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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2020-02-05 18:55:36

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18:55 meeting Meeting started Wed Feb  5 18:55:36 2020 UTC. The chair is Quozl. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:55 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
18:55 Quozl #topic waiting for start time and quorum
18:55 pro-panda ping
18:56 llaske <llaske!~llaske@2a01cb00074daf00593f222bf49​241e1.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr> has joined #sugar-meeting
18:56 Quozl pro-panda: hello.
18:57 pro-panda Quozl: Hello
18:58 ibiam <ibiam!~myirc@> has joined #sugar-meeting
18:59 Quozl ibiam: hello.
18:59 ibiam Quozl: hi.
18:59 Quozl llaske: hello.
18:59 MrBIOS: hello.
18:59 MrBIOS Good morning, I’m alive.
19:00 llaske hi all
19:00 MrBIOS I’m glad we were all able to make this time
19:00 Quozl #topic election of chair
19:00 we have quorum, let's begin.
19:00 we don't have devin or claidia as far as i can see.
19:00 i'm happy to be chair again, but i need you to choose me.
19:01 any other offers to be chair of the board?
19:01 ibiam I thought Alex was chair?
19:01 MrBIOS ibiam: nopw
19:01 nope
19:01 Quozl not to my knowledge, ibiam.
19:01 ibiam Okay.
19:01 MrBIOS We can give them 1-2 minutes, can we not? I’m happy with your performance as Chair, and would happily have you again in that role.
19:01 Quozl https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]t_Board/Decisions 2018-10
19:01 ibiam MrBIOS: +1
19:02 Quozl motion: james cameron to chair oversight board meetings, moved by alex, seconded by ibiam.  all in favour?  the late people can catch up.
19:03 pro-panda I'm in favor
19:03 llaske +1
19:03 Quozl motion agreed.
19:03 #topic induction of new board members
19:04 now, let's briefly tell ibiam and rahul what their responsibilities are and how to operate effectively on the board?
19:04 MrBIOS please.
19:05 Quozl i think my key advice is that "silence is not consent, it means you are missing in action".  we don't drop the responsibility to communicate once we send an e-mail, because e-mail is unreliable.
19:06 Claudia <Claudia!~webchat@> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:06 Quozl we can decide things as a board by e-mail, but our standing rule is that a motion once put by e-mail must have a response within a week, or we drop it.
19:06 ibiam Claudia: hi.
19:06 Claudia hi everyone
19:06 Quozl Claudia: thanks for joining.  we have elected a chair (me), and are working briefly on induction of new board members.
19:06 Claudia ok
19:06 MrBIOS yes, and asking questions is encouraged. Also, because you brought up an idea a year ago, doesn’t mean everyone else remembers it, so don’t bring the baggage of “it wasn’t approved last time, so it’s not worth bringing up again” with you, would be my advice.
19:07 Quozl in general people don't read mail in full, so sometimes we have to come to a meeting to agree on something.
19:08 ibiam I understand that every member has the right to remain silent on anything they choose to but what if that happens regularly?
19:08 Quozl ibiam, rahul, the organisation you've joined is a project of the software freedom conservancy, and devin is our liaison to the conservancy, and may have other things to say about that.  key is that devin is the channel through which we must communicate.
19:08 ibiam: in the same way that a member of the board has the duty to attend meetings, they also have the duty to answer mails in neutral; like "i've nothing to say".
19:09 ibiam Quozl: And if that is recurring especially?
19:09 Quozl ibiam: then that board member should be removed by the board.
19:09 ibiam s/especially/
19:10 MrBIOS right, acknwoledging that you’ve seen a particular e-mail is important, even if you don’t feel strongly about it and have no feedback, so we know you’ve at least seen it. It does happen, yes.
19:10 Claudia it would be good to summarize these points... on duties and important ways to interact
19:11 Quozl Claudia: yes, i agree.  i'm happy to move on to next topic now.
19:11 MrBIOS agreed. I would also recommend that you both review the SLOB mailing list archives yourselves, so you get an idea of the type of things that might be brought up via e-mail.
19:11 Quozl #topic appointment of liaison to the membership and elections committee
19:11 MrBIOS You can do so at http://lists.sugarlabs.org/private/slobs/
19:11 Quozl yes, the slobs mailing list archives are open to you now.
19:12 pro-panda My understanding was that we've moved away from being an SFC project ?
19:12 Quozl pro-panda: yes, but we haven't finished moving away.
19:12 MrBIOS pro-panda: it’s a lengthy process, we can send you the executed agreement with them for your review.
19:12 Quozl pro-panda: the new organisation has not yet chosen how to elect their board, and are starting with a board consisting of a few of the board of this organisation.
19:13 pro-panda MrBIOS: sure, Thank you
19:13 Quozl pro-panda: we expect as things develop that we'll learn more.
19:14 MrBIOS pro-panda: that agreement is also available in the SLOBs mailing list archive above.
19:14 pro-panda Quozl: Okay
19:14 Quozl motion: ibiam to be the board liaison for the membership and elections committee.
19:14 Claudia second
19:14 MrBIOS yeah, just don’t be afraid to ask questions, even if you might categorize them as “stupid”
19:14 Quozl all in favour?  ibiam has been on the board for a while.
19:14 llaske +1
19:14 MrBIOS +1
19:14 Claudia +1
19:14 pro-panda -1
19:14 Quozl motion agreed.
19:14 #topic pending motions
19:15 Claudia who is pro-panda?
19:15 Quozl i had suggested in recent slobs mail that we might do something about having only 34 votes cast by 297 historic members.  should we do anything?
19:15 Claudia: that's rahul bothra.
19:15 Claudia Thank you. Hi Rahul (pro-panda)
19:15 MrBIOS I would like to propose that we send an e-mail to those members, asking, essentially, “are you alive, and do you still want to be a member?"
19:16 Quozl for the record, we don't appear to have any visitors to the meeting today; this could be because we changed the meeting time without notice.  if any of you can stay to the hour, please do so.
19:16 MrBIOS: i agree.
19:16 MrBIOS I should be able to
19:16 Claudia MrBIOS: +1
19:16 Quozl ibiam: what do you think about this?  [membership list]
19:16 Claudia it would be great to clean the list and make sure people can participate
19:17 MrBIOS okay, should that e-mail should be crafted by the membership and election committee liason, or collectively?
19:17 ibiam Quozl: Like Claudia just suggested, I'd planned to remove the 30 email aliases that Vipul reported to have bounced.
19:17 Claudia good start
19:17 Quozl MrBIOS: we delegated the task of maintaining the list to the committee when we created the committee, but we can always give instructions to the committee.  and that committee can invite you to do something for them.  it's not a worry.
19:19 so i see two steps; one already completed is to identify the bounced addresses, but the second step we're considering is to ask the members to respond that they want to continue to be members.
19:19 ibiam +1.
19:19 pro-panda For the people who respond in the affirmative for being a member, they should also be able to indicate their contribution to Sugar Labs
19:19 Quozl i think we need to agree two things; (a) whether to do this, and (b) what time period to allow for an answer.
19:19 MrBIOS +1, having a list of non-responsive members doesn’t mean much, at least to me.
19:20 I’m fine with 30-60 days. Thoughts?
19:20 ibiam For (b) I think a fortnight is okay.
19:20 MrBIOS pro-panda: no contribution is necessary to be a member, you can be an end user for instance.
19:20 Claudia what are we asking from members and what is the benefit of this membership? I think we should be able to talk about those things in the communication...
19:21 Quozl MrBIOS: being an end-user is a contribution.
19:21 Claudia: i think there is no benefit of membership other than association.
19:21 MrBIOS Quozl: I agree, but I’m not sure it’s what pro-panda meant
19:21 ibiam I think so too.
19:21 Quozl MrBIOS: pro-panda and i have in the past wondered at how we have mentors who do nothing, or members who we cannot figur eout how they became members.
19:22 pro-panda MrBIOS: ~contribution~ How are they a stakeholder ?
19:22 MrBIOS yes, those folks should all be purged. Just because you contribute a line or 500 of code, once, doesn’t mean you are or even want to be a “member”
19:22 again, that word is ambiguous.
19:22 it’s not clear if you mean _code_ contribution, or beyond that
19:22 ibiam Quozl: the mentor process was changed and that has improved.
19:23 Quozl i'd like to suggest we think about membership criteria some other time, and not have it as part of membership list verification.
19:23 Claudia Quozl: hmmm... giving inputs on some sort? working together with Sugarlabs on outreach? electing board?
19:23 pro-panda Agreed
19:23 MrBIOS agreed
19:24 this is another great point about being on the Oversight Board..just because something is clear to you doesn’t mean it’s clear to all the other members.
19:24 llaske ok
19:24 Claudia I think those are benefits and responsibilities combined
19:25 Assuming people want to be a member for the affiliation alone is not sufficient... in my opinion
19:25 Quozl for the record, here's the membership criteria and the existing direction to the committee to clean up the membership list every six months; https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs/Members
19:25 MrBIOS Claudia: I agree, there needs to be a stated reason why, even if it’s relatively superficial, like a selection on a web form.
19:26 I would like to propose that we keep the membership list in a machine-readable format, not an OpenDocument uploaded to our wiki.
19:26 something we can use to generate e-mails from, for instance, would be a marked improvement
19:27 Claudia I would not call those superficial... I think the benefits have strong links to what the organization is and should continue to be
19:27 Quozl in our existing direction that the board made a long time ago, the time period was six months.
19:27 MrBIOS As a reminder, here is the current process for membership indution: https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]ng_for_membership
19:28 Quozl MrBIOS: the committee holds a list of e-mail addresses that is not published.  as a board member you are entitled to a copy.  but we don't host it on the wiki.
19:28 MrBIOS understood, but it could easily be not-published somewhere else. A private repo, etc etc.
19:28 having to copy-paste a bunch of e-mail addresses to communicate with our membership is dumb.
19:29 I guess I’d like to understand what the current process is for doing so
19:29 if any
19:29 ibiam Quozl: The currency assurance policy was added by Luke Faraone, was there ever a decision by the board for that?
19:29 Quozl MrBIOS: yes.  i suggest you ask the committee about that.
19:30 ibiam: yes, but i don't have the exact motion noted.  the list has been trimmed before.
19:30 MrBIOS Quozl: I don’t see a list of the current members of said committee, does anyone know who is on it, besides ibiam? (or are you still, ibiam?)
19:31 Quozl MrBIOS: https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]ections_Committee
19:31 llaske_ <llaske_!~llaske@2a01cb00074daf00902d092dd0f​1f941.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:31 Quozl MrBIOS: it includes samson, ignacio, hrishi, and pericherla.  i've said before i don't like how we don't know what they do; there's no minutes, and no reporting.
19:32 MrBIOS okay. I had asked Samson to be here, but he was likely unaware of the change of schedule, so I can’t fault him for not bing here.
19:32 I would like to propose that if they don’t change that, we abolish the committee, if it’s not actually doing it’s mandated job.
19:32 and find some alternative means of facillitating the same thing.
19:32 pro-panda I'd second that
19:32 Quozl MrBIOS: but they have successfully run an election, even if they haven't done the other things we would have liked.
19:33 ibiam Some of the members of the committee haven't been active for a while.
19:33 Quozl MrBIOS: we also haven't given explicit direction to do the things we thought they should.  a bit unfair to dismiss them for it.
19:33 MrBIOS I agree, not saying we do it without having a conversation with them about it first :)
19:34 pikurasa <pikurasa!~devin@fsf/member/pikurasa> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:34 Quozl ibiam: if someone doesn't turn up to meetings or answer committee mail in any way; that's someone who should be replaced by someone who will.
19:35 MrBIOS I propose we call an “emergency”/one-off meeting of the elections committee, to discuss this in real time.
19:35 Quozl let's wrap this topic up; do we have any proposed motions?
19:35 ibiam MrBIOS: +1.
19:35 MrBIOS any board members who want to attend would be welcome to do so. Anyone?
19:35 ibiam I'll attend.
19:35 llaske_ has quit IRC
19:35 Quozl MrBIOS: if at an appropriate time, i'll attend.
19:35 MrBIOS same here.
19:36 pro-panda I'll attend
19:37 Quozl motion: a meeting to be called on irc for the membership and elections committee, with board members invited.  all in favour?
19:37 MrBIOS anyone else care to second this proposed motion?
19:37 +1 here, in favor
19:37 ibiam Seconded.
19:37 pro-panda I'll second
19:37 llaske +1
19:37 pikurasa +1
19:37 Quozl Claudia: ?
19:38 motion agreed.
19:38 #topic induction of new board members (repeating)
19:38 pikurasa: hav eyou advised sfc of changes to board?  i spoke with karen about this a few weeks ago at linux.conf.au, just to prepare her.
19:39 pikurasa: sfc have to be told of the election result, and they will change their e-mail alias for the board.
19:39 pikurasa Quozl: I can tell them.
19:39 Quozl pikurasa: good, thanks.  do you have anything else to report on sfc relations?
19:39 pikurasa Quozl: I will do it soon.
19:39 Quozl #topic any reports from project representative
19:40 pikurasa I have not spoken to SFC much recently, and do not have anything to report on that end.
19:40 Quozl #topic any reports from project teams; e.g. gci, gsoc
19:40 thanks.
19:40 walterbender: are you here?  if not, i'll speak to gsoc.
19:40 pikurasa Let me know if you need me to communicate anything with them.
19:40 Quozl pikurasa: will do.
19:40 Claudia +1
19:41 Quozl the deadline for submitting the application for gsoc was, um, 41 minutes ago.
19:41 Claudia sorry... emergency call
19:41 llaske walterbender told he submit
19:41 Quozl i was in a meeting so i don't yet know how walterbender went with that.
19:41 llaske: thanks!
19:41 Claudia back at the meeting
19:41 MrBIOS I have a question as it relates to SFC, that I discussed with Peace and Samson in Brussels last weekend, at FOSDEM.
19:41 Quozl we seem to have some interesting projects and mentors able to help us with sutdents.
19:41 MrBIOS: go ahead.
19:42 MrBIOS We had previously voted as a board, and approved, a motion to spend the money we received from GSoC some time last year on marketing, but we never actually spent any money, nor did we ask SFC to do anything about it.
19:42 so, we have a bit of a disconnect there, and I propose it be resolved.
19:42 Quozl MrBIOS: by the way, were the SFC people at FOSDEM?
19:42 MrBIOS how, I’m not really sure, but I’m open to suggestions
19:43 Quozl: I know Bradley was, but I did not interact with him. He was also at a copyleft meet-up/conference on Monday, which I missed as I didn’t know it was happening, had booked my flight months in advance, and couldn’t attend since I had to get on a plane that morning.
19:43 …which was also in Brussels.
19:44 Quozl MrBIOS: are you referring to motion 2019-01 to preserve the gsoc 2018 stipend for marketing purposes?  this was an internal matter within the board, and didn't have any effect on sfc.
19:44 pikurasa sent results to Karen of SFC just now.
19:44 Quozl pikurasa: thanks.  you included removal of samson and walter?
19:45 MrBIOS Quozl: I don’t disagree, but since we effectively earmarked those funds, and then did nothing about distributing them, I just wanted to bring it up so everyone on this new board is now aware.
19:46 procedureally, since SFC still holds those funds on our behalf, it’s a bit complicated, given the divorce.
19:46 ibiam In addition to what MrBIOS is saying, I'd like to know what the plan of the board is for marketing and outreach.
19:46 Quozl MrBIOS: okay, thanks.  it's something that happens in other organisations i'm part of; a group of people say "here's some money, use it for suchandsuch", we call it a conditional-grant, and it imposes on the organisation a responsibility to track parts of it's money.
19:47 pikurasa Quozl: yes
19:47 MrBIOS ibiam: at this point I don’t think we have a coherent plan, but I would like to see us develop one, as part of our organizational re-boot, and our second decade of existence.
19:47 Quozl #topic discussion of marketing and outreach
19:47 pikurasa Quozl: I have some real quick finance topics, and I have kids coming in for classes. May I be next on agenda?
19:48 Claudia go ahead
19:48 Quozl pikurasa: i did not know, sorry.  yes, and we also have to choose next meeting time.  so let's move quickly through this marketing question.
19:48 MrBIOS +1 for pikurasa
19:48 pikurasa I filed 1099 for Kyle (which is required by IRS). The deadline was Jan 31st.
19:48 I used an accountant in my trusted circles
19:49 MrBIOS pikurasa:  thank you.
19:49 pikurasa http://www.finaccurate.com/
19:49 is the firm
19:49 I could either continue with this person (recommended)
19:49 Quozl pro-panda: ibiam: what is being discussed by pikurasa is the new organisation procedural steps relating to US government.
19:49 pikurasa or try and find someone else (no time, I think)
19:50 I do not know the price, but I am finding out.
19:50 MrBIOS Also, for the new members, FYI, Kyle is our lawyer, he is working Pro Bono for us from now on, by his choice. We paid him to help forge the exit agreement with SFC, and negotiate with them on our behalf.
19:51 feel free to ask me any questions about any of this later on the SLOBs mailing list.
19:51 pikurasa I anticipate that it may cost between $1K-3K (ballpark).
19:51 ibiam Quozl, MrBIOS: thanks.
19:51 pikurasa (but may be less)
19:51 MrBIOS pikurasa: annually, or?
19:52 pikurasa I really do not know. I am giving a higher number than I expect.
19:52 (for filing 2019 taxes)
19:52 I will try and get a number.
19:52 Unsure if I need to call a motion. Any objections to working with this person?
19:53 MrBIOS it should be an incredibly straightforward process, I would be surprised if it exceeded $1K, personally. I have no objections.
19:53 it’s a necessary business expense.
19:53 ibiam No objections from me.
19:53 Quozl pikurasa: i've nothing to say, it's entirely up to the members of the board of the new organisation, and that's not me.
19:53 pikurasa The 1099 was $75, btw. (This should be done by payroll when we get bigger, which will be cheaper)
19:53 I got to go now.
19:53 Thanks!
19:53 Quozl pikurasa: bye!
19:53 MrBIOS s/necessary/necessary and non-optional/g
19:53 pikurasa: thanks for your time.
19:54 Quozl now, do we want to get back to marketing or move on to time of next meeting?
19:54 ibiam pikurasa: bye.
19:54 MrBIOS anyways, pivoting back to marketing for a moment?
19:54 Quozl right, marketing.
19:54 MrBIOS either/or
19:54 Towards the marketing goal, I’d like to ask all board members if they have any emotional attachments to our current logo, or any other aspect of our current branding, or website. I do not at all, personally.
19:54 I’d just like to have this on the record.
19:54 Quozl my marketing plan at the moment is to ensure sugar and activities continue to work, and to release a new version when it is an appropriate time, with a sugar live build.
19:54 MrBIOS pikurasa: if you’re still here and are able to comment, feel free, otherwise we can get your answer later
19:55 Quozl MrBIOS: what do you think is our current logo?
19:55 Claudia I think it is very confusing to be operating for the exisiting and the new organization, but not everyone that needs to be involbved us
19:55 MrBIOS Quozl: the one on our website, and which was made the logo when Sugar Labs was formed, ~10 years ago. There are also color variants of it on our wiki. https://sugarlabs.org/
19:55 Claudia *is here
19:55 Quozl Claudia: i agree.
19:56 MrBIOS Claudia: I don’t disagree, it’s no bueno, but it is what it is.
19:56 Quozl https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Trademark
19:56 Claudia so... it is hard to make decision
19:56 MrBIOS Quozl:  https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team/Logo
19:56 Quozl MrBIOS: so you mean the icon top left of https://sugarlabs.org/
19:56 MrBIOS Claudia:  I don’t think this decision needs to be binding, I’m just asking for opinions here.
19:56 Quozl MrBIOS: okay, thanks.
19:57 MrBIOS Quozl:  it’s also in the upper-right on our wiki
19:57 a square variant
19:57 Quozl MrBIOS: yes, i have a tiny emotional attachment.  i'm just used to it.  i think we could do better.  i've not seen any better, especially not in the recent gci attempt to get students to come up with a better one.
19:58 llaske Quozl : +1
19:58 Quozl MrBIOS: it would be appropriate to hire a graphics designer.  i don't think we have people who can do this in our membership.  is this something the new org could pay for?
19:59 MrBIOS agreed, those were not serious contenders. okay, the reason I ask is that Peace showed me some ideas in Brussels, that she had worked up. I liked at least one or two of them, completely subjectively, and thought it might be worth running them by the board as a whole.
19:59 Quozl (if we had members who could do this, they would have already demonstrated their skills in graphic design and made a suggestion by now.)
19:59 Walter__ <Walter__!~webchat@> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:59 MrBIOS they exist today, so they wouldn’t need to be created.
19:59 Quozl aha, good.  then i suggest you propose them.
20:00 MrBIOS Quozl: there are reasons why they have chosen not to, which I explained I didn’t think were valid/good reasons, which is why I’ve chosen to bring this up here.
20:00 ibiam Walter__: hi.
20:00 Quozl our time for the meeting is up.  does anyone have to go now?
20:01 MrBIOS okay, I will engage with her and send this content along to the SLOBs mailing list.
20:01 I do not, and am happy to hang around
20:01 do we want to formally end the meeting?
20:01 Quozl pro-panda: still here?
20:01 MrBIOS we don’t have a date/time for the next one yet, but we also don’t have pikurasa
20:01 ibiam I don't have anywhere to be, happy to be around for a while.
20:01 Quozl yes, i understand.
20:02 i move to close the meeting, all in favour?
20:02 pro-panda Quozl: yes, but would like to exit the meeting
20:02 llaske +1
20:02 pro-panda +1
20:02 Quozl Claudia: ?
20:02 ibiam +1.
20:02 Quozl MrBIOS: ?
20:02 MrBIOS +1
20:03 Claudia +1
20:03 Quozl #endmeeting
20:03 meeting Meeting ended Wed Feb  5 20:03:24 2020 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
20:03 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-05T18:55:36.html
20:03 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]20-02-05T18:55:36

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