| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 23:06 |
meeting |
Meeting started Mon Nov 2 23:06:41 2015 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. |
| 23:06 |
|
Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting |
| 23:06 |
sammeister |
Thanks |
| 23:06 |
walterbender |
#topic GCI |
| 23:06 |
|
just a quick update. |
| 23:07 |
|
we agreed last meeting that we'd apply to Google Code In again this year. I've had pretty good luck recruting mentors |
| 23:07 |
|
and we are starting to get a pretty decent list of tasks in the wiki |
| 23:08 |
|
I will fill out our application tomorrow (the first day we can sign up). |
| 23:08 |
|
I am hopeful it will happen as it is a great program for us. |
| 23:08 |
sammeister |
I am waiting for Caryl to come online. I won't be staying long it about 1:00am by my time. Not feeling to good |
| 23:08 |
walterbender |
Caryl may have been confused by my arithmetic error |
| 23:09 |
|
sammeister, family and health come before Sugar !!! |
| 23:09 |
|
anyone who has more ideas for GCI, please add them to the wiki. |
| 23:09 |
sammeister |
about the GCI I inviting people to come work sugarlabs |
| 23:10 |
walterbender |
sammeister, that is great!! |
| 23:10 |
sammeister |
Walter did ibiam mailed u |
| 23:10 |
walterbender |
sammeister, yes... I answered |
| 23:10 |
|
we have a nice combination of Python and JavaScript tasks this year |
| 23:11 |
|
and lots of fun tasks that don't involve programming |
| 23:11 |
|
so good beginner tasks too |
| 23:12 |
sammeister |
I am working on javascript but I am having problems in combining python with it |
| 23:13 |
walterbender |
it is hard to do both at once :) |
| 23:13 |
sammeister |
Do u have any PDFs on that, Walter. |
| 23:14 |
|
Like the turtle blocks js |
| 23:14 |
walterbender |
sammeister, turtlejs is only JavaScript |
| 23:14 |
|
I do one or the other on the client side |
| 23:15 |
sammeister |
Oh my bad |
| 23:15 |
walterbender |
on the server you can be a bit more ecclectic |
| 23:15 |
|
but I have been focusing on client side so that things can work w/o a server connection |
| 23:15 |
|
sometimes we run a local server, in which case we run both |
| 23:16 |
|
meanwhile... |
| 23:16 |
|
#topic Music Blocks |
| 23:17 |
|
Lots of progress... check it out at walterbender.github.io/musicblocks |
| 23:17 |
|
Devin, Yash and I wrote a paper for the constructionist conference and we'll do a workshop there too |
| 23:17 |
|
#topic membership/survey/election |
| 23:18 |
|
sammeister, you want to chime in --- I can share the minutes with Caryl when she gets here |
| 23:19 |
sammeister |
Okay |
| 23:19 |
|
We created the survey as discussed |
| 23:20 |
|
In order to know who is active or still intending to be a member of SLOB |
| 23:21 |
walterbender |
icarito, did you and bernie_ sort out the hosting? |
| 23:21 |
icarito |
hosting is in a sugar labs vm it's just the dns |
| 23:21 |
walterbender |
is the survey somewhere where we can see it? |
| 23:22 |
sammeister |
Yeah Sebastian is working on that |
| 23:22 |
|
I just tested the process |
| 23:22 |
icarito |
yes it's ready to be sent once I get confirmation from caryl and sam they are satisfied with the texts |
| 23:23 |
|
then I translate to spanish |
| 23:23 |
|
then I send the survey to the membership |
| 23:23 |
|
248 of them |
| 23:24 |
|
I can give access to the backend for review |
| 23:24 |
walterbender |
thx |
| 23:24 |
sammeister |
Hi icarito |
| 23:24 |
icarito |
hola sam ;-) hope you're feeling better |
| 23:25 |
sammeister |
Yeah improving I guess |
| 23:26 |
icarito |
the membership confirmation survey is ready to be sent I hope tonight |
| 23:26 |
walterbender |
sounds like we are on schedule |
| 23:26 |
icarito |
it will be a test for the actual election which will use the same system |
| 23:26 |
sammeister |
Yeah |
| 23:27 |
|
Sorry guys i have to go to bed now. Send me the logs |
| 23:27 |
walterbender |
ls |
| 23:27 |
|
oops... wrong window ) |
| 23:28 |
|
JM__ <JM__!~webchat rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting |
| 23:28 |
walterbender |
sammeister, good night |
| 23:28 |
|
feel better |
| 23:29 |
sammeister |
Thanks bye all. |
| 23:29 |
|
sammeister has quit IRC |
| 23:29 |
icarito |
would be nice if somebody else technically inclined would lend a review on the process. |
| 23:29 |
|
JM_ has quit IRC |
| 23:29 |
icarito |
just for transparency |
| 23:30 |
|
there might be a little coding to do to fit the data to a condorcet counter |
| 23:31 |
walterbender |
icarito, is the code in a public git repo? |
| 23:32 |
icarito |
sure, we're using unmodified https://github.com/LimeSurvey/LimeSurvey |
| 23:33 |
|
there's been no coding at all except some CSS |
| 23:35 |
|
the system is installed at http://survey.somosazucar.org/ |
| 23:35 |
walterbender |
so what code do you want us to review? |
| 23:35 |
|
the LimeSurvey code itself? |
| 23:36 |
icarito |
no the process i.e. log into limesurvey and understand how it works |
| 23:38 |
walterbender |
The UI is decent enough |
| 23:38 |
|
getting the questions correct is always the challenge in creating a survey |
| 23:40 |
icarito |
i've limited myself to being caryl and sam's technical person |
| 23:40 |
|
i.e. installed the platform |
| 23:41 |
walterbender |
would be good to have another set of eyes on the questions... |
| 23:41 |
icarito |
current survey has 1 question only |
| 23:41 |
|
"would you like to continue to be an active sugar labs member?" |
| 23:41 |
Quozl` |
begins observing (had head down in code) |
| 23:41 |
icarito |
actually: "Would you like to continue being an active member of Sugar Labs?" |
| 23:42 |
walterbender |
that is a bit awkward in English |
| 23:42 |
|
and it seems a shame to not drill down a bit once we have people's attention |
| 23:42 |
|
but I won't second-guess |
| 23:43 |
icarito |
caryl wrote a cover letter that goes in an email |
| 23:43 |
|
the email contains a unique token for each member |
| 23:43 |
|
members have been imported |
| 23:44 |
walterbender |
I assume the intention of the question is to ask if people currently on the membership list would like to maintain their membership status. |
| 23:44 |
|
is the text of the cover letter available? |
| 23:44 |
icarito |
yes the intention is to fullfill exactly what http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Sugar_Labs/Members says |
| 23:45 |
|
"In order to ensure that the Sugar Labs Membership list is reflective of the current status of the project and its participants, once a year members will be asked to confirm that they still wish to be a Sugar Labs Member." |
| 23:46 |
|
i can paste it |
| 23:48 |
|
http://fpaste.org/286263/46508070/ |
| 23:49 |
|
but I don't think Nov 15 deadline is necessary |
| 23:49 |
|
it can be up to the election time |
| 23:51 |
walterbender |
It is fine, I guess. Maybe I will suggest a few copy-edits to Caryl, but none are pressing. |
| 23:52 |
|
anything else? |
| 23:52 |
|
is very happy that we will finally have an election |
| 23:52 |
|
(if we get candidates :P ) |
| 23:53 |
kaametza |
taking about that, I was wondering if the board would agree to have an open election results |
| 23:54 |
|
what I mean is to be able to display all results openly |
| 23:55 |
icarito |
I think you mean to publish the survey result data |
| 23:56 |
kaametza |
not only open data imposes in the political world as a trend but also will ensure that anyone has the option to be a candidate |
| 23:56 |
icarito |
it would mean vote would not be anonymous - i don't see a problem, I don't think it says it needs to be in the governance |
| 23:56 |
kaametza |
good news icarito :D |
| 23:57 |
|
I mean that it doesn need to be anonymous |
| 23:57 |
|
Claudia_ <Claudia_!~webchatrev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting |
| 23:58 |
Claudia_ |
hi walterbender |
| 23:58 |
walterbender |
kaametza, the election results have always been public in the past |
| 23:58 |
|
not sure what you are referring to |
| 23:58 |
|
hi Claudia_ |
| 23:58 |
|
as usual, I screwed up the time @ Claudia_ |
| 23:58 |
Claudia_ |
I just check email and realized it was not at 8 or 7, but 6 pm |
| 23:59 |
walterbender |
kaametza, I think that we should let people vote in private |
| 23:59 |
|
the members list is not private |
| 23:59 |
|
the results are not private |
| 23:59 |
Claudia_ |
no problem, walterbender |
| 23:59 |
walterbender |
but I think some people would be uncomfortable having their vote public |
| 23:59 |
|
Claudia_, the log is available |
| 00:00 |
|
we've been discussing the election |
| 00:00 |
kaametza |
walterbender, well choicemmaking is a process that does not by nature need rto be private |
| 00:01 |
walterbender |
kaametza, I would love to (1) make it easier for people to vote; (2) make it easier for people to run as candiates; but I don |
| 00:01 |
|
t understand how making the votes themselves public helps in any way |
| 00:01 |
|
I think it would cause some people to not vote |
| 00:02 |
|
I don't see how it would encourage more voting |
| 00:02 |
|
do you have some data to suggest otherwise? |
| 00:05 |
kaametza |
well guess there are different perspectives, I do like the idea of a public vote.. |
| 00:05 |
|
it somehow makes the hole election more interesting to follow ;D |
| 00:10 |
|
another important benfit is that it abosulty secures the results are the OK, as you get "distributed oversight" |
| 00:11 |
Quozl` |
but it fails to generate correct results if the results are published as the election is happening. distributed oversight only works properly if it happens after election period closes. |
| 00:12 |
kaametza |
I think you are correct on that Quozl` |
| 00:13 |
meeting |
<Jose_Miguel-es> In accordance with *Quozl`... |
| 00:13 |
Quozl` |
so it is up to the board if they would like distributed oversight. i don't mind either way, i'm observing. |
| 00:13 |
meeting |
<Jose_Miguel-es> And in accordance with Walter. No if do it opened will improve the election. |
| 00:14 |
Quozl` |
it depends on what improve the election means. |
| 00:14 |
|
if the true problem is "nobody will vote", then face that problem squarely. |
| 00:15 |
kaametza |
anything that makes things more transparent improves must ecosystems these days :o) |
| 00:16 |
TonyF |
I would be reluctant to vote if public because a) offend friends b) vote might be not well thought out |
| 00:16 |
walterbender |
kaametza, can you point to something I can read so I can understand better why you think this would improve things |
| 00:17 |
kaametza |
no, but that's not the way we change the world, right? |
| 00:17 |
walterbender |
kaametza, I don't understand |
| 00:17 |
Quozl` |
TonyF: exactly, a matter of trust within the membership. what to trust; the process of election, or the other members? |
| 00:18 |
walterbender |
do we have any evidence of fraud or distrust? |
| 00:19 |
Quozl` |
walterbender: only material evidence i've seen is a troll on a mailing list. |
| 00:20 |
walterbender |
Quozl`, that trolling is not related to how we hold elections as far as I recall |
| 00:20 |
Quozl` |
true, or not yet anyway. |
| 00:21 |
icarito |
it was suggested by Canoeberry that there might be a conflict of interest if kaametza ran as candidate as I am in the membership/election committee |
| 00:21 |
|
Cerlyn <Cerlyn!~ALIEN107-143-88-205.lightspeed.miamfl.sbcglobal.net> has joined #sugar-meeting |
| 00:21 |
icarito |
I think it would contribute to dissipate any possibility of tamper with the votes |
| 00:21 |
|
if each can validate their vote as counted |
| 00:21 |
|
otherwise, membership will have to trust whoever runs the counting code |
| 00:22 |
|
governance doesn't say vote is anonymous |
| 00:23 |
walterbender |
icarito, true... but that doesn't make it the right thing to do |
| 00:23 |
Quozl` |
the convention in government elections for a country is to protect against voter manipulation, but that doesn't seem likely here, as the stakes are low. |
| 00:23 |
walterbender |
icarito, kaametza there is a great deal of literature on elections |
| 00:23 |
kaametza |
well It would make a diference in my case |
| 00:23 |
walterbender |
if we are going to do this, it would be incumbent on the committee to present some evidence that it is an improvement |
| 00:24 |
kaametza |
I won't be able to run a candiate if vote is not public |
| 00:25 |
walterbender |
kaametza, there is no reason why we cannot have a 3rd party do the actual running of the survey, isolating you from any insinuation of vote-tampering |
| 00:25 |
icarito |
walterbender if you can think of another way to make the vote 100% transparent, I do think it's the simplest |
| 00:26 |
walterbender |
icarito, as several of us have already mentioned, there are trade-offs |
| 00:26 |
|
transparency of the counting of ballots is not the only issue |
| 00:26 |
Quozl` |
is there any evidence that vote publication distorts voting? |
| 00:27 |
walterbender |
and in fact, access to ballots and intimidation are big issues in US elections |
| 00:27 |
|
the miscounts are noise compared to intimidation' |
| 00:27 |
|
so yes, there is evidence that it is a bad idea |
| 00:27 |
|
so that is why I am asking for counterevidence |
| 00:28 |
Quozl` |
i wouldn't consider the US election system up as a particularly useful form of governance, but if that's what the members are mostly living in, then that's what they will expect. what are the countries represented by members? |
| 00:29 |
walterbender |
Quozl`, you asked for an example |
| 00:29 |
|
Quozl`, I am not an expert, but I am also not convinced we are solving a real problem and not causing more problems |
| 00:29 |
kaametza |
I do agree that the US political system might not be a good example to follow |
| 00:30 |
walterbender |
so I would like someone to make an argument that is not just handwavng |
| 00:31 |
|
and what does the US political system have to do with the US voting system? |
| 00:31 |
|
they are not one and the same |
| 00:31 |
Quozl` |
okay, in annual general meetings of corporations, and associations in australia, it is acceptable practice (and regulated) to elect by a show of hands, unless a sufficient proportion of the members present decide that the vote should be secret ballot. |
| 00:32 |
kaametza |
I wonder if other members of the board feel the same way about public vote |
| 00:32 |
walterbender |
kaametza, JM__ and Claudia_ are here |
| 00:32 |
Quozl` |
also, the question is entirely moot if the number of candidates is less than or equal to the number of positions. |
| 00:33 |
meeting |
<Jose_Miguel-es> I do not think that the open vote was guarantee of at all... |
| 00:33 |
walterbender |
Quozl`, and that is yet another data point we need to discuss: is an open ballot going to encourage or discourage candidates. |
| 00:33 |
|
is there evidence one way or another? |
| 00:33 |
meeting |
<Jose_Miguel-es> It seems me that it can generate rejection. Perhaps we have a strong tradition in *UY |
| 00:34 |
kaametza |
there is a need to over come all rejection fears |
| 00:34 |
|
in the name of good gobernance :D |
| 00:34 |
walterbender |
also, the argument for an open ballot is ensure integrity of the voie? there are other ways to ensure that |
| 00:34 |
|
kaametza, why? |
| 00:35 |
kaametza |
because we are the example the young ones are following, we need to have no fear of been active in politics and see how commun structures evolve |
| 00:36 |
walterbender |
kaametza, I don't follow your argument |
| 00:37 |
Quozl` |
reference, model constituion for incorporated associations in new south wales, australia. http://www.fairtrading.nsw.gov[…]constitution.page ... section 30, making of decisions. section 15, ballot for electing committee uses a method directed by the committee. |
| 00:37 |
walterbender |
I don't see why participation need to go hand-in-hand with the type of transparency you are suggestting |
| 00:37 |
meeting |
<Jose_Miguel-es> The list of open member, the permanent publications, give transparencies... |
| 00:37 |
walterbender |
Quozl`, is that how or why? /me reads |
| 00:37 |
kaametza |
some one once told me (on a public IRC meeting) i should run as a candidate because there would be a " conflict of interest" with icarito been election commitee, remember? |
| 00:38 |
Quozl` |
what countries are the majority of members living in. |
| 00:38 |
|
walterbender: no, it is not why. |
| 00:39 |
walterbender |
kaametza, we can insulate you by having someone other than icarito administer the election |
| 00:39 |
kaametza |
I see no harm in going with public votes, and yes it would be a way to reduce all " conflict of intrest" paranoia :D |
| 00:39 |
walterbender |
I am certain we can find a "neutral" party |
| 00:40 |
|
kaametza, sop you discount the reasons we have stated? |
| 00:41 |
|
I would like to know why you discount them |
| 00:41 |
|
what is the evidence? |
| 00:43 |
kaametza |
walterbender, there are only good intentions |
| 00:43 |
walterbender |
@ Quozl` "Before adopting the Model constitution an association should consider its suitability for the association " |
| 00:43 |
|
kaametza, no one is suggesting otherwise |
| 00:44 |
|
but some of us have concerns that an open ballot may cause some issues |
| 00:44 |
|
and we are looking for assurance that it will not |
| 00:46 |
kaametza |
I really want to help with Sugar Labs Over Sigth Board, but I won't present my self as candidate if the votes are not public |
| 00:47 |
|
:O) |
| 00:47 |
Quozl` |
walterbender: yes, an association would have to have good reasons for not finding it suitable. it does happen. |
| 00:48 |
walterbender |
kaametza, you won't consider other mechanisms for ensuring impartiality? |
| 00:48 |
|
that is only solution you will accept? |
| 00:49 |
Quozl` |
walterbender: i agree that a secret ballot has advantages; hinders voter supression, hinders intimidation, hinders vote buying, but i don't see those things as likely or in evidence in the sugar labs membership. |
| 00:50 |
walterbender |
Quozl`, well, we heard otherwise from a member in this discussion |
| 00:50 |
icarito |
it's not unheard of to propose open voting http://www.researchgate.net/pu[…]l_for_open_voting I find it hard to imagine that there will be bribes or intimidation in Sugar Labs |
| 00:50 |
kaametza |
fear for friends rejection might not be the advisor on who should rull these days |
| 00:51 |
walterbender |
kaametza, I don't understand |
| 00:52 |
Quozl` |
one can always not vote if there is a fear of rejection. i'm not planning to vote, as i'm not a member. (and _i_ don't feel i can be a member because of my employment at olpc, inc, creates for me a conflict of interest that _i_ perceive even if others do not). |
| 00:53 |
|
s/employment at/contract with/ |
| 00:53 |
walterbender |
Quozl`, so, would you be willing to run the balloting process? |
| 00:53 |
|
that would remove kaametza 's problem |
| 00:53 |
kaametza |
walterbender, fear is not a good advisor, that summarize it |
| 00:53 |
walterbender |
and then we can discuss the merits of open ballot without that issue |
| 00:54 |
Quozl` |
walterbender: no, i would not run the ballot unless it was open ballot after the election. with a secret ballot i cannot be guaranteed to be independent. |
| 00:54 |
walterbender |
icarito, I haven't read the whole article yet, but just from the abstract, it is far from conclusive. it just suggests it is something to investigate and we need to know more about how to do it right |
| 00:55 |
kaametza |
Quozl`, I dont see why you couldn't be active part of SL and still be able to keep you contract with OLPC |
| 00:56 |
Quozl` |
kaametza: i am active. but not as a member. |
| 00:56 |
walterbender |
we are going around in circles... |
| 00:57 |
|
I suggest that the election committee write up a proposal with pros and cons and the details of how it would work |
| 00:57 |
TonyF |
http://miles.oppidi.net/secretballot.pdf discusses the history and philosophy of the secret ballot |
| 00:57 |
walterbender |
with some actual citations to literature |
| 00:57 |
icarito |
also I don't see why you've made such a big deal of this probably we would've published a dataset, it's not like the votes will be going out on twitter... |
| 00:57 |
walterbender |
icarito, why do you say that? |
| 00:58 |
|
if it is open, they will go where they go |
| 00:58 |
icarito |
i.e. if kaametza hadn't brought it up, I probably would've found it obvious that, for transparency, I would publish a full ballot dataset |
| 00:58 |
Quozl` |
icarito: agreed, i thought it was going to be like that, i was surprised walter thought otherwise. |
| 00:59 |
walterbender |
maybe I don't understand what you are proposing |
| 00:59 |
meeting |
<Jose_Miguel-es> *Perdóin, but have to go out... |
| 00:59 |
walterbender |
please write up a proposal and circulate it |
| 00:59 |
|
JM__, me too. |
| 00:59 |
|
thanks for coming |
| 00:59 |
Quozl` |
icarito: some ballot datasets are de-identified. perhaps you could include that in your proposal. a token is given to the voter, which they can use later. |
| 01:00 |
meeting |
<Jose_Miguel-es> *Bye |
| 01:00 |
walterbender |
Quozl`, that is what we had been doing in the past |
| 01:00 |
meeting |
* Jose_Miguel has quit (Quit: Page closed) |
| 01:00 |
walterbender |
everyone could use their token to see their vote |
| 01:00 |
icarito |
yes each person could verify their token was counted |
| 01:00 |
walterbender |
and the aggregate results were always available |
| 01:00 |
|
but not what any individual voted |
| 01:01 |
|
that was kept private |
| 01:01 |
|
anyway, I look forward to learning why an open ballot is the right thing to do. |
| 01:01 |
Quozl` |
i was expecting the individual tokens could be shared with other voters if the individual chose to. |
| 01:02 |
walterbender |
Quozl`, of course. individuals have always had that option |
| 01:03 |
|
JM__ has quit IRC |
| 01:03 |
walterbender |
is signing off |
| 01:03 |
|
any last word before I end the meeting log? |
| 01:03 |
Quozl` |
no, go ahead. |
| 01:03 |
kaametza |
good night |
| 01:04 |
walterbender |
thanks all for attending. |
| 01:04 |
|
#end-meeting |
| 01:04 |
meeting |
Meeting ended Tue Nov 3 01:04:26 2015 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4) |
| 01:04 |
|
Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-02T23:06:41.html |
| 01:04 |
|
Log: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]15-11-02T23:06:41 |