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| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 11:03 | meeting <meeting!~sugaroid rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-newbies |
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| 14:30 | tony37 <tony37!~tony194.152.247.2> has joined #sugar-newbies |
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| 14:31 | tony37 | hello |
| 14:37 | icarito | hi tony37 |
| 14:38 | I understand utkarsh is concerned about passing the midterm because he's been focused on jsfiddler more than the proposed projects | |
| 14:39 | since they are all ideas of your I suppose it's up to you ;-) | |
| 14:45 | tony37 | The midterm should be no problem |
| 14:46 | However, we do need to get on with it. His version 13 was very close. Unfortunately, it took a big step back with version 14. | |
| 14:47 | He is trying to incorporate html5print in the bundle (as needed). However, he apparently had some modules still on his system and so felt that he had succeeded when the bundle itself was missing the modules. | |
| 14:48 | He is starting to look at the 'save as' feature. | |
| 14:48 | icarito | yes html5print depends on beautiful soup 4 I think |
| 14:48 | yes I think it's wise to focus on his proposed project | |
| 14:49 | also I insist jsfiddler has close to zero chance of being merged so I propose you instead make a new activity | |
| 14:49 | tony37 | It failed on a 'tinycss2' module. If bs4 is required then we aren't gaining much over just using BeautifulSoup |
| 14:49 | It will be merged if it works. | |
| 14:49 | icarito | `pip show html5print` outputs (among other stuff): |
| 14:49 | Requires: requests, chardet, beautifulsoup4, ply, slimit, tinycss2, html5lib | |
| 14:50 | tony37 | The reason he is not using BeautifulSoup is that it doesn't appear to pretty print css |
| 14:50 | icarito | tony37, it's not just about working, but UI design - sugar's supposed to be about simplicity but this feature is a bit of a corner case, and also the icons are hideous ;-) |
| 14:51 | tony37 | Icons can be fixed. Let me know which ones you think need to be changed. |
| 14:51 | icarito | for example there's a folder icon with a 3D look - this goes against Sugar UI guidelines |
| 14:52 | tony37 | OK - I agree - no need to tax our overworked Xos |
| 14:52 | icarito | I don't think it will be merged if it doesn't at least look nice |
| 14:52 | tony37 | That is reasonable. |
| 14:53 | icarito | the diskette icon is also pretty un-sugarlike |
| 14:54 | basically all of the icons need rethinking imho | |
| 14:55 | tony37 | OK - icons are easy to change. In version 13, the buttons generally worked as expected. |
| 14:55 | icarito | "view page source" has a terminal icon with curves |
| 14:55 | tony37 | Do we have a 'view source' icon? |
| 14:56 | icarito | yes there's an action icon in sugar-artwork - it's a gear |
| 14:56 | tony37 | We used the 'gear' for the main button |
| 14:57 | icarito | so I'm thinking this functionality could go in the 'view' toolbar if you're serious about integrating it |
| 14:57 | 'view' 'source' | |
| 14:57 | tony37 | I would like the main button to represent 'developer tools' |
| 14:58 | icarito | have the maintainers given a possibility of merging or are we just being stubborn? |
| 14:58 | if not, we should drop this and either make a new activity or you'll need to maintain a fork | |
| 14:58 | tony37 | I don't know who does what in this area - I am not a developer. My understanding is that a PR is made and then considered by somebody. |
| 14:58 | icarito | developer tools are a sub-sub-menu item in chromium |
| 14:59 | tony37 | I already customize Browse - I don't consider it a fork |
| 14:59 | They are also in Firefox | |
| 14:59 | icarito | yes you should go a step further and consider who and why reviews your PR |
| 14:59 | and under what criteria | |
| 14:59 | so I don't think Sam is interested in merging this and I don't see others interested either | |
| 15:00 | tony37 | It would be nice if this procedure were made more clear. We are inviting these folks to contribute |
| 15:00 | icarito | there's no way to force them to do it so I'm concerned this work will be lost |
| 15:01 | tony37 | It won't be lost, but it would be a waste of resources to not consider it. I'll, of course, deploy it myself in any case. |
| 15:01 | icarito | it's pretty clear, this is a volunteer driven project so things get merged if there's consensus |
| 15:02 | tony37 | There is no clear process to reach a consensus. It just is done by the release manager by fiat as far as I can tell. |
| 15:02 | However with the PR process as Walter has pointed out, there will be accountability for the decision. | |
| 15:03 | But, first things first. There is currently no PR to consider as it is still a work in progress. | |
| 15:08 | icarito | sorry I might've missed your response my connection got interrupted |
| 15:09 | tony37 ^ | |
| 15:09 | iamutkarshtiwari <iamutkarshtiwari!0e8bee62gateway/web/freenode/ip.14.139.238.98> has joined #sugar-newbies |
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| 15:09 | tony37 | I think we should worry about reviews of the PR after it is completed. We need Utkarsh to get it done. |
| 15:09 | iamutkarshtiwari | Hello |
| 15:09 | Sorry for being late | |
| 15:10 | tony37 | Hi, Utkarsh. |
| 15:10 | iamutkarshtiwari | Internet conncetion at my place went down for a while |
| 15:10 | I am using irc on phone | |
| 15:10 | icarito | ouch |
| 15:10 | tony37 | Do you have a version of Browse for me to try? |
| 15:11 | iamutkarshtiwari | I figured out the problem with the 14 version |
| 15:11 | icarito | really tony37 you should document what this is supposed to do I don't understand what buttons are supposed to do |
| 15:12 | iamutkarshtiwari | I'll update you with the xo by tonight |
| 15:12 | tony37 | Agreed. 'You' as in Utkarsh. |
| 15:12 | Utkarsh: Great | |
| 15:12 | icarito | I see a view source (label, with a terminal icon) that opens the source - then I see a play icon (that says 'Run') and it opens up a jsfiddler - then there are two object chooser icons that don't seem to work at all for me |
| 15:13 | iamutkarshtiwari | Oh...that doesnt looks good. |
| 15:13 | icarito | but is utkarsh programming this because he proposed it? you proposed it and as far as I can tell it's your design so docs are kind of part of requirements |
| 15:13 | iamutkarshtiwari | I can replace the icons if required. |
| 15:13 | icarito: which two icons aren't working? | |
| 15:13 | tony37 | Breifly, the first button opens a new tab in the 'fiddler' mode. The second icon opens an objectchooser to select an html (folder) to load, the third closes the session (saving it to the Journal), the add image, adds an image by object chooser, and the view source shows the source. |
| 15:14 | icarito | yes I was just discussing this with tony37 - 'if required' - your contributions should comply with Sugar HIG guidelines - |
| 15:14 | tony37, so the second button depends on having used the third button previously then | |
| 15:14 | tony37 | This project is as much my design as any project starting from our proposal request. The main work was done last year in GSOC15 by Richa Sehgal. Utkarsh is integrating into the browse so the work is available for use. |
| 15:15 | Is there a current version of HIG. Much of Sugar no longer conforms to the original. | |
| 15:15 | icarito | tony37, iamutkarshtiwari and I have observed little will to merge this into browse from current browse maintainers |
| 15:15 | tony37 | So? |
| 15:16 | icarito | I guess not all of them apply but some do (such as icons) : https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]erface_Guidelines |
| 15:16 | Sugar is about simplicity, collaboration and reflection - | |
| 15:16 | tony37 | OK - once the functionality is complete, we can certainly look at that issue. |
| 15:16 | icarito | so the third and second should be swapped and similar looking icons should be used |
| 15:17 | *position should be swapped | |
| 15:17 | iamutkarshtiwari | tony37: If we all agree, we can write a new activity for JS Fiddle and merge the current code into that. Sugar community will readily accept that. |
| 15:17 | tony37 | I am not sure I understand you. Put save before open? |
| 15:17 | We don't all agree. I would prefer to leave that discussion when a PR is presented ready for merger. | |
| 15:17 | icarito | even the fact that we have 'save' and 'open' are against Sugar HIG, tony37 |
| 15:18 | iamutkarshtiwari | icarito: Could you please provide me a link from I can download Sugar HIG compatible icons? |
| 15:18 | tony37 | I am sorry, but there is nothing in the HIG to prevent functionality. It is not a crippling requirement. |
| 15:18 | icarito | iamutkarshtiwari, well look into your sugar-artwork folder |
| 15:19 | tony37 | Notice that Turtle Blocks and Write both save in many different formats |
| 15:19 | icarito | here's what it says about icons: https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]r_Interface/Icons |
| 15:20 | iamutkarshtiwari | icarito: If someone is interested in adding new icons to Sugar-Artwork, how shall he proceed? |
| 15:20 | tony37 | This page references Sugar activity icons not icons within an activity. |
| 15:21 | icarito | iamutkarshtiwari, a pull request to https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-artwork of course ;-) |
| 15:22 | iamutkarshtiwari | Nopes, I meant how shall he design the icons, what parameters shall he keep in minds or what kind of icons shall he choose from an onlinr icon store? |
| 15:22 | icarito | although activity-specific icons need to go inside your activity under /icons/ |
| 15:26 | sorry my internet is having issues too | |
| 15:26 | last i said is: although activity-specific icons need to go inside your activity under /icons/ | |
| 15:26 | <icarito> my internet connection is having issues | |
| 15:26 | <icarito> tony37, note in TurtleArt, `save` does go before `load` | |
| 15:27 | iamutkarshtiwari, you shuld really look at other activities and reuse / modify some of those icons | |
| 15:27 | tony37 | I understand. I don't think it is relevant. In that case, you have a separate load for projects (pre-existing) where the save is to save the current project being worked on. |
| 15:28 | The idea of open is that the user may have prepared the html file via a text editor and wants to open it to test it in fiddler mode. The save is to save the final version. This, of course, is necessary because Browse does not save content to the Journal, only URLS, | |
| 15:29 | icarito | tony37, what text editor? |
| 15:29 | iamutkarsh <iamutkarsh!0e8bee62gateway/web/freenode/ip.14.139.238.98> has joined #sugar-newbies |
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| 15:29 | tony37 | I use nano but it could be gedit or write |
| 15:30 | icarito | i still don't understand the use scenario of this feature I'd love reading a use case |
| 15:30 | it's not obvious to me and I'm trying to help | |
| 15:30 | ;-) | |
| 15:30 | iamutkarsh | tony37: What was the problem you were with that screenshot gif making technique I shared? |
| 15:31 | iamutkarshtiwari has quit IRC | |
| 15:31 | tony37 | I have on the schoolserver a creative commons text on doing web pages. If the user takes an example from the text and creates it by copy and paste, they may want to see if it works in 'fiddle' mode. They also may be satisfied with opening it with a file: url. |
| 15:31 | iamutkarsh | icarito: Are we taking about editing 'html' project using an external editor for JS Fiddler? |
| 15:32 | tony37 | My internet provider (free from the campground) blocks the download. |
| 15:32 | icarito | iamutkarsh, tony37 - actions that can't be performed should be greyed out instead of having an alert |
| 15:32 | tony37 | yes |
| 15:32 | Yes - but what are you referring to? | |
| 15:33 | icarito | oh I understand now - 'play' opens a web console and it also runs the content of it |
| 15:33 | that's really really confusing guys | |
| 15:33 | tony37 | How is it confusing? |
| 15:33 | You think we should have separate buttons to start the mode and another to refresh the output? | |
| 15:33 | icarito | 'it looks like web console is not open.You can only open a file from web console' |
| 15:33 | yes of course! | |
| 15:34 | i would'nt have thought of it | |
| 15:34 | tony37 | Yes, we thought about opening the current html file in the tab in fiddler mode, but that is beyond the scope so it opens a new empty tab. |
| 15:34 | icarito | in fact, I think the action shuld be triggered from the jsfiddle page itself |
| 15:34 | the run action | |
| 15:35 | a big fat run button in jsfiddler page | |
| 15:35 | tony37 | So the 'play' button sets fiddler mode and a separate button (try it) is in the page. |
| 15:35 | kevix <kevix!~kevinpool-100-2-86-213.nycmny.fios.verizon.net> has joined #sugar-newbies |
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| 15:35 | icarito | I see no separate icon in the page |
| 15:35 | only a button to open the console | |
| 15:36 | tony37 | The idea is to open the palette per Sugar practice with a set of buttons to control fiddler execution. |
| 15:36 | iamutkarsh | tony37: There is no 'try it' button in the fiddler webpage as far as I remember. |
| 15:37 | tony37 | I think Icarito is proposing it. |
| 15:38 | icarito | i'm saying overloading the 'open web console' icon with 'run' is confusing - I would've expected this to be in the canvas or as a separate icon |
| 15:38 | tony37, also, browser developer tools usually relate to the page at hand, not a new page | |
| 15:38 | that's another point for making this a jsfiddle activity | |
| 15:39 | although exporting webpages is argueably a nice feature for browse | |
| 15:39 | there is a standard for that by the way, look at .mhtml files | |
| 15:39 | (which are basically the same as these zip files) | |
| 15:39 | tony37 | We could have the user open a tab and then enable fiddler mode. It just seemed easier to combine the steps. |
| 15:40 | icarito | https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MHTML |
| 15:40 | tony37 | I don't know about this 'standard'. It isn't used by Zim Desktop or other applications that create a website. |
| 15:41 | icarito | tony37, firefox can safe webpages with it |
| 15:41 | it will include the images etc and replace links for relative links | |
| 15:41 | tony37 | I am not at all sure we can comply with external standards. Firefox is a good example. We can't do what they do. |
| 15:42 | However, Firefox can recursively save multipage websites. | |
| 15:42 | Actually, I use scratchpad for this. I don't know that it has any standard format for saving other than its own. | |
| 15:43 | icarito | perhaps this is not the only standard but it's a standard we're not inventing |
| 15:43 | tony37 | We are allowed to invent |
| 15:45 | This meeting is running long. I really wish we had time to discuss the future projects that Utkarsh should now be getting into. | |
| 15:45 | icarito | okay so it's not important, but then again, we have no zip handler in sugar |
| 15:45 | yes according to his proposal he should've been on them since the beginning | |
| 15:45 | tony37 | I found that out the hard way. I have to add it to my image. |
| 15:46 | icarito | tony37, save and load are in the activity toolbar in turtleart |
| 15:46 | and note there is a 'save as pdf' button in Browse activity toolbar already | |
| 15:46 | tony37 | It also has to be added to the mime_types handled by Browse. |
| 15:46 | icarito | ouch that would be bad |
| 15:46 | it means clicking ont .zip will open jsfiddler | |
| 15:47 | tony37 | No, when the user opens the object from the Journal, if it is a zip it will be unzipped and the index.html displayed. This now works whether fiddler is enabled or not. |
| 15:48 | icarito | so I would move 'save page zip bundle' and 'load zip bundle' to the activity toolbar just like turtleart has |
| 15:48 | that feature by itself might get merged | |
| 15:48 | tony37, I mean it would be very bad if all zip are assumed to be web archives | |
| 15:48 | confusing because the majority of zips are not websites | |
| 15:48 | and fundamentally broken | |
| 15:50 | tony37 | I don't understand where this is going. Currently Browse does not handle zip files except to install .xo bundles. So when opening a zip file in Browse, a browser, it is reasonable to expect it to contain a displayable web page. |
| 15:50 | icarito | if we're going to invent, lets call things with new names then |
| 15:50 | but if you add the zip mimetype to browse (and there are no other zip handling activities) then every zip in the journal will get open by browse | |
| 15:50 | that's the confusing part | |
| 15:51 | that's why .xo files are not called .zip files | |
| 15:51 | tony37 | I don't have a name. On goodle, it is usually referred to as a 'web site'. |
| 15:51 | Yes, if the user clicks on open and selects the object. | |
| 15:51 | icarito | so then if you have to invent a .zip website then call it .zwebsite |
| 15:51 | (because i guess .mhtml is too standard ;-) | |
| 15:53 | tony37, in the end this internship depends on you so you might do as you please as it will be you who approves the end result | |
| 15:55 | tony37 has quit IRC | |
| 15:58 | iamutkarsh | #endmeeting |
| 15:59 | iamutkarsh has quit IRC | |
| 16:00 | icarito | sorry I lost my connection again |
| 16:00 | i'm pasting back what I think you missed | |
| 16:00 | tony37, in the end this internship depends on you so you might do as you please as it will be you who approves the end result | |
| 16:00 | <icarito> I'm just trying to help you get things into sugar and I think this insistence on adding this feature to browse either (a) requires a lot more work or (b) should really go into a new activity | |
| 16:00 | <icarito> I'm inclined for (b) as Sam suggested, it is the path of least resistance | |
| 16:01 | ouch |
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