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#sugar-newbies, 2016-11-21

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Time Nick Message
11:55 meeting <meeting!~sugaroid@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-newbies
17:18 meeting <meeting!~sugaroid@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-newbies
17:19 tony37 Anyway, there is a wide range of documentation on how to build 0.110, but I believe Sugar needs a clear image to be installed by dd so that non-developers can use it on PCs other than the XO
17:19 iamutkarshtiwari I agree
17:19 tony37 Yes. As a mentor I think you should be able to enter them
17:20 iamutkarshtiwari What's 'dd' ?
17:21 tony37 The dd command creates a copy of the source file on a target - working at the image level. It is used to install many distributions such as ubuntu.
17:22 A typical use might be dd if=/home/tony/sugar.iso of=/dev/sdb1 bs=4M
17:22 iamutkarshtiwari oh
17:22 tony37 The main problem for a non-technical person is the /dev/sdb1. This must be correct to avoid overwriting the system hard drive!
17:23 iamutkarshtiwari But we need to make sure that we create tasks that are not too difficult for kids new to open source
17:23 tony37 Ah! There's the problem.
17:24 iamutkarshtiwari Our main purpose is to help the get to understand open source technology to make them future ready to contribute to Sugar and other Open source projects
17:24 tony37 Last year we had many tasks to test individual Sugar activities against 13.2.5 (0.106) to see that they worked. So each task was simple. The hard part was to modify the activity to work.
17:25 Agreed. Specifically, to define tasks which are doable and so build confidence for the contributor
17:25 iamutkarshtiwari let's look into the points you proposed -
17:25 take this step by step. How about if you write up tasks for:
17:25 (1) Research the current state of Sugar on Debian
17:25 (2) Research the current state of Sugar on Ubuntu
17:25 (3) Build (and document) Sugar 110 on Debian
17:25 (4) Build (and document) Sugar 110 on Ubuntu
17:25 (5) Run (and document) a Sugar activity that runs outside of Sugar, e.g., Dimensions on Windows 10
17:25 (6) Research running Sugar in Windows 10
17:25 tony37 These are tasks provided by Walter Bender
17:25 iamutkarshtiwari *i just copy/pasted those points from Gmail ^
17:26 tony37 I got them in response to an email to Walter suggesting we find a way to leverage GCI to address this issue.
17:26 iamutkarshtiwari Dimensions is a JS activitiy?
17:26 Sounds good to me
17:26 tony37 This was a throw in, not directly related
17:27 iamutkarshtiwari oh
17:27 I can create a task for all of those proposed points
17:27 #evaluate
17:27 How do we evaluate for those tasks?
17:27 tony37 What we need to do is to define simpler challenges which can be clearly finished.
17:28 Debian - There is a Debian / Sugar project to add the Sugar packages to the Debian repository.
17:28 The research is to find out how to create an installable Debian image which includes Sugar
17:29 as a desktop
17:29 In principle, if that is possible - it should be possible to install Sugar as a desktop on Ubuntu
17:30 Items 3 and 4 address the issue of whether the Sugar packages in Debian match the 0.110 release
17:31 iamutkarshtiwari Sugar currently run on Ubuntu on virtualenv
17:31 runs*
17:32 tony37 I have only a little experience with that but I think it depends on Sugar being essentially Python.
17:33 iamutkarshtiwari I think if we try installing sugar using this tutorial (https://developer.sugarlabs.or[…]ironment.md.html) - on 'Debian'
17:33 it should run
17:33 yup
17:33 It something runs on ubuntu should run on Debian as well..
17:33 tony37 So if you try to do this on Debian, you will probably have to verify that the base distribution includes the non-python dependencies
17:34 iamutkarshtiwari http://askubuntu.com/questions[…]erent-from-debian
17:35 tony37 One of my concerns is version control. If you build this virtualenv from the development environment, how do you make sure it matches 0.110 and not a more recent version
17:35 iamutkarshtiwari http://askubuntu.com/a/1347
17:35 tony37 Another concern is to use the packages in the Debian repository since they are tested. However, again version control. How do we know the packages in the Debian repository match 0.110?
17:36 iamutkarshtiwari Is there any way to check which Sugar version is being used in 'sugar-build' repository on Github?
17:37 tony37 There should be. The idea of github is to tag branches corresponding to releases. I just don't know if the folks folding in PRs are taking care about that
17:38 I am also not sure if creating the development environment allows specifying a github branch to use
17:39 iamutkarshtiwari Is 0.110 the latest release?
17:40 tony37 So far as I know and I monitor Sugar-dev. https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.110 is the wiki page
17:41 Normally, James Cameron prepares XO images for a new even-numbered release but has not done so yet.
17:41 iamutkarshtiwari I'll confirm with Sam if they are serving the latest release of Sugar in Sugar-build
17:42 tony37 See http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Releases for his releases. 13.2.7 includes the 0.104 version of Sugar
17:43 iamutkarshtiwari I see..
17:45 I just found an old mail from Sam regarding the 0.110 release
17:45 October 9
17:46 I'll then go ahead with creating these tasks
17:47 tony37 Another reference: https://www.sugarlabs.org/ If you scroll down, you'll see a panel on Sugar on a Stick and Gnu/Linux. The latter has links to pages on Sugar for each of the distributions. I don't think these are current.
17:48 iamutkarshtiwari yes
17:48 they are the older versions
17:49 tony37 So let's step back for a moment and look at the big picture.
17:50 We need the sugarlabs front page to have a link to a 'Download' page which explains the easiest way for a user to download and install Sugar on their laptop as do most other projects.
17:51 Sugar is developed using the development environment. We need a way to tell developers how to make changes to Sugar and post them as PRs.
17:51 We need a clearly defined procedure to make an installable Sugar image from github corresponding to the 'nightly build' or to a specific release
17:52 Ideally, we could remove all of the obsolete pages on this topic to eliminate confusion
17:53 iamutkarshtiwari We can discuss these ideas with our community. But we can't hand over the maintainance of our website pages to GCI kids
17:53 tony37 As a strategy, we could focus on Sugar on a Stick by creating a Sugar image their that can be installed to a stick by dd. The stick could include livecd capability so that it can be run directly from the stick or installed on a laptop
17:54 iamutkarshtiwari Mr. Bender has already proposed a task of installing Sugar on a Stick
17:54 tony37 Agreed. The overall effort needs to be divided into small chunks. Much of it should be documentation of procedures.
17:55 iamutkarshtiwari Agreed
17:56 tony37 Currently Sugar on a Stick requires separate download of the livecd tools. These tools are then used to create the stick. The resulting stick, as far as I know, supports only livecd use.
17:56 iamutkarshtiwari How would we verify whether the student has actually performed the steps and setup the build?
17:56 tony37 So the task could be to create a livecd version which includes the ability to install on the host computer
17:57 He should provide a step by step procedure so we can do the install independently
17:57 iamutkarshtiwari We need to keep a check on plagariasm as well
17:58 tony37 Agreed. However, last year it was pretty clear who was doing what. As mentors, we have the responsibility to accept or reject submissions.
17:59 Last year, many tasks were to test a sugar activity against the current build (0.106) and make coding changes to get it to work as needed.
17:59 iamutkarshtiwari But we need to decide(specify) beforehand the evaluation criterion for each task.
18:00 Most of the tasks which we are proposing are mainly of testing and documentation. Not regariding making any changes to the code?
18:00 regarding*
18:00 tony37 The participant made the changes via git to the activity as a github project (in many cases moving the activity to github was part of the task. We checked by running the activity by making a local clone.
18:01 The tasks can be either coding or documentation or testing or a mix of those
18:02 So anyway, it was easy to track and evaluate these activity related tasks
18:02 iamutkarshtiwari Does any of the 6 tasks we are proposing above require coding?
18:02 tony37 If the task involves making the install procedure work it could at least require scripting.
18:03 Suppose a task is to install Sugar on Ubuntu 16.04. The first problem is probably going to be missing dependencies in the user's installed Ubuntu.
18:04 That will require finding and installing the dependencies - almost certainly at the command line level.
18:04 iamutkarshtiwari Agreed
18:04 Same with installing Sugar on Debian
18:05 tony37 Suppose the task is to make a container with Sugar and its dependencies. That could get technically heavy.
18:05 iamutkarshtiwari for that, they need to install debian on their systems first
18:05 tony37 Yes. Since they are working to have a prebuilt debian image with Sugar already installed as a desktop.
18:06 I like the idea of focusing the tasks on Debian - one additional benefit is having an Raspberry Pi image
18:07 iamutkarshtiwari What about Raspberry Pi image?
18:07 tony37 Raspbian - the OS for the Raspberry Pi is debian
18:08 iamutkarshtiwari Is sugar supported on Raspberry?
18:09 tony37 Not yet - having a Debian Sugar desktop would make it available. Technically, as far as I know, Sugar is not supported on any platform.
18:09 iamutkarshtiwari except Ububtu
18:10 tony37 Not on Ubuntu either
18:10 The closest we have to a supported product is Sugar on a Stick.
18:10 iamutkarshtiwari http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]ds#Do_you_use_GNU.2FLinux.3F
18:11 List of distros it's supported on ^
18:12 tony37 Support means that Sugar Labs would accept tickets and make fixes to problems. Essentially, these pages end up have the user install the version of Sugar included in the distro's repository. So, in effect, saying it is supported by the distro.
18:13 #Back to tasks
18:14 iamutkarshtiwari ok
18:14 1) & 2) - How do we evaluate on these tasks?
18:15 tony37 We don't need to submit the tasks as worded.
18:16 Task 1 is to look at the current state of Debian. (Task 2 is the same for Ubuntu - but I think we want to install on Ubuntu from the Debian package
18:17 Do you know what makes a set of packages into a 'desktop'?
18:17 iamutkarshtiwari No
18:18 tony37 A beginner's task is intended for a newbie. However, in a project, the beginning task is one that needs to be done before others.
18:19 So a newbie task could be to install Sugar following the directions on the Sugar website and report on any problems encountered.
18:20 iamutkarshtiwari ok
18:20 tony37 Success could be to have an installed Sugar (and use the settings to determine what 'about my computer' says) or to report on a blocking problem (as you have done with building the development environement
18:21 iamutkarshtiwari +!
18:21 +1*
18:21 tony37 A more challenging task could be to find the appropriate Debian forum and ask how to create a desktop from its repository
18:22 Success could be establishing a dialog with a Debian person who understands the repository and gives some ideas on how to build the desktop
18:22 iamutkarshtiwari You mean running Sugar over Ubuntu as a desktop environment like the Gnome-environment on Ubuntu?
18:23 tony37 Exactly. James Cameron has a version of Ubuntu + Sugar 0.106. It is based on Ubuntu 14.04 and requires amd 64.
18:24 iamutkarshtiwari http://imgur.com/a/obzdO
18:25 I have been assigned to these tasks ^
18:25 tony37 As mentor?
18:26 iamutkarshtiwari yes
18:26 But I can create more tasks
18:26 Those tasks which you can see were created by Mr. Bender
18:27 tony37 Install Sugar on a virtual machine is interesting
18:29 iamutkarshtiwari I can create 1) 2) 5) and 6) as new tasks
18:30 tony37 I am getting late for dinner. Why don't you write those up. Possibly also write up or enhance the description of the virtual machine task to specify Virtual Box on Windows 10.
18:30 iamutkarshtiwari Sure
18:31 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjPFfeBA2e8
18:31 tony37 One option is to allow multiple instances of a task so more than one participant can give it a try.
18:31 iamutkarshtiwari Is this you Mr. Anderson?
18:31 Sure
18:31 tony37 I'll be in Rwanda Wed morning. We can perhaps have another chat then.
18:32 Yes, tony37 is my nickname on irc (Tony Anderson).
18:32 iamutkarshtiwari sure I'll update you accordingly
18:32 Nopes, I mean I meant that person in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjPFfeBA2e8 is you?
18:33 This is your video ^, right?
18:33 tony37 Great! This is really a critical effort for the future of Sugar
18:33 Yes, that was done at the San Francisco Summit.
18:33 iamutkarshtiwari oh.. great!
18:33 I'll keep you updated :)
18:34 Enjoy your dinner ;)
18:34 tony37 Great! Bye
18:34 iamutkarshtiwari Bye
18:34 tony37 has quit IRC
18:35 iamutkarshtiwari has quit IRC

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