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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2016-12-02 19:02:17

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19:02 meeting Meeting started Fri Dec  2 19:02:17 2016 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:02 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
19:02 walterbender I have a few quick updates to report
19:02 #topic GCI
19:02 When last we met, we had agreed to apply to GCI
19:03 We go in again this year.
19:03 We have 112 students participating so far (after only 4 days)
19:03 samsongoddy wow
19:04 walterbender and we have 35 mentors!!!
19:04 it has been really great to have so much support from the community
19:04 samsongoddy yeah
19:05 walterbender lots of time left to suggest tasks so please don't hesitate to contact me with your ideas.
19:05 any questions/comments ?
19:06 samsongoddy walter the tasks i uploading about sugarizer wiki, did you upload it?
19:06 walterbender FWIW, some old faces, many new. A nice mix of experience
19:06 samsongoddy: not yet
19:06 samsongoddy okay
19:06 walterbender I was expecting Lionel to do that
19:08 #topic i18n
19:08 We have a translator working on Guarani in .PY
19:08 samsongoddy has quit IRC
19:08 walterbender making good progress for us
19:08 samsongoddy <samsongoddy!a99f795d@gateway/web/cgi-irc/kiwiirc.com/ip.> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:09 samsongoddy what did i miss?
19:09 i am having internet problem
19:09 walterbender you can follow the work in the PO files
19:09 samsongoddy PO files?
19:09 walterbender samsongoddy: you didn't miss anything
19:10 samsongoddy: the PO files we use to store translations
19:10 samsongoddy oh
19:10 andresaguirre <andresaguirre!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:12 walterbender hi andresaguirre
19:12 samsongoddy anymore things to talk about GCI?
19:12 walterbender samsongoddy: I think we are on to the next topic
19:13 samsongoddy what topic?
19:13 sorry i didn't follow up! i was logged out from IRC
19:13 walterbender there is another i18n proposal for getting turtle translated for some potential workshops in Nigeria next spring
19:13 llaske <llaske!~user7422@AVelizy-152-1-8-84.w90-62.abo.wanadoo.fr> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:14 walterbender we haven't got all the details together yet, but we will send email when it is more formalized
19:14 hi llaske
19:14 we now have a quorum :)
19:14 samsongoddy Yeah
19:14 andresaguirre hi!!!
19:15 walterbender llaske: question for you re i18n and sugarizer
19:15 llaske sorry to be late
19:15 CanoeBerry Hi All
19:15 samsongoddy two languages
19:15 CanoeBerry Ditto
19:15 walterbender are you using PO files as an intermediary to the locale.ini file?
19:15 ^^ llaske
19:16 llaske no I'm using directly locale.ini
19:16 both files are too different
19:16 walterbender llaske: we have scripts to migrate from PO to locale.ini
19:16 llaske so no I'm using directly locale.ini
19:17 walterbender the advantage is that we maintain a consistent and supported workflow for our translators
19:17 but we can discuss this after the meeting
19:17 tony_ Why do we need translators?
19:17 llaske yes sure
19:18 walterbender tony_: why? so we can get translations
19:18 tony_: a translator could be a kid, a teacher, a community member, etc.
19:18 tony_ If we have a deployment where the language is used, the students know the language
19:18 walterbender tony_: do they know English too?
19:19 tony_ English or Spanish or French or ....
19:19 walterbender tony_: I don't understand where you are going with this?
19:19 tony_ If we need translation to Guarani find a deployment where it is spoken. Then they only have to worry about how to translate the source text to their own language
19:20 For example, Rwanda has a nation of Kinyarwanda speakers. How many are on translate.sugarlabs.org?
19:20 walterbender tony_: You are conflating the need for PO files and the need to work from t.sl.o
19:21 they are not codependent
19:21 tony_ I have written a sugar activity Lion which enables a native speaker to provide the translation on their laptop.
19:22 This activity produces a po file which can be used locally and transmitted back to translate.sugarlabs.org
19:23 walterbender tony_: and... how is that an argument against having PO files?
19:24 tony_ There is no argument about having the files only about where they originate
19:24 walterbender tony_: IMHO, generating them at the source is most efficient (but obviously not required)
19:25 tony_: as far as how they get translated, we need to be opertunistic
19:25 tony_ if we don't have a deployment of Sugar using the language, what is the point?
19:26 walterbender tony_: we have lots of guarani users in PY
19:26 it was an effort driven from PY
19:26 tony_ Then getting a po file for that language should be easy
19:27 walterbender anyway, we should take this off line and keep the meeting moving
19:27 any other i18n questions/comments?
19:27 tony_ ok - we are good at putting things off
19:27 walterbender tony_: I don't understand. Is there a proposal on the table?
19:28 can you frame your opinion about PO files in a motion?
19:28 tony_ No, I think you sense my frustration. In a year on this board I see no change in Sugar Labs.
19:28 Of course, but it will be deferred.
19:28 Claudia_ <Claudia_!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:29 Claudia_ hi
19:29 walterbender tony_: I hear you but I don't see how this i18n issue factors into the change discussion
19:29 hi Claudia_
19:29 tony_ As you know when we considered a translation manager, I hoped the manager would reach out to deployments and to encourage them to undertake the task in the spirit of constructive learning
19:30 Claudia_ got confused by the 15 EST
19:31 walterbender tony_: I see that happening in part at least, guarani being case in point
19:31 chris has been encouraging PY to move forward and now they are
19:32 but they chose to hire a translator as opposed to doing it in a more distributed fashion
19:32 tony_ Why?
19:33 walterbender because they thought (1) it would happen faster (2) more consistent (3) more accurate (4) more to the standard and expectation of the funding sources
19:33 tony_ However, not support learning
19:33 walterbender and other reasons as well I don't recall of the top of my head
19:33 tony_: You don't need to sell me on the idea of having the kids do it themselves
19:34 but there are tradeoffs and they chose a different path
19:34 for their own reasons
19:34 tony_ At the end of the day, they will decide that Windows offers a better solution
19:35 walterbender tony_: I don't think PyEduca will go with Windows, but I cannot sy for certain
19:35 tony_ If Sugar Labs does not promote kids learning, who will?
19:35 walterbender they, of all depaloyments I am aware of, seem more focused on constructionism
19:35 they are writing a book about Sugar in PY
19:36 tony_ How then can we help them succeed?
19:36 walterbender tony_: i18n is not the only area of need
19:37 we just did some Turtle/Music/Rodi/Butia workshops there and helped promote Sugar in the broader edu and gov sectors
19:37 tony_ Indeed! I have tried to suggest that Sugar Labs assume responsibility for Sugar and provide versions for multiple platforms, not just the XO
19:37 walterbender And they are very active in GCI
19:37 tony_ This has resulted in a motion to table pending on Sameer to do a business analysis
19:37 samsongoddy i think you are right about that walter
19:38 walterbender tony_: that is why we started Sugar Labs
19:38 and it is what I will advocate no matter what statement of purpose the community adopts
19:38 tony_ Note: that 0.110 is a stable release not available even on an XO
19:38 walterbender but in terms of process, I defer to the community
19:38 tony_ This, in my experience, is a first
19:39 walterbender tony_: yes... that is a problem
19:39 tony_ So, we could provide a release of 0.110 that runs on 13.2.7
19:39 walterbender we are very shorthanded in that space and I don't know if martin was able to hand off that skill set to samP
19:39 tony_: I think that is very important
19:40 tony_ As Bernie Innocenti pointed out in Malaysia two years ago, this is the Achille's heel of Sugar
19:40 walterbender \but I don't see it as a deliberate snub or policy decision
19:40 tony_ No decision is always a decision
19:40 walterbender peter robinson just released SoaS with the new system
19:41 tony_: no action, not no decsion
19:41 it is because we are shorthanded on the system/build team right now
19:42 tony_ It requires Fedora 24 desktop to make the SOAS stick. Fedora has release Fedora 25 and Fedora 24 is no longer availble
19:42 walterbender maybe what we as SLOB can do is address the question of how to get more resources forcused there
19:42 tony_ Yes +
19:42 walterbender so can we make that be the topic of the discussion ?
19:42 Any suggestions?
19:43 FWIW, I think we have GCI task for this
19:43 checks
19:43 tony_ Yes, we need to be able to make an SOAS image that can generate a livecd usb stick from the dd command. This stick must include the capability to install Sugar on Debian and Ubuntu
19:43 walterbender not that that is a reliable path
19:44 tony_: and we need to find someone who knows how to do that and is willing to do the work
19:44 tony_ I believe the technical requirements exceed what we can reasonably expect from GCI participants
19:44 Any volunteers?
19:44 walterbender tony_: I would agree but then again, samP came from GCI :P
19:45 tony_: I think this is the wrong place to ask. Maybe on Sugar Devel?
19:45 tony_ Does he have the capability to create an SOAS image which is a livecd and contains install capability as do most current releases
19:45 walterbender but we should ask here for ideas on how to get the resources we need to solve this probllem
19:46 tony_ Yes, I don't expect that this capability is accessible in Rwanda but I can try
19:47 walterbender tony_: and I will ask martin abente if he can help
19:47 tony_ Great!
19:47 walterbender I don't think we will get the cycles for this from peter robinson but no harm in asking
19:47 tony_ I can get resources to test proposed solutions and possibly to help document the process going forward
19:47 walterbender tony_: that would be a big help
19:48 samsongoddy am i free to say something before the end of the meeting?
19:48 walterbender satellit may have some documentation kicking around we can work from as well
19:48 anything else on this topic before we move on?
19:49 samsongoddy #marketing
19:49 walterbender sure...
19:49 #topic marketing
19:49 samsongoddy i believe Sugar Labs should focus more of marketing our  projects
19:49 tony_ Before you market, you need a product
19:50 samsongoddy Of course yes!
19:50 But if i am not wrong you guys are discussing the lack of sugar builds
19:50 Which is currently handled my SAM P
19:50 tony_ The lack of a deployable Sugar
19:51 samsongoddy but don't we should get more developers and users other than GCI ang GSOC?
19:51 tony_ Sam has made a 0.110 release of Sugar which can support a development environment. It does not include the Record activity for example.
19:52 samsongoddy Walter came up with a good marketing idea
19:53 https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team
19:53 What i have notice for my 2 - 3 years in Sugar Labs is that we don't keep our developers
19:54 walterbender, are you there?
19:55 Claudia_ I am here
19:55 samsongoddy okay
19:55 Claudia_ (I am not walterbender), but I want to say I am reading
19:55 walterbender hi
19:56 samsongoddy What i am saying is that we should be paying more attention to the Social Media
19:56 walterbender sorry, i got a call
19:56 samsongoddy I keep track of scratch, OLPC
19:57 GCI and GSOC shouldn't be our only point to showcase sugar/sugarizer
19:57 I think we need to come up with a good marketing plan for Sugar Labs
19:58 walterbender samsongoddy: agreed... but what is the action plan?
19:58 samsongoddy Social Media should be our main plan
19:59 we need to look into that
19:59 tony_ How is social media a plan?
19:59 Do you mean we should promote Sugar via social media?
19:59 samsongoddy yes
19:59 Sugar Labs as a whole
20:00 try to use promotions in the media
20:00 Claudia_ samsongoddy: you mentioned developers, but are there other goals?
20:00 tony_ As my proposed (but tabled) motion said - Sugar Labs develops and support Sugar as a Learning Platform.
20:00 samsongoddy Yes potential users too
20:01 not just developers
20:01 tony_ IMHO, If Sugar Labs is to be meaningful, it must show that Sugar can be deployed indenpendent of OLPC and the XO.
20:01 samsongoddy i came up with a plan before with dave concerning the media
20:01 andresaguirre maybe a short video with the main objectives and results of sugarlabs
20:02 samsongoddy yes, Claudia_
20:02 users are targeted too
20:02 Something similar to the way scratch do
20:03 Claudia_ we may need to think about: 1) what we need to accomplish our goal (which tony_ just mentioned)
20:04 2) how social media could support (or not) those needs, so a better plan is developed
20:05 samsongoddy yes
20:05 https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Marketing_Team
20:05 there is one plan already in that wiki
20:06 this was my plan https://docs.google.com/docume[…]/edit?usp=sharing
20:08 we can start from there! more ideas are welcome
20:08 walterbender FWIW, I think we need a metric to evaluate our media campaign and would recommend measuring in terms of increases of the number of Sugar users
20:08 hemant_kasat has quit IRC
20:09 samsongoddy okay
20:09 Claudia_ and sugar developers? or supporters?
20:09 tony_ How would you estimate the number of Sugar users? I expect an increase in Rwanda this year of about 60,000
20:09 samsongoddy Claudia_, i don't understand
20:09 also tony
20:10 tony_ The Rwanda Ministry of Education has a plan to expand use of Sugar by something like this number.
20:10 walterbender tony_: I don't know, but we need to be more rigorous if we are going to allocate resources to know that the allocation is doing something
20:10 Claudia_ walterbender said we need a metric of success... increase # of users, and I added... and developers and supporters?
20:11 walterbender +1 to Claudia_
20:11 samsongoddy okay
20:11 yes
20:11 walterbender tony_: maybe a better strategy is to work directly with the ministry in Rwanda to help them be successful?
20:12 I am thinking in terms of limited resources
20:12 tony_ I am doing the best I can
20:12 samsongoddy Users, Developers and supporters should be the target
20:12 tony_ At the moment we are looking at 13.2.5 with lack of a better tested and supported release
20:12 Claudia_ If we go back to our major goal... we want to reach more children, but we also need more developers for the software/platform and more mentors to support children
20:12 walterbender tony_: I realize and appreciate it
20:12 samsongoddy walterbender, tony_, Claudia_, did you all see the doc?
20:12 tony_ Yes
20:12 walterbender tony_: let me express a hypothesis
20:13 ignacio hi everyone
20:13 Claudia_ samsongoddy: yes
20:13 samsongoddy hi man
20:14 Claudia_ I think that is a plan for how to implement... social media manager + email account, etc
20:14 walterbender the furtherance of Sugar users/developers/supporters/advocates in Rwanda would be better served by direct provision of support to the MoE in terms of release management than in a social media campaign
20:14 Claudia_ but what is the goal of the social media campaign?
20:14 samsongoddy i think walter's project is doing it too.
20:14 walterbender this is just a strawman ^^ tony_
20:14 tony_ Walter +1
20:15 Interestingly, TurtleArt is including in the new official curriculum in Rwanda
20:15 Claudia_ great
20:15 samsongoddy the goal of the social media campaign is to let the world know that is going on in Sugar Labs
20:15 wow great
20:15 llaske_ <llaske_!~chatzilla@AVelizy-152-1-8-84.w90-62.abo.wanadoo.fr> has joined #sugar-meeting
20:16 walterbender tony_: nice
20:16 tony_: next up: Music Blocks :)
20:16 tony_: maybe I should try to join you in RW for a workshop sometime
20:16 samsongoddy IAM foundation is doing something similar to what i am saying too
20:16 tony_ You may want to think about a Turtle Art day in Kigali if you can arrange to get to Nigeria
20:17 walterbender tony_: happy to do it.... I tried many times to work with OLPC to arrange it to no avail
20:17 samsongoddy yes walter
20:17 that would be good
20:17 so that after doing it in Nigeria, we can head straight to kigali
20:18 walterbender samsongoddy: when is the next SEED event?
20:18 samsongoddy walterbender, are you the one tweeting all those tweets
20:18 Well i am not sure yet
20:19 but it should be around march and april
20:19 walterbender OK
20:19 I need to know pretty far in advance to work around my Miami commitments
20:19 but I will do it
20:20 and we can coordinate with Tony re kilagli
20:20 kigalii
20:20 tony_ Yes
20:20 samsongoddy But since we will be doing two workshops one in Lagos, and possible with SEED in Port Harcourt
20:21 ignacio -is the next topic l10n?-
20:21 samsongoddy I am not 100% certain that SEED will host the workshop anytime soon. Due to Nigeria economical problems
20:22 Schlumberger is really affected my the fallen oil price
20:22 Claudia_ I need to go by 3:30
20:22 samsongoddy So we will kick of lagos, then if SEED will host the workshop in Port Harcourt we will join them
20:23 TymonR <TymonR!~Tymon@dgc79.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl> has joined #sugar-meeting
20:23 TymonR hello
20:24 samsongoddy i made contact with the SEED team in Port Harcourt, they said they will give us the platform to do the TA day. But they won't cover hotel cost
20:25 the SEED collaboration workshop is a week program with over 50 schools
20:25 All they do is Scratch and Arduino
20:25 they stop doing turtle art, since claudia_ was no longer coming to Nigeria
20:28 walterbender I need to go too...
20:28 I have to get to the airport
20:29 CanoeBerry Election & other topics to follow...
20:29 walterbender I am hoping we cna sort out the election and vision issues by email with help from sverma and dave
20:29 samsongoddy okay bye! i will bring up a goal for the marketing
20:29 tony_ bye
20:29 sverma Ok
20:29 tony_ has quit IRC
20:30 walterbender #end-meeting
20:30 meeting Meeting ended Fri Dec  2 20:30:07 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
20:30 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-02T19:02:17.html
20:30 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]16-12-02T19:02:17

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