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#sugar, 2010-06-11

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Time Nick Message
15:49 mchua #meetingname soas v4 informal discussion
15:49 #info Mostly brainstorming (totally not an official meeting - no decisions being made) trying to get out ideas we've had but haven't written down, things we need to communicate more clearly.
15:49 #chair satellit_
15:49 #chair pbrobinson
15:50 satellit_: It's not a meeting in the "this is a formal scheduled meeting" sense - I thought it would be good to log the conversation we're having so that it's easier to refer to later.
15:50 satellit_ ok
15:50 mchua (so just keep talking and asking questions like you have been - and then we'll figure out afterwards what we want to do with the logs, they're pretty much just for reference.)
15:51 satellit_ I do not think use of compressed fs is good idea
15:51 when the overlay fills up you lose everything...
15:51 mchua #link http://piratepad.net/soas-v4-planning
15:51 satellit_: Yeah, that's the main concern with that.
15:51 satellit_ if you unplug it too soon it is toast
15:52 if you delete journal entries it uses up ovelay
15:52 s/overlay
15:53 why not use zyx-livinstaller or livinst for USB? needs 2x size of usb
15:54 live fs has no ability to recover vs journaled system
15:54 my thoughts....: )
15:54 mchua Yeah, I agree - the overlay corruption problem is something that definitely makes me nervous.
15:55 agrees with the problem, isn't sure what the right solution is
15:55 zyx-liveinstaller and/or livinst are 2, there are other options though
15:55 satellit_ dja-dup backup can be used to back up /home
15:55 mchua Personally I don't know enough about filesystems and overlays and etc. myself to understand why things are set up the way they are for liveusbs.
15:55 there is a reason why we don't just use ext3, but I don't know what it is (and anyhow, it's probably a good assumption to question).
15:55 David Huff, who's the maintainer of livecd-tools (and an engineer in Raleigh) would be likely to know.
15:55 satellit_ then restore to new usb (made with same .iso
15:56 mchua nods - dja-dup would be one option for restoring a corrupted stick with a separate /home (that's been therefore saved from corruption).
15:56 These are options that would be great to explore and test.
15:57 pbrobinson satellit_: zyx-install is an option but the maintainer hasn't proven to be stable
15:57 satellit_ I have done over a hundred formats of USB in my tests. 1 failure from opensuse formatted clifs?
15:57 mchua Actually, this is the sort of stuff that I would like to assign to an intern, if walterbender has that student funding available - this and livecd tools maintenance, addressing those problems.
15:57 satellit_ he did update it for us after I asked him to do it and sent him error logs
15:57 mchua satellit_: also, we may want to document your tests in test plans at some point so they can be reproduced - it's great you're doing all this testing.
15:58 satellit_ dmc sure knows about compressed fs...!
15:58 walterbender needs a clear description of the problem so I can try to find a student to work on it...
15:58 mchua walterbender: that's what we're trying to come up with now.
15:58 satellit_ I need a spreadsheet format on wiki.sdz said he knew how to implment it
15:59 mchua walterbender: we'll ping when we think we have something coherent, but draft writing-up is happening in http://piratepad.net/soas-v4-planning if you want to see the play-by-play.
15:59 pbrobinson satellit_: I know but that was once he had issues before and pulled out. An update once doesn't prove its a stable option moving forward
15:59 satellit_ can anyone else do it?
16:00 *way above my pay grade
16:00 mchua satellit_: I wonder if he meant wiki table syntax - http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Help:Tables is a helpful reference, is that the sort of thing you need?
16:00 satellit_: also, I wasn't so much referring to a table of test results (awesome, and also needed) as instructions on how to run the tests themselves - "first, do X... then click Y, type Z"
16:00 pbrobinson satellit_: its his application. It would need to fork. I doubt we have the resources. That's why we moved back to liveinst. That's Fedora/RH upstream and has an entire dev team working on it
16:00 mchua in other words, "pbrobinson can't" :)
16:01 also can't
16:01 satellit_ not sure. need an interactive spreadsheet like Ooo ss
16:01 mchua satellit_: ...yeah, that's harder (I wish our wiki had that too) - right now we can't do that on the SL wiki since that feature hasn't been installed
16:01 pbrobinson mchua: spot on!
16:01 mchua satellit_: (I'm not sure how one would install it)
16:01 satellit_ ok
16:02 mchua re: pbrobinson and I can't maintain these tools - it doesn't mean that *nobody* can do it (actually, if someone would, we'd be supremely grateful and encourage them to do so), just that the two of us personally do not have the time.
16:02 satellit_ is there an interactive ss we could all access?
16:02 mchua can think of google docs, but isn't as much of a fan... too much juggling of accounts (it keeps asking me if I want to log in with my SL google account, my personal google account, my email address that isn't a google account but got made into a google account, etc)
16:03 can't really think of any good solutions for that, tbh - have been looking for a while myself
16:03 satellit_ * ok I just started using it so no experience
16:06 I guess dd install like bernie's blueberry direct used for ext3 is not a possible solution for Soas..
16:06 * used by opensuse-edu also
16:07 with persitence
16:07 s/persistence
16:09 bemasc Theoretically WikiCalc/SocialCalc was supposed to solve this problem.
16:10 car|0s mchua, how can i change to which channerl the activity "irc" connects to by default?
16:10 bemasc I've basically given up trying to understand the status of that project.
16:11 satellit_ carj0s I edit a file in the application to add channels using gedit
16:13 car|0s satellit_, is not a question of adding channels, i want users to connect to #olpc-paraguay by default cauze many of them doesnt even speak spanish but rather guarani
16:14 mchua car|0s: I think that's what satellit_ is trying to explain, actually - satellit_, do you remember the name of the file?
16:14 satellit_ It will if you edit the file
16:14 car|0s satellit_, great =)
16:14 satellit_ not off the top of my head
16:15 car|0s satellit_, should i look for a plain text file or a .py file?
16:16 kevix $EDITOR /home/olpc/Activity/IRC.activity/ircactivity.py
16:16 satellit_ carjos it may be in 2 places  /usr/share/sugar?/applications or in the home dir activities depending if it has been updated
16:16 yes
16:17 kevix look for 'client.add_channel('
16:17 car|0s satellit_, i want to change the .xo bundle for use in a new paraguayan build
16:17 satellit_ I do not have that knowledge sorry
16:18 car|0s satellit_, ok, thanks =)
16:21 mchua taking a typing break, for the record - back when hands stop hurting
16:22 satellit_ * I went for coffee....: )
17:32 SeanDaly JT4sugar: here now
17:32 walterbender?
17:33 walterbender hi SeanDaly
17:34 JT4sugar: alas, we didn't get our diagram made last night :(
17:34 SeanDaly JT4sugar is here too i wanted to show you latest draft of PR
17:34 JT4sugar walterbender, Thats ok just send me list of names
17:37 walterbender SeanDaly: I cannot access the sl google site :( can you use a regular google doc and invite my gmail account?
17:37 SeanDaly walterbender: ok
17:41 walterbender, JT4sugar: can you see doc ok?
17:42 greets tabs
17:44 JT4sugar SeanDaly, Got it
17:44 walterbender me too...
17:44 SeanDaly: what is the correct # 1.2million?
17:45 SeanDaly walterbender: good catch that was a May ballpark number
17:45 What is OLPC saying these days?
17:45 looking
17:46 cjb SeanDaly: I think we're saying 1.5M
17:46 walterbender what did we say this week in the Mirabelle announcement?
17:46 SeanDaly:  otherwise, I think it looks great...
17:46 SeanDaly walterbender: we said: "one and a half million"
17:47 walterbender SeanDaly: so 1.5 for consistency sake...
17:47 SeanDaly walterbender: agreed
17:47 walterbender SeanDaly: nice quote from Rodrigo :)
17:48 SeanDaly greetings FGrose! will send invite ok?
17:48 FGrose thanks
17:49 JT4sugar SeanDaly, First sentence could use some work on flow I think
17:50 SeanDaly problem is, we say new versio f software but do'nt say which version...
17:50 JT4sugar: hee hee we have to wedge 3 partners in there...
17:51 walterbender maybe start with: Working togeher, SL, GNOME and OLPC...
17:52 cjb dsd_: around?  see Mikus' mail -- looks like we need another Record spin
17:52 walterbender SeanDaly:  it is def. F13 with the latest GNOME and either 0.84 or 0.88...
17:52 SeanDaly walterbender: yes in fact I remember fudging the version number since it wasn't the "latest & greatest"
17:53 walterbender SeanDaly: I think we still have to fudge, but it is a big improvement over what is currently deployed...
17:53 SeanDaly walterbender: for sure
17:54 I took out "working together" - it's obvious and not a good phrase to lead off with
17:54 walterbender agreed...
17:54 less is more
17:55 we can keep removing words until we get to the essential: "Sugar rocks!"
17:55 SeanDaly walterbender: hee hee this ones will cost me unless we can prune a little... it was leaner until Rodrigo got it but such a nice quote!
17:56 walterbender SeanDaly:  let me look with an eye for cutting...
17:56 dsd_ cjb: thanks, will take care of that soon
17:56 SeanDaly haven't been able to raise the gnomies, I alerted them upon returning from midday meeting but no answer.
17:56 dsd_ cjb: its a really annoying bug in sugar-toolkit :(
17:56 SeanDaly so we shouldn't cut Stormy's quote :D
17:57 JT4sugar SeanDaly, Sometning like "Sugar Labs and the Gnome Free Desktop Project, working together with One Laptop per Child (OLPC), have announced an update to the software on the new OLPC XO-1.5. In addition, a team from Paraguay, working closely with Sugar Labs, is allowing the 1.5 million children already using Sugar to benefit from Sugar Labs latest release .88 by backporting it to the XO-1.
17:57 cjb dsd_: oh dear
17:57 dsd_: what's the bug?
17:57 SeanDaly JT4sugar: look at latest draft please
17:57 dsd_ if system is in spanish, it creates Grabar-80.xo with Grabar.activity as the name
17:58 so i corrected that by hand, but it appears that more correction was needed
17:58 even when you change to english language it doesnt help
17:58 you hvae to change the language systemwide and reboot
17:58 SeanDaly walterbender, fgrose, JT4sugar: if we can trim to 700 words I can live wth the tarif
18:01 i think we could lose "traditional..." - its a good way to dis Windows, but in this contexte disses Gnome too
18:01 JT4sugar SeanDaly, Benefit for children should be before backport-it's a flow thing. Benefit to children should be highlight not backport.
18:02 elcarlitoma-9e79 hola
18:02 SeanDaly JT4sugar: good! let me work on that
18:02 elcarlitoma-9e79 q cola
18:03 walterbender SeanDaly: I need to go... I changed Montevideo to Anuncion... what do you think?
18:03 elcarlitoma-9e79: hola
18:03 SeanDaly walterbender: your call but Anuncion better?
18:04 walterbender well, since that is where Paraguay Educa is...
18:04 more exotic :)
18:06 FGrose Which build of SoaS includes a switch to GNOME?
18:07 SeanDaly FGrose: I believe that's a called a "mistake" on my part ;-)
18:07 walterbender: great idea, identifies PY as a development pole
18:07 walterbender is off... later
18:09 SeanDaly FGrose, JT4sugar: I'm going to find 9 words to cut, then send it for Monday morning distribution
18:10 FGrose The SoaS paragraph needs to be reworked
18:11 SeanDaly FGRose: look at what I just did pls
18:11 JT4sugar SeanDaly, Like reword in first paragraph
18:11 FGrose We actually could switch with early versions of Strawberry
18:11 SeanDaly FGrose: switch?
18:12 FGrose switch to GNOME
18:12 SeanDaly FGrose, JT4sugar: eReleases confirms standing by. We have 40 mins if we need them but I want to finish this soon and get me some sleep, long week
18:13 FGrose: I get you... but I think more prudent to leave out this time
18:13 JT4sugar Lead SoaS paragraph with "Sugar on a Stick" allows even children...
18:16 manyaloagua-dba3 hola
18:16 FGrose Its a feature we could re-enable with customization (but I agree to leave that for the wiki and FAQs).
18:16 elcarlitoma-9e79 hola
18:16 SeanDaly JT4sugar: I like mentioning children first... worried that if I dive right into SoaS info, children get mentioned late in the phrase
18:16 elcarlitoma-9e79 pija
18:16 manyaloagua-dba3 como andas
18:17 SeanDaly FGrose: it's a detail we will spotlight another time - main thrust here is XO-1.5 and new XO-HS
18:17 elcarlitoma-9e79 chupaela un pokito chupamela porfavor si si si señor
18:18 pfroehlich still 500 errors on git.sugarlabs.org! :-/ help? :-D
18:18 JT4sugar SeanDaly, Children are a few words in don't think people are going to miss point-but it does highlight SoaS which we want in Children's hands
18:19 SeanDaly JT4sugar: suggestion for phrase pls?
18:20 Sugar on a Stick, available for download from Sugar Labs in new v3 Mirabelle flavor, allows children with access to any PC, netbook or Mac...
18:20 JT4sugar SeanDaly, Sugar on a stick allows even children...continue phrase and take out SoaS mid sentence should be good
18:21 manyaloagua-dba3 conchudo de mierdafinito
18:21 SeanDaly JT4sugar: ok look now
18:21 JT4sugar SeanDaly, Like it
18:22 elcarlitoma-9e79 se me paro undia y se te clavo en tu boca
18:22 SeanDaly should I leave Fedora ref in?
18:22 manyaloagua-dba3 q
18:26 SeanDaly sdziallas: hi! if you're curious we are just completing another PR for Monday morning
18:28 sdziallas SeanDaly: oh, cool!
18:28 FGrose Fedora reference is good.
18:29 SeanDaly sdziallas: I sent invite to sdz@sl
18:29 sdziallas SeanDaly: awesome, thanks!
18:29 mtd pfroehlich: tried cgit.sl.o?
18:31 SeanDaly FGrose, JT4sugar, sdziallas: 5 words to cut & we're golden
18:31 FGrose I stumble a bit on ... in new v3 Mirabelle flavor,   perhaps ... in the new, v3 Mirabelle flavor,
18:32 cjb dsd_: give me a shout when you've got a Record-91.xo, and I'll make a stable build RC
18:32 .. sorry, 81
18:33 SeanDaly FGrose: yes I changed but important to have Mirabelle keyword for SEO
18:36 bernie pfroehlich: damn
18:36 pfroehlich: can you ask lfaraone or silbe to look into it? I'm too busy now
18:37 SeanDaly FGrose, JT4sugar, sdziallas: I'm back, just paid eReleases
18:41 FGrose, JT4sugar, sdziallas: I got my final wordcount by trimming the About GNOME which had a redundant phrase. Hopefully they'll forgive me, but their schtick was twice as long as ours to begin with :D
18:41 FGrose Consider  - They have the means of honing the creative skills acquired in an elementary education ...
18:42 SeanDaly FGrose - suggesting a change?
18:42 FGrose drop the second they
18:44 SeanDaly good! is now: They have the means of honing the creative skills acquired in an elementary education setting into entrepreneurial skills in a secondary education setting
18:45 698 words time to send this unless any last comments
18:46 Going once!
18:46 Going twice!
18:48 JT4sugar SeanDaly, looks good
18:48 SeanDaly OK I'm sending now! Many thanks JT4sugar and FGrose for assistance on such short notice!
18:53 dsd_ hmm
18:53 JT4sugar SeanDaly, Thanks all have a good day
18:53 dsd_ need some help wit activity packaging
18:53 bernie dsd_: in make_fake_device.sh (for soas), how did you pick the heads and sectors numbers?
18:53 dsd_ i'm trying to release Record but it keeps calling it Grabar (Grabar-81.xo containing Grabar.activity).. even when i set the systemwide lang to english and rebooted
18:54 bernie: not sure what that is
18:54 cjb dsd_: I suppose we could just rename the .xo and the dir inside it.. don't have any other ideas about what's wrong
18:54 bernie dsd_: http://cgit.sugarlabs.org/soas[…]h?h=blueberry#n44
18:54 dsd_ cjb: i did that, and mikus found more breakage. i think its time to do it right
18:55 bernie dsd_: did you check both $LANG and $LANGUAGE?
18:55 cjb dsd_: oh :)
18:55 dsd_ yeah
18:55 bernie dsd_: how about /etc/sysconfig/i18n ? and ~/.i18n?
18:55 dsd_ all looks good, no sign of anything spanish
18:56 bernie cjb: btw, remember about Words... it would be nice to have also on the XO-1 builds I'm making
18:56 cjb bernie: feel free to ask someone else to do it, it doesn't have to be me
18:56 I guess I'm saying that I'm not signing up to maintain it
19:02 bernie cjb: ok
19:03 cjb: I'll do it
19:03 cjb: I asked you just because Words is in your home
19:04 mtd dsd_: bernie's talking about these numbers http://dev.laptop.org/git/proj[…]e.50.makefs.sh#n7
19:05 bernie mtd: I've already asked him, he says he doesn't know what I'm talking about
19:06 cjb bernie: nod, thanks
19:07 dsd_ ah
19:07 i think they came from a mail by scott or mitch regarding block alignment
19:07 mtd bernie: err...you asked him about a file that I wrote, so not surprising :)
19:08 dsd_: thanks - IIRC (big if) the results of that email trail ended up somewhere aroudn http://wiki.laptop.org/go/How_[…]Device#How_to_win ...
19:08 dsd_: ...and together with http://thunk.org/tytso/blog/20[…]erase-block-size/ ...
19:09 dsd_: ...seem to be consistent with the numbers in http://dev.laptop.org/git/proj[…]mage.50.makefs.sh .
19:10 dsd_: I'm being told (and I don't know better) that some bioses don't like Cyl/Head numbers except one or two...
19:10 dsd_: ...and of course they're not the same as what's best for the flash :).  Since you/OLPC have the luxury of OFW, it's not an issue for you guys I guess.
19:10 dsd_ that seems unlikely - the BIOS doesnt read the partition table
19:11 mtd dsd_: we're just chatting about what C/H is best to use for SoaS pre-partitioned images.
19:11 dsd_: oh yeah...hmm...is it the bootloader real-mode code, then?  I thought *something* real early cared.
19:11 dsd_ well actually
19:11 i dont know how USB boot works
19:12 certainly for a hard disk boot a normal BIOS doesnt need to read the partition table
19:12 bernie mtd, dsd_: I got this info from a reliable source: H. Peter Anvin (the isolinux guy)
19:12 dsd_ what info?
19:13 mtd dsd_: I guess normal bios just runs the code in the mbr.  Hmm...I still need to understand more to understand what C/H numbers are "best".
19:13 dsd_: thx.
19:14 dsd_: "bernie> The only "standard" ones are 64 heads, 32 sectors and 255 heads, 63 sectors. -hpa"
19:14 "if we rewrite the mbr and partition table, we need to be careful to use one of the two CHS layouts that stupid buggy bios understand"
19:14 thinks that with the syslinux mbr we won't need to blat the partition table anyway....
19:14 dsd_ maybe by "buggy biso" he means "buggy MBR"
19:14 mtd ...but in some cases *we* (or livecd-tools) are the ones actually creating the table in the first place.
19:15 dsd_ i.e. the windows bootloader might get confused, or something
19:15 mtd dsd_: ah true.
19:15 dsd_: that'd be cool, then :)
19:17 dsd_ theres also the possibility that the BIOS reads it for no good reason
19:17 bit of a black box..
19:17 bernie dsd_, mtd: apparently, these numbers where on some crap consumer media like the iomega zip and bios writers of course felt the urge to hard-code the parameters of these devices in their boot code
19:18 dsd_, mtd: the bios reads the partition table to tell the difference between USB-ISO, USB-Floppy and USB-HD
19:18 dsd_ alright, a USB oddity then
19:18 cjb: ready
19:19 cjb dsd_: cool, what was it?
19:19 bernie because the ISO fs skips the first 2KB and the floppy and hd layouts can be intermixed with some clever tricks, there are tools around to create bootable USB sticks that work with all 3 methods
19:19 dsd_ cjb: had to wipe out the locale/ cache dir
19:19 and have system in english
19:20 bernie but they told me that some stupid bioses which would boot fine from USB-HD will be tricked into trying, say, the ISO way and then choke at some later steps.
19:20 promote an attitude of violence towards a bios engineer today
19:20 dsd_: wow
19:21 dsd_ apparently nobody else does activity dev on a non-english system
19:23 bernie dsd_: there are plenty of tools that fail on localized systems
19:24 dsd_: tools which run other programs and parse their output often assume english
19:24 dsd_: one such tools was live-iso-to-disk
19:33 mchua_afk: you did not #endmeeting
19:33 satellit_ Bernie: http://en.opensuse.org/SUSE_St[…]Disc_Image_Howtos
19:33 nice system
19:33 bernie satellit_: you have quite a culture on this :)
19:34 satellit_ * been my special interest  I tested with cyberorg
19:36 #endmeeting
19:37 * I thought mel set me up to do this :/
19:41 bernie satellit_: yes, she's the only one who can stop it now

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