| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 15:03 |
meeting |
Meeting started Tue Mar 20 15:03:51 2012 UTC. The chair is gonzalo_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. |
| 15:03 |
|
Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting |
| 15:04 |
|
manuq <manuq!~manuq 190.194.52.117> has joined #sugar-meeting |
| 15:04 |
gonzalo_ |
maybe you know, today is erikos out, and i stolen the chair :) |
| 15:04 |
manuq |
waves |
| 15:04 |
gonzalo_ |
hi manuq :) |
| 15:05 |
|
then the idea is talk a little more about activities state |
| 15:05 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo_: welcome to the hot seat :) |
| 15:05 |
silbe |
gonzalo_: this is open source, no need to steal. Just fork! ;) |
| 15:05 |
gonzalo_ |
:) |
| 15:05 |
|
the last we we was working in our os4 image |
| 15:06 |
|
the bugs we found are http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User[…]ng/os4#activities |
| 15:06 |
|
and we updated a few activities, |
| 15:07 |
|
i have a list here, and would be good if you can confirm if the maintainers are ok |
| 15:07 |
|
http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User[…]ate_of_Activities |
| 15:07 |
|
m_anish, silbe, dirakx, garycmartin, walterbender, manuq, please check ^ |
| 15:07 |
garycmartin |
looks |
| 15:07 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: peter confirmed that Abacus v32 is all set |
| 15:08 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, great |
| 15:08 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: so it is time to jump in and start packaging for Sugar3??? |
| 15:09 |
garycmartin |
is about to release a Calculate-39 (with the great fixes from Miguel) |
| 15:09 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, i think we are in a better shape now |
| 15:09 |
|
garycmartin, great, is very good for new volunteers see that, thanks! |
| 15:10 |
manuq |
gonzalo_: I released Implode 11 and Labyrinth 12, time to update the list |
| 15:10 |
|
I'll do it |
| 15:10 |
gonzalo_ |
manuq, wait |
| 15:11 |
|
callkalpa <callkalpa!~callkalpa61.245.165.7> has joined #sugar-meeting |
| 15:11 |
gonzalo_ |
manuq, these are the versions in os4, i put a note with the updates to help peter to see all he need update |
| 15:11 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: oops. I just updated the table |
| 15:11 |
gonzalo_ |
manuq, there are a note aboutr your activities already |
| 15:11 |
|
walterbender, :) |
| 15:12 |
|
hi callkalpa, welcome! |
| 15:12 |
callkalpa |
hi all |
| 15:12 |
manuq |
gonzalo_: ok! |
| 15:13 |
gonzalo_ |
ok, no comments about the maintainer list? is ok? |
| 15:13 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: I guess the one thing I am still up in the air about before launching into updating all of my activities to Sugar3 is the issue of backward compatibility. Did we ultimately reject cscott's approach? |
| 15:14 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo_: what type of errors on the maintainer list were you looking for? |
| 15:14 |
|
just checked the activities he maintains |
| 15:14 |
gonzalo_ |
garycmartin, check if the maintainers are right |
| 15:15 |
|
walterbender, we didn't rejected or approved it |
| 15:16 |
|
right now, porting to gtk3 means maintain two versions or stop working in gtk2 |
| 15:16 |
|
like you know |
| 15:17 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: seems like now is the time to decide on our recommended approach |
| 15:17 |
manuq |
walterbender: can you point us to cscott's approach? |
| 15:17 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, did you tried use cscott's idea? |
| 15:18 |
walterbender |
will look for the example in git... |
| 15:18 |
manuq |
walterbender: does it requiere extra effort? |
| 15:18 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo_: FWIW my plan was to stop adding features to gtk2 versions, critical bug fix only, and focus new feature work on gtk3 versions. |
| 15:18 |
gonzalo_ |
garycmartin, yes, have sense |
| 15:19 |
manuq |
maybe we can leave a compatible approach to the maintainer |
| 15:19 |
gonzalo_ |
another interesting news is this http://www.piware.de/2012/03/p[…]-3-1-92-released/ |
| 15:19 |
manuq |
so is up to the maintainer to decide |
| 15:19 |
|
re Browse, for example, will be too much for keeping compat |
| 15:19 |
walterbender |
manuq: http://git.sugarlabs.org/~csco[…]util/gtkcompat.py |
| 15:19 |
manuq |
checks |
| 15:20 |
gonzalo_ |
manuq, yes, there are activities where should be very difficult |
| 15:21 |
|
walterbender, did you read http://www.piware.de/2012/03/p[…]-3-1-92-released/ ? |
| 15:22 |
walterbender |
interesting that maintainer of pygtkcompat module talks about it as a temporary transition... |
| 15:22 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, well, we need a temporary solution too :) |
| 15:22 |
walterbender |
suggests we may as well move whole-hog into Sugar3 as per Plan A |
| 15:23 |
|
gonzalo_: I think the idea of maintenance patches is enough of a temporary solution |
| 15:23 |
gonzalo_ |
ok |
| 15:23 |
manuq |
+1 |
| 15:23 |
garycmartin |
+1 |
| 15:24 |
walterbender |
I can see dealing with i18n update for a quite a while, however :P |
| 15:24 |
gonzalo_ |
then we can do like we are doing in browse / read, release point gtk2 versions |
| 15:24 |
|
only with fixes |
| 15:25 |
|
probably we should suggest a branch /numbering standard, right? |
| 15:25 |
manuq |
yes, bug fixes, string translations included, get a new dotted version |
| 15:26 |
gonzalo_ |
i have another comment about porting to gtk3 |
| 15:27 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo_: Are activity releases with decimal points OK (bug fix releases 25.1 25.2 25.3 etc). I just don't see many folks using this yet. Wanted to make sure it's working well before we _really_ need decimal point versions. |
| 15:27 |
gonzalo_ |
garycmartin, is working ok |
| 15:27 |
|
we are using it |
| 15:27 |
garycmartin |
My worry is older Sugar distros not updating to the latest version correctly. |
| 15:28 |
gonzalo_ |
garycmartin, older than 10.1.3 will not work |
| 15:28 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: point of information: how soon would you like the Sugar3 activities? |
| 15:28 |
|
gonzalo_: alas, that is most of Peru and .UY? |
| 15:29 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, sadly, i don't know what versions are running in most deployments |
| 15:30 |
|
m_anish, do you know what is the suppport of dotted versions in dextrose releases? |
| 15:30 |
|
silbe, ? ^ |
| 15:31 |
m_anish |
gonzalo_, where? updater? IIRC they're supported |
| 15:31 |
garycmartin |
Hmmmm, well I might use the old/nasty trick of bumping up my activity versions by +10 and hope that's enough space for bug fix releases. |
| 15:31 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, in the next 17 image (os5) i hope we will have a almost finished sugar-toolkit-gtk3 |
| 15:32 |
|
garycmartin, i think will be better if all do the same, people will be confused about what version is for gtk3/2 |
| 15:32 |
|
(people will be confused anyway, the situation is confussing :/) |
| 15:33 |
m_anish |
gonzalo_, we're not doing anything special in sugar-core (in dx) specifically related to dotted versions. our code is based on top of 0.94.1 |
| 15:33 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo_: but there's no point releasing bug fixes for old Sugar users if almost none of them can get them :( |
| 15:33 |
gonzalo_ |
m_anish, dextrose 1 was ased in 10.1.3, right? |
| 15:33 |
m_anish |
gonzalo_, yep dx1 and 2 |
| 15:33 |
walterbender |
bernie: ^^ ? |
| 15:34 |
gonzalo_ |
m_anish, ok |
| 15:34 |
walterbender |
if that is accurate, we should be OK in .UY |
| 15:34 |
m_anish |
gonzalo_, uhm wait! sorry for the dumb ques 10,.1.3 is 0.88? |
| 15:34 |
|
gonzalo_, dx1 and 2 were f11+0.88 |
| 15:34 |
garycmartin |
thought some testing went on with dotted version numbers to make sure things didn't break old Sugar builds. |
| 15:35 |
walterbender |
and since .PE never uses ASLO, it is seemingly moot. |
| 15:35 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, then you think is ok use dotted versions? |
| 15:35 |
|
reubencaron, ping |
| 15:36 |
reubencaron |
gonzalo_: pong |
| 15:36 |
icarito |
m_anish, 10.1.3 is sugar 0.84 |
| 15:36 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: I think so. but it would be good to double check with the various deployments if we can. |
| 15:36 |
m_anish |
icarito, yah i thought so right after i pressed enter ;) |
| 15:36 |
gonzalo_ |
reubencaron, do you know what images are used in the deployments? |
| 15:36 |
reubencaron |
gonzalo_: for the most part |
| 15:37 |
icarito |
gonzalo_, peru basically uses 10.1.2 or something |
| 15:37 |
gonzalo_ |
icarito, m_anish then we need check if you ported dotted versions to 0.88 |
| 15:37 |
icarito |
"Sugar 8 Peru" is based on 10.1.? releases |
| 15:37 |
m_anish |
gonzalo_, fwiw, in au they use a custom version of 10.1.3 (but they'll be moving to something based on 11.x pretty soon) |
| 15:37 |
reubencaron |
icarito: but i'm not sure how much of peru was updated |
| 15:37 |
m_anish |
gonzalo_, okay, details pls? :) any bud-id? |
| 15:37 |
|
*bug |
| 15:37 |
reubencaron |
there was a push about a year ago to get that update pushed out |
| 15:37 |
icarito |
gonzalo_, dotted versions don't work with 0.84 ? |
| 15:37 |
reubencaron |
if machines in PE were not updated they would still be on 703 |
| 15:38 |
walterbender |
according to the data I got from dogi, there is essentially zero activity on ASLO from Peru |
| 15:38 |
icarito |
walterbender, that is explained by essentially zero conectivity in peru |
| 15:38 |
|
like we've been saying for long time |
| 15:38 |
gonzalo_ |
reubencaron, we are trying to define if is safe use dotted versions to do versions for sugar gtk2 |
| 15:38 |
icarito |
but we are addressing this with Sugar Network |
| 15:38 |
walterbender |
icarito: you are preaching to the choir... |
| 15:39 |
gonzalo_ |
reubencaron, and dotted versions are supported from 10.1.3 |
| 15:39 |
walterbender |
icarito: but the point here is that we should not hold up development for a deployment that is not using the resources... |
| 15:39 |
icarito |
gonzalo_, if you point me to a dotted bundle maybe I can try in a "Sugar 8" image |
| 15:39 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo_: I can flash an XO here with an original Sugar build and test what it does with a dotted version - if I remember it ignores the dotted part but does not crash/die, and back then .xo bundles would just install over whatever was there withe their contents. |
| 15:39 |
gonzalo_ |
reubencaron, then we need what deployments have older versions |
| 15:40 |
|
icarito, ok |
| 15:40 |
reubencaron |
walterbender: i agree |
| 15:40 |
m_anish |
gonzalo_, would this be a problem for existing deployments that use ASLO (and dotted version support isnt thr!?) |
| 15:40 |
silbe |
icarito: dotted version support was introduced in 0.92.0 and backported to 0.84, first shipped in 0.84.14. |
| 15:41 |
m_anish |
gonzalo_, walterbender i'd imagine kids in both uy and py would use ASLO |
| 15:41 |
reubencaron |
gonzalo_: I would say the majority have updated; however, I do not know to what extent PE was able to complete it's update |
| 15:41 |
walterbender |
icarito: when you put resources on the local server, you can always repackage the activities to use a non-dotted scheme if necessary |
| 15:41 |
icarito |
silbe, thanks for the info, will check exactly what sugar version is in "Sugar 8 Peru" then |
| 15:41 |
m_anish |
silbe, when did this happen (approx date?) |
| 15:42 |
icarito |
walterbender yes one more reason to provide our own custom updated image in schools we intervene |
| 15:42 |
reubencaron |
I belive Sugar 8 Peru was 10.1.3 |
| 15:42 |
silbe |
m_anish: November 2010 |
| 15:42 |
icarito |
reubencaron, it was based on 10.1.2 cycle i think |
| 15:42 |
gonzalo_ |
icarito, you have dotted versions to test here http://dev.laptop.org/~gonzalo/activities/ |
| 15:42 |
icarito |
it has some bugs 10.1.3 doesnt have |
| 15:42 |
|
thanks gonzalo_ |
| 15:43 |
m_anish |
silbe, ok then it might be in dx2.. i'll have to check... bernie by any chance you know the status of dotted version support in dx1? |
| 15:43 |
silbe |
icarito: the important thing to note is that Sugar 0.86.x and 0.88.x do _not_ support dotted versions, even though 0.84.14+ does. |
| 15:43 |
walterbender |
icarito: also, there is Abacus-30.1 on ASLO |
| 15:43 |
m_anish |
#action m_anish check dotted version support in dx1/2 |
| 15:43 |
reubencaron |
icarito: ah yes you're correct they had two different versions the Sugar 8 Peru for the primary kids was 10.1.2 and the Gnome only build was 10.1.3 |
| 15:43 |
gonzalo_ |
m_anish, thanks |
| 15:44 |
m_anish |
gonzalo_, silbe however, doesnt this reflect poorly on the versioning system (not being backwards compatible) maybe something to consider going forward? |
| 15:44 |
gonzalo_ |
m_anish, can you explain? |
| 15:45 |
silbe |
m_anish: there are a few reflections on the dotted version support and how it was handled, but that's something for another day (with a nice cold beer). ;) |
| 15:45 |
icarito |
reubencaron, thanks! good to know you have the info sometimes hard to find here |
| 15:45 |
m_anish |
silbe, ok, i'll let pass ;) |
| 15:45 |
gonzalo_ |
ok |
| 15:46 |
|
then, there are agreement we can use the dotted versions for gtk2 activities with bug fixes? |
| 15:46 |
|
can we agree on this? |
| 15:46 |
m_anish |
gonzalo_, you mean in ASLO? I still have to check whether they're supported in dx1/2. otw i guess its going to be a problem for uy/py |
| 15:47 |
gonzalo_ |
m_anish, yes, in aslo |
| 15:47 |
|
m_anish, ok, we can wait for your test and decide in the next meeting |
| 15:47 |
m_anish |
gonzalo_, +1! |
| 15:47 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: we can do to Sugar3 ports in parallel withreconfiming the numbering decision |
| 15:47 |
m_anish |
gonzalo_, i'll have that info by next weeks' meeting |
| 15:48 |
gonzalo_ |
garycmartin, is ok for you? |
| 15:49 |
garycmartin |
thinking... |
| 15:49 |
gonzalo_ |
i propose decide a coordinate scheme the next week |
| 15:51 |
garycmartin |
+1 for following up on this for the next meeting. I'd certainly like to do a quick rough test here to see if dotted versions do something nasty to an old Sugar build. |
| 15:51 |
gonzalo_ |
ok |
| 15:52 |
|
anybody else? :) |
| 15:52 |
m_anish |
garycmartin, not sure if its still there, but wasnt there an instance of ASLO just for testing... activities-testing.sugarlabs.org alsroot might know. |
| 15:52 |
silbe |
garycmartin: thanks for volunteering to do the test! |
| 15:52 |
gonzalo_ |
#agreed next meeting decide numbering scheme to gtk2/3 activities |
| 15:53 |
garycmartin |
(ideally we use dotted versioning for the gtk2 bug releases, as long as dotted versions work on ASLO for new builds and old builds don't explode in a cloud of 0's and 1's) |
| 15:53 |
gonzalo_ |
yes |
| 15:53 |
|
ok |
| 15:53 |
silbe |
m_anish: AIUI activities-testing.sl.o is for testing ASLO itself, not content. But if you don't "publish" the activity version, most users won't see it and they'll get a scary warning not to use it. |
| 15:54 |
m_anish |
silbe, ah right |
| 15:55 |
gonzalo_ |
about porting to gtk3, would be good if we start then we can found problems earlier |
| 15:55 |
|
by example gstreamer is not ready |
| 15:55 |
|
i don't know who else will have this problem |
| 15:55 |
|
but .... |
| 15:55 |
|
walterbender, measure use gstreamer? |
| 15:57 |
|
hmm, we lost walterbender ? |
| 15:57 |
|
garycmartin, did you tried os4? |
| 15:57 |
manuq |
so gonzalo_, we should check the sucrose activities? |
| 15:58 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo_: os4, no. I'm waiting for an XO image, I don't have a Fedora-17 VM setup here. |
| 15:59 |
gonzalo_ |
manuq, why sucrose? |
| 15:59 |
|
garycmartin, os4 is a xo-1.5 image |
| 15:59 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: sorry. got a phone call... yes measure (and turtle art and portfolio) use gstreamer |
| 15:59 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo_: damn, only have XO-1 and XO-1.75 here. |
| 15:59 |
manuq |
gonzalo_: I mean, main activities? |
| 15:59 |
gonzalo_ |
garycmartin, :( |
| 16:00 |
|
manuq, yeah main activities |
| 16:00 |
|
all the activities we include need to be ported |
| 16:01 |
|
walterbender, hmm, will be a problem , probably |
| 16:01 |
|
walterbender, has you tried? |
| 16:01 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: haven't tried yet. |
| 16:02 |
|
gonzalo_: I suppose I will try with measure first. |
| 16:02 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, i have tried with Read activity, basic play works, but no the messages in the gstreamer bus |
| 16:02 |
|
ok, can we change to the next topic? |
| 16:03 |
|
i have a question for you walterbender |
| 16:03 |
|
walterbender, remember the proposal of metada for activities? |
| 16:03 |
walterbender |
yes |
| 16:03 |
|
gonzalo_: I thought it was tabled for the time being |
| 16:04 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, I thought you will propose a standard way to save the metadata |
| 16:05 |
|
then if the activity maintainers could implement it , they can |
| 16:05 |
|
walterbender, may be i was wrong |
| 16:05 |
walterbender |
What I was proposing was a standard way to identify metadata you wanted to have appear in the Journal detail view beyond the description and tags |
| 16:06 |
|
but I got push back on the idea |
| 16:06 |
|
gonzalo_: the specific problem I am trying to solve is a way to give learners feedback |
| 16:07 |
|
gonzalo_: most of the efforts to date (in Sugar and otherwise) are geared towards giving feedback to administrators, not learners. |
| 16:07 |
|
gonzalo_: I though the journal was the correct place to do this |
| 16:07 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, there was interest from the learning team on this too |
| 16:07 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: but I find the description and tags to be very limiiting |
| 16:08 |
|
gonzalo_: yes... they very much endorsed the idea |
| 16:08 |
|
gonzalo_: the approach I think we may want to take is a general extension to the detail view that allows for display of additional text and images |
| 16:09 |
|
this would work for the "badge" program as well |
| 16:10 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, and the data will be metadata generated by the activities, fight? |
| 16:10 |
|
right? |
| 16:10 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: yes |
| 16:10 |
|
gonzalo_: but that was the cause of the fight :) |
| 16:10 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, how can move this forward? |
| 16:11 |
walterbender |
I suppose I need to make a new Feature proposal |
| 16:11 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, and/or start discussing in sugar-devel |
| 16:11 |
walterbender |
yup |
| 16:11 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: All I saw re Journal integration was a proposal to add yet another text box into the details view to displayed misc metadata text output additionally saved by an Activity. What was the use case, how does this help the learner? Would it be misc hints "Why no try using the accelerometer block next time?" type thing. |
| 16:12 |
gonzalo_ |
garycmartin, i think is more related to achievments? |
| 16:13 |
walterbender |
I was not too much more sophisticated than that from the Sugar point of view. |
| 16:13 |
|
but we developed with .PY a series of rubrics to use in a number of activities to trigger such hints and feedback |
| 16:14 |
|
we are experimenting with a small subset in Miami at the Holmes school |
| 16:14 |
|
but only capturing the metadata, not displaying it in the Journal :P |
| 16:15 |
silbe |
walterbender: FWIW, I'm not opposed to showing additional metadata in the details view. The devil is just in the details (no pun intended) of what to show and how. Also, depending on the exact purpose, a special-purpose activity (like Portfolio is) may be a better fit than overloading the Journal. |
| 16:15 |
gonzalo_ |
silbe, yes, this was proposed too |
| 16:15 |
walterbender |
silbe: I don't disagree. and my original proposal was not very fully developed |
| 16:16 |
|
silbe: but I do think the Journal is the right place to display these data (as well as Portfolio). Really for two different purposes |
| 16:16 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, my point, is if we agree in the format and the information we need save, the activities can be modified |
| 16:17 |
silbe |
walterbender: as I said, it depends on the exact purpose. And that's where I'm still lacking information. Happily waiting for results from your little pilot program. |
| 16:17 |
garycmartin |
silbe: +1, would love to see an Awards/Achievement activity that mined the Journal for default metadata and some agreed on metadata. Activity can then present the data in a friendly/fun manner. |
| 16:18 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: if we can agree on a design for how these extra images and text are displayed, we can also agree on a mechanism for triggering them in s'ware |
| 16:19 |
|
silbe: I am not sure that we will know in advance all the uses, but we already have described two use cases just in the past 5 minutes |
| 16:19 |
garycmartin |
silbe: if successful it could then perhaps land in the Sugar UI/Journal as a core, exposed, feature for all. |
| 16:19 |
manuq |
has to run now :/ |
| 16:19 |
gonzalo_ |
is happy to do noise about this :) |
| 16:19 |
|
walterbender, ok, we can wait for your pilot |
| 16:20 |
|
and your new proposal |
| 16:20 |
|
i have a last topic |
| 16:20 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: a full canvas scrolling trophy room of cups, certificates, and badges. Colourful, animated, with a section for greyed out cups, certificates, and badges about to be unlocked (hints as to what to try next). |
| 16:21 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: OK... the key here is "a full canvas scrolling..." |
| 16:21 |
gonzalo_ |
garycmartin, yes, but is no so easy from the education point of view... |
| 16:21 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: I wasn't being so ambitious... I just wanted a scrolling window |
| 16:21 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: and an option to share the activity so friends, teachers could see as well. |
| 16:22 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: cannot we already share Journal entries? |
| 16:22 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, but this is not just a journal entry |
| 16:22 |
walterbender |
one of the reasons I want this to be journal based is to leverage the existing features and use cases |
| 16:23 |
|
gonzalo_: I don't see why it is not "just a journal entry" |
| 16:23 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: sure you could send the journal object to someone (would be the last snapshot of the journal activity mined award data) |
| 16:23 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, because ++ |
| 16:23 |
|
ok |
| 16:23 |
|
is a entry about other entries then |
| 16:24 |
|
ok |
| 16:24 |
walterbender |
I had not thought of it that way... I thought it was additional metadata about the current entry only |
| 16:24 |
silbe |
walterbender: looking forward to more elaborate explanations of what you'd like to achieve. I could imagine that the "trophy" stuff would be encompassing enough to warrant special status, i.e. explicit handling in the details view rather than piggy-backing on a generic mechanism for letting activities show metadata of their choosing. And as to "a series of rubrics", I have to admit I don't understand what you're saying there. |
| 16:24 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: only in an activity like portfolio would cross entry interactions happen |
| 16:25 |
|
gonzalo_: in my thinking at least |
| 16:25 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: Sharing the Awards/Achievements activity would show up in the neighbourhood, like letting people in to see your trophy room. |
| 16:25 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, ok |
| 16:25 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: I agree that like portfolio, we could have an achievements activity |
| 16:26 |
|
garycmartin: but why wouldn't we use the journal metadata to store each activty's award status? |
| 16:26 |
|
and why not display it in the journal entry itself? |
| 16:27 |
|
silbe: I think we could go pretty far with short texts and icons displayed on demand in the detail view |
| 16:27 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, the last time we agreed in saving in the metadata, and do a portfolio like activity to explore the posibilities |
| 16:27 |
|
and later move to the journal detail view |
| 16:27 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: yes... but in retrospect, I think the journal view is more important |
| 16:28 |
|
gonzalo_: because that is the place the kids are used to looking |
| 16:28 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, but is more difficult agree in this changes |
| 16:28 |
walterbender |
the portfolio is a weekly event |
| 16:29 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, anyway, would be good know you changed your mind :) |
| 16:29 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: yes... but even in the portfolio, it is not going to be meaningful if we don't agree on a protocol |
| 16:29 |
|
gonzalo_: it was not until Holmes last week that I did change my mind |
| 16:29 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, yes, that is the reason i am asking you.... |
| 16:29 |
|
walterbender, ok |
| 16:30 |
walterbender |
I don't really think the protocol needs to be very complex... some simple XML-like markup |
| 16:30 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, i agree, may be json is better |
| 16:30 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: sure... that is what I use at the moment |
| 16:31 |
|
a json-encoded python dictionary |
| 16:31 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, great |
| 16:31 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: yep, portfolio is the excellent current example. However apart from some simple awards we could currently generate ("You shared a write document with 10 others!", "You've painted 25 pictures", etc), we need activities to flag useful metadata that is custom to their use. So maybe it's a sophisticated block not yet used in TA, so that the Awards activity can show a greyed out "Used accelerometer block" cup with a text hint to try an enga |
| 16:31 |
|
a learner to go look for it and give it a go. You the author would need to flag these interesting "achieved", and "to achieve" cases. |
| 16:31 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: that is exactly what I mocked up in TA |
| 16:32 |
|
garycmartin: but I didn't do anything fancy on the display side yet |
| 16:32 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, garycmartin you need look at kids playing in facebook games :) |
| 16:33 |
walterbender |
silbe: the rubrics are the heuristics to trigger ^^ that each activity needs to sort out |
| 16:33 |
|
gonzalo_: which brings up the another journal-related feature: making the journal look more like the facebook or google+ wall |
| 16:34 |
|
the problem there is probably gong to be performance |
| 16:34 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, this will be very easy to do generating a html page |
| 16:34 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: Displaying the award data in the Journal detail view means each Journal entry would need to be viewed for a kid to try and find what awards they had and did not have. The stand alone activity would give a view of how you were doing on all activity/sugar fronts. |
| 16:35 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: yes... we need both |
| 16:36 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: very happy to see an agreed on metadata format for text and/or svg badges, just didn't want us to stall on a redesign of the details view (I hoped we would have just exposed the full detail view rather than the 'add notes' feature recently landed). |
| 16:37 |
gonzalo_ |
garycmartin, +1 |
| 16:39 |
|
another data i want standarize is the state on the activities, by example the size and color of the pen used in Paint or the font used in Write |
| 16:39 |
|
is supposed when you open a draw, you continue working as the last time you closed it |
| 16:40 |
|
but right now is not implemented in most activities |
| 16:40 |
|
maybe we can agree in saving in the metadata "state" a json with the info needed |
| 16:41 |
|
this is no so important than the achievemts metadata, because will be used only by the activity |
| 16:41 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo_: Yep, that would be great, should store as much state as we can. I think this stalled previously and then was lost in the churn due to the metadata bugs in early Sugar (it lost all metadata after a reboot). |
| 16:41 |
gonzalo_ |
but is good have this as goal for the maintainers |
| 16:41 |
|
garycmartin, ahh, good to know |
| 16:42 |
silbe |
gonzalo_: I don't think we need to come up with a common data format for that. It doesn't need to be interoperable between activities. (It doesn't hurt either, of course). |
| 16:42 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: I thought you were going somewhere else: the color you chose in Paint would be the default color in Write.... |
| 16:42 |
gonzalo_ |
garycmartin, would be good set it as a objective as we did with the toolbars |
| 16:42 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: don't most activities already maintain state? |
| 16:42 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, no |
| 16:43 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo_: using metadata variables would be the easy was, no special writing needed, you just set metadata variables, and remember to pick them up at resume. |
| 16:43 |
gonzalo_ |
silbe, i agree, is not for interoperability |
| 16:43 |
walterbender |
maybe time for another marathon |
| 16:43 |
garycmartin |
s/was/way |
| 16:43 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, :) |
| 16:43 |
|
we can do a wiki page as with the toolbars |
| 16:44 |
|
i think worked pretty well |
| 16:44 |
garycmartin |
+1 |
| 16:45 |
gonzalo_ |
#action garycmartin and gonzalo will review and prepare a wiki page checking state saving in activities |
| 16:46 |
|
:) |
| 16:46 |
garycmartin |
:b |
| 16:46 |
gonzalo_ |
i have the action tag easy :) |
| 16:46 |
|
finally.... the last topic i want talk is about the help proposal |
| 16:47 |
|
i don't think we will found a ideal solution for all our problems |
| 16:47 |
|
but, may be we can check what activities need a help |
| 16:48 |
|
and what features need be more visible in the ui |
| 16:48 |
|
like by example, changing levels in Maze activity |
| 16:48 |
|
i don't think will be easy to agree on this |
| 16:49 |
|
but if we do not start never will be done |
| 16:49 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo_: Does maze resume to the current level yet? |
| 16:49 |
gonzalo_ |
garycmartin, no |
| 16:49 |
|
this for the previous topic :) |
| 16:49 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo_: ;) |
| 16:49 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: my problem with the help proposal as it stands it lacks context |
| 16:50 |
|
gonzalo_: not that I have any better ideas |
| 16:50 |
|
gonzalo_: It may be more simple to launch a Mallard doc in Browse |
| 16:50 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, yes, my proposal is useful only for simple activities, not for turtleart |
| 16:51 |
|
walterbender, but changing to browse would be very disruptive for the user, you don't like model dialogs! :) |
| 16:52 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: I was thinking it would happen from either the Homeview menu or the Frame menu |
| 16:52 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, i think using the same HelpButton, we can add a way to the activity to provide context |
| 16:53 |
|
walterbender, maybe i can try to play a little and do a prototype for turtleart |
| 16:53 |
JT4sugar |
gonzalo_, I think your proposal is good for basic understanding of Icons and features. A link then to a mallard doc to dig deeper would then seem appropriate. BTW this is what I was trying to get at with my Discovery mode idea-info in palettes when hovered over to give basic info |
| 16:53 |
gonzalo_ |
you already have a lot of info |
| 16:54 |
|
JT4sugar, yes, i agree |
| 16:54 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: all the strings you need for TA are already there... there is a help string for every block and every button |
| 16:54 |
gonzalo_ |
may be we need agree a "more info" button |
| 16:55 |
|
s/agree/add/ |
| 16:55 |
|
walterbender, yes, i know |
| 16:55 |
walterbender |
gonzalo_: I think we need two things: some simple inline help like you have proposed and a more comprehensive document-style help available in Browse. |
| 16:56 |
|
the latter could be accessed from the homeview menu |
| 16:56 |
|
maybe we need to add an entry in activity.info for the help doc? |
| 16:57 |
gonzalo_ |
walterbender, and call browse or the help activity with a parameter? |
| 16:57 |
|
or should be caontained in the activity? |
| 16:58 |
|
contained |
| 16:59 |
JT4sugar |
Ganzalo-I think if we approach as layers of understanding coming up with solution that is leveled-Basics(palettes) then to push the learner and challenge through the deeper discovery documents-This could then be tied to achievement/award ideas dicussed earlier possibly? |
| 17:01 |
garycmartin |
Could the current source view be extended to view html content now we're moving to webkit? |
| 17:01 |
gonzalo_ |
JT4sugar, i think every idea is already complex to discuss/implement on his own. trying to implement/discuss togheter only can exponentialy do this worst :( |
| 17:02 |
JT4sugar |
gonzalo_, Understand |
| 17:02 |
gonzalo_ |
garycmartin, the view sorce window in sugar? can be done |
| 17:03 |
|
garycmartin, i don't know if webkit is a desirable dependency in sugar |
| 17:03 |
|
garycmartin, but areyou thinking in a similar window for the help? |
| 17:03 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo_: are not Browse and Read critical for Sugar? |
| 17:04 |
gonzalo_ |
garycmartin, i get your point |
| 17:06 |
|
ok, will try to do a improved proposal in sugar-devel (the next night i can't sleep) :) |
| 17:06 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo_: yes, I was just thinking an inline, view source, like help for detailed documents (your proposal is separate to this detailed content). Then though perhaps view source should be able to handle the displaying of html anyway (and a 'Documentation' button could take you directly there). |
| 17:06 |
|
s/though/thought |
| 17:07 |
gonzalo_ |
garycmartin, manuq proposed put the help button in the toolbar where we have the title entry, but open the activity with the toolbar visible, when is a new instance |
| 17:08 |
|
this have sense, because if not the user do not see the title entry |
| 17:08 |
garycmartin |
FWIW in IOS, there is no formal way of displaying help, every developer makes their own call, some with overlays, or none, or web views, just depends on how complicated they are. |
| 17:08 |
gonzalo_ |
garycmartin, we can do it better :) |
| 17:08 |
walterbender |
needs to run out soon |
| 17:09 |
gonzalo_ |
too |
| 17:09 |
garycmartin |
me as well... |
| 17:09 |
gonzalo_ |
ok, the meeting is already long |
| 17:09 |
|
anybody else need touch a topic? |
| 17:10 |
|
should i satrt the countdown? |
| 17:10 |
|
5 |
| 17:10 |
silbe |
4 |
| 17:10 |
garycmartin |
3 |
| 17:10 |
gonzalo_ |
2 |
| 17:10 |
|
1 |
| 17:11 |
|
#endmeeting |
| 17:11 |
meeting |
Meeting ended Tue Mar 20 17:11:02 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4) |
| 17:11 |
|
Minutes: http://meeting.ole.org/sugar-m[…]-20T15:03:51.html |
| 17:11 |
|
Log: http://meeting.ole.org/sugar-m[…]12-03-20T15:03:51 |