image[…]f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq=
17:30 silbe this one would be nice for the indicator: http://people.mozilla.com/~faa[…]deOrRiverbank.png
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17:34 FGrose silbe: we could 'flash' the cursor to indicate critical alerts. (alert noticeability another topic.)
17:35 silbe FGrose: another interesting idea, though for a different topic (that would be the Dextrose Feedback implementation; not on the agenda yet).
17:35 garycmartin_ FGrose: Using the cursor is going to be an issue as we move towards touch based HW designs
17:37 silbe ok, so how do we go forward? Do we all agree that having such an indicator in the Frame is a good idea in general? Or is there a better way to indicate that the computer is currently busy?
17:38 FWIW, I'd leave the "busy" cursor to the active activity - so if, say, Browse is rendering a large page while hidden, Write shouldn't show a busy cursor unless it's doing something itself.
17:38 garycmartin_ silbe: I don't think it is a critical UI component, for me it indicates we need better feedback elsewhere.
17:38 (CPU load)
17:39 walterbender I agree with Gary. I am not opposed to having an indicator of CPU load, but wouldn't add any additional meaning to it, e.g., :)
17:39 silbe garycmartin_: I agree in general (i.e. long-term).
17:39 walterbender I would rather land the 0.86 toolbars everywhere, so it is easier to quit activies
17:40 wonders whatever happened to adding a clock to the Frame
17:41 silbe walterbender: that's not an either-or. The indicator work is already done (except for any changes the Design Team agrees on). "Upgrading" all the activities should definitely happen, but is a separate effort.
17:42 garycmartin_ walterbender: frame clock still had design feedback waiting, and issue with power saving auto suspend (clock would be showing the wrong time)
17:42 christianmarcsch <christianmarcsch!~christian@cpe-24-193-242-220.nyc.res.rr.com> has joined #sugar-meeting
17:42 FGrose moods were a way to express consequence to new learners
17:42 silbe walterbender: it's not included in the main Sugar repos, but I use it on all my systems that run Sugar natively.
17:42 christianmarcsch: welcome!
17:42 walterbender silbe: I know... just musing over the Peru build I worked with last week.
17:42 christianmarcsch hi!
17:42 sorry, i thought it was happening earlier
17:42 thought i'd check to see if you were still meeting
17:43 garycmartin_ Hi christianmarcsch!
17:43 silbe christianmarcsch: no worries. You can check the backlog here: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]etings/2011-02-20
17:43 christianmarcsch let me look it over now
17:45 walterbender FGrose: I just don't see how the current schema conveys any consequence of consequence.
17:45 FGrose step 2 would be the alert advisories
17:48 garycmartin_ So... do we agree not to pick up the CPU & resource indicator into Sugar mainline, as it currently stands?
17:50 christianmarcsch would the CPU indicator go in the frame?
17:50 garycmartin_ christianmarcsch: Yes Dextrose already deployed it down in the Device edge
17:50 silbe garycmartin_: FWIW Dextrose will continue shipping the indicator as long as there's no alternative (and I don't see one coming up soon).
17:52 christianmarcsch my 2c: it seems too advanced to go in the frame. would prefer if it were part of an activity (e.g. terminal)
17:53 silbe so IMO the question is whether the indicator is too badly designed or seen as preventing future work to improve the underlying issues.
17:53 garycmartin_ christianmarcsch: Have you seen any screen shots of it? It was wanted in Dextrose to be a quick way for kids and teachers to check if their machine was struggling (perhaps too many activities running, or something not behaving well).
17:54 christianmarcsch garycmartin: would be great to see a screenshot
17:54 i'll do a search on the wiki
17:54 silbe christianmarcsch: you could already type "top" in the Terminal. But that takes a lot of time. The indicator is a nice way to get instant feedback - and at least I do need that quite often. Can't say anything about children as I haven't observed them.
17:54 garycmartin_ christianmarcsch: screen shot, yea I was still looking for one for you ;-)
17:55 satellit_ look at http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/E[…]_files#Trisquel-4.1-sugar  it has it in VB appliance
17:56 silbe http://sascha.silbe.org/tmp/busy-indicator.png
17:57 christianmarcsch silbe: thanks!
17:57 garycmartin_ christianmarcsch: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]ce_monitoring.png
17:57 silbe my XO is current idle, so it's showing the "happy" face
17:57 christianmarcsch garycmartin: thanks, that helps!
17:57 walterbender silbe: I guess my point is that we giving the kids a watered down version of something to the extent that is isn't providing much value... seems like a feature added by engineers
17:57 silbe garycmartin_: ah, even better!
17:58 christianmarcsch walterbender: i agree
17:58 walterbender silbe: on the other hand, maybe the hover menu should just show the output of top
17:58 garycmartin_ christianmarcsch: Here it is in situ http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]Dextrose_main.png
17:58 silbe walterbender: again, I can't say anything about children, but it's useful to me even though I know what all the different things in top mean.
17:58 christianmarcsch is CPU monitoring going to be important for children?
17:59 the implementation seems fine,
17:59 but i'm just wondering if this is advanced functionality that won't be needed my most
17:59 silbe christianmarcsch: in theory no, in practice yes.
17:59 walterbender garycmartin_: that screenshot is obviously not on an XO, since more than 8 activities are open and the CPU is still smiling :P
18:00 silbe maybe we should do a user survey and include questions about the indicator? Whether they know / use it, what they think it does, how useful they consider it to be?
18:00 walterbender well, if we are going to include it, I would like it to lead the learning to the real tools: perhaps clicking on the icon can open a terminal window with Top
18:00 christianmarcsch silbe: i think that's a good idea
18:01 walterbender silbe: easier said than done unless you are only surveying developers :P
18:01 garycmartin_ walterbender:  And there is no cursor showing so it must be running on a top secret high spec touch screen XO-3 ;-)
18:01 silbe if someone designs the questionnaire, I'll try to channel it to actual users
18:02 FGrose Would be good to transfer such a design discussion to a wiki page (Feature or Design proposal) so that issues can be summarized and clarified. The ideas are dispersed too far in mailing lists and irc logs.
18:02 silbe I don't think Afghanistan uses Dextrose, so I'd try to convince someone in Paraguay to do it.
18:03 christianmarcsch garycmartin: sort of a side question about the screenshot, but shouldn't the active instances in the ring be colored?
18:04 garycmartin_ christianmarcsch: Coloured yes, perhaps the alt key is being held down (start new shortcut), otherwise at least the activities showing in the frame should be coloured as they will have at least one Journal entry.
18:04 FGrose christianmarcsch: did the <alt> 1 for the screenshot gray them?
18:04 silbe christianmarcsch: I suppose you're talking about http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]Dextrose_main.png
18:05 christianmarcsch silbe: yes!
18:05 walterbender FGrose: +1
18:05 silbe christianmarcsch: My guess is that the screenshot was taking while pressing <Alt>. <Alt>+Left click starts a new instance, so we uncolor all activities in the ring.
18:05 christianmarcsch FGrose: that would explain it
18:05 walterbender will be back in five minutes
18:06 christianmarcsch thanks, just making sure!
18:06 silbe FGrose: a wiki page might be a good idea, yep.
18:07 FGrose Perhaps standard practice for routine Design discussions....
18:07 silbe side track: Can we replace <Alt>+1 by something else for screenshots? Does anything know where it came from? It clashes with non-Sugar applications like irssi...
18:08 garycmartin_ Can we move on. The CPU widget is clearly not something we can agree on and it's burned though so much time, blocking other possible progress...
18:08 silbe ok
18:08 christianmarcsch have we already talked about the frame clock?
18:08 silbe but let's wait for walterbender to return
18:09 FGrose differ to a wiki page, discussion has been useful
18:09 garycmartin_ christianmarcsch: frame clock is not on the agenda, it was spuriously raised.
18:09 christianmarcsch garycmartin: ok, great.
18:10 silbe garycmartin_: +1 - and I think the issues with the Frame clock are mostly technical in nature.
18:10 christianmarcsch silbe: well, judging from the screenshot i'm not a fan of the design--but i guess we'll save that for another discussion
18:10 garycmartin_ FGrose: FWIW There are long threads about the CPU monitor that also fail to get us to agreement.
18:11 christianmarcsch: re clock, yea Eben provided some good mockup images and text feedback, but that work never landed.
18:12 waiting for walterbender before next topic
18:13 christianmarcsch btw, i met with sean yesterday here in NYC
18:13 silbe christianmarcsch: the Frame clock you mean? Probably a matter of taste. ;)
18:13 christianmarcsch silbe: my only problem is that it extends past the normal icon size
18:14 garycmartin_ christianmarcsch: Hey cool, hope he was keeping well!
18:14 christianmarcsch garycmartin: yes! it was a really nice meeting. we caught up on SoaS, and other things
18:14 i think we'll want to tackle the website again very soon
18:14 it's high time we did a revamp
18:15 silbe christianmarcsch: that makes it easily readable. I don't have a watch, so I often peek on the monitor to check the time.
18:15 garycmartin_ christianmarcsch: +1 to www revamp! :)
18:15 silbe oh, Sean is still with us (SL)? I haven't seen him, heard or read from him in a long time...
18:16 I feared he left the project over some disputes.
18:16 christianmarcsch silbe: he's still with us. though he mentioned the disputes to me.
18:17 silbe christianmarcsch: I'm pleased to hear that.
18:17 garycmartin_ silbe: Yes, he's been re-engaging recently, sl marketing mail list.
18:17 silbe there's still way too much antagonism going on in SL (usually behind the scenes). :-/
18:18 christianmarcsch anyway--
18:18 we were discussing a different approach for the website. more focused on the actual experience, less on the technicalities of the product
18:18 we tried doing this somewhat with v1, but were limited by the materials we had available at that time
18:19 walterbender is back
18:19 christianmarcsch hi walterbender
18:19 walterbender his christianmarcsch
18:19 ^his^hi
18:19 christianmarcsch walterbender: i was just mentioning that i met sean yesterday
18:19 silbe ok, let's continue with the next topic.
18:20 walterbender Sean had said he was going to see you
18:20 christianmarcsch walterbender: yes, it was a great meeting. we talked about tackling a v2 of the website
18:20 garycmartin_ #topic Replace naming alert
18:21 FGrose #action defer CPU indicator proposal review to wiki page
18:22 garycmartin_ 1) switch to Journal detail view 2) option in the activity toolbar to manually add description and tags.
18:22 walterbender garycmartin_: 3) eliminate the auto alert on first launch exit
18:23 garycmartin_ #action defer CPU indicator proposal review to wiki page
18:23 walterbender garycmartin_: I think they already did #3 in Dextrose 2
18:23 garycmartin_ walterbender: +1 to removing the auto naming pop-up, it's a real pain.
18:24 silbe walterbender: confirmed.
18:24 walterbender garycmartin_: even more painful to manually go to the detail view for the same purpose
18:24 silbe Simon also disabled it in the customised build for his school class.
18:25 walterbender garycmartin_: before we begin, let me remind everyone why we had put it there in the first place: we want to encourage the kids to use their journal like a lab notebook: to write about whatever they are doing
18:25 silbe walterbender: that's why I proposed to switch to the Journal details view automatically on exit. Someone (don't remember who) didn't like it because it might be unexpected / confusing to the user.
18:25 garycmartin_ walterbender: I agree, but I don't get the impression folks are using the auto popup. Folks are trying to get out of an activity at that point, they have finished thinking about it and want to do something else.
18:25 walterbender I prefer to switch on demand, not on exit
18:26 I'd like to take notes while I am working on something, not just afterwards
18:26 but the question in my mind is: switch to the detail view or just add a note through a toolbar widget?
18:26 silbe walterbender: maybe we should discuss in the order 1) 2) 3) then?
18:26 garycmartin_ silbe: I'd say auto switching to the Journal detail view as is would be a very confusing context switch.
18:27 walterbender silbe: I think we want to discuss it wholistically and then address 1, 2, 3
18:27 garycmartin_ walterbender "switch on demand, not on exit" +1
18:27 walterbender or maybe not switch at all... just add memos through a simple widget
18:28 we could make the journal button switch to the current activity's detail view
18:28 FGrose We had the concept of Frame chat.. How about Frame notes?
18:28 silbe in theory we agreed to add a button to switch to the details view already earlier in this meeting. ;)
18:28 garycmartin_ walterbender: I'd like to see less code, not more ;) Re-using the details view would give us less bugs to report/fix ;)
18:28 walterbender silbe but not what that behavior would be...
18:29 garycmartin_: agreed, but the context switch is big...
18:29 the resume button in the detail view will help restore context at least
18:29 but it is mixed in with other buttons... maybe it needs to stand on its own?
18:30 garycmartin_ walterbender: I did suggest at one point that the details view should be unbound from the Journal. I should be a dialogue, perhaps like the CP, that anyone can call up (Journal can call it for an object, activities can call it for themselves).
18:30 walterbender maybe the switch to journal button and the resume from detail view buttons can be in the same place on their respective toolbars? far left?
18:30 garycmartin_ walterbender: thus avoiding any context switch to the Journal.
18:31 christianmarcsch garycmartin: that is an interesting idea
18:31 silbe please no modal dialog again...
18:31 christianmarcsch garycmartin: would make a lot of sense. it wouldn't have to be a modal dialog
18:31 walterbender if these dialogs were attached to the Frame, they would not be modal
18:32 silbe a separate window with everything else continuing to work would be ok, but a modal dialog is just painful.
18:32 walterbender but we are full circle back to the Frame needing to know about the current activity
18:32 garycmartin_ christianmarcsch: An it gives us a single chunk of code to worry about, right now we have two different (but similar) UIs in the naming alert and the detail view, both seemingly being worked on separately.
18:32 silbe walterbender: on the contrary: they would be globally modal.
18:33 christianmarcsch garycmartin: yes, and from a design standpoint i could see this being very useful in many cases
18:33 walterbender silbe: actually, in rethinking, putting them on the Frame is orthogonal to modal
18:34 garycmartin_ christianmarcsch: If we had some 3d hw ability, I'd vote for flipping over the activity window so you can edit it's metadata details on the back ;)
18:34 christianmarcsch garycmartin: yes--a nice analog :)
18:35 silbe garycmartin_: +1 - maybe we can do it without the flip effect for now?
18:36 christianmarcsch so, to pick up on garycmartin_'s suggestion
18:36 what if the detail view became another view of the activity itself?
18:36 silbe it would duplicate the Journal details view again, but might be a better experience than the switch to the Journal
18:37 FGrose A per shared activity chat log was proposed from the Frame. The notebook log could be a parallel UI, sliding in from the right Frame linked to your avitar.
18:37 christianmarcsch in the toolbar, we could have an icon to switch to the "properties" or "metadata" view
18:37 silbe christianmarcsch: then we would need to resume an instance in order to edit the metadata.
18:37 walterbender thinks sliding in the Frame would do
18:37 christianmarcsch silbe: perhaps, but from a UI perspective i think it would be most consistent if we combined with the activity in some way
18:37 garycmartin_ silbe: possibly, but the user needs to see the relationship between the toggle (hence a 3d flip being so helpful). Maybe we can find another transition.
18:38 blast, has to leave very soon.
18:38 christianmarcsch another possibility would be to put the functionality in a palette
18:38 silbe christianmarcsch: the problem with that was the limited space available
18:38 christianmarcsch that way you could access it from the activity, but also from the frame, journal, etc.
18:38 silbe: we could design a new, extended palette
18:39 garycmartin_ walterbender: christianmarcsch can I end meeting and let one of you start it up again?
18:39 will have to read the back log later.
18:39 silbe ok, so since garycmartin_ needs to leave, how about you do mock-ups of your ideas for the next meeting?
18:39 christianmarcsch silbe: sure, i can do that
18:39 silbe BTW, when do we meed again?
18:39 walterbender garycmartin_: I need to leave soon too... to be continued next Sunday?
18:40 christianmarcsch let's try for next sunday
18:40 silbe Is next sunday fine or too early?
18:40 garycmartin_ Same time next sunday?
18:40 silbe agreed then
18:40 christianmarcsch that should work for me
18:40 garycmartin_ Fab :-)
18:40 christianmarcsch thanks--talk to you next week!
18:40 i'll have mockups to share
18:40 silbe looking forward to it!
18:40 christianmarcsch: thanks!
18:41 garycmartin_ Thanks all, see you next week! With some mockups hopefully :-)
18:41 silbe garycmartin_: thx again :)
18:41 christianmarcsch has quit IRC
18:41 garycmartin_ #endmeeting
18:41 meeting Meeting ended Sun Feb 20 18:41:27 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
18:41 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-20T16:30:07.html
18:41 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-02-20T16:30:07
18:42 garycmartin_ silbe: Thanks, you too. We're slowly getting through the agenda items.
18:43 silbe garycmartin_: yep. Disadvantage of tackling the easy items first (last week) is that we're now significantly slowing down. But we're still making progress and keep going - awesome!
18:44 I'll update the wiki page to add logs and update the agenda
18:45 garycmartin_ silbe: I think it's good that we pass over the tough ones when needed to make progress else where (i.e. discuss for a while and then move on with others, return at a later date).
18:45 silbe garycmartin_: +1
18:45 garycmartin_ silbe: wiki update, thanks.
18:46 silbe it makes no sense to keep discussing if we can't reach consensus. Much better to not make a decision and revisit in a year or so.
18:46 :-|
18:51 FGrose silbe: garycmartin_ Will Feature pages follow agreements? What is the workflow?
18:53 silbe FGrose: I think this is the current process: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Policy
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