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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2012-08-14 15:04:58

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15:04 meeting Meeting started Tue Aug 14 15:04:58 2012 UTC. The chair is erikos. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:04 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
15:05 erikos who is around for the dev meeting?
15:06 bernie lurks again
15:06 gonzalo_ is here
15:06 erikos heh, hi bernie and gonzalo_
15:06 seen silbe as well earlier
15:06 garycmartin waves
15:06 erikos hey garycmartin
15:07 manuq <manuq!~manuq@host201.186-125-151.telecom.net.ar> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:07 silbe waves again
15:07 pflores__ around
15:07 bernie pflores__: hey man!
15:07 erikos great - let's start then
15:07 pflores__ hi bernie! Thanks for your recent mails!!
15:08 erikos - introducing new contributors
15:08 - follow up the shell port: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/GTK3/Shell (manuq)
15:08 - follow up the touch support in the shell: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]Touch/Development (erikos)
15:08 - follow up the activities port, touch addition (including gestures), releasing of new activities (gonzalo)
15:08 - maintenance etc (silbe)
15:09 any new contributors here?
15:09 anyone is new to the show and want to introduce himself?
15:09 ok, next item
15:10 #topic follow up the shell port: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/GTK3/Shell
15:10 manuq: please
15:11 manuq sorry
15:12 so, I have the control panel working
15:12 and the activities list view
15:12 and now I'm trying to fix the journal
15:12 erikos nice
15:12 bernie manuq++
15:13 erikos manuq: I hope I can get my build at your stage (/me is currently rebuilding)
15:13 manuq: so I can help you with the crash
15:13 manuq the activities list needed our custom cellrenderer that displays the activity icons and the star, that will be used in the journal too
15:14 erikos manuq: yeah, great you fixed this
15:14 manuq erikos: yes, I'm building sugar-build again to try to help you
15:15 erikos great
15:15 gonzalo_ erikos, manuq, what is the plan to land all this? looks like a big part of the work is over manuq shoulders now :(
15:15 erikos so, the page has a list of items if people want to help
15:15 manuq erikos: and you fixed the gconf_client_get_list, right?
15:15 erikos every help is highly appreciated
15:15 manuq: yes the gconf_client_get_list is fixed
15:16 gonzalo_: yeah, really every help is welcome
15:16 gonzalo_: I just kicked off the touch work, but will stand with Manu again now
15:16 gonzalo_: has to be done in the next 2 weeks basically
15:17 gonzalo_ erikos, but you are working in manuq cloned repo, right?
15:17 erikos oh yeah, the no-hippo stuff did land, please test, file bugs, fix bugs
15:18 gonzalo_: yes, is not in a state to push yet atm
15:18 manuq gonzalo_: we can rework nice patches for sugar/sugar-toolkit-gtk3 master based on the work in the branch
15:19 erikos what we really need help with atm is just more hands
15:19 so really anyone interested in making gtk+3 and touch happening give us a hand
15:20 gonzalo_: I know you are taking care of the activity side, thanks a lot for that!
15:20 manuq yes
15:20 erikos and submitting toolkit-gtk3 patches
15:21 so all I can say, is please help, either with no-hippo stabilizing, or the shell port
15:21 manuq and myself are in #sugar for further discussions
15:21 questions?
15:21 gonzalo_ anybody else interested in help?
15:22 ....(probably this is the problem)
15:22 erikos great, i think we made some noise ;p
15:22 garycmartin is focusing on the touch items at the momen
15:22 erikos garycmartin: yeah, which is the right thing ;p
15:22 garycmartin s/momen/moment
15:23 erikos good let's move on, I think we made a point
15:23 garycmartin erikos: :)
15:23 erikos #topic follow up the touch support in the shell: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]Touch/Development
15:23 so I cooked up patches so we can get a feeling for possible changes
15:24 garycmartin enjoys the cooking
15:24 erikos it will affect as well the 'mouse' behaviour in certain areas
15:24 (e.g. left click on an icon will bring up the palette)
15:24 (e.g. new frame bringup behavior in the hot corner)
15:25 garycmartin: I guess we can discuss the details design wise in the design meeting
15:25 garycmartin: and send the items as well to the list
15:25 garycmartin erikos: Yes Buddy/Ad-hoc/device instant open on left click fixes are a big improvment
15:26 gonzalo_ garycmartin, +1
15:26 erikos garycmartin: I wonder if we should get those into the no-hippo release already
15:26 garycmartin erikos: I did notice that the right Frame edge buddy icon palettes are not effected by your buddy patch (I thought they were on the same code path but perhaps not).
15:26 erikos garycmartin: as I think they make sense in general
15:26 gonzalo_ garycmartin, and solves part of the problem with visual feedback about secondary options :)
15:26 erikos garycmartin: yeah, that one I need to still code up
15:27 garycmartin: I left it as a test if you look closely enough ;))
15:27 garycmartin erikos: re makes sense in general +1
15:27 ;)
15:28 (FWIW I'm using patch to apply your patches over a fresh 12.1 install on an XO, I couldn't get far with your test instructions)
15:29 erikos garycmartin: ok, sorry if it caused trouble for you
15:29 garycmartin: hope you can run them neverless
15:29 garycmartin erikos: no problem, just worried other might struggle and give up with them.
15:29 erikos garycmartin: I can probably get them into a branch as well, might be easier
15:30 silbe erikos: yeah, I'd prefer the GTK3 port to be functionally equivalent to the GTK2 version, so we can develop UI tests on the GTK2 version and verify the GTK3 port with those. That would mean either doing functional changes on the GTK2 branch first or holding off on functional changes until the GTK3 port is completely finished, with no bugs left. The latter is probably not an option given the roadmap.
15:30 garycmartin erikos: are you using sugar-build on an XO?
15:30 erikos I first thought people would try them individually, that is why I separated them
15:30 garycmartin: I did already, for those I used the instructions I put on the wiki
15:31 manuq yes, very nice instructions
15:31 erikos silbe: some of the touch related changes need GTK3, so they can not go in now
15:32 garycmartin ah OK, that was the bit that confused me, no hint as to what the environment to start with for those instructions.
15:32 erikos silbe: but the others we can land and keep on with the port in a branch and then rebase
15:33 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]_patches_to_Sugar ?
15:33 garycmartin yea
15:33 silbe erikos: would those changes that need GTK3 be modifications of existing behaviour or just additions?
15:33 erikos garycmartin: oh, if you tested today, after I pushed the no-hippo bits, might break :/
15:33 Ariel_Calzada <Ariel_Calzada!~aricalso@> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:33 garycmartin erikos: Yes git am 0001-Make-the-palette-come-up-on​-left-click-for-the-buddy.patch broke
15:34 erikos garycmartin: sorry, sorry, will rebase
15:34 garycmartin also ./autogen-sh --prefix=/usr complained about many things and failed
15:34 erikos or better put in a branch
15:34 silbe: if you say addition, that would be touch support, right?
15:34 garycmartin But I didn't know you were using it as part of a sugar-build
15:34 erikos silbe: so there are things like touch&hold for example
15:35 garycmartin: no, I did not use sugar-build
15:36 garycmartin: just cloned the repo, in any case, I will setup a repo
15:36 silbe erikos: for the UI tests I only care about what works in GTK2, but stops working with GTK3. touch&hold is an addition, not a modification of previous behaviour.
15:36 erikos silbe: good
15:37 silbe: so yeah, let's land modifications then if possible early
15:37 (such as the left click ones)
15:37 more comments on this item?
15:38 manuq not from my side
15:38 silbe erikos: +1. Maybe we should even use separate branches for the GTK2 and GTK3 versions? That way the GTK3 port wouldn't need to block on the GTK2 changes (including UI test support).
15:38 garycmartin no, will touch on some of this in the design meeting later (if we can get that far)
15:39 erikos garycmartin: we need to get this far :)
15:39 garycmartin (that was a "no, no more comments on this item")
15:39 erikos: :)
15:39 erikos garycmartin: or handle it over email (at least we should say that this is what we want to do)
15:40 garycmartin: :)
15:40 garycmartin erikos: yes, and we could have another touch meeting later this week.
15:40 erikos silbe: yeah< I first wanted not to have to rebase the gtk3 branch often
15:40 silbe: but maybe it is ok, I will think about it a bit more
15:40 garycmartin: great
15:40 garycmartin (but asynchronous emails may be a better workflow)
15:41 erikos silbe: UI test support, you want to land it in 0.98?
15:41 silbe erikos: you wouldn't have to rebase in this case, instead you (or whoever commits the GTK2 change, for UI tests probably me) would merge the GTK2 branch into the GTK3 branch. I.e. you only need to deal with a single patch, not the entire series.
15:43 erikos silbe: but if they diverge heavily you still have some work todo
15:46 silbe erikos: that would have to be done anyway if we want something in the GTK2 version already. The only difference is when you resolve the conflict and how much effort it is. For the UI tests it's something I expect and accept.
15:47 erikos ok, so the UI test is it 0.98 work?
15:47 or do you don't know yet?
15:48 silbe if I get it to work reliably, I'm targetting 0.98, yes.
15:48 erikos ok
15:50 great, let's move on if nobody has anything more to bring up
15:50 silbe right now, there's some kind of race condition (possibly a memory management problem) that's blocking further work and will require quite a lot of work diagnosing. As we've focussed on the hippo removal series review, there's no progress on the UI test front.
15:51 erikos silbe: ahh yeah, races are bad
15:51 gonzalo_ erikos, lets continue ...
15:51 erikos gonzalo_: your turn
15:51 #topic follow up the activities port, touch addition (including gestures), releasing of new activities (gonzalo)
15:52 gonzalo_ erikos, ok, anybody working in port activities here?
15:53 garycmartin gonzalo_: I'm starting to dabble with mine.
15:53 gonzalo_ from my part, i have published ported activities (from me and humitos) in aslo, selecting sugar version 0.98
15:53 to not annoy normal users if possible
15:53 manuq gonzalo_: I appreciated your patches for the artwork
15:53 erikos gonzalo_: yeah, that is good practice
15:53 gonzalo_ manuq, great
15:54 a few problems are pending, i am trying to solve one with check box in palettes now
15:54 should be good if we can have all the ported activities published to encourage testing asap
15:55 garycmartin, dirakx, walterbender, i am looking to oyur corner :)
15:55 erikos gonzalo_: yeah, daniel will include them into testing builds
15:56 gonzalo_ sadly, no much people working in activities port today here  :(
15:56 garycmartin gonzalo_: might start to see a release or two form me later next week.
15:56 gonzalo_ garycmartin, yupi!
15:57 garycmartin, we started to look at your touch recomendation on activities
15:58 i am not sure if we can solve all, then i prepared a plan with priorities http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User[…]h_plan_activities
15:59 erikos gonzalo_: ahh, I have some thoughts as well, will add or send you
15:59 garycmartin gonzalo_: Fab, I tried to keep it quite high level, there's lot's of possibilities if we have much polish time, but not too likely in this cycle!
15:59 gonzalo_ garycmartin, erikos, please send me your copmments
16:01 erikos, when you think we will have testing images with new toolkit/artwork rpms and malit enabled?
16:01 erikos gonzalo_: on maliit peter i working
16:01 gonzalo_: I will do a release next week monday
16:01 garycmartin gonzalo_: a fair amount of UI polish will rely on new HW gfx support. I'm still not clear what we will really have available to us.
16:01 erikos gonzalo_: is that early enough?
16:03 gonzalo_ erikos, i think it's ok
16:03 silbe will the "new HW gfx support" be exclusively for XO-4 (is that the official name now?) or can we expect similar support to arrive on older hardware, too? I.e. do we need a backup plan for older hardware?
16:04 erikos if you tell me, my work is so much easier if you package up artwork and toolkit-gtk3 now, I will do it
16:04 gonzalo_: ^
16:04 gonzalo_ erikos, ok, we can coordinate
16:04 erikos gonzalo_: great
16:05 gonzalo_: shall we move on?
16:05 silbe: we will see, not to worry for now
16:05 gonzalo_ erikos, a last comment, about gestures
16:05 erikos oh sure, of course
16:05 garycmartin silbe: I'd not want to suggest something that we don't have a reasonable fallback for when the HW/drivers are not capable enough.
16:05 silbe ok
16:06 gonzalo_ erikos, we talked this on irc, repeat here
16:06 kaametza_ <kaametza_!~icarito@> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:06 gonzalo_ we need implement a few gestures, but are waiting until next week to have garnacho back
16:07 erikos yes
16:07 gonzalo_ because he implemented this in gtk, and probably is better use his implementation and later try have it supported in gtk itself
16:07 (gestures was not included in last gtk)
16:08 erikos right and the gestures we want to support are: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]elopment#Gestures
16:08 touch-and-hold, swipes (left/right/up/down), and pinch-to-zoom
16:09 silbe +1 to have this in GTK, so non-Sugar applications will benefit from it as well.
16:10 gonzalo_ erikos, nothing more from my oart
16:10 erikos silbe: yes, is the plan, but likely won't happen in 3.6
16:10 gonzalo_ part
16:11 erikos thanks gonzalo_ for all your work! and stepping up here to talk about it
16:13 great
16:13 silbe: your turn
16:13 #topic maintainership
16:13 silbe #link https://lists.sugarlabs.org/ar[…]thread.html#38893
16:15 CanoeBerry has quit IRC
16:15 silbe I've taken some time (several weeks in fact) to think about what we want(ed) to achieve with the current review process and whether there are better ways to achieve them.
16:16 erikos ok, maybe before we discuss this, I guess we can welcome Manuel as a maintainer for glucose as discussed in the email thread?
16:16 kaametza_ has quit IRC
16:16 kaametza_ <kaametza_!~icarito@> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:16 manuq :)
16:16 gonzalo_ welcome manuq!
16:17 silbe erikos: well, he's already acting as maintainer, so there's no reason not to welcome him. ;)
16:17 erikos will update the pages if their is no disagreement after the meeting
16:17 silbe: great
16:17 manuq thanks all
16:17 silbe manuq: Welcome as a Glucose maintainer! :-|
16:17 erikos silbe: so yes, there have been a few issues with the review process and maintainership
16:18 silbe: I don't fully agree with your arguments why we are in that situation but I should probably reply to that in that mail
16:18 silbe: where we agree is that we can do better
16:19 I think having another maintainer will help us
16:19 so good that Manuel will do that, and that he showed his skills already for a while, so we know what we get ;p
16:20 garycmartin :)
16:21 erikos I had some thoughts about the topic as well, and I think we just take too long for the review
16:21 manuq I'm glad
16:21 erikos manuq: :)
16:22 silbe: so, as you say, there is the blocking issue on the 2 of us for ack
16:23 now with manuel we have already three that can do reviews (and feel that being their duty) and give ack
16:23 silbe erikos: I can't speak for you, but I'm already working as fast as I can. I could give an ack faster, but it wouldn't be a good review anymore. That's why I distinguished between those two in my mail.
16:24 erikos silbe: you mean between the high level review and the in-depth review?
16:25 so I think the high-level review is the important one in terms if the ack
16:25 that is how I see it
16:25 here is an example:
16:25 - X sends a patch
16:25 - Y (not a maintainer does a review)
16:25 silbe erikos: I'm calling them "short reviews" rather than "high-level reviews" because for me a "high-level review" includes reviewing the interactions between components (i.e. a review on the API level). That's probably just a difference in choice of words, but I'd like to avoid confusion due to conflicting uses of terms here.
16:26 erikos - Z (a maintainer) looks at the high level, and ack if he is good with it and nothing spectacular springs at his eye
16:26 silbe: yeah, I think we mean the same
16:27 gonzalo_ silbe, i think is logic request a in depth review if the patch is from a new comer, but if is from another maintainer, is blocking a lot the development right now
16:27 erikos gonzalo_: yeah, that is probably a good way of putting it
16:28 gonzalo_ more if we had only two maintainers for sugar :(
16:28 erikos yes
16:28 gonzalo_ probably when moe people was involved worked better ...
16:28 silbe gonzalo_: FWIW, I prefer my own patches to be reviewed (in depth), too. I'm just a human and make mistakes. I also like to learn better ways to solve problems.
16:29 gonzalo_ silbe, yes, we old make mistakes, and can be solved, we work with software not marble :)
16:29 erikos silbe: sure, me is the same, but there is a limit to that
16:30 gonzalo_ nobody question reviews are good, the problem is how do a good use of the time we have
16:30 erikos silbe: I think this is again where Gonzalo's rule applies ;p
16:31 garycmartin: (oups we should wrap up at some point I guess)
16:31 gonzalo_ he he s/old/all (i am geting older :) )
16:32 erikos gonzalo_: I just wanted to start talking about maturity...:)
16:32 garycmartin erikos: ;) 3min into the Design Meeting...
16:32 silbe gonzalo_: sure. The reason I like reviews is that it's usually much easier to catch hard to diagnose bugs when they are introduced, rather than having to track them down in the live system. But I'm afraid you are right that we simply can't afford to do in-depth reviews for most patches for the time being. I'm just hoping things will get better again in the future.
16:32 CanoeBerry <CanoeBerry!~CanoeBerr@c-98-216-245-64.hsd1.ma.comcast.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:33 silbe ok, so what do you think about the two changes I proposed?
16:33 are they uncontroversial enough to decide now, or should we discuss on-list first?
16:34 erikos silbe: can you just illustrate them again with a simple example?
16:34 silbe: (maybe just the first item for today regarding reviews)
16:34 example 1: I submit a patch (maintainer)
16:35 example 2: Gonzalo submits a patch (non-maintainer)
16:36 silbe: (if too much of a rush we can do as well in the list)
16:36 silbe erikos: https://patchwork.sugarlabs.org/patch/826/ is an example of a standards-compliance fix that I'd like to get accepted in the future (VII. in the mail).
16:37 garycmartin Are folks waiting here of the Design Meeting (other than some of those here already who may stay on?)
16:37 ajay is :)
16:38 silbe erikos: re. making reviews by senior developers optional and non-blocking, I'd trust both OLPC and AC to do good enough in-house reviews and would only require the patches to be posted on sugar-devel and ack'ed there by one of the upstream maintainers. I don't expect to have to do an in-depth review before ack'ing a patch from OLPC or AC.
16:39 erikos silbe: yeah, I think there are two important bits here, groups do in house in depths reviews
16:39 silbe: and b that the patch is sent to the ml
16:40 silbe: and if controversial leave it there so others can react
16:40 silbe: or ask in the dev meeting
16:41 kaametza_ has quit IRC
16:42 silbe erikos: at least where we expect patches to be controversial, yes.
16:43 erikos silbe: and if a patch is sent and you spot it as, hey this is bad quality, you can always tell the submitter to work over it
16:44 so, yes, sounds good to me
16:44 we can keep on on the ml (as well your other point)
16:44 silbe erikos: great!
16:44 erikos garycmartin: we should maybe leave room for you
16:44 gonzalo_ silbe, about https://patchwork.sugarlabs.org/patch/826/ you are probably the only user, right? :)
16:45 garycmartin erikos: Perhaps carry it on via asynchronous email?
16:45 erikos garycmartin: yes, will do
16:45 thanks everyone for attending
16:45 sorry garycmartin
16:45 #endmeeting
16:45 meeting Meeting ended Tue Aug 14 16:45:51 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
16:45 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-14T15:04:58.html
16:45 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]12-08-14T15:04:58

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