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| 16:00 | garycmartin_ | Hi, anyone here for the design meeting? |
| 16:01 | FGrose | Hi garycmartin_ |
| 16:01 | garycmartin_ | FGrose: Hi! |
| 16:01 | Hmmm, no sign of Christian, Walter or Sascha... | |
| 16:06 | silbe | will join soon |
| 16:07 | walterbender left just a few minutes ago. Maybe trouble witht the internet connection? | |
| 16:07 | and ch | |
| 16:07 | garycmartin_ | FGrose: silbe, will loiter about until half past to see if a few more show up, that OK for you? If no one else shows, best to reschedule for another day. |
| 16:07 | silbe | and christianmarcsch peeked in an hour ago. maybe he'll come back. |
| 16:07 | garycmartin_ | silbe: Hi. |
| 16:08 | FGrose | Fine with me. |
| 16:13 | silbe | Hi everyone! |
| 16:13 | garycmartin_: ok | |
| 16:14 | walterbender <walterbender!~webchatjita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting |
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| 16:16 | silbe | ah, there's walterbender |
| 16:16 | walterbender | silbe: I was here earlier.. thought the meeting was at 9 EST, 14UTC |
| 16:17 | garycmartin_ | walterbender: Hi. |
| 16:17 | walterbender | hi garycmartin_ thanks for keeping the ball rolling re design |
| 16:18 | garycmartin_ | walterbender: do you think Christian will make it back today? |
| 16:18 | walterbender | garycmartin_: he came and went about an hour ago |
| 16:19 | silbe | walterbender: the wiki said 16 UTC. IIRC we only agreed on "about the same time" last week. |
| 16:19 | walterbender | silbe: I realized that after the fact :P |
| 16:19 | silbe | I don't care much for any particular time as long as the meeting is actually happening ;) |
| 16:19 | garycmartin_ | silbe: walterbender: Yea 16:00 UTC was what went out in my email as well. |
| 16:20 | walterbender | admits he is a knuckehead |
| 16:20 | Nubae_away is now known as Nubae | |
| 16:20 | silbe | ah, right: http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ruary/030068.html |
| 16:21 | I'd say we wait until 16:30 UTC for christianmarcsch to join, otherwise we'll start without him. | |
| 16:22 | We should keep going. Christian can still follow up via email if he has additional ideas. | |
| 16:22 | garycmartin_ | silbe: Agreed, I just email pinged him as well. |
| 16:22 | silbe | garycmartin_: great, thanks! |
| 16:30 | garycmartin_ | #startmeeting |
| 16:30 | meeting | Meeting started Sun Feb 20 16:30:07 2011 UTC. The chair is garycmartin_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. |
| 16:30 | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting | |
| 16:30 | garycmartin_ | OK lets start, hopefully Christian might join us later. |
| 16:31 | #topic Remove Keep button from activities, replace with Duplicate function in Journal | |
| 16:32 | walterbender | is that more than a semantic difference> |
| 16:33 | silbe | walterbender: ? |
| 16:33 | walterbender | there is a subtle difference in my mind: keep as it is keeps the same activity ID |
| 16:33 | which means it really isn't a copy | |
| 16:33 | silbe | walterbender: I think that's widely considered a bug. |
| 16:34 | walterbender | I do something slightly different in TA (I added a separate button for keeping a copy with a new ID) |
| 16:34 | garycmartin_ | walterbender: Keep with the same activity ID is a really obtuse behaviour that almost no one realises and trips up many. |
| 16:34 | walterbender | without the saved share info, etc. |
| 16:35 | garycmartin_: agreed. I wanted to make sure that we were doing more than changing the name... sorry for being unclear | |
| 16:35 | (and then I can remove the extra button in TA) | |
| 16:35 | silbe | walterbender: ah, ok. |
| 16:36 | dfarning_afk is now known as dfarning | |
| 16:36 | walterbender | so +1 from me |
| 16:36 | silbe | anyway, the use case for keeping the activity_id is better solved by introducing real version support (which didn't land in 0.92 for OLPC<->AC coordination / synchronisation issues, but will land for 0.94) |
| 16:37 | walterbender | silbe: agreed... |
| 16:37 | silbe | s/issues/reasons/ |
| 16:37 | garycmartin_ | The background story is that many seem to think 'Keep' is the 'Save' button in Sugar, some smaller number see it as a 'make a copy' button, very few seem to spot the 'copy but with the same ID as the original' and usually report it as a bug. |
| 16:37 | walterbender | silbe: I do hope versioning lands some day |
| 16:37 | silbe | walterbender: if we can keep the pace up, 0.94 will get rather interesting. |
| 16:38 | walterbender | garycmartin_: I have also seen people hit it repatedly when they are not getting the behavior they expect from changing the name in the toolbar. (an old race-condition bug that was still lingering in the Peru build) |
| 16:38 | silbe | garycmartin_: nice summary |
| 16:40 | garycmartin_ | silbe: FWIW I keep reading blogs and emails from teachers, tech folks where Keep is clearly being assumed to do something else, some are teaching kids to click it every time you want your work saved, there must be a lot of Journal junk cluttering up those journals :-( |
| 16:41 | silbe | walterbender: so you agree that getting rid of Keep and implementing a Duplicate functionality somewhere in the Journal is a good idea? |
| 16:41 | walterbender | yes |
| 16:41 | garycmartin_ | OK, so if we drop the 'Keep' button, is there any consensus to replacing it with something else (as we have the space), e.g. Journal details metadata editing? |
| 16:41 | walterbender | sounds good to me :) |
| 16:41 | silbe | garycmartin_: :-/ fortunately the 0.84+ data store efficiently saves duplicated data files (though the meta data still takes up a lot of space) |
| 16:42 | walterbender | even designed an icon for that function ages ago :) |
| 16:43 | garycmartin_ | walterbender: FWIW2, the other issue with Keep is that it provided no user feedback so folks had no idea it worked unless they went and looked at the Journal and noticed their activity had beed copied. |
| 16:43 | walterbender | garycmartin_: yes. |
| 16:44 | silbe | garycmartin_: that's another outstanding proposal: Replace the naming dialog with something better (e.g. toolbar button, switch to journal afterwards). I'd suggest to keep (no pun intended) discussing Keep / Duplicate first. Let's just assume for now that we already have that new functionality. |
| 16:44 | (to avoid bouncing back and forth between the two topics) | |
| 16:45 | garycmartin_ | walterbender: Having the details button in the Activity toolbar will hopefully resolve the issues you were having getting at the correct object. |
| 16:45 | walterbender | silbe: It seems we have consensus on removing Keep. Would we "keep" a copy button or put that in the Journal |
| 16:45 | right now, the copy button in the Journal copies to the clipboard, which I find confusing | |
| 16:46 | garycmartin_ | walterbender: I'd go with 'Duplicate' for the wording. |
| 16:47 | silbe | walterbender: Since we auto-save immediately, just in the Journal should be good enough. If we add a Duplicate button to the details view, the user can even go back to a previous version and copy that (in case they already did the major changes). |
| 16:47 | walterbender | garycmartin_: maybe an icon that suggests a duplication in the Journal? |
| 16:48 | silbe | leaves the exact terminology up to someone with more design experience |
| 16:48 | (i.e. one of you) | |
| 16:48 | walterbender | silbe: I would like to see it in the hover menu from the normal Journal view as well |
| 16:49 | silbe | walterbender: yep, was suggested last week as well. Sounds good to me, as long as it's additional to the one in the details view. |
| 16:49 | walterbender | silbe: use case: I often take a project and make a copy for forking... doing that from the primary Journal view would save a step or two. |
| 16:49 | garycmartin_ | walterbender: Yes, we need a new icon for it, use it small in the pop-up palette, and perhaps in the toolbar of the details view. |
| 16:50 | walterbender | garycmartin_: no reason not have have it appear in both views |
| 16:50 | garycmartin_ | walterbender: yep, ideally. |
| 16:50 | FGrose | There was a proposal to provide 'Copy to ...' functionality in a palette menu. |
| 16:50 | silbe | garycmartin_: a small icon suggesting duplication sounds challenging, do you have any idea yet how it might look like? (I agree on the reasoning, though). |
| 16:51 | garycmartin_ | silbe: I have a vague image in my mind, but we'd need to iterate through some mockups first. |
| 16:52 | walterbender | FGrose: we have a send to... and a copy. We could replace copy with copy to... and have clipboard and Journal and perhaps removeable media as options? |
| 16:52 | FGrose | yes |
| 16:52 | silbe | garycmartin_: minor detail: Should the two copies ("old" and "new") be identical, or should we change the name like Windows does ("Copy of <title>", "Copy of Copy of <title>" / "Copy 2 of <title>" / "Copy of <title> (2)")? |
| 16:53 | walterbender | FWIW, in TA, I use <title> snapshot |
| 16:53 | FGrose | Allow for renaming on feedback |
| 16:53 | garycmartin_ | silbe: good point! |
| 16:53 | walterbender | FGrose: since it is a journal object and you are in the journal, the normal renaming mechanism is alreaqdy available |
| 16:54 | but you want to know which copy to rename, so any one of silbe's suggestions work for me | |
| 16:54 | FGrose | The proposal was to put in the Frame palette as well |
| 16:55 | dfarning is now known as dfarning_afk | |
| 16:55 | walterbender | FGrose: that is a bit trickery to implement, since we don';t directly have access to the journal object from the Frame (the same problem I ran into trying to access the journal for writing to the descrition from the Frame) |
| 16:55 | FGrose | http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/Meetings |
| 16:55 | silbe | walterbender: I was about to reply that it doesn't matter because the two copies are identical - but then realised they are not: If you have the activity still open, it will modify the "old" entry. So some way to distinguish them would indeed be useful. |
| 16:56 | walterbender | FGrose: but I think we should think about how to enable unabiguous access the Journal object for activities open on the Frame. |
| 16:57 | silbe | walterbender: +1, from a technical PoV I'd prefer not to add it to the Frame. Though if you (pl.) agree that it's a good idea from a UI PoV, I'll figure out a way to make it work. |
| 16:59 | FGrose | One should need to leave an Activity view to duplicate it or copy it to another location, in my opinion. |
| 16:59 | walterbender | silbe: I am not sure from the user perspective why the Frame instance should behave differently from any other instance |
| 16:59 | FGrose | should *not* need to ... |
| 16:59 | silbe | FGrose: then the option in the Journal should be sufficient |
| 17:00 | garycmartin_ | walterbender: So in Journal we rename 'Copy', to 'Copy to -->' and have a secondary menu that has 'Clippings' as standard, and then other devices if available (like 'My USB stick'). |
| 17:00 | silbe | FGrose: ok. But that still would be solvable by a toolbar button - no need to invoke the Frame. |
| 17:01 | walterbender | garycmartin_: seems like a straight-foreward approach |
| 17:01 | silbe: we didn't come to consensus about whether or not we are removing Keep or replacing Keep with Duplicate on the toolbar | |
| 17:02 | garycmartin_ | walterbender: How about we extend the existing "Send to -->" feature and make it cover all possible "to" destinations (friends and clipboard and devices)? |
| 17:03 | silbe | walterbender: right. But if we don't offer Duplicate as a toolbar icon, it doesn't make much sense to offer it in the Frame. So either we think it's rare enough and require the user to switch to the Journal first, or we include in the toolbar. |
| 17:03 | walterbender | garycmartin_: that works too... |
| 17:03 | silbe: well, only toolbar space is limited... | |
| 17:04 | silbe | garycmartin_: That submenu might get rather crowded then. |
| 17:06 | oops, right click on the preview resumes the instance... | |
| 17:07 | I was sure we already have "Copy To" with a listing of storage devices, but neither mainline nor Dextrose-3 have it... | |
| 17:07 | FGrose | Activity toolbars seem best for primary actions. Frame, Journal controls are suited for meta actions. Perhaps we should strive for that separation. |
| 17:08 | garycmartin_ | silbe: The Copy in details view shows storage devices, though it was a surprise to me when I saw it. |
| 17:08 | silbe | FGrose: sounds good to me. And with the proposed "show this instance in the Journal details view" button the Duplicate action would be only one click away (and another to invoke) |
| 17:08 | walterbender | not sure why it is one place and not the other |
| 17:09 | silbe | garycmartin_: ah, right - and definitely agree on the surprise factor |
| 17:09 | garycmartin_ | OK so for me, +1 to remove 'Keep' from activity toolbar, replace it with a button to edit metadata (UI to be discussed separately). Functionality to be added to Journal to allow duplicating of an object (item in palette and toolbar icon in details view). |
| 17:10 | walterbender | and we worry about the Frame later, if and when we have access to the Journal object... |
| 17:10 | garycmartin_ | walterbender: yep. |
| 17:11 | silbe | agreed |
| 17:12 | walterbender | +1 |
| 17:12 | FGrose | when not if |
| 17:12 | garycmartin_ | #agree Remove 'Keep' from Activity toolbar, replace it with a tool button to access the metadata details for editing. |
| 17:13 | #agree Functionality to be added to Journal to allow duplicating of an object (item in object palette menu and toolbar icon in details view). | |
| 17:14 | Do we think this is something possible for 0.92? Seems quite a change for that time frame. | |
| 17:14 | silbe | 0.92 is effectively closed |
| 17:15 | garycmartin_ | silbe: that's that I thought. |
| 17:15 | walterbender | silbe: asside: I never heard back re Fructose 0.92... that is closed too, I presume |
| 17:15 | silbe | the only thing that we're waiting for is a revised version of the metadata-on-USB patch |
| 17:15 | garycmartin_ | silbe: Just that I noticed it was listed under 0.92 in the design meeting wiki. |
| 17:16 | OK ready for next topic (0.94 list now) | |
| 17:16 | silbe | garycmartin_: I updated that list a few hours ago. |
| 17:16 | garycmartin_ | silbe: LOL, so you did, serves me right for keeping so many tabs open ;) |
| 17:17 | silbe | walterbender: hmm, good question. If you have time after the meeting, we could discuss it on #sugar. |
| 17:17 | :) | |
| 17:17 | garycmartin_ | #topic CPU and memory resource indicator for the Frame |
| 17:17 | silbe | I could've updated it earlier, of course. |
| 17:18 | just one question on the old topic: | |
| 17:18 | garycmartin_ | Sure |
| 17:18 | silbe | Who's going to do the mock-ups? garycmartin_? |
| 17:18 | garycmartin_ | silbe: yea, will do. |
| 17:18 | silbe | garycmartin_: thanks! |
| 17:19 | ok, so about the next topic. I guess everybody has seen this indicator either in action or on screenshots and knows what it does? | |
| 17:20 | walterbender | yes |
| 17:22 | silbe | ok. There's one minor design issue still open (sad vs. tired), but more importantly Simon brought up that this indicator is "humanizing" the laptop. |
| 17:22 | garycmartin_ | OK, so the hot topics on the CPU indicator as I remember are 1) Sad icon for heavy load is a negative emotion, a hard working CPU should not be sad, but busy or hard working. 2) Some technical worries that the way of measuring the load has not been tested on much variety of hardware. 3) Device frame clutter, should it be optional to switch it off? |
| 17:24 | Oh and a 4). Will we extend this face to cover other attributes of a system, the obvious one is running low on storage space. | |
| 17:24 | walterbender | We have a general mechanism for showing load use elsewhere: degree of fill in the icon. We use it for the battery, wifi, etc. |
| 17:24 | Why introduce a different mechanism unless it adds value? | |
| 17:25 | so I would vote for no :) :| :( | |
| 17:25 | garycmartin_ | walterbender: So you'd like to see an empty/full visual metaphor for the CPU load? |
| 17:25 | silbe | walterbender: that's what the indicator does for the individual measurements (CPU, RAM), too. Just the "combined" value is shown as a face |
| 17:26 | walterbender | what value is added by the face? |
| 17:27 | silbe | walterbender: Fast indication about whether the computer is busy. I sometimes use it to guess whether some action is still running (=> busy) or has failed without indication (=> idle). |
| 17:27 | walterbender | why not a warning icon of some sort? |
| 17:27 | http://images.google.com/image[…]0&aql=&oq=warning | |
| 17:28 | silbe | walterbender: because being busy is normal. That's what the sad-vs.-tired discussion is about. |
| 17:28 | garycmartin_ | walterbender: I must admit the face is quite friendly to see, a quick glance to see if all is well. I also think you're right in that we should think to see if a empty/full equavelent could be found. |
| 17:28 | FGrose | These states could be badged to the cursor like the busy state |
| 17:29 | garycmartin_ | walterbender: Oooh scary icons! |
| 17:29 | FGrose | but it meaning could easily be confusing if overused |
| 17:29 | walterbender | these are less useful... http://images.google.com/image[…]i=g2g-m3&aql=&oq= |
| 17:29 | silbe | FGrose: I'm not sure that works out well enough with the wide variety of cursor shapes in use by activities and non-Sugar application. But interesting idea nevertheless. |
| 17:30 | garycmartin_ | walterbender: FWIW we already have some of these as emblem badges. |
| 17:30 | walterbender | check out these :) http://images.google.com/image[…]f&aqi=g1&aql=&oq= |
| 17:30 | silbe | this one would be nice for the indicator: http://people.mozilla.com/~faa[…]deOrRiverbank.png |
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| 17:34 | FGrose | silbe: we could 'flash' the cursor to indicate critical alerts. (alert noticeability another topic.) |
| 17:35 | silbe | FGrose: another interesting idea, though for a different topic (that would be the Dextrose Feedback implementation; not on the agenda yet). |
| 17:35 | garycmartin_ | FGrose: Using the cursor is going to be an issue as we move towards touch based HW designs |
| 17:37 | silbe | ok, so how do we go forward? Do we all agree that having such an indicator in the Frame is a good idea in general? Or is there a better way to indicate that the computer is currently busy? |
| 17:38 | FWIW, I'd leave the "busy" cursor to the active activity - so if, say, Browse is rendering a large page while hidden, Write shouldn't show a busy cursor unless it's doing something itself. | |
| 17:38 | garycmartin_ | silbe: I don't think it is a critical UI component, for me it indicates we need better feedback elsewhere. |
| 17:38 | (CPU load) | |
| 17:39 | walterbender | I agree with Gary. I am not opposed to having an indicator of CPU load, but wouldn't add any additional meaning to it, e.g., :) |
| 17:39 | silbe | garycmartin_: I agree in general (i.e. long-term). |
| 17:39 | walterbender | I would rather land the 0.86 toolbars everywhere, so it is easier to quit activies |
| 17:40 | wonders whatever happened to adding a clock to the Frame | |
| 17:41 | silbe | walterbender: that's not an either-or. The indicator work is already done (except for any changes the Design Team agrees on). "Upgrading" all the activities should definitely happen, but is a separate effort. |
| 17:42 | garycmartin_ | walterbender: frame clock still had design feedback waiting, and issue with power saving auto suspend (clock would be showing the wrong time) |
| 17:42 | christianmarcsch <christianmarcsch!~christiancpe-24-193-242-220.nyc.res.rr.com> has joined #sugar-meeting |
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| 17:42 | FGrose | moods were a way to express consequence to new learners |
| 17:42 | silbe | walterbender: it's not included in the main Sugar repos, but I use it on all my systems that run Sugar natively. |
| 17:42 | christianmarcsch: welcome! | |
| 17:42 | walterbender | silbe: I know... just musing over the Peru build I worked with last week. |
| 17:42 | christianmarcsch | hi! |
| 17:42 | sorry, i thought it was happening earlier | |
| 17:42 | thought i'd check to see if you were still meeting | |
| 17:43 | garycmartin_ | Hi christianmarcsch! |
| 17:43 | silbe | christianmarcsch: no worries. You can check the backlog here: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]etings/2011-02-20 |
| 17:43 | christianmarcsch | let me look it over now |
| 17:45 | walterbender | FGrose: I just don't see how the current schema conveys any consequence of consequence. |
| 17:45 | FGrose | step 2 would be the alert advisories |
| 17:48 | garycmartin_ | So... do we agree not to pick up the CPU & resource indicator into Sugar mainline, as it currently stands? |
| 17:50 | christianmarcsch | would the CPU indicator go in the frame? |
| 17:50 | garycmartin_ | christianmarcsch: Yes Dextrose already deployed it down in the Device edge |
| 17:50 | silbe | garycmartin_: FWIW Dextrose will continue shipping the indicator as long as there's no alternative (and I don't see one coming up soon). |
| 17:52 | christianmarcsch | my 2c: it seems too advanced to go in the frame. would prefer if it were part of an activity (e.g. terminal) |
| 17:53 | silbe | so IMO the question is whether the indicator is too badly designed or seen as preventing future work to improve the underlying issues. |
| 17:53 | garycmartin_ | christianmarcsch: Have you seen any screen shots of it? It was wanted in Dextrose to be a quick way for kids and teachers to check if their machine was struggling (perhaps too many activities running, or something not behaving well). |
| 17:54 | christianmarcsch | garycmartin: would be great to see a screenshot |
| 17:54 | i'll do a search on the wiki | |
| 17:54 | silbe | christianmarcsch: you could already type "top" in the Terminal. But that takes a lot of time. The indicator is a nice way to get instant feedback - and at least I do need that quite often. Can't say anything about children as I haven't observed them. |
| 17:54 | garycmartin_ | christianmarcsch: screen shot, yea I was still looking for one for you ;-) |
| 17:55 | satellit_ | look at http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/E[…]_files#Trisquel-4.1-sugar it has it in VB appliance |
| 17:56 | silbe | http://sascha.silbe.org/tmp/busy-indicator.png |
| 17:57 | christianmarcsch | silbe: thanks! |
| 17:57 | garycmartin_ | christianmarcsch: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]ce_monitoring.png |
| 17:57 | silbe | my XO is current idle, so it's showing the "happy" face |
| 17:57 | christianmarcsch | garycmartin: thanks, that helps! |
| 17:57 | walterbender | silbe: I guess my point is that we giving the kids a watered down version of something to the extent that is isn't providing much value... seems like a feature added by engineers |
| 17:57 | silbe | garycmartin_: ah, even better! |
| 17:58 | christianmarcsch | walterbender: i agree |
| 17:58 | walterbender | silbe: on the other hand, maybe the hover menu should just show the output of top |
| 17:58 | garycmartin_ | christianmarcsch: Here it is in situ http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]Dextrose_main.png |
| 17:58 | silbe | walterbender: again, I can't say anything about children, but it's useful to me even though I know what all the different things in top mean. |
| 17:58 | christianmarcsch | is CPU monitoring going to be important for children? |
| 17:59 | the implementation seems fine, | |
| 17:59 | but i'm just wondering if this is advanced functionality that won't be needed my most | |
| 17:59 | silbe | christianmarcsch: in theory no, in practice yes. |
| 17:59 | walterbender | garycmartin_: that screenshot is obviously not on an XO, since more than 8 activities are open and the CPU is still smiling :P |
| 18:00 | silbe | maybe we should do a user survey and include questions about the indicator? Whether they know / use it, what they think it does, how useful they consider it to be? |
| 18:00 | walterbender | well, if we are going to include it, I would like it to lead the learning to the real tools: perhaps clicking on the icon can open a terminal window with Top |
| 18:00 | christianmarcsch | silbe: i think that's a good idea |
| 18:01 | walterbender | silbe: easier said than done unless you are only surveying developers :P |
| 18:01 | garycmartin_ | walterbender: And there is no cursor showing so it must be running on a top secret high spec touch screen XO-3 ;-) |
| 18:01 | silbe | if someone designs the questionnaire, I'll try to channel it to actual users |
| 18:02 | FGrose | Would be good to transfer such a design discussion to a wiki page (Feature or Design proposal) so that issues can be summarized and clarified. The ideas are dispersed too far in mailing lists and irc logs. |
| 18:02 | silbe | I don't think Afghanistan uses Dextrose, so I'd try to convince someone in Paraguay to do it. |
| 18:03 | christianmarcsch | garycmartin: sort of a side question about the screenshot, but shouldn't the active instances in the ring be colored? |
| 18:04 | garycmartin_ | christianmarcsch: Coloured yes, perhaps the alt key is being held down (start new shortcut), otherwise at least the activities showing in the frame should be coloured as they will have at least one Journal entry. |
| 18:04 | FGrose | christianmarcsch: did the <alt> 1 for the screenshot gray them? |
| 18:04 | silbe | christianmarcsch: I suppose you're talking about http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]Dextrose_main.png |
| 18:05 | christianmarcsch | silbe: yes! |
| 18:05 | walterbender | FGrose: +1 |
| 18:05 | silbe | christianmarcsch: My guess is that the screenshot was taking while pressing <Alt>. <Alt>+Left click starts a new instance, so we uncolor all activities in the ring. |
| 18:05 | christianmarcsch | FGrose: that would explain it |
| 18:05 | walterbender | will be back in five minutes |
| 18:06 | christianmarcsch | thanks, just making sure! |
| 18:06 | silbe | FGrose: a wiki page might be a good idea, yep. |
| 18:07 | FGrose | Perhaps standard practice for routine Design discussions.... |
| 18:07 | silbe | side track: Can we replace <Alt>+1 by something else for screenshots? Does anything know where it came from? It clashes with non-Sugar applications like irssi... |
| 18:08 | garycmartin_ | Can we move on. The CPU widget is clearly not something we can agree on and it's burned though so much time, blocking other possible progress... |
| 18:08 | silbe | ok |
| 18:08 | christianmarcsch | have we already talked about the frame clock? |
| 18:08 | silbe | but let's wait for walterbender to return |
| 18:09 | FGrose | differ to a wiki page, discussion has been useful |
| 18:09 | garycmartin_ | christianmarcsch: frame clock is not on the agenda, it was spuriously raised. |
| 18:09 | christianmarcsch | garycmartin: ok, great. |
| 18:10 | silbe | garycmartin_: +1 - and I think the issues with the Frame clock are mostly technical in nature. |
| 18:10 | christianmarcsch | silbe: well, judging from the screenshot i'm not a fan of the design--but i guess we'll save that for another discussion |
| 18:10 | garycmartin_ | FGrose: FWIW There are long threads about the CPU monitor that also fail to get us to agreement. |
| 18:11 | christianmarcsch: re clock, yea Eben provided some good mockup images and text feedback, but that work never landed. | |
| 18:12 | waiting for walterbender before next topic | |
| 18:13 | christianmarcsch | btw, i met with sean yesterday here in NYC |
| 18:13 | silbe | christianmarcsch: the Frame clock you mean? Probably a matter of taste. ;) |
| 18:13 | christianmarcsch | silbe: my only problem is that it extends past the normal icon size |
| 18:14 | garycmartin_ | christianmarcsch: Hey cool, hope he was keeping well! |
| 18:14 | christianmarcsch | garycmartin: yes! it was a really nice meeting. we caught up on SoaS, and other things |
| 18:14 | i think we'll want to tackle the website again very soon | |
| 18:14 | it's high time we did a revamp | |
| 18:15 | silbe | christianmarcsch: that makes it easily readable. I don't have a watch, so I often peek on the monitor to check the time. |
| 18:15 | garycmartin_ | christianmarcsch: +1 to www revamp! :) |
| 18:15 | silbe | oh, Sean is still with us (SL)? I haven't seen him, heard or read from him in a long time... |
| 18:16 | I feared he left the project over some disputes. | |
| 18:16 | christianmarcsch | silbe: he's still with us. though he mentioned the disputes to me. |
| 18:17 | silbe | christianmarcsch: I'm pleased to hear that. |
| 18:17 | garycmartin_ | silbe: Yes, he's been re-engaging recently, sl marketing mail list. |
| 18:17 | silbe | there's still way too much antagonism going on in SL (usually behind the scenes). :-/ |
| 18:18 | christianmarcsch | anyway-- |
| 18:18 | we were discussing a different approach for the website. more focused on the actual experience, less on the technicalities of the product | |
| 18:18 | we tried doing this somewhat with v1, but were limited by the materials we had available at that time | |
| 18:19 | walterbender | is back |
| 18:19 | christianmarcsch | hi walterbender |
| 18:19 | walterbender | his christianmarcsch |
| 18:19 | ^his^hi | |
| 18:19 | christianmarcsch | walterbender: i was just mentioning that i met sean yesterday |
| 18:19 | silbe | ok, let's continue with the next topic. |
| 18:20 | walterbender | Sean had said he was going to see you |
| 18:20 | christianmarcsch | walterbender: yes, it was a great meeting. we talked about tackling a v2 of the website |
| 18:20 | garycmartin_ | #topic Replace naming alert |
| 18:21 | FGrose | #action defer CPU indicator proposal review to wiki page |
| 18:22 | garycmartin_ | 1) switch to Journal detail view 2) option in the activity toolbar to manually add description and tags. |
| 18:22 | walterbender | garycmartin_: 3) eliminate the auto alert on first launch exit |
| 18:23 | garycmartin_ | #action defer CPU indicator proposal review to wiki page |
| 18:23 | walterbender | garycmartin_: I think they already did #3 in Dextrose 2 |
| 18:23 | garycmartin_ | walterbender: +1 to removing the auto naming pop-up, it's a real pain. |
| 18:24 | silbe | walterbender: confirmed. |
| 18:24 | walterbender | garycmartin_: even more painful to manually go to the detail view for the same purpose |
| 18:24 | silbe | Simon also disabled it in the customised build for his school class. |
| 18:25 | walterbender | garycmartin_: before we begin, let me remind everyone why we had put it there in the first place: we want to encourage the kids to use their journal like a lab notebook: to write about whatever they are doing |
| 18:25 | silbe | walterbender: that's why I proposed to switch to the Journal details view automatically on exit. Someone (don't remember who) didn't like it because it might be unexpected / confusing to the user. |
| 18:25 | garycmartin_ | walterbender: I agree, but I don't get the impression folks are using the auto popup. Folks are trying to get out of an activity at that point, they have finished thinking about it and want to do something else. |
| 18:25 | walterbender | I prefer to switch on demand, not on exit |
| 18:26 | I'd like to take notes while I am working on something, not just afterwards | |
| 18:26 | but the question in my mind is: switch to the detail view or just add a note through a toolbar widget? | |
| 18:26 | silbe | walterbender: maybe we should discuss in the order 1) 2) 3) then? |
| 18:26 | garycmartin_ | silbe: I'd say auto switching to the Journal detail view as is would be a very confusing context switch. |
| 18:27 | walterbender | silbe: I think we want to discuss it wholistically and then address 1, 2, 3 |
| 18:27 | garycmartin_ | walterbender "switch on demand, not on exit" +1 |
| 18:27 | walterbender | or maybe not switch at all... just add memos through a simple widget |
| 18:28 | we could make the journal button switch to the current activity's detail view | |
| 18:28 | FGrose | We had the concept of Frame chat.. How about Frame notes? |
| 18:28 | silbe | in theory we agreed to add a button to switch to the details view already earlier in this meeting. ;) |
| 18:28 | garycmartin_ | walterbender: I'd like to see less code, not more ;) Re-using the details view would give us less bugs to report/fix ;) |
| 18:28 | walterbender | silbe but not what that behavior would be... |
| 18:29 | garycmartin_: agreed, but the context switch is big... | |
| 18:29 | the resume button in the detail view will help restore context at least | |
| 18:29 | but it is mixed in with other buttons... maybe it needs to stand on its own? | |
| 18:30 | garycmartin_ | walterbender: I did suggest at one point that the details view should be unbound from the Journal. I should be a dialogue, perhaps like the CP, that anyone can call up (Journal can call it for an object, activities can call it for themselves). |
| 18:30 | walterbender | maybe the switch to journal button and the resume from detail view buttons can be in the same place on their respective toolbars? far left? |
| 18:30 | garycmartin_ | walterbender: thus avoiding any context switch to the Journal. |
| 18:31 | christianmarcsch | garycmartin: that is an interesting idea |
| 18:31 | silbe | please no modal dialog again... |
| 18:31 | christianmarcsch | garycmartin: would make a lot of sense. it wouldn't have to be a modal dialog |
| 18:31 | walterbender | if these dialogs were attached to the Frame, they would not be modal |
| 18:32 | silbe | a separate window with everything else continuing to work would be ok, but a modal dialog is just painful. |
| 18:32 | walterbender | but we are full circle back to the Frame needing to know about the current activity |
| 18:32 | garycmartin_ | christianmarcsch: An it gives us a single chunk of code to worry about, right now we have two different (but similar) UIs in the naming alert and the detail view, both seemingly being worked on separately. |
| 18:32 | silbe | walterbender: on the contrary: they would be globally modal. |
| 18:33 | christianmarcsch | garycmartin: yes, and from a design standpoint i could see this being very useful in many cases |
| 18:33 | walterbender | silbe: actually, in rethinking, putting them on the Frame is orthogonal to modal |
| 18:34 | garycmartin_ | christianmarcsch: If we had some 3d hw ability, I'd vote for flipping over the activity window so you can edit it's metadata details on the back ;) |
| 18:34 | christianmarcsch | garycmartin: yes--a nice analog :) |
| 18:35 | silbe | garycmartin_: +1 - maybe we can do it without the flip effect for now? |
| 18:36 | christianmarcsch | so, to pick up on garycmartin_'s suggestion |
| 18:36 | what if the detail view became another view of the activity itself? | |
| 18:36 | silbe | it would duplicate the Journal details view again, but might be a better experience than the switch to the Journal |
| 18:37 | FGrose | A per shared activity chat log was proposed from the Frame. The notebook log could be a parallel UI, sliding in from the right Frame linked to your avitar. |
| 18:37 | christianmarcsch | in the toolbar, we could have an icon to switch to the "properties" or "metadata" view |
| 18:37 | silbe | christianmarcsch: then we would need to resume an instance in order to edit the metadata. |
| 18:37 | walterbender | thinks sliding in the Frame would do |
| 18:37 | christianmarcsch | silbe: perhaps, but from a UI perspective i think it would be most consistent if we combined with the activity in some way |
| 18:37 | garycmartin_ | silbe: possibly, but the user needs to see the relationship between the toggle (hence a 3d flip being so helpful). Maybe we can find another transition. |
| 18:38 | blast, has to leave very soon. | |
| 18:38 | christianmarcsch | another possibility would be to put the functionality in a palette |
| 18:38 | silbe | christianmarcsch: the problem with that was the limited space available |
| 18:38 | christianmarcsch | that way you could access it from the activity, but also from the frame, journal, etc. |
| 18:38 | silbe: we could design a new, extended palette | |
| 18:39 | garycmartin_ | walterbender: christianmarcsch can I end meeting and let one of you start it up again? |
| 18:39 | will have to read the back log later. | |
| 18:39 | silbe | ok, so since garycmartin_ needs to leave, how about you do mock-ups of your ideas for the next meeting? |
| 18:39 | christianmarcsch | silbe: sure, i can do that |
| 18:39 | silbe | BTW, when do we meed again? |
| 18:39 | walterbender | garycmartin_: I need to leave soon too... to be continued next Sunday? |
| 18:40 | christianmarcsch | let's try for next sunday |
| 18:40 | silbe | Is next sunday fine or too early? |
| 18:40 | garycmartin_ | Same time next sunday? |
| 18:40 | silbe | agreed then |
| 18:40 | christianmarcsch | that should work for me |
| 18:40 | garycmartin_ | Fab :-) |
| 18:40 | christianmarcsch | thanks--talk to you next week! |
| 18:40 | i'll have mockups to share | |
| 18:40 | silbe | looking forward to it! |
| 18:40 | christianmarcsch: thanks! | |
| 18:41 | garycmartin_ | Thanks all, see you next week! With some mockups hopefully :-) |
| 18:41 | silbe | garycmartin_: thx again :) |
| 18:41 | christianmarcsch has quit IRC | |
| 18:41 | garycmartin_ | #endmeeting |
| 18:41 | meeting | Meeting ended Sun Feb 20 18:41:27 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4) |
| 18:41 | Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-20T16:30:07.html | |
| 18:41 | Log: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-02-20T16:30:07 | |
| 18:42 | garycmartin_ | silbe: Thanks, you too. We're slowly getting through the agenda items. |
| 18:43 | silbe | garycmartin_: yep. Disadvantage of tackling the easy items first (last week) is that we're now significantly slowing down. But we're still making progress and keep going - awesome! |
| 18:44 | I'll update the wiki page to add logs and update the agenda | |
| 18:45 | garycmartin_ | silbe: I think it's good that we pass over the tough ones when needed to make progress else where (i.e. discuss for a while and then move on with others, return at a later date). |
| 18:45 | silbe | garycmartin_: +1 |
| 18:45 | garycmartin_ | silbe: wiki update, thanks. |
| 18:46 | silbe | it makes no sense to keep discussing if we can't reach consensus. Much better to not make a decision and revisit in a year or so. |
| 18:46 | :-| | |
| 18:51 | FGrose | silbe: garycmartin_ Will Feature pages follow agreements? What is the workflow? |
| 18:53 | silbe | FGrose: I think this is the current process: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Policy |
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![http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]ce_monitoring.png](http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Dextrose_resource_monitoring.png){kind=link}
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