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#sugar, 2010-06-15

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All times shown according to UTC.

Time Nick Message
12:08 mchua ...well, I'll get the logs afterwards in any case. :)
12:08 I'm going to think out loud here.
12:08 #link https://sites.google.com/a/lv5[…]ementationtoxoirc
12:08 #info ^^ blog post with questions
12:08 Oh. There we go! Yay meetbot!
12:08 All right.
12:09 walterbender pgf: I think I have the Measure problem worked out... it is partly as you suggested: a confusion of the mute/unmute settings
12:09 pgf: and partly a matter of setting the bias properly
12:09 pgf oh, really?  i had convinced myself i was wrong about that.
12:09 mchua nhacbv: Ok - a few things I think of first when reading your post (we'll get to the code in a moment)
12:09 nhacbv: (1) where should I be keeping track of the work I'm doing?
12:09 nhacbv: (2) where should I be asking the questions I have?
12:10 pgf walterbender: i thought i was wrong because the mute control in alsamixer seems to do the right thing with the mic light.
12:10 walterbender pgf: I gathered some log files from some old systems and demonstrated to myself that the new code was using the voltage settings when it meant to be using resistive values
12:10 pgf and its behavior matches the mixer's vref control in build 802.
12:10 mchua nhacbv: Because I (Mel) don't know everything either - I've never written anything that interacted with the Journal - so where I'm starting is walking you through how I'd ask the questions, and *then* we'll dive into the code and see what we can see.
12:10 nhacbv: so (1), in my mind is Trac.
12:10 nhacbv: You're working on a feature that's off a trac ticket - which is good - if there wasn't a ticket for it, I'd create one.
12:11 pgf walterbender: so, you think the driver is doing the right thing, everywhere?
12:11 nhacbv mchua: well, I was hoping we could start with getting the data needed for the journal,
12:11 not the journal itself yet.
12:11 walterbender pgf: I'll do some further invstigation/fine-tuning, but I did manage to get it to work, so the driver is not the problem
12:11 nhacbv mchua: there isn't?
12:11 mchua nhacbv: Reason being is that these tickets are where we keep our notes for development, for everything we're doing to try and make a specific feature work.
12:11 nhacbv: There is - it's the ticket you first started looking at when you started coding, http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/581
12:12 walterbender pgf: I better check again on F11, but I think the problem was in Measure, not the driver
12:12 pgf walterbender: okay.  but be sure there are no inversions in the controls, or anything like that.  i.e., you might have gotten it to work, but the driver could still be at fault.
12:12 mchua nhacbv: (basically, I'm focusing less on fixing the specific code bug right now, and trying to teach you how to work as a developer in an open source community, using this as an example)
12:12 walterbender pgf: will do...
12:12 pgf walterbender: thanks!
12:12 mchua nhacbv: (it may take more time, but if we get through this, you'll know how to work on *any* piece of code in any FOSS community)
12:12 nhacbv mchua: ok
12:13 mchua nhacbv: (it's more about how and where to ask than it is memorizing specific bits of esoteric code - teachers say stuff like "learning how to learn" sometimes, so... this is it.)
12:13 nhacbv: Ok. So, first, I'd be looking at the ticket and writing in the ticket, http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/581, in order to keep track of my dev work.
12:13 nhacbv: Right now, if you look at http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/581, there's no indication anyone is working on it.
12:14 nhacbv: So what I want you to do is log into trac, take that ticket from me, and then basically copy-paste the text from your blog post into it, because that's the update on what you're doing.
12:16 nhacbv mchua: so I just post in the add/change box and submit right?
12:16 mchua nhacbv: Yep.
12:17 nhacbv: Ok - I see your change... I'm going to reassign the ticket to you.
12:17 nhacbv mchua: ok
12:18 mchua nhacbv: (you could also have taken the ticket yourself, I think, but this works also - I'm going to the "Action" box right above the "submit" button and doing "reassign to bvuong").
12:18 nhacbv: I also added myself to the cc list, so I'll keep watching the changes that are made to the ticket.
12:19 nhacbv: Now that you own the ticket, you'll get bugmail for it - so anytime someone else writes a comment on that ticket, you'll get that in an email.
12:19 nhacbv: (you'd also get it in an email if you were on the cc list, which is why i added myself too.)
12:19 nhacbv mchua: ok
12:19 mchua nhacbv: and that's also why we try to keep track of our dev work in tickets - that way, people working on the same problem have the same place to go to share notes, so we don't redo each other's work.
12:19 nhacbv: (stop me if I'm being too pedantic ;)
12:20 nhacbv mchua: nah, it's good to know all this
12:20 lfaraone mchua: poke. see my PM.
12:20 mchua lfaraone: I'm in the middle of something at the moment, is this urgent?
12:20 lfaraone mchua: eh, not really. I'm giving a presentation in 1h30 about a data chart which has that in it :D
12:20 mchua nhacbv: The next thing I'd do is find the right place to ask the questions you have about that ticket - because the more eyes you can get on it, the better the chance that you'll get someone who can solve your specific problem
12:21 nhacbv: so, you're already asking in this channel, which is great... but as it turns out, the folks who know the answer (if they're out there) haven't been reading it at the same time
12:21 nhacbv: probably because they're in a different timezone, or at work, or something of the sort.
12:21 nhacbv: so we'll mail that to the sugar-devel list. I'll draft the email with you. One sec.
12:22 nhacbv mchua: I see
12:23 mchua trying to open up one of the public etherpad servers here
12:24 nhacbv: ok, go to http://sync.in/tEc56sE3Uv
12:24 we'll write that note together.
12:29 nhacbv mchua: what else should we add though?
12:34 mchua nhacbv: The note as it stands looks good to me now, ready to ship :)
12:34 nhacbv mchua: alright
12:34 I guess I should remove your annotations?
12:35 mchua nhacbv: Yeah :)
12:35 #link http://sync.in/ep/pad/view/tEc56sE3Uv/latest
12:35 #info ^^ the letter we wrote, annotaed to explain why we wrote it that way
12:37 nhacbv: lemme know when you've sent it - see if you can find the message in the sugar-devel archives, and shoot me the link
12:37 nhacbv: brb, I'm going to grab some food real quick
12:40 nhacbv mchua: I emailed the sugar-devel
13:03 mchua nhacbv: Nice. And while i was out getting lunch, walterbender and bemasc gave far more useful email replies than I would have been able to give you. :)
13:03 nhacbv: do their comments make sense?
13:04 mtd looks forward to another flame-fest on multiple activity instances http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]-June/011126.html
13:13 nhacbv mchua: they do. :D
13:13 mchua nhacbv: Awesome!
13:13 nhacbv: And those are far better answers than i could have given you, because I know *nothing* about the Journal (though in a few hours of tinkering around the code together, we probably could have figured something out, or at least gotten stuck in a different place. ;)
13:14 nhacbv: but now you know how to ask your questions when you have them - and you don't have to wait for me to unstick you.
13:14 nhacbv: that having been said, we should probably do pair programming at some point. :)
13:14 nhacbv mchua: that would be good
13:14 mchua walterbender: I may be missing something... is there a view-source button in Abacus? I can't find anything.
13:16 car|0s bernie, 1276621140.184315 ERROR dbus.proxies: Introspect error on org.freedesktop.ohm:/org/freedesktop/ohm/Keystore: dbus.exceptions.DBusException: org.freedesktop.DBus.Error.ServiceUnknown: The name org.freedesktop.ohm was not provided by any .service files
13:16 bernie pgf: ^^^^ do we perhaps miss a patch for powerd support in sugar 0.88?
13:17 unmadindu: ^^^^ same question
13:27 unmadindu bernie: IIRC, the two codes should be the same - a diff of the power cpanel section might be helpful
13:34 bernie unmadindu: does powerd still use the org.freedesktop.ohm service name?
13:35 unmadindu: or are we sending that message just in case?
13:35 aa: tch and I made good good progress on the <Alt>Tab bug
13:36 aa: metacity does *not* really unregister the keyhandlers when told to do so by metacity-message disable-keybindings
13:37 aa bernie: that sounds like a bug, did you report it?
13:37 m_anish aa, ping!
13:38 aa m_anish: pong :)
13:38 m_anish aa, :)
13:38 bernie aa: I'm talking with the gnome folks
13:38 aa: judging from the code, it seems by design: they just stop processing the handlers with a flag.
13:39 m_anish aa, you recently submitted a patch that raises ValueError when an entry without a file is copied to a removable device ...
13:40 aa, How do I reproduce it... I'm dragging a generic activity icon (probably without a file) and getting TypeError instead!
13:40 aa, http://dpaste.org/F6S2/
13:40 aa m_anish: I just fixed an unintended exception, the code to raise ValueError was already there
13:41 m_anish: that's what I fixed, have you applied my patch?
13:42 m_anish aa, ohh :) now I see your patch email ... I thought it was applied to the mainline
13:42 aa, sorry
13:43 pgf bernie: powerd doesn't use dbus at all.
13:44 it's possible that some apps are still querying ohmd first, then falling back to powerd.
13:44 olpc-update does that, for instance.
13:45 unmadindu bernie, pgf: yes - IIRC, the cpanel extension code tries to support both powerd and ohmd
13:45 bernie alsroot: you may be interested  in the metacity keybindings thing above
13:46 pgf, unmadindu: then we can ignore the warning, I guess. unless there's a way to prevent it
13:46 it would be nice to keep our logs clean of spurious messages so we can notice real problems easily
13:47 m_anish aa, works! sorry for bugging you
13:47 aa m_anish: No problem!. Looking forward to those patches :)
13:50 m_anish aa, I'm done with the changes you suggested... i'll git-send-email
13:54 pgf bernie: unmadindu: if there's a way to suppress that error, i'd be all for it.
13:55 m_anish aa, s/data-ioerror/volume-error/ is it fine?  I can't think up of any alternative name :-)
13:55 althought data-ioerror isn't the best name
13:55 s/althought/although
13:56 aa m_anish: what's wrong with just 'error'? or 'exception'?
13:56 m_anish aa, doesn't it have to be descriptive? (i'm not really sure)
13:57 aa, both are fine by me
13:57 aa m_anish: I dont have strong feelings either way, I was just being a PITA :P
13:58 mchua walterbender: I'm going to be using Abacus (again) as an Activity-hacking walkthrough, so I'm going to make a posse-mainline branch so you don't get lots of noise in yours
13:58 walterbender: we'll clean up after ourselves
13:59 walterbender: If the noise gets bad despite my efforts to contain it, let me know and we'll back off.
14:00 unmadindu pgf: it looks like sugar 0.88 still has the "extreme" power management stuff lying around, and that seems to be causing the errors. do we still need it ?
14:01 pgf unmadindu: i thought extreme power management was network kill.  is that right?
14:02 unmadindu pgf: that's what I _think_ - the code flips something in ohmd's dbus service
14:03 pgf unmadindu: there are other issues with that -- i.e., rfkill doesn't work (i don't think) on xo-1.  but i think you're right that extreme power management used to talk to ohm, and it can't anymore.
14:03 bernie unmadindu: if you send me the 0.84 patch I'll apply it to my 0.88 packages
14:03 unmadindu: maybe also cc sugar-devel so we remember
14:04 unmadindu: actually, if you're aware of other patches we might have lost upstream, please send all of them my way
14:04 unmadindu: I don't want to ship 0.88 with regressions that were fixed in 0.84 :-)
14:04 unmadindu bernie: yeah - but we need to figure out how the extreme power management affects XO-1 machines.
14:05 runs for dinner - will be back in half an hour
14:06 silbe bernie: I'm going to map http[s]://bugs*.sugarlabs.org/images/ to http[s]://www.sugarlabs.org/images/ (to avoid the "https page contains http inclusions" scary warning). Is using Alias with the on-disk path fine or should I use mod_rewrite? I.e. is the on-disk path of www.sugarlabs.org/images/ likely to change in the future?
14:12 bernie silbe: metacity -c looks *beautiful* on the XO-1.5!
14:12 silbe bernie: what does it do?
14:13 bernie unmadindu: extreme pm turns on/off wifi on suspend, right? so it might actually *improve* thinks on the XO-1 :-)
14:13 silbe: Alias cannot cross hostnames, iirc
14:14 silbe: and rewrite would not do what you want: to the browser, it would still look like the request is for the original url
14:14 silbe bernie: I'm using Alias with an on-disk path; that works fine.
14:14 bernie silbe: trac should be generating the correct url right from the start, I think
14:14 silbe bernie: that's exactly what I want :)
14:14 bernie silbe: ah, yes! that would work
14:15 silbe bernie: the URL is hardcoded in trac.ini, so it's either http or https, both are problematic if included on the other one: http on https gives a warning, and https on http will cause the image to be dropped on browsers that lack the CAcert certificate.
14:16 bernie: so what I'm doing is make the link relative and telling Apache to look for it somewhere else
14:16 having everything on a single server has it's advantages, for sure :)
14:19 bernie silbe: does the url need to be absolute?
14:19 m_anish aa, patch sent
14:20 aa, btw http://people.sugarlabs.org/~tch/ is a real PITA, courtesy tch
14:20 :)
14:21 silbe bernie: it's included on every page and Trac doesn't do anything fancy with it AFAIK, so yes, it needs to be absolute (so the "relative" above wasn't correct, I meant "using the path only", i.e. leave out protocol and server name).
14:21 pgf bernie: extreme pm on xo-1 works via ohmd, so it has to change.
14:22 m_anish : back in 5 mins
14:22 aa m_anish: hahah
14:26 m_anish back
14:28 chrowe bernie: ping re: mailman archives
14:32 bernie chrowe: ah yeah, sorry
14:33 chrowe: mailman's archiver (pipermail) does something odd: when the archives are private, you only get the private dir
14:33 chrowe: when they are public, it adds a symlink to the private directory
14:33 chrowe bernie: right, I figured that out
14:33 bernie: and the links are there
14:33 bernie chrowe: authentication is only required in the private path
14:34 chrowe bernie: but there is no public path that works
14:38 bernie chrowe: ah, maybe I get it: our apache vhost config does not enable symlinks!
14:38 chrowe bernie: it claims to
14:38 bernie chrowe: ah :-(
14:39 chrowe: maybe there's another .htaccess file somewhere in the mailman dir?
14:40 chrowe bernie: meaning we would have to remove "AllowOverride None"
14:41 bernie: it seems like non of the Alias' are working
14:42 bernie chrowe: hmm.... I'm not logged in. are you looking at the lists.sugarlabs.org conf file?
14:42 chrowe bernie: no
14:43 bernie: the Vhost file
14:43 bernie: /etc/apache2/sites-available-ole/lists.ole.org
14:44 bernie: the other strange thing is that even though the list is set to have public archives, the link on the listinfo page points to the private archives
14:58 bernie chrowe: yeah, this is the normal behavior of mailman
14:58 chrowe: the private dir exists in both cases, and the link exists only if the archives are public
14:59 chrowe: what does the access log say when you try to access the archives?
14:59 chrowe: damn the office uplink is hosed, can't do any useful work in ssh
15:02 chrowe bernie: File does not exist: /var/lib/mailman/archives/public/b
15:02 olivia_lists.ole.org
15:26 bernie <halfline> bernie: you could set GCONF_DEFAULT_SOURCE_PATH that points to a sugar specific gconf path file which has a read-only mandatory override source and an include /etc/gconf/2/path
15:26 tomeu, silbe: why don't we just do this in sugar?
15:27 rather than using gconf-dbus and playing dirty tricks to make metacity ungrab keys?
15:28 silbe bernie: do what in Sugar, exactly?
15:29 bernie silbe: use GCONF_DEFAULT_SOURCE_PATH
15:29 silbe tomeu: who do I need to bugger if I'd like a binary file (cert8.db) in Browse to be changed? Sending a patch to the mailing list won't do much good since there's no text diff.
15:30 bernie: context?
15:30 bernie silbe: I'm debugging the issue in which metacity does not let go alt-tab on the XO-1
15:31 silbe: the metacity maints recommended me to change the gconf keys instead, which was the old way of doing it
15:31 silbe: we switched to metacity-message to avoid interfering with gnome
15:31 silbe bernie: the interaction between metacity and Sugar is voodoo to me - setting gconf values from Sugar to influence metacity seems... wrong.
15:31 bernie silbe: anyway, why couldn't we use GCONF_DEFAULT_SOURCE_PATH to keep sugar's gconf independent from gnome?
15:32 silbe: not from sugar, from the script that launches both metacity and sugar
15:32 silbe: which is wrongly called "sugar"
15:32 silbe bernie: that's "sugar" :-P
15:32 bernie silbe: it should have been called sugar-session
15:33 silbe maybe we should call it startsugar, similar to startxfce and startkde (if I remember the names correctly)
15:33 bernie: sugar-session is called by sugar already :-P
15:33 bernie silbe: I'm talking about /usr/bin/sugar which is a shell script launching metacity and then sugar-session (which is an unfortunate name for sugar-shell)
15:34 silbe: naming issues apart, what prevented us from using GCONF_DEFAULT_SOURCE_PATH to move .gconf into the sugar profile?
15:34 silbe bernie: we should definitely rename sugar-emulator, BTW. I can read between the lines of some mailing list posts that it confuses users.
15:35 bernie: no idea - I tried to stay away from that part of code so far because I don't understand why it works that way.
15:39 bernie tch: scp robbie:~bernie/src/fedora/metacit​y/devel/ungrab-keybindings.patch .
15:39 silbe: indeed
15:39 silbe: let's wait for tomeu to comment on it
15:40 silbe bernie: +1
15:42 bernie: would you mind voting on https://bugzilla.redhat.com/sh[…]bug.cgi?id=474549 , please? It's about including the CAcert root cert in Fedora.
15:43 anyone else is invited to vote on that page as well, of course. :)
15:54 bernie: so much for tomeu today :-/
16:08 bernie silbe: will vote, but CAcerts has historically had bad luck with bugs like this
16:10 silbe bernie: yeah, but I still hope it'll work out one day (there's slow, but steady improvement on the CAcert side). Until then we should just recommend people to use Debian :-P
16:12 bernie: I've added CAcert to Browse (we already ship the OLPC root cert), but I don't know how to get it "upstream" (it's officially "unmaintained").
16:13 bernie silbe: speaking of which, do you know how to create tabs in Browse?
16:13 silbe: I see no obvious way to do it
16:14 silbe: you could become the maintainer, as far as I'm concerned.
16:14 silbe: I'm sure erikos (the old maintainer) wouldn't mind
16:14 walterbender bernie: they get created for you upon opening a link with a target
16:14 bernie: but there is no UI for adding one otherwise
16:15 bernie walterbender: only in this case? wow... it's not as useful as I thought
16:16 walterbender bernie: actually, it is a huge improvement over no tabs
16:16 silbe bernie: I'd rather suggest lucian instead. I know nothing about Browse. I found out how to manipulate the cert storage by reading some manpage-like web page an hour ago.
16:17 Though I have to admit I recently looked at the Browse source - "switch to Journal" doesn't work in the version support branch, even with the new compatibility code in sugar-datastore.
16:18 bernie: It would be nice if someone could transplant tabs support from Terminal to Browse. And no, I'm certainly not volunteering. ;)
16:19 bernie silbe: lucian said he won't maintain the old Browse and will switch it to the new web wrapper this summer
16:19 lucian bernie: that's the plan yes
16:19 bernie silbe: so there's a lot of room for an interim maintainer who would help us fix bugs
16:19 silbe bernie: as long as the "new" Browse gets released instead of the "old" Browse that's wonderful news :-P
16:19 lucian bernie: i should get browse to work with webwrap + hulahop by the end of the week
16:20 bernie silbe: I guess it will take some time for the new browse to replace the old one... it's a non-trivial and quite critical component
16:20 lucian: that's fantastic news, I'll be the first one to test it
16:20 silbe lucian: BTW, can you include the CAcert root certificates (class 1 + class 3 - I can send them to you via PGP signed mail or upload to sunjammer or ...) in the webkit version of Browse, please?
16:21 lucian silbe: as soon as there is a webkit version of browse
16:21 bernie lucian: are all the old features still going to work? such as bookmark sharing, downloading files to the journal, etc?
16:21 lucian bernie: it mostly involves moving code from Browse to webwrap
16:21 hulahop is surprisingly low-level
16:21 much more low-level than pywebkitgtk
16:21 silbe bernie: Well, a buggy Browse is better than a non-working one (xulrunner/xpcom getting dropped by distros)...
16:22 lucian: thanks!
16:22 lucian silbe: and webwrap + webkit is full of #TODO right now, but it should be easier to do
16:22 bernie lucian: note that we don't really care to keep xulrunner & hulahop...
16:22 lucian there are some issues i don't know how to deal with cleanly
16:22 bernie: you might not, but some people here do
16:22 bernie lucian: so if it breaks nobody will cry
16:22 lucian: oh? who?
16:22 lucian bernie: a few people expressed concern. read the ml thread
16:22 silbe lucian: just making sure that the first "release" of the webkit port will include the CAcert root cert.
16:23 lucian in any case, pywebkitgtk isn't maintained full-time afaik
16:23 so both options are volatile
16:23 hulahop moreso because ubuntu devs are bonkers
16:23 (at least considering what mozilla folk said)
16:24 basically, mozilla care more about firefox than about embedders, but they have no plans to drop xpcom or anything like that
16:24 ubuntu just decided that they'd rather have a system webkit than a system gecko and for neglected xulrunner in the process
16:25 so in the very long run, webkit is probably a better choice
16:27 bemasc and just to make things fun, both sides are in the middle of a dramatic rewrite of their major interfaces
16:29 lucian bemasc: all the more reason to have an abstraction layer methinks
16:29 silbe bemasc: yeah, and add Gnome 3 to that equation and we're in for some trouble :-/
16:30 bernie silbe: we're behind on gnome 3 support anyway... let's not complicate an already difficult design with even more requirements
16:31 kevix browse is going to use webkit? the current browse scored 126/300 on html5test.com
16:31 silbe bernie: I meant Sugar in general, not Browse in particular
16:31 see the recent Read on SoaS debacle
16:31 bernie silbe: btw, tch is blocking on the freeze/unfreeze datastore patch for his journal restore feature
16:32 lucian kevix: for gsoc, i'm working on an abstraction layer to allow browse to use either gecko or webkit
16:32 silbe (which IMO is a loud cry for automatic UI tests that can be run on the build slaves to catch such issues)
16:32 bernie lucian: what's the subject of the thread in which people asked to keep xulrunner support?
16:32 kevix lucian: oh. that sounds great
16:33 lucian bernie: let me look for it
16:33 bernie lucian: 'cause I really think it would be good to remove all roadblocks slowing you down on a switch to webkit.
16:33 lucian bernie: [Sugar-Devel] Sugar Web Engine
16:34 silbe bernie: yeah, sorry. I slept over it again and think it'll be easier (and cleaner) to do it a layer up by pimping up Journal Entry Bundles. I'll hopefully give it a try tomorrow. If it doesn't work out fast enough I'll add the test for the freeze feature.
16:34 bernie lucian: if someone is nostalgic of xulrunner they can keep running the old version of Browse forever :-)
16:34 silbe bernie: I got blocked myself by the rootfs on my XO-1.5 getting unreadable after a crash. :(
16:34 btrfs error handling still needs some improvements...
16:34 bernie silbe: ok
16:36 silbe: if we don't have by tomorrow, we'll miss the Beta1 milestone which is supposed to be feature-complete
16:36 lucian bernie: also, many people expressed concern that webkit would use more memory, but i was never able to confirm that by experiment
16:36 ashish_singhal where to  copy activity file in sugar-jhbuild to crate a activity??
16:38 walterbender ashish_singhal: ~/Activities
00:53 aa bernie_afk: Couldn't reproduce the wnck-metacity race with your downgraded rpms
00:57 bernie_afk: Couldn't reproduce the wnck-metacity race with your downgraded rpms. Even under heavy load, I could see some decorated windows for a few seconds, but they all eventually got undecorated
00:58 bernie_afk: so this may well be a recent regression in either metacity or wnck (I'm not clear on which one you downgraded)
01:21 bernie aa: I _upgraded_ them
01:21 aa: compared to F11, that is...
01:22 aa: I initially tried building libwnck from F13, which had too many unsatisfied dependencies, then went back to the F12 version, which is still newer than what we had before
01:43 dirakx1 bernie: ping.
01:43 bernie: nvm got it.
01:54 bernie dirakx1: uh?
01:54 dirakx1: nvm?
02:10 kevix nvm = nevermind
07:08 silbe erikos: hi!
07:09 erikos hi silbe - great news! ;p
07:10 silbe erikos: ok, I take that as you're not objecting, so I hijack the repo now :)
07:12 lucian: how do you prefer to be called (real name) on the Modules page? Lucian Branescu Mihaila?
07:18 satellit__ silbe: the revision of Browse page would only be for soas spin .iso  Would add 1 menu item to top line of links on existing index.html
07:22 silbe satellit__: ok, then you'll have to ask the SoaS team. Even if I wanted I don't have access to their infrastructure (it's hosted by Fedora now), so can't change it.
07:22 sdziallas: BTW, what do you still use on our side? Is there anything we can clean up?
07:22 erikos silbe: yes, I am very happy as well about the way it was represented on the mailing list
07:23 silbe: that the main goal is to keep it alive
07:23 sdziallas silbe: hiya!
07:23 reads backlog
07:23 silbe sdziallas: just trying to remove unnecessary clutter - if you still have use for anything, we'll naturally continue to provide the resources.
07:23 sdziallas silbe: you mean infra wise?
07:23 erikos silbe: and having two people is a great thing too
07:23 sdziallas hey erikos :)
07:24 silbe sdziallas: yep, build slaves and download space.
07:24 erikos sdziallas: hey
07:24 sdziallas silbe: yup for both -- not as heavily as before, but we might still need to do composes that aren't covered by the nightly builds or something
07:25 erikos: looks like I missed a good match (England vs. USA) when being on the train... :)
07:25 erikos sdziallas: nah ;p
07:25 silbe erikos: just don't expect anything major to happen - I'm already in overload mode and Lucian is also busy with next-generation Browse.
07:25 erikos silbe: yup, yup, that is absolutely fine
07:26 silbe erikos: glad that you appreciate the way I did it - took me over half an hour to draft that email ;)
07:26 erikos silbe: au contraire, I think for now that is the right approach
07:26 silbe: if you would have promissed a new shiny feature-rich browse I would have surprised actually ;p
07:27 silbe erikos: hehe
07:27 I'd rather promise to break it so lucians webkit port gets merged into distros earlier :-P
07:28 sdziallas silbe: I think I can help with throwing it into distros (at least one), no worries there :P
07:28 silbe sdziallas: your help there will be appreciated :)
07:29 sdziallas silbe: well, compared to what you folks are doing, it's... :)
07:30 erikos runs to school
07:31 silbe sdziallas: Lucian, not me (to give credit where credit is due) - I know next to nothing about Browse.
07:31 lucian silbe: about my name, what other way is there?
07:32 silbe: i'm almost ready to give up on hulahop entirely. i'll see if i can fix anything today
07:33 silbe lucian: I think I've seen "Lucian Branescu" mentioned somewhere as well, and I don't know what's the order of names (i.e. whether Branescu is your surname or Mihaila) in your case. Personally I omit my middle name everywhere, so I figured I'd ask for your preference. :)
07:34 lucian silbe: "Branescu Mihaila" is my surname unfortunately. so it's Lucian Branescu Mihaila
07:36 silbe lucian: interesting. I don't suppose you've been married before (the only way to get a double-surname in Germany is to get married; children have to be given either one of the surnames but not both)?
07:37 lucian silbe: no, my mother kept her name when she married, so I got both her name (Branescu) and my fathers's (Mihaila)
07:37 silbe lucian: ok, so different countries different (naming) rules
07:38 lucian silbe: not really, there are no "rules" as far as i know
07:38 silbe: in fact, on my birth certificate initially there was only "Branescu", "Mihaila" was added later
07:39 silbe lucian: FWIW, we don't need your official name on the wiki (so "Lucian Branescu" is fine as well) - it's just so people know your name.
07:39 lucian: you don't want to know how many times my birth certificate was changed (each time changing the surname) ;)
07:40 I'm glad I didn't accumulate all the names, though :-P
07:40 lucian silbe: ah. for me it's only a problem because "Branescu" is a very typical romanian name and "Mihaila" isn't
07:40 and in romania, surnames tend to be written before names, like "Branescu Mihaila Lucian"
07:41 silbe: also, "Mihaila" is similar to "Mihail", so many romanians assume that it's my surname
07:41 silbe lucian: ok, sounds like the full name might actually be better. But it's your name, so just tell me what to add to the wiki.
07:41 lucian silbe: "Lucian Branescu Mihaila" is ok
07:42 silbe: s/many romanians assume it's my surname/many romanians assume it's my middle name/
07:44 silbe ah, names are so much fun ;)
07:44 lucian silbe: not mine, it isn't :P i've had so many people get it horribly wrong, and they were romanians
07:45 silbe lucian: you don't imagine how many ways to misspell and mispronounce Sascha there are ;)
07:45 lucian silbe: ah. and by compatriots?
07:45 silbe lucian: compatriots = germans? If so, yes, definitely. :)
07:47 lucian silbe: and we didn't even do it to ourselves, someone else did :)
07:49 silbe lucian: at least for the given names, yes. as for the surnames, I was asked - but then I was still a child and couldn't totally grasp the implications. I'm rather glad about the final outcome, though: Sascha Silbe is a UUID AFAIK.
07:50 lucian silbe: and it sounds nice too :)
07:51 silbe lucian: thanks :)
07:51 lucian silbe: i'm pretty damn sure Lucian Branescu Mihaila is a UUID too
07:51 no one could possibly have such a weird, braindead name
07:51 silbe lol
07:57 ninth Hi. Just two days ago I asked for a quick solution for installing Mirabelle on an USB stick. And you (?) said: I'll fix the LiveUSBCreator, this week. Now it's done. :-)
07:57 Stays to say a big Thank You and this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpcUxwpOQ_A
07:57 bye
07:58 sdziallas ninth: I believe the person who made the work is lmacken. I'm glad to hear that it's working now! :)
07:59 ninth ok :D
07:59 satellit__ sdziallas: will that update in f12? automatically
08:00 sdziallas satellit__: that depends on whether lmacken has already pushed an update
08:00 satellit__ ok I would like to know when so I can edit live DVD page on wiki
08:01 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]_OF_Soas_Features
08:02 which is page I want to link to on Soas start-new Browse page
08:02 modified-browse proposed feature
08:05 silbe ok, I've finished hijacking Browse. Now to push my CAcert change :-P
08:19 lmacken sdziallas: yes, I pushed out a new liveusb-creator yesterday
08:19 sdziallas lmacken: that's awesome! thank you :)
08:19 satellit__: yup yup, I saw that!
08:50 gangil Hi , I was hacking around in one of the activities(Physics) , so I modified the source code and saved the file. Now I run sugar-emulator to see the changes but it says "Physics failed to start". It's fine, I may have done some mistakes, but in this case where do I see the error output. It's not printed in the terminal from which I ran sugar emulator.
08:51 lucian gangil: start up log viewer
08:52 gangil lucian: can you be a bit more explicit in your answer, I am noob in sugar as for now.
08:52 lucian gangil: there is an activity called Log Viewer
08:53 pfroehlich gangil: yeah the log viewer is your friend, as is just looking into the .sugar directory (I think that's what it's called and where the logs are stored?)
08:53 lucian gangil: it'll have a section for each activitie's error/info messages
08:53 gangil ok , yeah got it in list view, starting it
08:53 lucian pfroehlich: and yes, logs are stored in .sugar/*user*/logs or something
08:56 gangil ok, got it thanks lucian and pfroehlich :) . I am curious as two why there are two log files associated with the physics activity 1.org.laptop.physics-1.log 2. org.laptop.physics-1.log . Is a log file created for an activity for each activity for wach instance?!
09:02 lucian gangil: it's created for each run afaik
09:02 walterbender ~/.sugar/default/logs/...
09:02 silbe gangil: the second one is probably called org.laptop.physics-2.log - each time you an instance of an activity is run a new log file will be created (since you can run multiple instances in parallel).
09:03 pfroehlich sdziallas, mchua: are 2 GB sticks enough or should I get 4 GB sticks for my students? for SoaS?
09:03 sdziallas pfroehlich: !!!!! :) (that sounds pretty awesome, just sayin')
09:03 silbe does anyone have a Journal Entry Bundle (JEB) I could use for testing? I didn't find even a single one :(
09:03 sdziallas pfroehlich: usually, 2GB should be enough!
09:04 mchua pfroehlich: I found cheap ones at microcenter - $8 for 4GB, I think
09:04 cheaper for 2gb
09:05 pfroehlich is a newegg guy :-D
09:05 sdziallas mchua: $8? that's really cool!
09:06 mchua sdziallas: Yeah, it's where we got all the sticks for Lynne May's class from.
09:06 silbe pfroehlich: personally I'd recommend to go for 4GB if they're that cheap - if you use a 2GB overlay (maximum size) you won't run into overlay corruption, saving you a _lot_ of trouble.
09:06 sdziallas mchua: *nice!*
09:06 mchua pfroehlich: http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1798 is, uh, a problem
09:07 silbe 4GB should be plenty for SoaS + 2GB overlay + some space to exchange files with other computers.
09:07 mchua really needs to work on that feature proposal at some point.
09:07 Mostly as a way of learning how that stuff works myself. I'm flying blind.
09:08 (so blind, in fact, that I'm starting ridiculously early to make sure it gets through. I don't know what scope of work this is, tbh.)
09:08 pfroehlich silbe, mchua: wow, I didn't think there would be a problem of this sort
09:09 silbe, mchua: why is that "overlay" stuff needed, why doesn't it just write to the regular file system on the stick?
09:09 silbe pfroehlich: I was astonished myself when I first learned about it :-/
09:09 mchua pfroehlich: it's what pbrobinson and I were talking about at dinner on... Friday, I think it was - all the compression comes from Ye Olde Days Of When We Putteth Everything On CDs
09:09 silbe pfroehlich: because that's the way Fedora designed it
09:09 pfroehlich silbe: sigh
09:09 sdziallas I'll note there are apparently scripts out there to do it right, but we'd have to get these upstream and multi-platform support working.
09:09 pfroehlich thinks he needs to build LFS + Sugar himself :-D
09:10 mchua so as I understand it, pfroehlich... right now, how liveusbs are created (someone please correct me here) is that an ext3 filesystem is made
09:10 silbe pfroehlich: bernie has made a "direct install" image - depending on how adventerous you are, that might be an option.
09:10 mchua Linux is installed on that
09:10 that ext3 fs is smashed into a... squashfs for compression - thus becoming read-only
09:10 pfroehlich silbe: that mysterious bernie again! :-D
09:10 silbe pfroehlich: yeah, bernie is awesome :)
09:11 mchua a bunch of boot stuff is chucked in, and then the mysterious "overlay file" is added
09:11 pfroehlich silbe: got a link to that image? :-D
09:11 mchua: i dislike overlay files already, let's see if I can get around that :-D
09:11 mchua the overlay being sort of like a (cryptic, unreadable) diff of changes you want to make to the (read-only) ext3 fs where the actual Linux install is.
09:11 pfroehlich: Yeeeeeeah.
09:12 silbe pfroehlich: http://people.sugarlabs.org/~bernie/soas/ seems to be the latest :-/
09:12 sdziallas silbe: IIRC, it was still in the Blueberry days
09:12 silbe bernie_afk: are you going to update your SoaS image one of these days? :)
09:12 sdziallas silbe: yeah...
09:12 mchua so when the overlay runs out of space to hold those diffs, it promptly goes and ruins itself, because the ext3 filesystem isn't given a nice termination.
09:12 sdziallas mchua: did you talk to lmacken 'bout that, yet?
09:12 mchua still has a vague understanding of this, but that's the picture that makes sense in my mind
09:13 sdziallas mchua: I do think this is an appropriate description.
09:13 mchua sdziallas: He muttered something about how he had UI changes ready for liveusb-creator that he "just had to push"
09:13 sdziallas lmacken: ^^ :)
09:13 mchua sdziallas: I think he is in some meetings this morning but I want to get him in here so y'all can hammer him on liveusb-creator for a while.
09:14 If nothing else, on Friday; he's leading a group on a deep-dive for Measure this afternoon.
09:14 Unless you can persuade them to switch projects.
09:14 sdziallas mchua: okeydokey, that's cool!
09:15 silbe mchua: that's exactly the way it works. as a matter of details, the ext3 image is 2GB in size (so a 2GB overlay will avoid the corruption issue), and IIRC an empty overlay file is shipped inside a squashfs container inside the ISO to aid as a "template" for creating the overlay file.
09:15 mchua silbe: Oh, neat - what sets the ext3 image as 2GB in size? Is that determined by liveusb-creator?
09:16 sdziallas mchua: my setting in the kickstart file, afaict
09:16 silbe mchua: no, it's done as part of the image (i.e. ISO) creation
09:16 sdziallas silbe: :)
09:18 mchua looks at http://git.fedorahosted.org/gi[…]c4db90671;hb=HEAD for the setting
09:18 sdziallas mchua: it's set in the fedora-live-mini.ks
09:18 mchua: we can adjust it, if needed.
09:18 mchua Oh.
09:18 reads http://git.fedorahosted.org/gi[…]2671f7eea;hb=HEAD instead
09:18 sdziallas mchua:  12 part / --size 4096 --fstype ext4
09:19 (actually, drop the 12. that's just the line.)
09:19 silbe: you sure it's 2GB?
09:19 silbe: ah, I think we did 2GB before Mirabelle, actually.
09:20 silbe sdziallas: I was sure it was. the above line reads like you've increased the minimal supported stick size to 8GB :-P
09:20 sdziallas silbe: uh, no?
09:20 silbe: it works perfectly fine on my 1GB stick.
09:20 mchua until the overlay comes crashing down. ;)
09:20 silbe sdziallas: with "supported" meaning "doesn't commit suicide"
09:20 sdziallas silbe: also, this is 4GB and not 8GB, no?
09:21 silbe: ah, gotcha!
09:21 silbe: uh, why's that?
09:21 silbe sdziallas: you need 4GB for the (uncompressed) overlay file + some space for the SoaS contents, and since there's nothing between 4GB and 8GB sticks the latter one is it.
09:22 sdziallas: the only way to keep the overlay from corrupting in the long run is by making it the same size as the (original, uncompressed) ext3 image.
09:22 sdziallas silbe: well, it *fits* on my 1GB stick because the liveusb-creator puts it on the stick in a compressed form, no?
09:23 silbe sdziallas: sure, it fits. but once you start using it, it'll go kaboom.
09:23 sdziallas silbe: like *booooom* or *booooooof*? :)
09:23 silbe maybe not on the first day, but eventually it will.
09:23 sdziallas: like all of the users data gone for good :-P
09:24 sdziallas ouch!
09:25 chrowe bernie_afk: there should be 2 mailman lists, bolivia and la, we want them to both have public archives
09:30 mchua sdziallas: I think what silbe is trying to say is that the overlay corruption issue only occurs when the overlay is smaller than the ext3 image - so the stick has to be 2x the size of the "part / --size <NUMBER>" setting.
09:30 sdziallas mchua: I got that.
09:32 silbe mchua: almost. the stick only needs to be large enough for one time the set size, plus the compressed size of the image. but in practice the stick sizes are always doubled, so the 2x figure is correct nevertheless.
09:35 mchua walterbender: lmacken will be leading folks on a Measure hacking session today - small group, lmacken == excellent Python hacker but new to Sugar code - by way of teaching folks how to dive into a new codebase. any notes/bugs/etc you'd like them to tackle in particular?
09:35 walterbender: If you're around to co-hack, that'd be fun - if not, we don't expect it, we'll improvise and try to be as helpful as we can. :)
09:36 silbe: I think... at some point I need to try drawing a diagram of that when I'm writing up the feature proposal to make sure I'm actually grokking everything.
09:36 sdziallas mchua: IIRC, you did already draw one.
09:38 silbe daveb: are you operating xs.sugarlabs.org (schoolserver.sugarlabs.org)?
09:39 daveb silbe: possibly
09:40 apparently yes.
09:40 bernie chrowe: I checked yesterday and the bolivia one had private archives configured in mailman
09:40 chrowe: I don't know the listadmin password to check the privacy configuration
09:41 mchua sdziallas: I have an inaccurate scribbled diagram from dinner with pbrobinson and pfroehlich last Friday in my notebook, but I never uploaded that.
09:41 sdziallas mchua: and we did one before that already, too.
09:43 silbe daveb: it's currently unreachable. I was hoping I could try it out (still need that Journal Entry Bundle for testing as AFAICT the XS is the only software that will create one).
09:44 chrowe bernie: but they are both set to public now and they are both asking me to log in to see the archive
09:45 daveb silbe: what do you expect to appear there?
09:45 silbe daveb: Moodle probably...
09:46 daveb ok
09:46 not sure what's going on. apparently its not starting
09:46 mchua sdziallas: where?
09:46 sdziallas mchua: PM.
09:46 daveb i think its dns
09:46 cjb pbrobinson: hey, do you have everything you need to rebuild squeak-vm?  let me know if you aren't going to have time and I'll apply for ACL/etc
09:47 daveb silbe: do you know who can fix that? its pointing schoolserver.sugarlabs.org to should be
09:47 sdziallas mchua: on your whiteboard.
09:47 mchua sdziallas: Oh, that! Yeah... the one in my notebook was an evolution of that, the next one I do I'll upload.
09:48 cjb: I think pbrobinson is likely hosed in madrid atm.
09:48 cjb mchua: ok, thanks
09:49 bernie chrowe: perhps the link in the front page is not being updated?
09:49 chrowe: maybe the page is being cached?
09:49 silbe daveb: schoolserver.sugarlabs.org is a CNAME for schoolserver.solutiongrove.com which points to I can change schoolserver.sugarlabs.org to give the correct address directly instead.
09:50 bernie silbe: not sure I have the time to update my soas image soon... someone should.
09:51 chrowe bernie: cached on the server? I am pretty sure it is not browser cache.
09:52 bernie chrowe: It seems that mailman renders the pages from templates... not sure whether they are also stored on disk. probably not.
09:53 chrowe: can you send me the list admin password in pm?
09:53 chrowe bernie: I did
09:55 daveb silbe: yes all those names were moved to a different IP address .220
09:55 silbe grr, forgot to update the serial number again. :-/
09:55 daveb silbe: if you can fix that, that would be helpful
09:57 nhacbv hey, when I put client.run_command('/nick testingname') in the code, I get the error:
09:57 Error handling: OwnRaw
09:57 anyone know what that means?
09:58 silbe daveb: I've changed schoolserver.sugarlabs.org and xs.sugarlabs.org to point to .220 and I get to the login screen now. thanks!
09:58 nhacbv this is from the irc activity code anyways, sorry
09:58 mchua nhacbv: Where does the error show up? Python traceback? Log?
09:59 nhacbv mchua: in the log
09:59 mchua: after I ran that line
09:59 gangil !log
09:59 bernie chrowe: looking
09:59 silbe now how do I get an account on the XS? I would have expected Register to create one...
09:59 gangil wants to know if this channel is logged?
09:59 bernie silbe: it does
09:59 mchua gangil: Sometimes - there's a bot people can turn on and off for meetings.
10:00 bernie silbe: not sure, actually... it does something that makes the rsync over ssh work, though
10:00 silbe bernie: so what's the user name and password? Browse doesn't seem to log me in automatically, as I thought it would.
10:02 daveb silbe: excellent.
10:02 silbe: have you registered with the schoolserver?
10:03 silbe daveb: yep, and it said registration was successful.
10:03 daveb silbe: ok what version of sugar are you using?
10:04 silbe daveb: current devel (0.88 / 0.90)
10:05 bernie silbe: I don't know whether we do single sign on
10:05 silbe: martinxs and dsd_ would know these things
10:06 silbe bernie: I thought that's what all this key pushing is for?
10:06 mchua nhacbv: I'd search through the irc activity code to see if you can find the error text "OwnRaw"
10:06 nhacbv: check out the "ack" tool for that, if you haven't already ;)
10:09 nhacbv mchua: what's the ack tool?
10:09 mchua: and I found OwnRaw in Network.raw() method
10:09 sdziallas nhacbv: it's like grep -- just way easier
10:09 nhacbv: http://betterthangrep.com/
10:12 bernie silbe: it's an ssh key. so no web authentication, I'm afraid
10:14 satellit__ sdziallas: just reading backlog. why use compressed image at all in liveusb-creator make it usb-creator with ext fs from beginning as anaconda does in soas....
10:14 silbe bernie: everything I've read on the OLPC wiki suggests automatic login - though apparently with username=serial number and password=UUID, not using keys.
10:14 sdziallas satellit__: it still has to be put on the usb key in an easy way.
10:15 silbe bernie: it's all just keys in the end - Browse could be doing the conversion itself.
10:15 satellit__ write it as ext3 fs from .iso with revised liveusb-creator renamed usb-creator Graphical
10:15 silbe bernie: but I have a feeling I know why it doesn't work: I'm trying it from a non-XO, so there's no (real) serial number.
10:15 bernie silbe: login where? the xs is wide open here in caacupe. no authentication for most services
10:15 sdziallas satellit__: well, that requires some coding to work, right?
10:15 silbe bernie: http://schoolserver.sugarlabs.org/
10:16 bernie rgs_: do you know if the xs has some web pages requiring login?
10:16 mchua nhacbv: Ok - can you pastebin the code around it? (http://fpaste.org, send me the link here)
10:16 satellit__ yes it does : / or chage in coding like bernie suggested
10:16 mchua nhacbv: and also the traceback, so I can see what's going on?
10:16 bernie silbe: this is the xs maintained by daveb, I think
10:16 satellit__ s/change
10:16 sdziallas satellit__: yes, that's what we were talking about above
10:17 gangil hi, is there any other quick way when hacking on any activity code. like everytime I amke changes in the code , I have to re run the emulator, which takes time to start. Is there any faster approach?
10:17 satellit__ ok I am +1 for that if it can be done
10:17 silbe bernie: yes, it is, see above :-P
10:17 satellit__ or at least provide it as option for sticks
10:17 silbe gangil: you don't have to restart Sugar, just the activity.
10:18 satellit__ sdziallas also find way for deja-dup to back up journal
10:18 does /home very well to 2nd stick
10:21 sdziallas: that is why I did Mirabelle-remix ( on live DVD page) I added it and zyx and gparted to .ks
10:21 only command line
10:38 rgs_ bernie: cacti? (but its not in by default on the XS)
10:41 nhacbv mchua: here's the link: http://fpaste.org/d0df/
10:41 it's in the trac page too
10:42 acrowe Where can I get the newest version of Turtle Art?
10:50 satellit__ sdziallas: in 611 f14(rawhide) USB did yum install liveusb-creator: Mirabelle is option  ver 3.9.2-1 fc14
10:51 will test on mirabelle usb.
10:51 it DID update
10:51 on rawhide
10:54 lmacken it should be in updates-testing for f13 and f12
10:56 satellit__ lmaken: thanks testing  on v3 Mirabelle f13 get 3.9,1-1.fc13 noarch
10:56 says latest version
10:57 normal user will not be able to set to updates-testing though
10:57 silbe oh great, Terminal is broken :-/
10:57 today is really not my day...
10:57 satellit__ sorry s/lmacken  : /
10:58 lmacken satellit__: right, I just wanted to push it to updates-testing first to make sure it didn't have any regressions
10:58 it'll hit stable soon
10:59 satellit__ thanks for making Mirabelle a download option...:  ) It is very useful program
10:59 lmacken thank sdziallas, he added it to the liveusb-creator :)
10:59 satellit__ : )
11:00 wish it had option for non-compressed fs ie: ext3-4 file structure like anaconda
11:01 sdziallas lmacken: it wasn't *that* hard ;)
11:01 satellit__ sdziallas: thanks also
11:01 will reboot 611 f14 stick and try using it...
11:05 gangil Hi in the write activity code I see the module sugar.graphics.toolbarbox but I can't find it on api.sugarlabs.org, am I missing something?
11:11 mchua nhacbv: great (for both fpaste and trac ;)
11:12 looks
11:21 bernie aa: I'm refreshing your journal improvement patches... do you have them somewhere where I could quickly wget them all?
11:34 aa bernie: there's http://git.sugarlabs.org/proje[…]ar/repos/sugar-aa
11:34 bernie: I don't have a clone for the DS patches, or the icons, would you like me to make one?
11:34 mchua nhacbv_lunch: ok, I guess we can hack on this when we get back from lunch :) I might have some folks joining us, too.
11:35 mtd wonders why http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]m/Release/Modules is organised as a list rather than a table
11:37 silbe ok, no dice using an XO-1.5/Build 201 either. Automatic login to schoolserver.sugarlabs.org simply doesn't work.
11:38 bernie aa: no, thanks.. I just need the patches for applying them to the rpm without changing the tarballs
11:39 aa: I prefer not to work with git for unapplied patches, because the workflow of the integrator requires juggling patches in complex ways
11:39 aa: git becomes more of an impediment than a useful tool for patch queue management
11:40 pfroehlich bernie: actually, I had that problem on github until I read the right tutorials, let me see if I can find them :-D
11:40 bernie: oh wait, you want to KEEP them unapplied
11:40 bernie: sorry, misunderstood
11:41 silbe daveb: can you create an account for me on schoolserver.sl.o manually, please? The automatic stuff doesn't seem to work.
11:47 aa bernie: http://people.sugarlabs.org/~a[…]/journal-sort/v1/
11:47 bernie pfroehlich: yep... packaging requires patches to stay separate from sources
11:47 aa: thanks
11:49 daveb silbe: ok.
11:49 auto login not sure how it works.
11:49 we always applied patches for it.
11:49 for soas
11:49 b/c it requires "schoolserver" to resolve to the remote server
11:49 on the XO
11:49 silbe daveb: Browse apparently sends some cookie that should do it
11:50 daveb you can add that to /etc/hosts
11:50 yes
11:50 silbe daveb: I patched the source to make that schoolserver.sugarlabs.org instead
11:50 daveb anyway pm my the email and i'll set it up
11:50 silbe daveb: silbe@sl.o
11:51 daveb ok
11:51 silbe (with sl.o = sugarlabs.org)
11:51 daveb right
11:51 hopes he has the admin login
11:56 erikos tomeu: I guess I should branch sugar-toolkit, too?
11:58 satellit__ daveb: for soas autologin I use this http://people.sugarlabs.org/Tg[…]ard/AutoLogin.txt
11:59 ganderson nhacbv_lunch: ping
12:00 nhacbv ganderson: I'm here now
12:00 silbe satellit__: we're talking about automatic login on the school server (using Browse), not automatic login to X / Sugar.
12:01 ganderson nhacbv: hey!  I was just talking to mchua a little bit about the IRC activity you're working on.  How's that going?
12:01 nhacbv mchua: awesome. :)
12:02 ganderson nhacbv: did you get that info to save/pull from the journal?
12:02 nhacbv ganderson: I got all the data needed using metadata, but I don't know how to put them back in
12:02 the settings for IRC properly.
12:02 satellit__ sdziallas; lmacken: I made f14 611 rawhide soas spin 8 gb USB -then did yum install liveusb-creator -did Mirabell d/l to usb -then made 2GB USB successfully used 2 GB stick  target with620 mb persistence
12:04 done with liveusb-creator 3.9.2-1 fc14 on 8GB USB with .iso on stick
12:05 silbe tomeu: what versions of glib and pygobject would Sugar require if we were to move to introspection? Would the version currently in Debian squeeze suffice?
12:06 tomeu silbe: pygobject should be very recent
12:06 glib, whatever pygobject requires, but also depends if we are interested in the new APIs such as GSettings, GDbus, etc
12:06 silbe I'm not particularly worried about not supporting non-latest Ubuntu given their current track record, but not supporting Debian would certainly hurt (not only because I use it exclusively and develop on it)
12:07 tomeu silbe: is it decided if gnome 3 will be in squeeze?
12:10 silbe tomeu: python-gobject is currently 2.21.1-1 and libglib2.0-0 is 2.24.1-1. Squeeze is supposed to ship Gnome 2.30 according to http://article.gmane.org/gmane[…]vel.announce/1483
12:12 satellit__ iso ends up in /home/liveuser
12:13 silbe tomeu: I can't find anything about plans to ship Gnome 3, so I doubt it's going to happen.
12:14 tomeu: similar to RHEL, it's easy to add new packages, but updating existing ones would get us into dependency hell. No way I'm going there.
12:15 tomeu silbe: hmm, I guess it's not practical to try to sync sugar development with LTS releases?
12:15 I guess that's what I was asking in the ml earlier today
12:15 silbe tomeu: LTS releases? Debian has only one sort of release, and that's "it's ready when it's ready" :)
12:17 tomeu silbe: ok, s/LTS/non-crazy-often
12:17 silbe tomeu: Debian doesn't do time based releases, so there's nothing we could synchronize to.
12:18 tomeu silbe: then we cannot depend on what debian testing carries, right?
12:18 otherwise, we could only upgrade Sugar dependencies after Debian testing upgraded theirs
12:18 silbe traditionally it takes about 2 years between releases, but that's just statistics, nothing explicitly planned like Ubuntu or Fedora do
12:19 tomeu: testing = packages from unstable that didn't get a new bug reported within 10 days (roughly), unstable = development branch (like Rawhide)
12:20 except when near a releases (=> freeze), testing/unstable is going to contain somewhat recent packages.
12:21 and we are slowing closing in on a release (of squeeze) now
12:22 tomeu: as long as we don't depend on anything that's not in Debian testing yet, everything is fine IMO.
12:22 gangil Hi , here in this link http://api.sugarlabs.org/frames.html , I don't see sugar.activity.widgets and sugar.graphics.toolbarboxshouldn't they be in there?
12:23 tomeu gangil: maybe it needs updating?
12:23 gangil tomeu: I don't know, I have just begun with the stuff.
12:23 tomeu silbe: what means "is fine" here?
12:23 gangil :)
12:23 silbe gangil: it hasn't been updated in a while unfortunately.
12:24 dfarning: any news on keeping api.sugarlabs.org current?
12:24 tomeu: means we won't screw developers working on Debian.
12:25 tomeu: Sugar has always required working either on Debian testing directly, or using a Debian testing chroot for Sugar development.
12:25 gangil tomeu , silbe : can I be of any help?
12:25 nhacbv ganderson: mchua: could you guys pull the changes and check them out? should be all in ircactivity.py
12:26 silbe gangil: if you're talking about keeping api.sugarlabs.org up-to-date, only dfarning can tell.
12:26 ganderson nhacbv: sure, lemme pull it up
12:26 mtd alsroot: you and Eduardo Silva are down as Log's co-maintainers but Log is down as "unmaintained" on http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]m/Release/Modules .
12:26 alsroot: should I make you both the Maintainers?
12:26 gangil silbe: ya , I am talking about the same.
12:26 tomeu silbe: and what's the problem with jhbuild?
12:27 dfarning silbe yes, AC has hired technical writes to see if we can improve the state of sugar documentation.  Within the next couple of weeks we will replace the current documation generation system with sphix
12:27 ganderson nhacbv: is it on the mainline?
12:27 silbe tomeu: as long as we don't need to build anything that's already in the distro there's no problem. Trying to "update" some tightly integrated package like GConf or GObject is hell. I'm glad we're mostly out of there.
12:28 dfarning silbe,  then over the next year we will be running rst comments through the standard sugar-devel review process for inclusion in the core code.
12:28 nhacbv ganderson: yes
12:28 ganderson: should be anyways
12:28 silbe dfarning: ah, so you're working on a replacement system instead of getting the current one to work again?
12:28 alsroot mtd: /me didn't know that he is co-maintainers of Log, but I guess it will be ok to make us both Maintainers
12:29 silbe dfarning: updating the API docs themselves sounds awesome, BTW.
12:29 tomeu silbe: not sure why it's hell, I'm building here glib and it doesn't affect the rest of my system at all
12:29 dfarning yes, in the last year sphinx has become the dominate technology for python documentation and rst is the prefered format.
12:29 lmacken satellit__: great, thanks for testing & feedback.
12:30 silbe dfarning: I wonder if you could add some unit/doctests for self-contained modules (the bundle registry stuff might be an example)...
12:30 mtd alsroot: yeah I found / remembered some things when looking at that page, too :)
12:30 alsroot: thanks, will do
12:30 satellit__ yw
12:30 alsroot mtd: but maybe not, I mean if there is someone who wants to be full functional Log maintainer would be useful to state that at least me can pass it
12:30 silbe tomeu: I've tried it and given up. I don't remember what the issue was anymore, but it was a definitive blocker.
12:31 mtd can anyone on the release team look at my changes to the release cycle page and make sure they're ok, please? http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/inde[…]53334&oldid=53221
12:31 alsroot: up to you - I'll leave it as-is now
12:31 tomeu silbe: so almost everybody who develops anything related to the GNOME cycle needs to use jhbuild or something home-cooked. otherwise, the GNOME platform wouldn't evolve
12:32 also, I don't think debian wants upstreams depending on when they update dependencies
12:32 m_anish tch, hola
12:32 dfarning silbe, as we start paying for developers, the time it take for them to get up to speed is considerable.  The documentation effert is a selfish attempt to reduce our costs by reducing the ramp up time for new devs.
12:32 mahadev I am sure people thought about it already.  It will be nice that the wiki help site is easily accessible for each activity from the sugar platform.
12:32 silbe tomeu: we currently build GConf-dbus ourselves and it mostly works, but occasionally it bites us (and I'm waiting for the day it gets incompatible in some obscure way).
12:33 dfarning silbe, plus it is pretty useful for upstreams:)
12:33 tomeu thought bernie had a plan for dropping it?
12:33 satellit__ lmacken: that makes that 8 GB live USB a build system for v4 I guess. (with .iso downloadable 1 x to USB then use it over and over..." ) hope liveusb-creator get into build of v4 : )
12:33 alsroot mtd: I also move myself to Co-maintainers for Chat, since I'm more passive "maintainer"
12:33 tomeu silbe: and when gsettings come, we just can use the keyfile backend in jhbuild
12:33 dfarning silbe, at this point we have no plans for working on unit tests.  sorry.
12:34 mahadev I meant it will be nice if the wiki help site is available from each activity in sugar
12:34 silbe tomeu: Gnome can do it because they rebuild _everything_ in JHBuild. We (or at least I) can't afford to spend that amount of work on maintaining sugar-jhbuild.
12:35 tomeu silbe: you don't need to rebuild everything: http://live.gnome.org/PyGI#Getting_the_code
12:35 silbe dfarning: I'm not talking about extensive tests, just a few ones where it's easy to add them (likely to be very few places).
12:37 tomeu: according to that page you still need to rebuild gtk. That's a non-starter for sugar-jhbuild.
12:37 tomeu silbe: why so?
12:38 silbe: sorry, need to code, please follow up in the open thread in the ml
12:38 silbe tomeu: I've worked hard to get all the non-Sugar packages phased out from sugar-jhbuild. They are a big PITA to maintain.
12:38 tomeu: because I tried and failed.
12:39 tomeu: I already did and am waiting for your reply (re. version numbers and package names)
12:39 tomeu: have fun coding
12:39 mchua waves from Rochester.
12:39 I'm taking a few folks from http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/POSSE_RIT through http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]Activity_Criteria for some Activity - any Activity we pick, not sure which one that's going to be yet
12:40 so if anyone wants that sort of help for an Activity they're working on, or care about, holler.
12:42 #startmeeting
12:42 Bleh, okay.
12:42 So many logs I need to pull from this thing.
12:42 silbe huh? what meeting?
12:42 mchua looking
12:43 silbe #endmeeting
12:43 hmm, just fails silently :-/
12:43 cjb seems like there should be an #endmeeting --force
12:43 mchua #endmeeting

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