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#sugar-newbies, 2016-06-21

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Time Nick Message
11:03 meeting <meeting!~sugaroid@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-newbies
14:30 tony37 <tony37!~tony@> has joined #sugar-newbies
14:31 tony37 hello
14:37 icarito hi tony37
14:38 I understand utkarsh is concerned about passing the midterm because he's been focused on jsfiddler more than the proposed projects
14:39 since they are all ideas of your I suppose it's up to you ;-)
14:45 tony37 The midterm should be no problem
14:46 However, we do need to get on with it. His version 13 was very close. Unfortunately, it took a big step back with version 14.
14:47 He is trying to incorporate html5print in the bundle (as needed). However, he apparently had some modules still on his system and so felt that he had succeeded when the bundle itself was missing the modules.
14:48 He is starting to look at the 'save as' feature.
14:48 icarito yes html5print depends on beautiful soup 4 I think
14:48 yes I think it's wise to focus on his proposed project
14:49 also I insist jsfiddler has close to zero chance of being merged so I propose you instead make a new activity
14:49 tony37 It failed on a 'tinycss2' module. If bs4 is required then we aren't gaining much over just using BeautifulSoup
14:49 It will be merged if it works.
14:49 icarito `pip show html5print` outputs (among other stuff):
14:49 Requires: requests, chardet, beautifulsoup4, ply, slimit, tinycss2, html5lib
14:50 tony37 The reason he is not using BeautifulSoup is that it doesn't appear to pretty print css
14:50 icarito tony37, it's not just about working, but UI design - sugar's supposed to be about simplicity but this feature is a bit of a corner case, and also the icons are hideous ;-)
14:51 tony37 Icons can be fixed. Let me know which ones you think need to be changed.
14:51 icarito for example there's a folder icon with a 3D look - this goes against Sugar UI guidelines
14:52 tony37 OK - I agree - no need to tax our overworked Xos
14:52 icarito I don't think it will be merged if it doesn't at least look nice
14:52 tony37 That is reasonable.
14:53 icarito the diskette icon is also pretty un-sugarlike
14:54 basically all of the icons need rethinking imho
14:55 tony37 OK - icons are easy to change. In version 13, the buttons generally worked as expected.
14:55 icarito "view page source" has a terminal icon with curves
14:55 tony37 Do we have a 'view source' icon?
14:56 icarito yes there's an action icon in sugar-artwork - it's a gear
14:56 tony37 We used the 'gear' for the main button
14:57 icarito so I'm thinking this functionality could go in the 'view' toolbar if you're serious about integrating it
14:57 'view' 'source'
14:57 tony37 I would like the main button to represent 'developer tools'
14:58 icarito have the maintainers given a possibility of merging or are we just being stubborn?
14:58 if not, we should drop this and either make a new activity or you'll need to maintain a fork
14:58 tony37 I don't know who does what in this area - I am not a developer. My understanding is that a PR is made and then considered by somebody.
14:58 icarito developer tools are a sub-sub-menu item in chromium
14:59 tony37 I already customize Browse - I don't consider it a fork
14:59 They are also in Firefox
14:59 icarito yes you should go a step further and consider who and why reviews your PR
14:59 and under what criteria
14:59 so I don't think Sam is interested in merging this and I don't see others interested either
15:00 tony37 It would be nice if this procedure were made more clear. We are inviting these folks to contribute
15:00 icarito there's no way to force them to do it so I'm concerned this work will be lost
15:01 tony37 It won't be lost, but it would be a waste of resources to not consider it. I'll, of course, deploy it myself in any case.
15:01 icarito it's pretty clear, this is a volunteer driven project so things get merged if there's consensus
15:02 tony37 There is no clear process to reach a consensus. It just is done by the release manager by fiat as far as I can tell.
15:02 However with the PR process as Walter has pointed out, there will be accountability for the decision.
15:03 But, first things first. There is currently no PR to consider as it is still a work in progress.
15:08 icarito sorry I might've missed your response my connection got interrupted
15:09 tony37 ^
15:09 iamutkarshtiwari <iamutkarshtiwari!0e8bee62@gateway/web/freenode/ip.> has joined #sugar-newbies
15:09 tony37 I think we should worry about reviews of the PR after it is completed. We need Utkarsh to get it done.
15:09 iamutkarshtiwari Hello
15:09 Sorry for being late
15:10 tony37 Hi, Utkarsh.
15:10 iamutkarshtiwari Internet conncetion at my place went down for a while
15:10 I am using irc on phone
15:10 icarito ouch
15:10 tony37 Do you have a version of Browse for me to try?
15:11 iamutkarshtiwari I figured out the problem with the 14 version
15:11 icarito really tony37 you should document what this is supposed to do I don't understand what buttons are supposed to do
15:12 iamutkarshtiwari I'll update you with the xo by tonight
15:12 tony37 Agreed. 'You' as in Utkarsh.
15:12 Utkarsh: Great
15:12 icarito I see a view source (label, with a terminal icon) that opens the source - then I see a play icon (that says 'Run') and it opens up a jsfiddler - then there are two object chooser icons that don't seem to work at all for me
15:13 iamutkarshtiwari Oh...that doesnt looks good.
15:13 icarito but is utkarsh programming this because he proposed it? you proposed it and as far as I can tell it's your design so docs are kind of part of requirements
15:13 iamutkarshtiwari I can replace the icons if required.
15:13 icarito: which two icons aren't working?
15:13 tony37 Breifly, the first button opens a new tab in the 'fiddler' mode. The second icon opens an objectchooser to select an html (folder) to load, the third closes the session (saving it to the Journal), the add image, adds an image by object chooser, and the view source shows the source.
15:14 icarito yes I was just discussing this with tony37 - 'if required' - your contributions should comply with Sugar HIG guidelines -
15:14 tony37, so the second button depends on having used the third button previously then
15:14 tony37 This project is as much my design as any project starting from our proposal request. The main work was done last year in GSOC15 by Richa Sehgal. Utkarsh is integrating into the browse so the work is available for use.
15:15 Is there a current version of HIG. Much of Sugar no longer conforms to the original.
15:15 icarito tony37, iamutkarshtiwari and I have observed little will to merge this into browse from current browse maintainers
15:15 tony37 So?
15:16 icarito I guess not all of them apply but some do (such as icons) : https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]erface_Guidelines
15:16 Sugar is about simplicity, collaboration and reflection -
15:16 tony37 OK - once the functionality is complete, we can certainly look at that issue.
15:16 icarito so the third and second should be swapped and similar looking icons should be used
15:17 *position should be swapped
15:17 iamutkarshtiwari tony37: If we all agree, we can write a new activity for JS Fiddle and merge the current code into that. Sugar community will readily accept that.
15:17 tony37 I am not sure I understand you. Put save before open?
15:17 We don't all agree. I would prefer to leave that discussion when a PR is presented ready for merger.
15:17 icarito even the fact that we have 'save' and 'open' are against Sugar HIG, tony37
15:18 iamutkarshtiwari icarito: Could you please provide me a link from I can download Sugar HIG compatible icons?
15:18 tony37 I am sorry, but there is nothing in the HIG to prevent functionality. It is not a crippling requirement.
15:18 icarito iamutkarshtiwari, well look into your sugar-artwork folder
15:19 tony37 Notice that Turtle Blocks and Write both save in many different formats
15:19 icarito here's what it says about icons: https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]r_Interface/Icons
15:20 iamutkarshtiwari icarito: If someone is interested in adding new icons to Sugar-Artwork, how shall he proceed?
15:20 tony37 This page references Sugar activity icons not icons within an activity.
15:21 icarito iamutkarshtiwari, a pull request to https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-artwork of course ;-)
15:22 iamutkarshtiwari Nopes, I meant how shall he design the icons, what parameters shall he keep in minds or what kind of icons shall he choose from an onlinr icon store?
15:22 icarito although activity-specific icons need to go inside your activity under /icons/
15:26 sorry my internet is having issues too
15:26 last i said is:  although activity-specific icons need to go inside your activity under /icons/
15:26 <icarito> my internet connection is having issues
15:26 <icarito> tony37, note in TurtleArt, `save` does go before `load`
15:27 iamutkarshtiwari, you shuld really look at other activities and reuse / modify some of those icons
15:27 tony37 I understand. I don't think it is relevant. In that case, you have a separate load for projects (pre-existing) where the save is to save the current project being worked on.
15:28 The idea of open is that the user may have prepared the html file via a text editor and wants to open it to test it in fiddler mode. The save is to save the final version. This, of course, is necessary because Browse does not save content to  the Journal, only URLS,
15:29 icarito tony37, what text editor?
15:29 iamutkarsh <iamutkarsh!0e8bee62@gateway/web/freenode/ip.> has joined #sugar-newbies
15:29 tony37 I use nano but it could be gedit or write
15:30 icarito i still don't understand the use scenario of this feature I'd love reading a use case
15:30 it's not obvious to me and I'm trying to help
15:30 ;-)
15:30 iamutkarsh tony37: What was the problem you were with that screenshot gif making technique I shared?
15:31 iamutkarshtiwari has quit IRC
15:31 tony37 I have on the schoolserver a creative commons text on doing web pages. If the user takes an example from the text and creates it by copy and paste, they may want to see if it works in 'fiddle' mode. They also may be satisfied with opening it with a file: url.
15:31 iamutkarsh icarito: Are we taking about editing 'html' project using an external editor for JS Fiddler?
15:32 tony37 My internet provider (free from the campground) blocks the download.
15:32 icarito iamutkarsh, tony37 - actions that can't be performed should be greyed out instead of having an alert
15:32 tony37 yes
15:32 Yes - but what are you referring to?
15:33 icarito oh I understand now - 'play' opens a web console and it also runs the content of it
15:33 that's really really confusing guys
15:33 tony37 How is it confusing?
15:33 You think we should have separate buttons to start the mode and another to refresh the output?
15:33 icarito 'it looks like web console is not open.You can only open a file from web console'
15:33 yes of course!
15:34 i would'nt have thought of it
15:34 tony37 Yes, we thought about opening the current html file in the tab in fiddler mode, but that is beyond the scope so it opens a new empty tab.
15:34 icarito in fact, I think the action shuld be triggered from the jsfiddle page itself
15:34 the run action
15:35 a big fat run button in jsfiddler page
15:35 tony37 So the 'play' button sets fiddler mode and a separate button (try it) is in the page.
15:35 kevix <kevix!~kevin@pool-100-2-86-213.nycmny.fios.verizon.net> has joined #sugar-newbies
15:35 icarito I see no separate icon in the page
15:35 only a button to open the console
15:36 tony37 The idea is to open the palette per Sugar practice with a set of buttons to control fiddler execution.
15:36 iamutkarsh tony37: There is no 'try it' button in the fiddler webpage as far as I remember.
15:37 tony37 I think Icarito is proposing it.
15:38 icarito i'm saying overloading the 'open web console' icon with 'run' is confusing - I would've expected this to be in the canvas or as a separate icon
15:38 tony37, also, browser developer tools usually relate to the page at hand, not a new page
15:38 that's another point for making this a jsfiddle activity
15:39 although exporting webpages is argueably a nice feature for browse
15:39 there is a standard for that by the way, look at .mhtml files
15:39 (which are basically the same as these zip files)
15:39 tony37 We could have the user open a tab and then enable fiddler mode. It just seemed easier to combine the steps.
15:40 icarito https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHTML
15:40 tony37 I don't know about this 'standard'. It isn't used by Zim Desktop or other applications that create a website.
15:41 icarito tony37, firefox can safe webpages with it
15:41 it will include the images etc and replace links for relative links
15:41 tony37 I am not at all sure we can comply with external standards. Firefox is a good example. We can't do what they do.
15:42 However, Firefox can recursively save multipage websites.
15:42 Actually, I use scratchpad for this. I don't know that it has any standard format for saving other than its own.
15:43 icarito perhaps this is not the only standard but it's a standard we're not inventing
15:43 tony37 We are allowed to invent
15:45 This meeting is running long. I really wish we had time to discuss the future projects that Utkarsh should now be getting into.
15:45 icarito okay so it's not important, but then again, we have no zip handler in sugar
15:45 yes according to his proposal he should've been on them since the beginning
15:45 tony37 I found that out the hard way. I have to add it to my image.
15:46 icarito tony37, save and load are in the activity toolbar in turtleart
15:46 and note there is a 'save as pdf' button in Browse activity toolbar already
15:46 tony37 It also has to be added to the mime_types handled by Browse.
15:46 icarito ouch that would be bad
15:46 it means clicking ont .zip will open jsfiddler
15:47 tony37 No, when the user opens the object from the Journal, if it is a zip it will be unzipped and the index.html displayed. This now works whether fiddler is enabled or not.
15:48 icarito so I would move 'save page zip bundle' and 'load zip bundle' to the activity toolbar just like turtleart has
15:48 that feature by itself might get merged
15:48 tony37, I mean it would be very bad if all zip are assumed to be web archives
15:48 confusing because the majority of zips are not websites
15:48 and fundamentally broken
15:50 tony37 I don't understand where this is going. Currently Browse does not handle zip files except to install .xo bundles. So when opening a zip file in Browse, a browser, it is reasonable to expect it to contain a displayable web page.
15:50 icarito if we're going to invent, lets call things with new names then
15:50 but if you add the zip mimetype to browse (and there are no other zip handling activities) then every zip in the journal will get open by browse
15:50 that's the confusing part
15:51 that's why .xo files are not called .zip files
15:51 tony37 I don't have a name. On goodle, it is usually referred to as a 'web site'.
15:51 Yes, if the user clicks on open and selects the object.
15:51 icarito so then if you have to invent a .zip website then call it .zwebsite
15:51 (because i guess .mhtml is too standard ;-)
15:53 tony37, in the end this internship depends on you so you might do as you please as it will be you who approves the end result
15:55 tony37 has quit IRC
15:58 iamutkarsh #endmeeting
15:59 iamutkarsh has quit IRC
16:00 icarito sorry I lost my connection again
16:00 i'm pasting back what I think you missed
16:00 tony37, in the end this internship depends on you so you might do as you please as it will be you who approves the end result
16:00 <icarito> I'm just trying to help you get things into sugar and I think this insistence on adding this feature to browse either (a) requires a lot more work or (b) should really go into a new activity
16:00 <icarito> I'm inclined for (b) as Sam suggested, it is the path of least resistance
16:01 ouch

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