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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2012-02-28 22:30:53

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22:30 meeting Meeting started Tue Feb 28 22:30:53 2012 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
22:30 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
22:31 walterbender welcome all
22:31 we have Robert Fadel here today to lead a discussion about Sugar finances
22:31 cjl welcome robert__
22:31 walterbender and Bradley to discuss the SL/SFc relationship
22:31 and JT4sugar to discuss the website
22:31 plus I will update re GSOC
22:32 keynote2k <keynote2k!~tony@conservancy/staff/keynote2k> has joined #sugar-meeting
22:32 walterbender shall we start with the finances?
22:32 #topic finances
22:32 welcome Robert
22:32 robert__ thanks, walter.
22:32 walterbender it is great to have a pro on board
22:32 do you want to give a quick summary of where we are at?
22:33 robert__ i'm glad to be part of it. i guess i like following you to new adventures
22:33 dogi lurks
22:33 welcome robert__
22:33 robert__ first thanks to cjb, bernie and bradley for helping me get up to speed on the finances and accessing the reports
22:33 walterbender robert__: always can guarantee an adventure :)
22:33 cjl Just saw Oct and Nov monthly reports from SFC via mail.
22:34 walterbender for those who don't know, Robert worked with me at the Media Lab and then OLPC
22:34 robert__ i was given access to the SL finances through several reports over the past 2 weeks.
22:35 kaametza <kaametza!~webchat@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
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22:35 robert__ SFC uses a command-line accounting software called ledger....i am not command-line friendly
22:35 cjb (I'm here, distracted a bit for a few mins)
22:36 cjl Maybe someone can whip up a parser to turn it into csv
22:36 robert__ so entered all the transactions and created identical accounts in GNUcash. the interface is easier for me to use. the board should know there is a mirror set of records
22:37 i have updated the wiki finance page with current summary information and a monthly record of income and expenses for 2011
22:37 walterbender notes that the wiki is back online... thanks dogi
22:37 bkuhn robert__: did you use the GnuCash output in the older versions of ledger?
22:37 cjl http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Finance
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22:38 bkuhn Conservancy used to use GnuCash -- it's unfortunately very bad at tracking multiple virtual funds (which Conservancy has many of), that's why we had to switch.
22:38 cjl #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Finance
22:38 robert__ SFC (bradley) has kept diligent records and accounting notes so this process and the ledger account reconciliation was easy to do.
22:38 it gave me a chance to catch-up on the transactions since 2008.
22:40 the only project that i have reported on separately is Gould. i circulated a report on it this afternoon.
22:41 the reporting going forward will be easy to maintain. the question is information is useful for the community - both in terms of the granularity and format.
22:42 eg. is it sufficient to know the amount of given by individual donors or is the source (check, google, etc) and discreet amounts (but not names) important
22:43 walterbender I don't think the details are important
22:43 cjl I believe we should publicly acknowledge donors (unless they elect otherwise).
22:43 robert__ so we can stick with the format currently on the wiki
22:44 walterbender cjl: maybe privately ack with an offer to publicly ack if they OK?
22:44 bkuhn cjl: Publicly ack'ing donors is pretty complicated, because you need a way to opt out, and need to make sure it's actively maintained.
22:44 walterbender: privately acking already happens as part of what Conservancy does upon receiving a donation.
22:45 cjl Ther is actually an interesting strategy employed by Trisquel which acknowledges the last 5 donors, Apparently one guy donates again everytime his name falls off the list.
22:45 walterbender cjl :)
22:46 JT4sugar Important if donation is directed to fund particular project/feature/travel/conferences etc.  I imagine you can mention what is directed to without supplying individual names
22:46 cjl Never underestimate the fundraising power of vanity.
22:46 Ariel_Calzada has quit IRC
22:47 bkuhn cjl: I've worked at various non-profits, some of which publicly acked, some of which didn't...
22:47 ... I never saw an impact from it.
22:47 The only thing I know that tends to work is having a button that people can display their own website.
22:47 icarito we have a transparency policy
22:48 walterbender robert__: a couple of questions: (1) anything we should be doing that we are not? and (2) any thoughts on the process for approval of spending... seemingly a controversial topic
22:48 icarito so in line with that I would support publicly acking if possible
22:48 bkuhn ... Which also handles maintenance as well.
22:48 cjb robert__: thanks, report looks great!
22:48 dogi robert__, I had similar problems as you and I am happy there is now a gnucash file ... maybe I understand this better ...:P
22:49 bkuhn Note that some thing  we do can't really be handled properly by Gnucash.  It's why we switched.
22:49 cjb (happy to see we have an amount of money that lets us do interesting things, too!)
22:49 bkuhn So the Gnucash file might not be perfectly correct.
22:49 dogi cjb, which report?
22:49 robert__ walter: (1) not that i can see yet. it would be useful for me to understand who and how expenses get allocated against specific projects.
22:50 icarito cjb: do you mean the Finance page?
22:50 robert__ walter: i need to catch-up on the controversy to consider a new, better process.
22:51 bkuhn:: the GNUcash ledger reconciles to the ledger ledger on an account to account basis. where do you think there might be an inaccuracy?
22:51 walterbender robert__: I'll see if I can dig up some pointers to old email complaints about our process
22:51 bkuhn robert__: There are technical no specific (sub)projects within Sugar.  At one point, someone asked me to keep track of funds that were spent in pursuit of what the Gould donors had asked for, which is why some things are categorized Gould.
22:51 ajay` <ajay`!~ajay@2002:d076:eb35::1> has joined #sugar-meeting
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22:52 bkuhn robert__: I'm not sure.... the important thing is to not treat Gnucash as canonical.  It's entirely possible that for a single project of Conservancy (i.e., Sugar Labs) Gnucash might work.
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22:52 cjl robert__: I notice that recently we've been incurring banking fees, are these new?
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22:52 robert__ bkuhn: agreed
22:52 cjl or are tehy from unexpected causes (e..g bounced deposits).
22:53 neyder <neyder!~neyder@2002:d076:eb35::1> has joined #sugar-meeting
22:53 icarito where can I find the gnucash files?
22:53 bernie` <bernie`!~bernie@2002:d076:eb35::1> has joined #sugar-meeting
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22:53 bkuhn cjl: What do you mean by "recently incurring"?  There was a canceled payment to Woolf and fees for wiring money
22:53 cjl http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]e_of_transactions
22:54 cancellations and wore fees are fine, just wanted to know the bank wasn't bleeding us wit hnew fees.
22:54 robert__ cjl: there have been banking fees since inception, as bkuhn explains and transactional fees for paypal
22:54 JT4sugar Is Wiki still down I am unable to connect on any of my devices-all four
22:54 bkuhn cjl: I wouldn't have let that happen!
22:54 walterbender we should perhaps leave these details to a side discussion?
22:55 bkuhn Obviously, Conservancy is paying attention to that sort of stuff.
22:55 cjl np
22:55 icarito robert__: yes the wiki Finance page is much improved now, thanks for your hard work!
22:55 cjl Thank you robert__ it is very helpful
22:55 walterbender I guess that now that we have a decent presence of our finances on the wiki, we should discuss more strategic things?
22:55 cjl +1
22:56 walterbender I would like to set our sites on some targeted fund raising
22:56 bkuhn walterbender: I have a whole list of giving programs from my research a few months ago that Sugar Labs fits.
22:56 O
22:56 walterbender maybe we can discuss this at our next meeting?
22:56 bkuhn Conservancy would be happy to help on writing grant proposals.
22:57 walterbender bkuhn: maybe we can grab some time between meetings to do a pass through...
22:58 bkuhn Sure!
22:58 walterbender robert: and I will grab bernie to review the spending procedures with you before the next meeting
22:58 JT4sugar walterbender, are you thinking creating projects and seeking funding for them or trying to fit Sugar Projects into Grant proposals? Or Both?
22:58 walterbender JT4sugar: more the former than the latter, I hope
22:58 cjb Anything on the agenda for this meeting?  Should we talk about Bradley's updated legal doc?
22:59 walterbender yes...
22:59 robert: anything else for today?
22:59 robert__ also you might consider ongoing development with past individual donors. they have contributed $16k in the past
22:59 bernie` walterbender: hello, we're back in business
22:59 walterbender: the FSF sysadmins did a fantastic job today moving sunjammer to the new colo
22:59 cjl speak fo the devil :-)
23:00 dogi congrats bernie` ... and #fsfsys
23:00 bkuhn robert__: Definitely.  Conservancy has tended to avoid this, mainly because we're not collecting opt-out for future contacting.  At some point, it might be good to build a plan for that and perhaps a one-time email to let people opt out.  Then the database could be used for fundraising.
23:01 robert__ bkuhn: thats the right way to start
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23:01 JT4sugar walterbender, It would seem for these purposes a separate account template be created to spur funding towards these and quickly activate these projects and keep funds for each separated
23:02 walterbender JT4sugar: we can allocate budgets for projects, like we did for servers
23:02 JT4sugar: presumably we can do the same for the website...
23:03 shall we move on to Bradley's topic?
23:03 JT4sugar walterbender, That would be advantageous
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23:03 walterbender #topic updating the SL/SFC agreement
23:04 kaametza <kaametza!~webchat@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
23:04 dogi hi pitere
23:04 walterbender bkuhn: do you want to summarize again for those who don't recall the details?
23:04 bkuhn walterbender: Sure:
23:05 Walter and I met in Prague in November.  At the time, I pointed out to him that while Sugar Labs agreed to pay the "staff cost of Sugar Labs" in the original FSA, this has never actually been charged -- in part because that would probably ultimately charge Sugar Labs far too much than any of us would like...
23:05 ... Typically, Conservancy has (since Sugar Labs joined) standardized on asking for a percentage back.
23:06 Recently, Conservancy's Board of Directors set the default for new projects at 10%.
23:06 I've generally been slowly talking to existing projects about going to the standard.
23:06 As it stands, Conservancy isn't actually self-funding: even if all our 33 projects were at 10%, it wouldn't pay for the existing (already overworked) staff time.
23:06 But, we decided that 10% is the max we want to set in any event.
23:07 There are also tons of minor improvements that we've made to the FSA template (unrelated to this issue) that would be good to take advantage of.
23:07 My email in November had some diffs if people want to look at those.
23:07 That's about it.
23:07 If folks have questions, I'm happy to take them.  And thanks for making the time at the meeting to discuss this!
23:08 walterbender I don't know if there is really anything to discuss at this point... we've gotten a free ride for 3+ years :P
23:08 cjl The 10% amounts to far less than SL would have to pay as a standalone 501(c)3
23:09 walterbender bkuhn: other than a vote, what other action do we need to take? sign the new agreement?
23:09 cjl Which is of course the point of banding together with other projects under the SFC banner.
23:09 bkuhn walterbender: yeah, although, technically speaking, the vote probably needs to be unanimous, at least the way the existing draft is structured because the Current Oversight Board (as defined in the agreement) is everyone and they all must sign.
23:10 cjl I will sign when you spell my name correctly :-)
23:10 bkuhn Anyway, if there's dissent, I'd like to understand why and perhaps work together to get to a unanimous decision anyway.
23:10 cjl: Oh, geez, I'm *so* sorry.
23:10 looks for the problem.
23:11 I'm really sorry, cjl.
23:11 cjl Leonard, not Lenard (two places), top and signature line.
23:11 bkuhn My "list of the current Oversight Board" has your name right....
23:11 ... I'm not sure how it got pasted wrong.
23:11 cjl np
23:11 walterbender Maybe a straw poll and then we can circulate the document for signatures.
23:11 cjl I jsut don't sign documents that have my name wrong
23:12 bkuhn cjl: nor should you.  Actually, I couldn't have "pasted wrong"; I must have retyped it as wrong or accepted an overzealous spell-checker's chagne.
23:12 Anyway, it's fixed in SVN... I can send around a new draft after the meeting.
23:12 robert__ bkuhn: is the 10% incurred on expenses or revenue?
23:12 bkuhn robert__: gross revenue.
23:14 robert__ bkuhn: is there a max or consideration for straight-pass through revenue like it seemed to be for cycling?
23:15 walterbender robert__: good point
23:15 bkuhn robert__: generally not.  We've found that the more money we're handling, the more work it is for us, so it "works out" in the end.  The only other option is keep track of staff time and bill it back, which historically would have cost more.
23:15 cjb or the Gould grant, even?
23:15 bkuhn Also, note that big grants draw the attention of the auditors: I expect to have hours of conversations with the auditors this year about the Cycling project, for example.
23:16 ajay <ajay!~ajay@> has joined #sugar-meeting
23:16 cjl So in other words, Sugar Labs should not be acting as a passthrough
23:16 cjb bkuhn: but, uh, we don't have 10% of the cycling money
23:16 bkuhn cjb: oh, you mean *historically*?  No, there is no plan to take the 10% back into the past.
23:16 cjb I see
23:17 bkuhn Other than: Additionally, the Project agrees that, on the Effective Date, \$1,887.44 (10\% of the existing Project Fund on the Effective Date), will be donated to Conservancy's general fund.
23:17 (sorry for \'
23:17 s, it's LaTeX)
23:17 the 10% would start coming out of gross revenue as of the effective date.
23:17 walterbender so we should spend all of our money now
23:17 cjl bkuhn: Don't write checks with LaTeX, they'll bounce.
23:18 bkuhn If you think an "As of the Effective Date, " at the beginning of the "Fees" section would help clarify that.
23:18 cjl: lol
23:18 cjb walterbender: :)
23:18 robert__ bkuhn: to be clear, gross revenue received after the effective...sorry i have not read the doc
23:18 bkuhn walterbender: well, if you  want to make a smaller initial donation, that's ok; we can make it lower if you'd like.
23:18 kaametza walterbender: we have a project :)
23:18 cjb I guess this theoretically limits our grant-raising to be for 10*current finances :)
23:18 bkuhn robert__: right, as it is written: 10% gross revenue as the effective date, pls $1,887.44, which is 10% of the cash balance in the fund as of the day I wrote up the draft
23:19 JT4sugar robert__, Would we then set up a sort of escrow account to glean 10% as it comes in to avoid confusion later?
23:19 bkuhn As mentioned, if $1,887.44 seems to steep, I think we're open minded on that.
23:19 cjb (assuming the grant funds are restricted against being used to pay Conservancy)
23:19 bkuhn: it sounds fine to me
23:19 bkuhn JT4sugar: the 10% is taken out at income accrual time.
23:20 cjb: when you write grant proposals, you'll probably need to note some is going to overhead.
23:20 cjb bkuhn: I see
23:20 bkuhn If there's a specific grant you're going for that makes that difficult (some grant-making agencies freak out about paying overhead), we can talk about what to do on it.
23:20 walterbender cjb does bring up a point... some grants have restrictions on overhead... bumped up against this often at MIT (albeit, the overhead was 68%, not 10%)
23:21 cjl cjb depends on the granting agency, NIH grants can have over 60% overhead (indirect costs)
23:21 JT4sugar walterbender, As we seek funds for project saying 10% is going to SFC and their mission I think would strengthen our case
23:21 walterbender so we prob. need a wiggle-room clause that lets us negotiate if necessary
23:21 JT4sugar: in general, I agree
23:22 cjl JT4sugar: We should be upfront about it, I agree it is a plus for fundraising, not a minus.
23:22 bkuhn walterbender: if you have text you wanna propose, lemme know.  I would generally think it would just be a negotiation at the time of the grant.  But I'd be fine for something like "Conservancy agrees to negotiate in good faith with the Project if grant-making agencies take issue with these Fees"
23:23 cjl Since the SFC will be involved in any paperwork with the grantor, this makes sense to me.
23:24 walterbender yes... the SFC will be in on the discussion in any case.
23:24 cjl There should be no surprises.
23:25 kaametza bkuhn: will the SFC be open to international projects management as well? any additional fee?
23:26 bkuhn kaametza: that's a discussion related to the international Local Labs question.  As previously mentioned, we'd likely want to see an NGO we can work with in the municipality where the grant is taking place.  keynote2k is still working on the Local Labs plans.
23:27 But, as it stands, the 10% would cover that... the problem is one that taking donations in from a US source and spending them outside the US has IRS issues that we're still investigating.  Lots of NPOs in the USA do it, so it can clearly be done, but we're still learning the right way to do it.
23:28 pitere has quit IRC
23:29 walterbender we should move on to the next topic... we are already at the 58 minute mark
23:29 to wrap up, we can circulate the new agreement to SLOBs and solicit signatures.
23:29 bkuhn: do you have a preferred way of doing that?
23:30 kaametza bkuhn: hopefully we can find the way, donations and grants are much aprriacted/needed
23:30 bkuhn walterbender: keynote2k tells me getting paper is better. :)  But usually what I do is send it around, ask for people to send a scanned version and then collect paper over time.
23:30 I can send instructions (I have a little instruction file )
23:31 walterbender OK...
23:31 shall we move on to the website?
23:31 cjl Sure
23:31 walterbender #topic website
23:32 bkuhn Thank you for all your time on that last topic!
23:32 walterbender JT4sugar: the floor is yours
23:32 JT4sugar Thanks-As noted in the email I sent out our efforts in content collection keep falling far short for moving forward
23:33 After multiple conversation it is our belief a Sugar Labs investment into a paid internship to bring this to fruition is needed
23:33 walterbender do you have a candidate in mind?
23:33 budget?
23:34 JT4sugar The question for SLOBs is this seen as a critical need and are we willling put funds towards
23:34 cjl depends on the amount of funds
23:35 walterbender JT4sugar: critical yes... how we deal with it is open to discussion
23:35 JT4sugar My thought would be somewhere between 2500-4000 over 3 month period 12weeks 20hrs per week $12hr depends on how paid and tax liability-thought would be to 1099 intern
23:35 icarito JT4sugar: how would an intern solve the problem?
23:36 walterbender JT4sugar: are those numbers based on past experience?
23:36 JT4sugar We need someone to be able to contact our deploymenst secure the content, create copy to go along, and then feed to Christian
23:37 walterbender, I would say yes on past experience seeing the time and cold call effort by RIT Co-op guys this would seem to be what it might take
23:37 walterbender I agree... waiting for the community to do this has not worked... seems like we need a hired gun
23:38 cjb although the hired gun could come from the community :)
23:38 icarito cjb: +1
23:38 JT4sugar Christian and I both wish we had the time-OLPC has either hired pro guns or pro guns did the work pro bono either way it was a pro gun I believe. Correct me if I'm wrong.
23:38 walterbender cjb: all the better
23:39 cjl Having failed to step up and provide anything on L10n when requested I acknowledge the difficulty of getting this done by just saying "Hey kids, let's put on a show".
23:40 walterbender JT4sugar: what do your numbers total to?
23:40 kaametza maybe this is a task for the local labs..
23:40 walterbender kaametza: it is a task (has been for a while). if a local lab wants to take it on...
23:41 JT4sugar Walter- 3 months 12 weeks times 20 hrs per week =$2880.00 then its a question of taxes or do we pay intern as subcontractor and 1099.
23:42 walterbender OK... that gives me a general idea. Seems like we can afford it.
23:42 JT4sugar: can you write up contract with deliverables? who will supervise the work?
23:42 bkuhn JT4sugar: subcontractor or 1099?  I'm confused by that distinction.  Who would they subcontract through?
23:42 kaametza JT4sugar: how much content do you need?
23:44 walterbender I presume we would contract a service from someone as oppose to hire anyone
23:44 JT4sugar Bkuhn- If coming out of SFC accounts I don't know if you pay them like employee and pay taxes or can you just cut them checks and leave tax liability to them as if they were subcontracted by SFC(Sugar Labs)
23:44 bkuhn JT4sugar: the "sub" part is what is confusing me, I think.
23:44 They'd be a contractor to Conservancy if paid 1099, which is what we've always done.
23:45 We haven't done W-2 employment relationships with anyone for this sort of thing (yet).
23:45 It generally never made sense because they were acting truly like a contractor (working remotely, self-directed, etc.)
23:45 walterbender JT4sugar: if you can write up something we can put out to bid, presumably we'll get some offers from the community
23:45 JT4sugar Maybe its my Detroit lingo that has me on subcontractor-contractor would be same
23:45 bkuhn Ah, ok. :)
23:46 subcontractor to me was meaning "some 3rd party (the contractor) between Conservancy and the person (subcontractor) doing the work "
23:46 icarito walterbender: +1 on a bid
23:46 bkuhn a competitive bid is a great thing to do! :)
23:46 OTOH, be careful with undercutting bids that seem "too low" :)
23:46 ajay has quit IRC
23:46 cjb sounds good!
23:46 icarito that can be a good strategy to put the funds to work
23:47 JT4sugar walterbender, I will get back with Christian to try and better identify the skill set we should have in in the write up for the bid process
23:47 walterbender let's plan to review the bid by email as soon as JT4sugar writes something up?
23:48 cjl sounds like a plan
23:48 walterbender JT4sugar: thanks for keeping on top of this
23:48 JT4sugar bkuhn, Would we plan to pay this by 1099-student would probably expect a weekly or bi-weekly check
23:49 cjb JT4sugar: why does it have to be a student?
23:49 let's not be presumptious about who will apply?
23:49 walterbender we should wrap up soon.
23:50 JT4sugar cjb, Doesn't necessarily I was thinking in terms of internship for marketing purposes but anyone that has skill set and can get this done is Great by me
23:50 cjb cool, ok.
23:50 walterbender #topic GSOC
23:50 I submitted an application today
23:50 dirakx is the backup admin
23:51 bkuhn JT4sugar: I can set it up as needed; a bi-weekly check is doable, although creates extra overhead for Conservancy.  Typically we pay contractors monthly, but I can be flexible on that if it'll make a difference to the student.
23:51 walterbender we have some project suggestions in the wiki, but could use some more
23:51 and more mentors to start listing
23:51 please help me solicit them
23:51 bkuhn Do you know who org-admin will be yet for SoC?
23:52 walterbender bkuhn: it is me
23:52 bkuhn ok
23:52 walterbender it has been a few years since I was the admin... the application is just the one page?
23:54 bkuhn: I mention the SFC relationship in the org. description
23:54 bkuhn thanks.
23:54 Someone was telling me today they ask for a W-9 up front now; if that's the case or you need anything else from me for app, let me know.
23:54 Usually, the Conservancy relationship isn't pertinent to Google until the end.
23:55 walterbender bkuhn: will do...
23:55 I have to say, the GSOC website is not very easy to navigate.
23:55 bkuhn Yeah, I know. :-/
23:56 walterbender well... anything else for today?
23:56 shall we try to meet in two weeks?
23:56 cjb sounds good
23:56 icarito yes sounds good
23:56 cjl ok
23:57 walterbender count down...
23:57 5
23:57 JT4sugar Thanks all!
23:58 walterbender 4
23:58 3
23:58 2
23:58 1
23:58 CU soon.
23:58 bkuhn Thanks all for your time on the Conservancy stuff.  I really appreciate it!  Later!
23:58 walterbender #end-meeting
23:58 meeting Meeting ended Tue Feb 28 23:58:37 2012 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
23:58 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-28T22:30:53.html
23:58 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]12-02-28T22:30:53

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