| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 16:30 |
meeting |
Meeting started Tue Jul 31 16:30:26 2012 UTC. The chair is garycmartin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. |
| 16:30 |
|
Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting |
| 16:30 |
dirakx |
Hello. |
| 16:30 |
garycmartin |
Hi folks, who do we have today? |
| 16:30 |
ajay |
raises his hand. |
| 16:31 |
walterbender |
is here |
| 16:31 |
silbe |
waves |
| 16:31 |
garycmartin |
Hi guys, perhaps we should give other another few minutes? |
| 16:32 |
|
just pings the sugar channel |
| 16:34 |
|
Hmmm, OK, I guess some others are tied up at GUADEC still. |
| 16:35 |
|
#link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Design_Team/Meetings |
| 16:35 |
|
#topic Example support for activities |
| 16:35 |
|
#link http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]-July/038588.html |
| 16:36 |
|
walterbender: this is one you've raised in a couple of Sugar cycles at least now ;) |
| 16:37 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: I think we are finally on to a simple solution |
| 16:38 |
|
I am convinced the solution is not to add journal spam, even though it is the right way in theory :) |
| 16:39 |
garycmartin |
If I remember there were two possible use cases I've seen go by. 1) Accessing example objects from inside an Activity bundle; 2) modifying/adding objects to existing Activity bundles. I guess (1) is what we're focusing on now (simpler solution) |
| 16:39 |
walterbender |
yes... |
| 16:40 |
|
to manage that from the journal makes life too difficult for an activity developer. |
| 16:40 |
|
I'd need to find what was already in the journal, what had changed, etc. |
| 16:41 |
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managing it from within the bundle is trivial |
| 16:41 |
|
and tincho is working on a simple chooser-like inteface |
| 16:41 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: So we would not need to expose anything in the Journal volumes toolbar. Just modify the Object chooser to access and display a hardcoded folder inside the bundle structure. |
| 16:42 |
|
walterbender: So there are implementation issues with re-using the ObjectChooser code? |
| 16:42 |
walterbender |
I think that is the current plan |
| 16:42 |
|
I don't think it will be difficult |
| 16:43 |
silbe |
walterbender: we should probably distinguish between Journal (the GUI) and the data store (where the users Journal entries get stored) here. Both the Object Chooser (which is GUI, too) and the Journal could show entries that are stored in Activity bundles, instead of putting them into the data store. |
| 16:43 |
walterbender |
silbe: agreed. that is the design issue |
| 16:43 |
|
silbe: some indication of the read-only/copy-on-write nature of these objects |
| 16:44 |
|
garycmartin: in Turtle Art, I use a box instead of the Journal icon to indicate things coming from the file system... maybe a metaphor we can expand upon? |
| 16:45 |
|
open to suggestions |
| 16:45 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: And the use case is to allow an activity to select a new example/template from within it's interface? |
| 16:45 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: yes |
| 16:45 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: Yes the box == collections |
| 16:45 |
walterbender |
with the intention that once modified, these selections would be in the Journal |
| 16:46 |
silbe |
garycmartin: there is some technical issue with showing several "storage devices" that are not actually mountpoints. However, that's something we need to fix anyway. So don't let that influence the design decision. |
| 16:46 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: Well yes, if you select an example object in Activity, and then Stop, you will have it in your Journal. |
| 16:47 |
silbe |
walterbender: I would be thinking more in the direction of "stock items" / "off-the-shelf items" rather than "file system". No idea how to represent that graphically, though. |
| 16:47 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: that is how TA works at least |
| 16:48 |
|
silbe: not sure where the stock items would be except in the file system (in practice) |
| 16:48 |
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silbe: I do make some stock artwork in some of my apps in Python (Python generated SVG, for example) |
| 16:48 |
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silbe: so yes, maybe it is not always in a file system |
| 16:49 |
garycmartin |
So the ObjectChooser happily displays multiple volumes these days, can we add the Activity icon in as another icon, and and modify the ObjectChooser API to allow authors to have this selected by default? |
| 16:49 |
walterbender |
silbe: can you speak to gary's point? |
| 16:50 |
silbe |
walterbender: the distinction is between where the items are physically located and what they represent to the user. The file system is a low-level detail, like it is with the data store. |
| 16:51 |
walterbender |
silbe: yes... we should have an abstraction layer, but from the activity developer point of view, the distinction is rarely relevant |
| 16:52 |
|
silbe: but I do admit it is a pain to have to manage both file system and datastore access in parallel |
| 16:52 |
garycmartin |
The ObjectChooser could just test for a default named folder in the bundle, and display an extra icon (the Activity icon I'd suggest). It would function just like when you point ObjectChooser to a USB stick volume. |
| 16:52 |
silbe |
walterbender, garycmartin: for the purpose of this discussion, you can assume that's possible. It's an implementation problem that we can solve. |
| 16:52 |
walterbender |
silbe: and if I want to introduce additional, computed objects, my code ends up a mess |
| 16:53 |
|
silbe: that'd be great |
| 16:54 |
garycmartin |
So in the mail list Martin raised the issue of backwards compatibility as well, "One important thing that is missing from the design thread is to consider the backward compatibility with existing version of sugar." |
| 16:54 |
silbe |
walterbender: It's fine to tell the Activity developer about the file system. I'm talking about how to present it to the user. |
| 16:55 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: If you make your 'collections' icon call up this new ObjectChooser, it'll be a red flag day for support unless you add in fallback code. |
| 16:56 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: I assume I'll have to maintain the code in Turtle Art itself for a while... |
| 16:56 |
silbe |
garycmartin: for an intermediate period Activity developers could provide Journal Entry Bundles with all the example entries for users on older Sugar versions to use |
| 16:58 |
walterbender |
silbe: unless I am misunderstanding, I think that puts an unwieldy burden on the activity developer... when I upgrade to a new version, I need to find all the Journal Entry Bundles to see if they need replacing... ugh |
| 16:58 |
silbe |
garycmartin: API can and should be versioned. If the new Object Chooser API isn't available, the old one (or possibly even a private copy, for this particular case) can be used. |
| 16:59 |
garycmartin |
So one issue I see with the ObjectChooser route. It will be very tempting to treat this like an Open File dialogue in other platforms. Users would likely get used to calling up this dialogue and switching it to the Journal and then "Loading" some past journal entry into the activity (often wiping their existing work). |
| 16:59 |
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dirakx has quit IRC |
| 17:00 |
silbe |
walterbender: the Activity developer only needs to export the example entries once (per Activity version) and offer the whole bundle for download. |
| 17:01 |
garycmartin |
silbe: walterbender releases new versions like no one else on this planet ;) The journal would be flooded! ;) |
| 17:02 |
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silbe: (and walterbender includes many examples) |
| 17:03 |
|
back to my above ObjectChooser issue. We could have ObjectChooser _only_ show the Activity example content when activated in that mode. |
| 17:03 |
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dirakx <dirakx!~rafael 190.159.157.143> has joined #sugar-meeting |
| 17:04 |
silbe |
garycmartin: If you fear confusion, that's a valid concern. As for possible data destruction: The Activity should save the session before loading the example entry (it's definitely a major change). With gdatastore, the old version will be retained. We could even add API to sugar-toolkit(-gtk3) that Activity authors can call to take care of "major changes" saves, possibly saving a copy for the case of old data stores. |
| 17:06 |
|
garycmartin: well, only Restore can extract multi-entry JEBs (the Journal only supports single-entry JEBs) and it takes a lot of care when extracting entries that already exist in the data store. |
| 17:07 |
walterbender |
silbe: is it really detecting when duplicate entries are created? |
| 17:09 |
garycmartin |
silbe: So yes, versioning before loading an example entry could help, someone looking through the examples would end up with them all in their Journal. Hmmmm... |
| 17:09 |
silbe |
walterbender: I wouldn't call them duplicates. Every entry is identified by its object_id (uid in the case of the old data store). The bundle may have an older, the same or a newer version than the one that's in the data store. Restore acts accordingly, by only overwriting the entry if its newer. |
| 17:10 |
walterbender |
has been operating on the assumption that we don't have versioning yet :P |
| 17:10 |
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satellit_RPi has quit IRC |
| 17:10 |
silbe |
garycmartin: they'd only see all of the copies if they run an old data store ;) |
| 17:10 |
gonzalo_ |
the plan is copy the examples in the journal? |
| 17:10 |
silbe |
has :-P |
| 17:10 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, silbe, the plan is copy the examples in the journal? |
| 17:11 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: only when we have real versioning, I'd argue... or else we have a journal spam problem |
| 17:11 |
garycmartin |
I guess even without a versioned Journal, we could have this new ObjectChooser behaviour save out the existing activity before loading the new object. |
| 17:12 |
silbe |
gonzalo_: not exactly. a copy would only be created if the user loaded the example. |
| 17:12 |
gonzalo_ |
garycmartin, saving before loading the example should be responsability of the activity |
| 17:13 |
|
silbe, why is needed copy the example in the journal? |
| 17:14 |
silbe |
gonzalo_: it is part of the current activity session and saved as that |
| 17:14 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: I suppose it really depends on the activity... but in most of the ones I write, once an example is opened, I expect/hope the user makes some changes |
| 17:15 |
silbe |
gonzalo_: the copy would be to prevent loosing previous content by loading an example. With a version support enabled data store, it would just be a version, not a copy. |
| 17:15 |
gonzalo_ |
silbe, probably should be saved only if modified |
| 17:15 |
silbe |
gonzalo_: yes, that's the general idea. |
| 17:16 |
|
if you don't make any chances to an example before loading another example, I wouldn't consider that a major change |
| 17:16 |
gonzalo_ |
ok |
| 17:16 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo_: silbe: though that would not be obvious to a user... |
| 17:17 |
|
gonzalo_: silbe they would end up with a Journal that has some things an not others. |
| 17:18 |
gonzalo_ |
garycmartin, the point should be: don't loose changes done by the user. if the user has not modified the example can take it again from the examples box |
| 17:18 |
garycmartin |
The in Activity opening of objects really does break up the Journal metaphor even more (Walter already does this in TA, but not many other Activities do this yet). |
| 17:18 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: I draw the line on adding things to the Journal without the user taking any action... If I load an example and it ends up in the Journal, I can understand that. If I launch an activity and end up with lots of extra Journal entries, that is spam. |
| 17:19 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: +1 |
| 17:20 |
silbe |
garycmartin: I think part of the problem is that we still have a mix between Object View and Action View (though more like an Object View than an Action View) instead of having them separate. |
| 17:20 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: So we just need you to start versioning your examples ;P |
| 17:20 |
walterbender |
well, tincho is doing the coding :P |
| 17:23 |
garycmartin |
So
.. if a duplicate/version is made as you choose a new example, I guess the ObjectChooser could still show other volumes and the Journal. Users could launch an activity, and use this new feature like a conventional File Open... |
| 17:23 |
|
(without ever going back to the Journal to resume!) |
| 17:24 |
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That would pretty much trample over the entire Activity vs. activity metaphor. |
| 17:26 |
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OK we've been at this one point 55min |
| 17:26 |
|
Can we pick this up on the mail-list? |
| 17:27 |
silbe |
garycmartin: +1 |
| 17:27 |
garycmartin |
I'll add it back to the end of the agenda for the next meeting. |
| 17:28 |
|
Do folks have time for another item, or should we call it quits for today? |
| 17:28 |
walterbender |
I need to get going... |
| 17:28 |
m_anish |
garycmartin, can we quickly discuss the lease one |
| 17:28 |
|
it should be quick |
| 17:28 |
|
i think there already is some consensus on the m-l |
| 17:28 |
garycmartin |
(would be "Lease expiry information display in My Settings", then "Journal multi-select") |
| 17:29 |
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m_anish: James and Daniel both had some unresolved issues with it. |
| 17:30 |
|
(James: Didn't think it should be in the 'Identity' section; Daniel: didn't understand the use case or problem that needs to be solved) |
| 17:31 |
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m_anish: Can we pick this up on the mail thread, this way it's first on the agenda next week! ;) |
| 17:31 |
m_anish |
garycmartin, okay |
| 17:31 |
garycmartin |
#topic Meeting wrap up |
| 17:31 |
m_anish |
missed Daniel's reply somehow, will reply |
| 17:32 |
garycmartin |
OK, sorry we were tied up on one topic, I should try to move on sooner if there seems lot's of discussion still to be had (which should mainly happen on mail-list/wiki). |
| 17:34 |
ajay |
garycmartin: did u happen to try the patched sugar rpm that m_anish uploaded, containing the fixes for 2/3 action items for multi-select? |
| 17:34 |
garycmartin |
ajay: I have feedback and completed action items from last meeting (and I have tested with 100's of journal entries, and have been testing with new rpm from m_anish on the DX image). |
| 17:34 |
|
ajay: Typing at the same time :) |
| 17:34 |
ajay |
garycmartin: ahh.. ok . .would love to hear :) |
| 17:34 |
|
garycmartin: :P |
| 17:34 |
garycmartin |
I'll take my notes over to the mail-list, was intending to bring them up here, but shouldn't hold off another week! |
| 17:35 |
ajay |
garycmartin: ok.. that would be fine.. m-l would be fine |
| 17:35 |
garycmartin |
OK thanks all, time for the count down, we're only 5min over time!! :) |
| 17:35 |
|
5 |
| 17:35 |
ajay |
4 |
| 17:36 |
m_anish |
3 |
| 17:36 |
gonzalo_ |
2 |
| 17:36 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: ^ 1? |
| 17:36 |
walterbender |
1 |
| 17:36 |
garycmartin |
:) |
| 17:36 |
|
#endmeeting |
| 17:36 |
meeting |
Meeting ended Tue Jul 31 17:36:52 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4) |
| 17:36 |
|
Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-31T16:30:26.html |
| 17:36 |
|
Log: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]12-07-31T16:30:26 |