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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2012-08-14 16:47:13

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16:47 meeting Meeting started Tue Aug 14 16:47:13 2012 UTC. The chair is garycmartin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:47 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
16:47 silbe gonzalo_: Sugar is misbehaving and we're just lucky that metacity doesn't care.
16:47 erikos waives to garycmartin
16:47 garycmartin So who's here for some Design time! ;)
16:47 gonzalo_ garycmartin, we ddidn't have time to run! :)
16:47 ajay :)
16:48 garycmartin gonzalo_: :)
16:48 manuq stays here
16:48 Cerlyn <Cerlyn!~cerlyn@mail.globisgroup.com> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:48 garycmartin Ok :)
16:48 #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/Meetings
16:49 There's quite a bit in the agenda, let's see how far we get through it.
16:49 #topic Home list view favourite icons, hover highlight/click results in confusion (Frederick)
16:49 erikos go garycmartin go!
16:49 garycmartin #link http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/3147
16:49 erikos: I think you and I are partly to blame for this one ;)
16:50 Sugar Camp Paris 2 I believe!
16:50 benzea has left #sugar-meeting
16:51 garycmartin I was hoping to have a mockup animation of where we could go with this UI feedback case
16:51 but I didn't quite get there.
16:52 I will make sure and have it for the next meeting, but it involves using our grey, rounded rect mouse over/down outline around a widget.
16:53 (this might also help in the case of touch screen feedback, but that is another item)
16:53 ajay garycmartin: and also in multi-select :P
16:54 garycmartin Any one have any feedback/thoughts on the current star feedback UI?
16:54 ajay: ;)
16:55 ajay garycmartin: I think the ticket is very self-descriptive of the issue ..
16:55 erikos garycmartin: sorry, phone, I am back now
16:55 gonzalo_ garycmartin, can we use only stroke but not fill on over?
16:55 garycmartin erikos: :)
16:56 erikos garycmartin: and now with touch....
16:56 garycmartin: the hovering is only one use case
16:56 garycmartin gonzalo_: grey stroke but no fill is what an unselected star looks like :P
16:57 gonzalo_ garycmartin, no, i am saying user color stroke
16:57 manuq glad I see a ticket about this, when porting the view to gtk3 that confused me, I was about to report :)
16:57 garycmartin gonzalo_: Ah no, don't think that will be visible enough and will look odd (very dependant on users choice of colours)
16:59 So, I'd suggest the colour change on mouse over goes away, and we use a rounded rect outline (as per on the home view) when the mouse is over or down on the widget. This works for the touch case as well.
16:59 manuq +1
17:00 ajay +1
17:00 erikos garycmartin: how does it work for touch?
17:01 garycmartin (the star colour would go on/off on mouse down to show the click/touch was accepted)
17:02 erikos when the finger is over it?
17:02 gonzalo_ we should do a noise :)
17:02 garycmartin erikos: For the touch case the extra size of the rounded rect would make it less likely you have the whole thing hidden under your finger, also in the case of some UI lag the rounded rect would briefly be visible when you move away
17:03 manuq currently is grayed out when mouse pointer is over the star
17:03 garycmartin gonzalo_: +1 ;) but teachers will hate us :))
17:03 gonzalo_ garycmartin, just a little ;)
17:04 garycmartin gonzalo_: I hear that a 'fart' noise is always very popular with kids ;)
17:04 erikos ok, is a hard one, I think :?
17:04 :/
17:04 gonzalo_ garycmartin, don't be distracted ! :)
17:04 garycmartin erikos: is there not space in the widget?
17:04 (for the rounded rect around a star)
17:05 erikos but will that be gig enough?
17:05 garycmartin erikos: there will almost certainly be a UI delay as well, so you'll see it as you lift your finger for sure.
17:05 igod has quit IRC
17:05 dogi has quit IRC
17:06 erikos garycmartin: ok, we can try it out
17:06 should maybe look at a reference
17:06 dogi <dogi!~dogi@pool-108-20-102-150.bstnma.east.verizon.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
17:06 igod <igod!~omen@pool-108-20-102-150.bstnma.east.verizon.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
17:06 garycmartin I'll make sure I post an animation mockup before next meeting.
17:06 erikos garycmartin: it will be the same issue for the checkbox in the Journal, right?
17:07 (in regard to touch)
17:07 cool
17:07 kaametza_ <kaametza_!~icarito@186.80.204.67> has joined #sugar-meeting
17:07 garycmartin #action mockup animation for star/un-star UI widget interaction feedback
17:07 erikos: Yes
17:07 OK moving on...
17:08 #topic Example support for activities
17:08 #link http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]-July/038588.html
17:09 No walterbender or tch today. I don't have much new to add other than I don't think this will make it into the next cycle unless someone is willing to start coding it soon!
17:10 erikos ok, let's keep it async then for that one
17:10 garycmartin …and the design is still very unclear and potentially disruptive (see pervious design meeting logs if you're interested)
17:10 erikos ok
17:10 garycmartin erikos: Agreed, async it is!
17:11 #topic Lease expiry information display in My Settings
17:11 #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]ection_Mockup.png
17:11 #link http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]-July/038571.html
17:11 #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]formation_Display
17:12 Hopefully that first link should pretty much say it all. Seems like the mail thread is in agreement. We just need a working patch ;)
17:12 erikos garycmartin: ok, and daniel was on that thread as well
17:12 garycmartin: I trust him there to know what the field needs
17:12 ajay garycmartin: I will port it to the mainline
17:13 erikos ajay: ok, you should probably add yourself to http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]formation_Display then
17:13 ajay erikos: aye aye, caption !!
17:13 *captain :-\
17:13 erikos: ^^
17:14 garycmartin ajay: fab, from what anish was saying it doesn't yet 'hide' itself from users who don't need leases yet. That's quite important so as not to confuse/worry users who don't have anything to do with leases and activation.
17:14 erikos ajay: great, thanks
17:14 ajay garycmartin: Currently, if the lease.sig file is present, the lease info is shown; else not.
17:15 garycmartin, erikos: so how do we deduce as to who needs it, and who does not? gconf?
17:15 garycmartin ajay: OK, so the international DX3 image contains a dummy lease? I see "Lease: Not available" in my settings here.
17:17 ajay garycmartin: Hmm.. I think I could arrange for me.. just need to see it for testing .. :)
17:17 * arrange for one
17:18 garycmartin ajay: sorry, not much of an idea regarding testing if a lease is needed.
17:18 erikos garycmartin: ajay on that end I am all ear to daniel to know what to do
17:18 the design looks simple, so good
17:18 garycmartin Maybe there is some trick to get OF to tell you, but am just guessing.
17:19 ajay garycmartin: OF?
17:19 erikos ajay: best to keep discussing the technical details on the list in that thread
17:19 garycmartin Open Firmware
17:19 ajay erikos: +1.
17:19 garycmartin: ok
17:19 garycmartin OK, moving on! :)
17:19 #topic Journal multi-select
17:19 #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]ction_screenshots
17:19 #link http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]-July/038558.html
17:20 ajay garycmartin, erikos: So, i port the patch for lease info, and we continue discussion on m-l
17:20 garycmartin ajay: +1
17:20 ajay garycmartin: just saw your latest mail, regarding the alert-unresponsive. Am fixing it.
17:20 garycmartin: any other feedback?
17:21 garycmartin ajay: fab, more feedback...
17:21 erikos ajay: how hard would be a patch for mainline?
17:21 ajay is all ears :)
17:21 erikos the current patch is for dx, if I am right
17:22 ajay erikos: well.. I am mainly concerned of the differences that would be caused by the "touch" enhancement.
17:22 erikos: yes, it is for dx.
17:22 erikos: so, what i am thinking ...
17:22 garycmartin ajay: So I'm noticing that the batch operations are taking longer to get started – click select all and there's a fair pause before the UI changes or starts updating. I think this might be related to the new 'locking' of the Journal redraw, but haven't tested enough yet.
17:22 ajay erikos: is that i will port the patch anyways as the first step; test it on OLPC's F17 image to see it works fine.
17:23 erikos: after that I will send the patch to the m-l, to you and garycmartin, to see if there are any differences with  regard to touch. If yes, I will have to have a "touch" XO.
17:23 erikos ajay: yeah, that way you can get feedback on the implementation already, did silbe look at it internally?
17:23 ajay: nice trick ;p
17:24 ajay garycmartin: Hmm.. No.. i think this is something that is not due to UI-freeze. There is some time needed, to pick up the number of selected/deselected entries, before the operations begin on them
17:24 erikos ajay: I think 99% will just work in regards to touch
17:24 garycmartin ajay: Can deselect, be faster somehow? I see it as the "Get me out of here as quick as possible" button, as it returns you to the 'normal' Journal.
17:25 ajay erikos: :P.. yeah .. this way the work does not stop.
17:25 erikos ajay: you need to see how it works under GTK3
17:25 ajay erikos: great to hear that :)
17:25 erikos: yep.
17:26 garycmartin: hmm.. it might not be straightforward. for deselect to proceed, we first need to pick up the number of selected entries (on which the deselect will operate).
17:26 erikos if manuq and myself are quick you can base it on the new shell ;p
17:26 manuq aha!
17:26 ajay garycmartin: anyways.. i will say if it can be made any faster (seems unlikely, since we need to do one scan at least over all thee entries) :-\
17:27 erikos manuq: :)
17:27 garycmartin ajay: :-/
17:27 ajay erikos, manuq: sure ... we must port the feature in the best way :)
17:28 garycmartin ajay: for the initial pause before a batch can the UI be locked first, that's pretty strong feedback.
17:29 ajay garycmartin: sorry.. didn't fully understand u. u want to block the UI, during the pause you are talking about? If yes, that can be done :)
17:30 garycmartin ajay: When I start, say, a Copy to another volume. Locking the Journal UI as early as possible would provide good visual feedback, even before counting or calculating anything about what is to be copied.
17:31 ajay garycmartin: hmm.. agreed. Will do it.
17:31 garycmartin ajay: One last one on my list ;)
17:32 ajay: Should volumes be disabled while in multi select mode, or can they just clear multi select mode if the user changes volume?
17:32 manuq sorry I missed previous design meetings but I would like to ask..
17:32 how does multiselection work when the view is filtered?
17:32 for example filter by activity
17:32 garycmartin Currently they disable and grey out, the first few times I used it it was quite distracting and I wondered what the grey icons were.
17:33 manuq also, why entries are being deselected after they get copied?
17:33 garycmartin manuq: entries are being deselected after they get copied, that change has been reverted.
17:33 silbe garycmartin: would the usual busy cursor work or should we really block input and gray out everything?
17:34 Ariel_Calzada has quit IRC
17:34 manuq garycmartin: ok thanks
17:34 silbe (re. "copy to another volume" et al.)
17:34 garycmartin silbe: The busy cursor is already being used, but it takes a good few seconds (at least) before it starts
17:34 ajay garycmartin: Hmm.. what do u suggest (regarding the grayed volumes) ?
17:34 silbe garycmartin: that's something we can fix and maybe already have.
17:35 garycmartin silbe: Oh, and the busy cursor can't be relied on, you wont see in on a Touch device ;)
17:35 erikos garycmartin: oh yeah, good point
17:35 silbe garycmartin: ok :-/
17:35 erikos garycmartin: we should probably add that to our touch page as something to have an eye on
17:37 garycmartin manuq: multiselection when the view is filtered; Once you start making a selection the set of entries is locked until you exit multi-select mode. had some interesting bugs and workarounds there (what happens if you rename, or star while in multi select mode).
17:38 manuq garycmartin: yes, so good to have them locked
17:38 ajay garycmartin: what do u suggest (regarding the grayed volumes) ?
17:38 garycmartin ajay: regarding the grayed volumes; I'd suggest they do not grey, if a user does click one to switch volumes then you jusm right out of multi-select mode, and over to that volume.
17:38 silbe erikos: +1, we'll have to reconsider the places where we currently use busy cursors (CP sections, session end)
17:39 ajay garycmartin: ok, that should be fine (I don't remember anything that should cause a logical issue with this)
17:40 garycmartin ajay: But if there is no quick way to discard all the multi-select state and drop back to the regular Journal then this is a touch one (this is what the deselect all should be doing, right now it just slowly unwraps itself back to the usual Journal with no selections).
17:41 ajay: logical issue with this; the only argument could be that a user might expect their selections to be remembered between volumes. But not even Mountain Lion manages that! ;)
17:41 ajay garycmartin: hmm .. good idea :)   either both should be doable,, or none :)  i will see to it :)
17:42 tch___ <tch___!~tch@191.132.52.190.res.adsl.dyn.click.com.py> has joined #sugar-meeting
17:42 ajay garycmartin: so we might have a way to deselect faster after all :P
17:42 garycmartin ajay: Fantastic! :)
17:43 kaametza_ has quit IRC
17:43 garycmartin OK, so let's move on. Are folks OK for another 15min of meeting and then calling it quits for today?
17:43 tch___ garycmartin: meeting yet? still?
17:43 silbe tch___: still. And hi! :)
17:43 ajay garycmartin, silbe, erikos, manuq: would it be ok if I send the "ported" sugar rpm on F17, the next time I send the rpm link?
17:44 tch___ silbe: ! hiho
17:44 erikos garycmartin: yes, 15 min is ok
17:44 ajay garycmartin, silbe, erikos, manuq: or we first wish to confirm the design on dx3 itself? whatever u say :)
17:44 silbe ajay: I don't care about rpms, only about patches. Whatever you do, please only send URLs on sugar-devel, not packages.
17:44 garycmartin tch___: still, you've missed multi-select, lease information, example support (we skipped pretty much over it).
17:45 ajay silbe: yep.. I have been sending the URLs only (except the first time) :P
17:45 silbe good ;)
17:45 garycmartin ajay: I'm happy testing with either, I assumed you might want the same fixes in DX3 but I guess you'll get more folks testing if you port now.
17:46 OK...
17:46 #topic Design review/testing/feedback of Touch features, patches available for testing (Simon)
17:46 ajay garycmartin: me too think the same. anyways .. i will first fix in dx3 anyways; that will be faster for the fixes :P  .. but yes, i am thinking of sending the "ported" rpm the next time (may be by end of this week)
17:47 garycmartin #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]Touch/Development
17:47 #link http://dev.laptop.org/~erikos/touch/
17:47 ajay: OK :)
17:49 So erikos have been working on lots of nice patches for many of the touch feature proposals. I've only just started to give them a go here on my XO-1.75
17:49 manuq same here
17:50 erikos great, thanks
17:50 garycmartin The various "Make-the-palette-come-up-on-left-click" type patches make quite an improvement even for normal Mouse/trackpad use :)
17:51 erikos ok, I can wrap that up and send as a general patch to the ml
17:51 silbe garycmartin: +1, lets merge them ASAP.
17:51 erikos garycmartin: another interesting one is probably the frame one
17:53 garycmartin erikos: and the "New-frame-interaction" is working well, it makes the Frame toggle open when you raise it via a hot corner so you don't have to worry about where your mouse cursor is, and it also closes instantly when you hit the corner again (or use the Keyboard frame key)
17:54 erikos garycmartin: ok, glad you like it
17:55 garycmartin erikos: I'm not sure about overloading the square-game-button as a Frame shortcut, but it's handy just now for testing while we wait for Frame gestures and/or the top left frame button.
17:56 erikos: I do like it. I was a little worried thinking it over before I tested your patch. I was concerned a user may not work out who to make it go away. Perhaps can try out the behaviour on an unsuspecting user :))
17:58 erikos garycmartin: great
17:58 garycmartin: yeah the game button was a quick hack
17:58 garycmartin: I don't find it too bad, at least for a fallback
17:58 ok, I can wrap those up and send to the ml
17:59 garycmartin erikos: yes it's fine for testing, but will clash with some activities.
17:59 erikos let me know if espacially dislike something or want anything to be tweaked
17:59 garycmartin: for example maze
17:59 garycmartin erikos: So my plan for tomorrow is to try and re-build maliit and test your remaining three related patches
17:59 erikos garycmartin: but I think maze is using it wrongly actually
17:59 garycmartin erikos: example: read
17:59 erikos ahh, ok - read
18:00 garycmartin erikos: I have one new item to think on...
18:00 erikos garycmartin: peter is just pushing on the maliit end
18:00 garycmartin: maybe you are lucky and get an rpm ;p
18:00 garycmartin: ok
18:00 manuq :)
18:00 erikos manuq: yeah, you are happy about that as well I am sure ;p
18:01 garycmartin erikos: Long delay holds on icons currently trigger the slow reveal behaviour, even if a simple tap/click gives the instant palette...
18:01 erikos: example: hold down on a Buddy icon in the neighbourhood view, vs just tap/click it.
18:02 erikos ok
18:02 but this will be handed by toch&hold later right?
18:02 to be == right click
18:03 garycmartin is wondering if long holding on an icon that has no hidden/advanced features should do nothing.
18:04 erikos ahh, I see
18:04 garycmartin erikos: touch&hold, yes this will kinda cover it. It will be slower than a single quick tap, but may also have that groovy circle fill animation suggesting some special is going to happen.
18:05 erikos yeah, we can play with it when we have the stuff in place
18:05 can you add it to the page?
18:05 garycmartin I need to experiment a little more, but just wanted to raise that case.
18:05 silbe notes that we're past the additional 15 minutes now. Stomach grumbles...
18:06 erikos garycmartin: yeah, great
18:06 silbe: yes
18:06 is fine with closing
18:06 more async
18:07 rafael_ is now known as rafa
18:07 rafa is now known as rafael_
18:07 garycmartin #action add concerns on touch&hold feedback for when there are no hidden/advanced features being revealed on a button to the wiki - Gary
18:07 OK, same here!
18:08 :)
18:08 Starting at 5!
18:08 erikos yeay 4
18:08 manuq 4
18:08 ajay 3
18:08 tch___ 2
18:09 manuq 1
18:09 garycmartin silbe: want a 0.5?
18:09 silbe 0.4 :-P
18:10 tch___ 0.0001
18:10 Cerlyn iota
18:10 garycmartin #endmeeting
18:10 meeting Meeting ended Tue Aug 14 18:10:36 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
18:10 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-14T16:47:13.html
18:10 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]12-08-14T16:47:13

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