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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2016-06-03 19:01:08

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19:01 meeting Meeting started Fri Jun  3 19:01:08 2016 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:01 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
19:01 walterbender #topic updates
19:01 before we jump into the motions, I'd like to update the board on a few things
19:02 (1) I am in touch with several organizations who are interested in Sugar at some level
19:02 llaske Nice
19:02 walterbender the discussions are at a very preliminary level
19:02 one is an effort to set up schools world-wide
19:03 llaske cool
19:03 walterbender another is with a service provider who is interested in folding some of our work into their own
19:03 davelab6 satellit: i have no idea, i dont have a shell account... i suggest you send your new pub key to the systems@ list
19:03 walterbender I don't mention names here as it is not at that stage yet.
19:03 CanoeBerry_ When you can share more what kind of "service provider" great, even vaguely..
19:03 satellit k
19:03 walterbender CanoeBerry_, software services of the highest quality
19:04 but they are not FOSS
19:04 so we need to find a common ground
19:04 CanoeBerry_ Right.
19:04 davelab6 cool!
19:04 walterbender anyway, this was just a heads up. hopefully more to report next month
19:04 davelab6 exciting!
19:04 walterbender a few other things
19:04 ElVerma As long as they follow the license, it should be ok.
19:05 walterbender Sam Parkinson will be the release manager for the next release
19:05 CanoeBerry_ In other news, Karen Sandler has been very helpful getting many legal/financial issues organized, but we are not there yet on Samson Goddy's Yoruba contract and a few others items. Karen is working on getting a PayPal donation button ready per Sean Daly & others requests.
19:05 walterbender Tincho will be helping him
19:05 llaske Will be cool to have the PayPal button
19:06 walterbender thought we had one once a long time ago
19:06 ElVerma Do we have a published agenda for today? Curious\=
19:07 CanoeBerry_ Frustrating that Facebook will not fully confirm our SL Facebook page, until a Non-Public / Official Sugar Labs document is provided, but hopefully that's advancing too.
19:07 walterbender two more updates from me: (1) GSoC wrapped up its second week
19:07 lots of progress
19:07 and (2) I will be in Chile in two weeks, meeting with the Foundation that Cecilia (formally of Paraguay Educa) is part of.
19:07 I'll see what I can do re Sugar in Chile :)
19:08 @ ElVerma In the wiki
19:08 #link https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]oard#Agenda_items
19:08 any other updates?
19:08 if not, let's jump in to the list of motions
19:08 ElVerma thx
19:09 walterbender #topic Finance Manager
19:09 there are four separate motions
19:09 icarito walterbender, do ping werner and patricio of sugar labs chile
19:09 walterbender #link https://docs.google.com/docume[…]OUEX0ICRUkOc/edit
19:09 tony37 Could we have each motion on the log before consideration. So many changes that I have lost track of what the motion currently is.
19:09 icarito and share with the community the purpose of your trip ;-)
19:09 walterbender icarito, on my list :)
19:09 CanoeBerry_ Advance apologies I have a serious offline situation I have to attend to @ 19:30UTC, and so will be offline then.
19:10 walterbender CanoeBerry_, we can solicit your vote by email
19:10 Motion A: To replace existing bylaw for Finance Manager
19:11 It is a lot of text... I can copy it all here when it is time to vote
19:11 does anyone second the motion?
19:11 tony37 That is needed. This one has seemed to change daily.
19:11 walterbender tony37, ok
19:11 one second
19:11 Motion A: To replace existing bylaw for Finance Manager from:
19:11 Existing:
19:11 The Finance Manager is an ex officio, non-voting officer taking care of Sugar Labs' Finance.
19:11 Currently, this position is vacant.
19:11 Proposed:
19:11 The Finance Manager shall be appointed by a majority vote of the Sugar Labs Oversight Board and may be either a non-voting officer or one of the current Oversight Board members. The Finance Manager will serve at the will of the Board and may be removed and replaced by a majority vote of the Board if necessary.
19:12 Currently, this position is vacant.
19:12 Duties of the Finance Manager will be to:
19:12 1. Work with the Software Freedom Conservancy to manage all Sugar Labs monetary disbursements
19:12 2. report monthly in advance of the scheduled monthly Oversight Board Meeting the following:
19:12 Balance at the beginning of the month
19:12 Expenses during the month (with summary/mini-budget details for each expense)
19:12 Income received during the month
19:12 Balance at the end of the month
19:12 To carry out these duties, the Finance Manager will need to assert familiarity with using the Software Freedom Conservancy accounting system “Ledger” (see details at http://ledger-cli.org and http://k.sfconservancy.org/npo-ledger-cli).
19:12 This Finance Manager’s  Report shall be available as a full text on the wiki.sugarlabs.org website at least 72 hours before the regularly scheduled meeting. A simple majority vote of the Sugar Labs Oversight Board shall be required for approval of the Finance Manager’s Report.
19:12 The Finance Manager, shall be paid a remuneration for their services In proportion to the expected workload. The SugarLabs Oversight Board shall set the initial amount and shall review and reapprove the amount of remuneration every 6 months. If this does not happen the remuneration will default to $0, but can be reinstated at any subsequent regular SLOB meeting.
19:12 Failure to carry out these duties for more than one meeting will result in removal and appointment of another Finance Manager.
19:12 GrannieB_ That's the gist of it!
19:13 walterbender We have discussed this ad nuaseum on the lists
19:13 llaske Do we vote for the appointment too ?
19:13 walterbender GrannieB, that is not the gist... it is the entire text
19:13 Claudia__ <Claudia__!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:13 walterbender llaske, that is a separate matter
19:13 hi Claudia__
19:13 Claudia__ Hello..
19:13 GrannieB_ right…. but it has the spirit of all the changes too
19:14 walterbender any more comments re this motion?
19:14 anyone care to second it?
19:14 tony37 I believe 'shall be paid' should say 'may be paid'
19:14 llaske +1 tony37
19:14 Claudia__ sorry doe being late.. I am at the cafe in newtonville to join the meeting
19:14 GrannieB_ Tony is right
19:14 walterbender Claudia__, I will past the link to the backlog
19:15 The Finance Manager, may be paid a remuneration for their services In proportion to the expected workload. The SugarLabs Oversight Board shall set the initial amount and shall review and reapprove the amount of remuneration every 6 months. If this does not happen the remuneration will default to $0, but can be reinstated at any subsequent regular SLOB meeting.
19:16 Claudia__ walterbender: please do
19:16 walterbender #link http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]16-06-03T19:01:08
19:16 tony37 The second sentence after the revision is not really needed. It could say 'Remuneration may be authorized by the Sugarlabs Oversight Board
19:16 davelab6 walterbender: we did have a paypal button in the wiki in an external file 'paypal.htm' or 'donate.htm' but I think it was lost in a wiki upgrade; i could not find any trace of it.
19:16 CanoeBerry_ I don't want to get hung up on technicalities, but the 4 reporting requirements ("beginning of the month" "during the month" and "end of the month" etc) are still very ambiguous, particularly when these must be reported 72hrs prior to the beginning-of-month meeting, and finding these numbers with a modicum of accuracy can sometimes be hard, even when FA has many weeks available.
19:16 walterbender any other comments?
19:17 CanoeBerry_ Some kind of "best effort" summary of how finances *actually& evolved since the prior month seems to be far more attainable :)
19:18 walterbender anything else?
19:18 CanoeBerry_ All of which assumes meetings remain monthly, near the beginning of the month..
19:19 walterbender presuming we clean up these ambiguities, is there interest in moving forward on this?
19:19 CanoeBerry_ I think so.
19:20 walterbender so... procedurally, can you clean things up so that ypou are comfortable seconding the motion?
19:21 it would be nice to take action one way or another on this today
19:21 CanoeBerry_ That's hard work, but probably necessary.
19:21 walterbender if it is hard work then we should do it offline and vote by email
19:22 tony37 Given that the Software Conservancy is being paid 10% of our income to handle the bookkeeping, is this not something the Board can handle directcly?
19:22 CanoeBerry_ Seems necessary unfortunately -- as I don't think we're satisfied with 2-month-old reporting, but some level of depth around recent financials is very hard to articulate.
19:22 GrannieB_ Motion B depends on Motion A so it might be nice to clean it up today
19:22 walterbender GrannieB, +1 to getting things cleaned up
19:23 CanoeBerry_ tony37: SFConservancy has sophisticated financial/reporting software, but its complexity is part of the challenge here.
19:23 davelab6 GrannieB_: im sorry to say it but i will be shocked if those 4 motions pass today; i can't see that any revisions can be made now and then passed immediately without further community review
19:23 there has been literally months to comment on caryls text
19:23 and now there are comments on the wording! :)
19:23 tony37 I am not referring to the software but the reporting. How many financial transactions has Sugar Labs had in the past quarter?
19:23 walterbender davelab6, oy
19:24 tony37, probably 5-6
19:24 CanoeBerry_ Conversely voting on the impossible (monthly reporting on a month that is not even complete, that cannot possibly happen) doesn't get us anywhere.
19:24 The 72hrs notice is admirable, but make the above 4 reporting requirements impossible, as it stands anyway.
19:25 GrannieB_ How about just one reporting requirement at each regularly scheduled SLOB meeting. I think that may be the way I originally wrote it. 72 hours in advance is nice so there are no nasty surprises but less would work too
19:25 tony37 Perhaps word the Motion A for a monthly report of transactions during the month and the resulting change in the books (based on the end of a calendar month).
19:25 meeting <Jose_Miguel-es> In accordance with tony37
19:25 tony37 We appartently have about 2 transactions per month
19:26 walterbender tony37, in a busy month
19:26 CanoeBerry_ Wording needs to summarize the most recent month of financials, yes.  But what that means in practise depends on a few things behind the curtain, that will become more obvious along the road.
19:26 walterbender tony37, but that may change if motion B (2) passes :)
19:26 tony37 Need to know what that now says.
19:27 walterbender look... I agree we need to clean this up but let's do it off line
19:27 tony37 +1
19:27 walterbender we have too many other agenda items to get through
19:27 GrannieB_ Please
19:27 1 You have had months to work on this. Try to finish it today. It isn't rocket science!
19:28 walterbender CanoeBerry_ and tony37 : Can the two of you take responsibiliy for cleaning up the reporting language over the next 48 hours?
19:28 then, if someone seconds the motion, I will bring it up for an email vote
19:28 cjl <cjl!~chatzilla@2601:14b:8000:8d63:223:69ff:fe00:2e1c> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:28 tony37 During the past 30 days, I have received almost no emails regarding these motions until the day before yesterday when there have been dozens reflecting serious concerns.
19:29 I believe Caryl needs also to be involved.
19:29 walterbender tony37, let's not debug the process... let's just get things moving
19:29 GrannieB_ Tony! I sent several… over the past 6-8 weeks to the iaep list and others. How did you miss them?
19:29 CanoeBerry_ I can work on it, but 48 hours is impossible the financial issues therein are downright hairy even if I wasn't traveling :/
19:30 walterbender CanoeBerry_, tell us when you think you can have it done?
19:30 feels we owe it to the community to get this done in a timely fashion
19:30 GrannieB_ +1
19:30 llaske has quit IRC
19:30 tony37 Can we target the next board meeting?
19:31 CanoeBerry_ tony37: l agreed.  Getting it right is betting that fooling everyone; I'm completely unwilling to paste in a charade.
19:31 ignacio` has quit IRC
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19:31 CanoeBerry_ *better than fooling
19:31 walterbender CanoeBerry_, I object to that characterization
19:31 bernie_ has quit IRC
19:31 walterbender GrannieB, and davelab6 have put a lot of work into this
19:32 CanoeBerry_ A charade is an impossible goal.
19:32 llaske <llaske!~chatzilla@AVelizy-152-1-45-235.w82-120.abo.wanadoo.fr> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:32 walterbender and have sought omment
19:32 CanoeBerry_ I'm unwiling to be involved with that.
19:33 walterbender CanoeBerry_, noted.
19:33 well... we still need feedback and someone t work on the reporting language
19:33 any voluneteers?
19:33 GrannieB_ We have wasted 20 min discussing things that should have been done over the past 6-8 weeks. This is why SLOB is starting to resemble the US Congress
19:33 walterbender need not be a SLOB member
19:33 CanoeBerry_ I'm willing if false deadlines are not set.
19:33 sridhar <sridhar!~sridhar@2001:4830:134:7::11> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:33 ajay <ajay!~ajay@2001:4830:134:7::11> has joined #sugar-meeting
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19:33 kaametza <kaametza!~kaametza@2001:4830:134:7::11> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:34 walterbender CanoeBerry_, again, so noted
19:34 tony37 Walter Bender Are you proposing a committee of me, Caryl, Dave, and Canoeberry to come up with motion(s) to be proposed at the next meeting?
19:34 CanoeBerry_ Getting financial reporting accurate/clear (and finding that balance) is fundamentally hard, as Karen Sandler and others are working with me on.
19:34 walterbender tony37, I am proposing that someone(s) work on the language
19:35 I don't have strong feelings about who
19:35 GrannieB_ We could do that. If so, motion B should be tabled pending action on motion A
19:35 davelab6 lol GrannieB_
19:35 walterbender but it should be addressed  sooner than later as we owe a responsible response to the hard work of our community members
19:35 GrannieB, I am afraid we need to move on to other motions
19:35 CanoeBerry_ I can organize a methodical suggestion yes, with Caryl, Dave, Tony, but have to run at this moment.
19:35 walterbender my apologies
19:36 davelab6 CanoeBerry_: any objection to using google docs?
19:36 walterbender doesn't know what a "methodical suggestion" is
19:37 davelab6 nor i
19:37 GrannieB_ OK Adam… will be in TX till Tues then LA then driving to MT. We can touch bases somewhere on the line. Whatever you guys want is ok with me… SKYPE maybe?
19:37 FTF is good even if it is virtual
19:38 davelab6 fine for me
19:38 CanoeBerry_ Financial realities about when reporting comes in and what's genuinely attainable, not voodoo handwaving about impossibly unattainable summaries, before they are possible.
19:38 walterbender next topic
19:38 #topic Vision Statement
19:38 there is a motion to approve a vision statement for 2016
19:39 #link https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]ion_proposal_2016
19:39 CanoeBerry_ Bradley Kuhn is especially helpful here: I'll see if he has time by phone in coming weeks, despite my traveling.  Then Caryl/Dave/Tony/I can consolidate a real-world suggestion.
19:39 davelab6 CanoeBerry_: weeks!!
19:39 icarito CanoeBerry_, I support davelab6's proposal to automate ledger file removal of personal information and autopublication
19:39 llaske Good idea to separate Vision and Goal
19:39 icarito it shuoldn't be that hard
19:39 walterbender llaske, +1
19:39 llaske Important to mention that Vision is not Mission
19:39 walterbender we should set the vision and let the community set goals
19:40 llaske The mission don't change
19:40 +1 walterbender
19:40 walterbender so
19:40 davelab6 CanoeBerry_: i understand you have to go but honestly i feel very frustrated with you right now, because you have had WEEKS to further comment on caryl's google doc, which you already commented on.
19:40 walterbender #motion:  adopt the 2016 vision for Sugar Labs
19:40 kaametza_web <kaametza_web!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:41 davelab6 CanoeBerry_: i will review this log and update the text in caryl's googel doc tonight
19:41 CanoeBerry_ davelab6: Funny when people don't take financial people seriously, that's what happens.  Maybe we'll learn our lesson now possibly in coming weeks??
19:41 tony37 Sorry, but I don't believe this motion is close to being ready for approval.
19:41 llaske tony37 what miss ?
19:41 walterbender tony37, the vision proposal?
19:41 davelab6 CanoeBerry_: please email the list with your concerns asap
19:41 walterbender what is at issue?
19:42 tony37 The primary concern is it fails to address the educational goals of Sugar. It does not answer the question: Why Sugar?
19:42 davelab6 here is the vision proposal as it stands at this moment.
19:43 Sugar is high-quality software for learning, especially by younger children.
19:43 Sugar is designed for use by people who do not yet have regular or reliable internet access.
19:43 The Sugar Desktop runs on inexpensive desktop and laptop computers that have modest capacity, such as the XO-1 "$100 Laptop" developed by One Laptop per Child (OLPC).
19:43 A web-based version is under development for tablets and phones, called Sugarizer.
19:43 Sugar Activities are applications that run in Sugarizer or the Sugar Desktop.
19:43 Sugar Activities encourage learning through self-discovery and encourage collaboration, expression, and reflection.
19:43 Sugar realises the educational vision of Seymour Papert and Alan Kay by providing a low floor and no ceiling.
19:43 llaske tony37, Why Sugar is the mission
19:43 davelab6 Every Sugar Activity respects every user's freedom to run, study, modify and redistribute it using software licenses compatible with the GNU General Public License (GPL) Version 3 or later.
19:43 Sugar development began in 2006 at OLPC, and in 2009 Sugar Labs was established in service to the Su
19:43 Sugar development began in 2006 at OLPC, and in 2009 Sugar Labs was established in service to the Sugar community as a volunteer-led and non-profit project.
19:43 In 2016 the Sugar community is global, and we at Sugar Labs aspire to include users and contributors in all countries, all languages, and all cultures.
19:43 We facilitate knowledge and software sharing among all people; we relate the software freedom movement to education.
19:43 We raise funds and use them to accelerate the progress of our Members, enabling them to access laptops, travel, and more.
19:43 We make things to think with.
19:43 Join us.
19:43 (end of paste)
19:43 on the FIRST LINE it answers the question "Why Sugar?"
19:43 on the SECOND LINE it answers the question "Why Sugar?"
19:44 tony37 This is not the same text as the link
19:44 davelab6 on the THIRD LINE it answers the question "Why Sugar?"
19:44 GrannieB_ Why not include other libre software? Actually… why not. Tony uses sone great things that aren't Sugar but are FOSS
19:44 satellit Toast? trisquel
19:44 davelab6 tony37: please hard refresh the page
19:45 walterbender tony37, here is the link again: https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]ion_proposal_2016
19:45 Tonyf has quit IRC
19:46 tony37 I guess the first link was dated. Sorry.
19:46 The first line is Sugar is high-quality software for learning, especially by younger children.
19:47 davelab6 right
19:47 tony37 This describes our view of what Sugar is. It does not say what makes it good for younger children
19:48 Arguably GCompris satisfies both of those attributes
19:48 davelab6 lines 6 and 7:
19:48 Sugar Activities encourage learning through self-discovery and encourage collaboration, expression, and reflection.
19:48 Sugar realises the educational vision of Seymour Papert and Alan Kay by providing a low floor and no ceiling.
19:48 walterbender tony37, not in my opinion
19:48 ElVerma In following the conversation around vision, mission, etc. I get the distinct feeling that the group has high variance when it comes towhat these terms mean and what role these statements play
19:48 tony37 I understand but your feelings need to be expressed in the vision
19:48 walterbender tony37, gcompris is great but it is only a partial vision of learning
19:49 tony37 Exactly
19:49 What does Sugar offer that is not available with Edubuntu?
19:49 ElVerma Perhaps an exercise in better understanding the roles and processes would help?
19:49 davelab6 tony37: gcompris is part of sugar! http://activities.sugarlabs.or[…]=gcompris&cat=all
19:49 walterbender tony37, it is not about constuction, expression, reflection collaboration
19:49 GrannieB_ Things like E-Paath and Abecedarium (sp) are wonderful and are used alongside Sugar. So it seems logical to include other non-Sugar FOSS/libre resources as part of what we do
19:50 ElVerma I would propose a session/exercise as opposed to a one off "come back with a statement" approach
19:50 tony37 Walter You are making my point. We need the vision statement to tell others what is Sugar and why is it important
19:51 walterbender tony37, thoise words are in the vision statement
19:51 I was just quoting
19:51 GrannieB_ Sameer has a really good idea just above
19:51 davelab6 i have been working on that vision statement
19:51 and soliciting contributions
19:51 for over 2 months
19:52 i feel VERY frustrated that the motions that have had MONTHS for debate are failing here
19:52 walterbender GrannieB, to your point, we incorporate other FOSS tools, but we have a specific vision/spin that is different from those tools. Perhaps the exception is Etoys, which from my POV is part of Sugar
19:52 ElVerma We need a semi-facilitated session to examine all these viewpoints and then hammer out a statement.
19:52 GrannieB_ Sameer… would be a great facilitator!
19:53 tony37 +1
19:53 davelab6 ElVerma: how about we pass these motions and then submit later motions to improve them, instead of having sugar labs have very little forward momentum
19:53 7 minutes less
19:53 ElVerma davelab6: I don't think asking for contributions will work until we've had a good discussion
19:53 davelab6 left
19:53 llaske +1 davelab6, a sort of version 0
19:53 tony37 Dave I appreciate your diligence and the great work you have done on this.
19:54 davelab6 zero motions voted!
19:54 ElVerma davelab6: I disagree
19:54 tony37 I don't think the meeting should be measured by the number of motions considered or voted on.
19:54 icarito lol
19:54 Claudia__ tony37: agree
19:55 ElVerma tony37: +1
19:55 davelab6 what then is the purpose of this meeting??
19:55 hahahhaa
19:55 GrannieB_ Frustrated… but yes tony37: =
19:55 +1 and lol
19:56 davelab6 walterbender: next motion?
19:56 walterbender Let me just say -- and I know from experience that I am going to be hammered for saying this -- but several community members put a lot of work into preparing motions well in advance for this meeting
19:56 icarito maybe a meeting is not evaluated by # of motions voted but the board should be
19:56 walterbender it is disheartening that there was so little effort to comment beforehand
19:57 davelab6 lol icarito
19:57 walterbender icarito, +1
19:57 llaske :-)
19:57 GrannieB_ How about monthly mid-month skype hangout sessions to work on these things? I find irc really hard for my arthritic fingers but Skype is nice
19:57 davelab6 google hangouts is recorded
19:57 walterbender skype is propietary and not well supported in Linux
19:57 GrannieB_ Google hangouts would work too
19:58 ElVerma irc is not a good medium for discussing strategic decisions
19:58 GrannieB_ +1000
19:58 davelab6 walterbender: im not aware of a free software solution for multiparty video that can record but i have been using https://appear.in for 100% libre software video calls
19:58 walterbender ElVerma, the idea was that the discussion takes place between meetings
19:59 pikurasa, knows of one
19:59 GrannieB_ Adam used Google Hangouts a lot for Unleashed Kids and recorded them
20:00 walterbender GrannieB, at least google hangouts works with Linux
20:00 ElVerma walterbender: Agreed. I think it's a facilitation problem, compounded by multiple communication channels
20:00 davelab6 walterbender: next motion please?
20:00 tony37 I only have a minute. On the Motions A ..., we have decided on a committee to prepare a proposed motion(s) for next board meeting. I believe this group should work to get concensus among themselves and then the board members before the meeting.
20:01 davelab6 tony37: i agree. i thought that had already occured.
20:01 walterbender I don't think we can continue today...
20:01 GrannieB_ Motion B should be tabled until motion A is dealt with
20:01 ElVerma walterbender: if we had better tools and methods to manage our collective work, things would move faster and be more effective.
20:01 tony37 On the vision statement, I believe ElVerma will lead a discussion leading to a stronger statement which can be endorsed by the board as well as Sean Daly and other stakeholders.
20:01 walterbender I will write up some thoughts to send to the list over the weekend
20:01 #end-meeting
20:01 meeting Meeting ended Fri Jun  3 20:01:54 2016 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
20:01 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-03T19:01:08.html
20:01 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]16-06-03T19:01:08

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