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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2011-12-20 21:03:04

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21:03 meeting Meeting started Tue Dec 20 21:03:04 2011 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
21:03 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
21:03 walterbender welcome all...
21:03 I am hoping that Gerald will able to join us as well.
21:04 yama has quit IRC
21:04 walterbender Tony and Bradley are here as well, I see
21:04 keynote2k1 hey, all
21:04 cjl I pinged cjb over in #olpc-devel
21:04 walterbender we've a number of different topics today...
21:04 bkuhn Yes, I'm here.
21:05 walterbender before we jump back into the local lab discussion, I'd like to bring up the issue of our various open positions
21:06 #topic SLOB offices
21:06 GeraldA <GeraldA!~quassel@ool-addcd0cb.static.optonline.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
21:06 walterbender We have an ombudsman, Bertf, whom I think is willing to continue in that role again.
21:07 I have a lead on a new finance director, someone I will be meeting with tomorrow.
21:07 cjl walterbender: That would be the Treasurer position?
21:07 walterbender cjl: yes
21:08 or whatever we want to call it.
21:08 bkuhn Yeah, please don't call it Treasurer.
21:08 cjl k
21:08 bkuhn (since Conservancy has a Treasurer, it just gets confusing when Conservancy's projects duplicate titles)
21:08 walterbender someone to keep on top of the SL $s and try to both keep the community informed of what is going on and to interface with the SFC
21:08 bkuhn but just about anything else is fine.  I'm not nuts about "Director", mainly because it's overloaded.
21:08 walterbender we've had a few false starts in that area in the past.
21:09 bkuhn (Conservancy has Directors to)
21:09 Meanwhile, I think that's a great position to have, notwithstanding my complaints about the titles you've suggested. ;)
21:09 walterbender the person I have in mind is a real pro.
21:09 icarito laura is also interested in this post
21:09 yama <yama!~yama@124-169-12-180.dyn.iinet.net.au> has joined #sugar-meeting
21:09 yama has quit IRC
21:09 yama <yama!~yama@ubuntu/member/yama> has joined #sugar-meeting
21:09 bkuhn Ideally from Conservancy's perspective, it'd be someone who is a SLOB.
21:09 icarito so is laura
21:09 what are the responsibilities?
21:10 walterbender bkuhn: really. I'd think the opposite
21:10 bkuhn Oh, ok.
21:10 I suggested it because the FSA sets forward a role called "Representative", which is the person who communicates SLOB decisions officially to Conservancy.  If it's a spending issue, for example, it'd be easier if it's the same person.  I need at least an ack email from the Representative for anything.
21:10 .. related to spending and the like.
21:10 but having it be a different role is ok, just know that I'll still need a Representative ack on everything.
21:11 walterbender icarito: in my mind, someone to do a monthly report to the community and to interface with the SFC on the mundane transactions that seem to get stuck due to process errors on our part
21:11 missing documentation, etc.
21:11 cjl Maintains this wiki page  http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Finance
21:11 walterbender if we have someone on top of it on our end, I think we can make things move more quickly
21:12 icarito she tied 4th place in last election with yama
21:12 yama is sridhar from OLPC Australia
21:12 btw hi yama
21:12 walterbender, does this person you have in mind already contribute to sugar?
21:13 walterbender icarito: the person I have in mind has been contributing to one laptop per child for almost six years, but is not a Sugar person per se
21:14 but many many years of hard-core finance
21:15 icarito walterbender, laura has 11 years managing budgets and 2 years working for sugar mission
21:15 walterbender is pleased that suddenly we seem to have a wealth of candidates
21:15 icarito also we believe an OLPC person could be a conflict of interest
21:15 walterbender, cool
21:16 its times of good hope for the project
21:16 Daniel-Francis has left #sugar-meeting
21:16 icarito walterbender, laura offered before to help conform the finance team
21:16 walterbender icarito: I am not sure where the conflict of interest comes in, but this person does not work for OLPC, if that is your concern
21:16 icarito its not only about mundane transactinos but a strategic vision of sustainibility of the community
21:16 also its only 2 candidates, could be simply solved by a vote
21:17 walterbender icarito: I think you are mixing apples and oranges here
21:17 icarito walterbender, we don't think so
21:17 walterbender we need both but not necessarily embodied in one person
21:17 icarito finance is more than accountability
21:18 walterbender, no we ideally need a team to handle these issues
21:18 walterbender and the specific position we are discussing at the moment is how to keep the books... something we've not done well to date
21:18 icarito that aligns with SLOBs vision and the communities needs
21:18 cjl So AFAIK, The SLOBs vote to decide on "Finance Team Coordinator" or whatever we call it.  It sounds like we have two possible candidates, should we ask for a brief bio sketch / vision statement for each mailed to SLOBs list and deal with the vote by e-mail?
21:18 walterbender cjl: OK with me...
21:19 but ideally we can capitalize on all of the talent
21:19 as icarito points out, we have multiple needs
21:19 icarito cjl, that's fine with us please include IAEP
21:19 cjl Yes.
21:20 bkuhn cjl: BTW, I like that title!
21:20 :)
21:20 icarito #link  here's laura's bio http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Laura_Vargas
21:20 walterbender OK. I'll report back on my conversation tomorrow
21:21 and send an email to the community with some sort of proposal or vote
21:21 cjl Sounds good.
21:21 icarito btw walterbender we don't know the name of this person but you've been saying this for several meetings now
21:22 taking an important time for SLOBs
21:22 cjl icarito: I assume this is out fo respect for the individual in question.  Not uncommon in recruitment situations.
21:23 I can't tell you the name of the compabny I am interviewing wit hlater thsi week :-(
21:23 walterbender icarito: if the candidate is interested, I will make the name public...
21:23 igod <igod!~omen@honeydew.cictr.com> has joined #sugar-meeting
21:23 walterbender anything else on this topic?
21:23 icarito cjl, if that does not take slobs time, is fine
21:24 cjl no more for me on this topic, other than asking Bert F to continue as Ombudsman, which I think would be good.
21:24 icarito one more thing
21:24 cjl Any other thoughts on bertf as Ombudsman?
21:24 walterbender cjl: I will ask him
21:24 icarito we should rename Executive Director to something more appropiate
21:24 like project representative
21:25 walterbender bkuhn: what do other projects use for titles?
21:26 bkuhn walterbender: Most other projects aren't that concerned about them, honestly.
21:26 They do worry a lot about what the governing body is called (SLOBs in this case)
21:26 after that, they don't seem that concerned.
21:26 cjl SFC Representative is a defined role in the FSA.
21:26 bkuhn Yes, that's correct.
21:27 GeraldA__ <GeraldA__!~quassel@ool-addcd0cb.static.optonline.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
21:27 GeraldA has quit IRC
21:27 walterbender cjl:  well, that is really a different role, although it is probably the same person.
21:28 cjl On the other hand, I certainly would not tell Walter he could not choose whatever title he liked to put on his business cards.
21:28 walterbender it is more a matter of who runs the SLOB meetings...
21:28 other than that, there isn't really anything special about what we currently call the ED
21:28 no secret powers :P
21:28 cjl Chairman is als oa traditional title for that function
21:29 I've often had the ability to decide my own title, it doesn't change what you do, , ,
21:29 walterbender cjl: exactly
21:30 notes that we almost had Gerald here :)
21:30 Anything else on this topic???
21:31 cjl A title is most useful when dealing with people outside of the project.  Inside the project you are your irc nick and your commits :-)
21:31 GeraldA__ has quit IRC
21:31 GeraldA <GeraldA!~quassel@ool-addcd0cb.static.optonline.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
21:31 cjl welcome back GeraldA
21:32 GeraldA Thanks. Some networking issues.
21:32 icarito yes me too
21:32 i just read the backlog
21:32 GeraldA <icarito> Thanks. Will do.
21:32 icarito i would only add this position should be elected
21:32 GeraldA, welcome, here's the link http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]eeting/2011-12-20
21:33 GeraldA <icarito> Thanks.
21:33 bkuhn cjl: I have no strong opinions on what titles projects pick, as long as you don't use any already in use (or substantially similar to those in use) by Conservancy.
21:33 icarito bkuhn, can you confirm the executive director name is taken by you already?
21:33 walterbender shall we move to local labs???
21:33 bkuhn I agree that it's nice to have snazzy titles to use on business cards when advocating the project.
21:34 cjb bkuhn: would you like usto stop using Executive Director immediately, then?
21:34 bkuhn cjb: I didn't realize it was in use, honestly.  I thought I'd discussed this a long time ago with Walter, back when we had the confusions about "Treasurer".
21:36 cjb bkuhn: yeah, we use it in things like press releases
21:36 icarito http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]xecutive_Director
21:36 and in walterbender's linked'in profile
21:37 :-)
21:37 bkuhn Well, it's surely likely to cause some confusion, I'd expect.  I thought we'd sorted this all out (I recall pointing out not to use titles already in use) back with the "Treasurer" issue.
21:37 I do think it's confusing.  But I'll coordinate offline with walterbender about what he wants to do about it. It's going to impact him, primarily.
21:37 cjb ok!  we can move on, then.
21:39 walterbender hurrah
21:39 I
21:39 I'll discuss it off line with Bradley and report back
21:39 raffael has quit IRC
21:39 cjl good
21:39 walterbender #topic local labs
21:40 between last meeting and today, we got a request for a local lab in Poland
21:40 GeraldA Apologies for my ignorance, but what does that entail?
21:41 cjl ChristophD'd people?  I've been seeing a lot of lang-pl activity.
21:41 walterbender but it seems until we sort out the process in general
21:41 cjl Jakub, Dominik and those guys?
21:41 walterbender cjl: yes.
21:42 cjl We do need a clearer path to 'local lab"ship and what it actually means.
21:43 walterbender: my point is local labs related and I would like to touch on it before we lose bradley.  It might be the one substantive thing we could do for local labs, if it can be done.
21:43 http://lists.sugarlabs.org/pri[…]ember/002270.html
21:43 or I can wait
21:43 walterbender well, that is what I hope Tony and Bradley are working out for us
21:44 bkuhn keynote2k1 and I are definitely working toward getting a structure in place.  Tony sent out some inquiries with the Local Labs coordinators to get a better sense of what they need.
21:44 It takes time and consideration to sort out if they need something formal -- we have to figure out a way to do it.
21:45 The USA ones will be much easier in this regard, since Conservancy already operates in the USA.
21:45 As I said last meeting, if they *don't* need something from Conservancy's infrastructure, they can proceed, and they just have to obey the "Sugar Labs" trademark license and go about their merry way.
21:46 cjl Links for directed-donations (that would pass through SLOBs oversight and SFC accounts)  was the idea I had wanted to explore.
21:46 bkuhn cjl: Yeah, I think that might be possible, but there's a lot of details to be worked out.  And, it will be much easier in the USA than outside the USA.
21:47 I would add that in the meantime, merely funding a discrete activity with Sugar Labs funds is always doable.  The SLOBs just have to write up the details and a budget, and we can even fundraise for such through Conservancy.
21:47 The only reason we'd need to do something differently is if a Local Lab wants to somehow do its own fundraising as well.
21:48 cjl bkuhn: It would be helpful, while not addressing SomosAzucar interest in contracting for "commercial activity", it would be a big help if they could recieve directed donations.
21:48 bkuhn ... Or in any other way wants its own autonomy.
21:48 cjl: I don't really understand why, though.
21:49 cjl So the donor knows tah it is going to supporet that specific effort and it's needs.
21:49 icarito bkuhn: that sounds good "The SLOBs just have to write up the details and a budget"
21:50 cjl bkuhn: My thought was that SFC already had directed-donation sub-accounting in place, this would be a minor extension of that while still gettin gSLOB oversight.
21:50 bkuhn cjl: well, donors can already make a directed donation to Sugar Labs, so I'm still not getting what you are saying.  It seems like you are saying there are subprojects who would like to be Conservancy members in their own right.  Well, they'd have to apply in the usual way (we currently have a backlog of many projects)
21:51 walterbender bkuhn: I think it is more like the Gardner School/Sugar on a Stick project
21:51 cjl I guess we really need to define what it means to be a "local lab" first.
21:51 icarito bkuhn, in what case would a Sugar Labs activity / project need its own status as Conservancy member?
21:51 walterbender that $ was given with the intention that it be used by SL in a particular context
21:52 bkuhn walterbender: yeah, but that was an activity where each discrete expense was considered by the SLOBs, and documented for Conservancy that it was within mission.  Sugar Labs can always do that.
21:52 walterbender bkuhn: so as long as we are willing to maintain the paper trail in our end, we should be able to do something similar?
21:53 bkuhn And, honestly, there were problems with how that grant application was handled: Conservancy wasn't told about the grant application until after it was granted.  It was a serious problem that we later sorted out, but it burned a lot of time.
21:53 walterbender: Yeah, it's always the case that Conservancy can do operations that fit within its mission.  If we can document the activity, and Conservancy knows about it in advance, and is coordinated with SLOBs on the fundraising for it, that can always be done.
21:53 cjl ok, That is mor eor less what I am asking about.  The minor technicakl distinction is the creation fo a unique PayPal link (say on the SomosAzucar wiki) that makes it automatically a "directed donation".
21:54 or we need som eway of adding annotation on our Donate page.
21:54 bkuhn Not everything folks might want to do is within our mission though.  (roughly: "Promote, defend and advocate Open Source and Free Software")  And we also have to make sure it's within the IRS rules.
21:54 cjl Thus the requirement for SLOBs oversight and approval.
21:54 bkuhn cjl: I think you're jumping three steps ahead here.
21:54 icarito bkuhn, even if the activity is international?
21:55 walterbender bkuhn: agreed... which is why I'd like some sort of description of the activities associated with the funds
21:55 cjl bkuhn: sorry
21:55 bkuhn walterbender: yeah, these sorts of projects need to be well defined.
21:55 That was a huge problem we had with the Gould thing.
21:55 walterbender huge seems a bit overstated...
21:56 it was a well defined project
21:56 bkuhn walterbender: not from Conservancy's perspective. :)  There were cases where I got past due notices from Harvard because no one told me SLOBs had decided to fund students to advance the grant.
21:56 s/advance the grant/advance activities outlined in the grant/
21:56 cjl Thus the need for the Finance Team Coordinator
21:56 walterbender that was not due to the project not being well defined
21:56 bkuhn walterbender: Good point.
21:56 walterbender it was due to sloppy execution on our end
21:56 bkuhn This all goes together in mind though:
21:57 icarito bkuhn, walterbender we would appreciate some guidance with due process for this
21:57 walterbender cjl: ^^ exactly
21:57 bkuhn Write up a plan, a budget, etc. for the activity.  Clearly state what is to be done.  Include Conservancy in drafting.
21:57 ... with all that together, it avoids problems on multiple levels.
21:58 But, to be clear, I'm talking about activities in the USA here, which are very easy for Conservancy to carry out.  International is another issue, it changes the boxes we have to check on our annual filings, and may have constraints on it that we haven't even learned about.
21:58 I admit we're not fully informed about these things yet, and we're working as quick as we can to learn about them (it's a major task that keynote2k1 has been working on in recent weeks).
21:58 icarito local lab in peru is willing to help document the process with this case as an example
21:59 bkuhn But note that most USA non-profits that operate internationally have 3-6 times the staff of Conservancy, and much bigger budgets.
22:00 icarito bkuhn, we should help SFC have budget for this to compensate for your effort
22:00 bkuhn icarito: donations are always welcome!  http://sfconservancy.org/donate/
22:01 cjl If a project were defined to achieve goals of improved indigenous language support in Sugar and innovative methods
22:01 of Sugar usage assessment and information transfer along with defined costs (small equipment, travel expenses, etc) , providing documention of actual expenses, we could find a way for amounts from directed donations to be approved by the SLOBs and paid?
22:01 icarito we're only newbies in this but we know society should help sugar as the option for free software in primary school
22:02 bkuhn cjl: In theory, that should work fine.  The real issue is in the details.  You've got to put the details together clearly and we have to make a plan to do them.
22:02 cjl bkuhn: fair enough, but in theory is good for now.
22:02 bkuhn Right now, everything that people are circling around Local Labs is vague, and it's been very difficult to figure out what it is that the SLOBs actually want to do.
22:03 s/circling/saying/
22:04 The main task I've asked keynote2k1 to do is figure out what it is that these local labs want to do, figure out if Conservancy can be involved (e.g., is it really a for-profit business that they should go and create, or?)
22:04 ... etc.
22:04 cjl bkuhn: There are very defined activities in mind in the local labs (Peru, probably Poland), I think it may jsut need to be drafted wit ha budget and a clear connection to SFC mission.
22:05 bkuhn: The commercial activity of being a paid contrator is an abvious issue and probably one tha SFC can have nothing to do with.
22:05 bkuhn cjl: I see you saying that, but we've asked for some clarity on that and haven't gotten it.  That was a major item of discussion at last meeting, and we didn't get anywhere.
22:06 icarito SLOBs should articulate to help Local Labs in community building as a strategic decision
22:06 walterbender icarito: I don't understand what you are saying
22:07 cjl We'll see what we can do about that.  For me, knowing that directed donations is a possible path for some flow of funds is an important element in investing time in documenting the budgetary details.
22:07 icarito walterbender, SLOBs asked Local Labs to submit Strategic Objectives and how SL can help
22:08 bkuhn cjl: to be clear, the directed donation is to Sugar Labs.
22:08 Once that happens, it's under SLOBs purview.
22:08 If SLOBs want to make a budget and put something out there, they can.
22:09 silbe has quit IRC
22:09 bkuhn But the donations in the end are to Sugar Labs, and the SLOBs decide how the funds are spent, pursuant to Conservancy approval and oversight as outlined in the FSA.
22:09 cjl ok
22:09 bkuhn To show you something we did with a project similar to this, take a look at: http://pypy.org/py3donate.html
22:09 walterbender icarito: in the process of creating local labs, we asked for a mission (is that a strategic objective) and we are always here to try to help...
22:09 icarito ok
22:10 bkuhn As you'll note in there, they have a plan to let the donations just be used for PyPy after a period of time.
22:10 icarito this should be documented - it sounds like SLOBs really needs a finance team to help out to help articulate these resources where they are being needed
22:10 bkuhn But as you can see, the project is defined in great detail, and has a plan for execution, etc.
22:10 cjl bkuhn: That link may be very helpful, I will study it.
22:11 icarito #link http://pypy.org/py3donate.html
22:12 cjl bkuhn: Thank you for helping us more clearly understand how to work with / through the SFC.
22:13 icarito bkuhn, yes thank you :-D
22:13 friends, we have arrived to escuelab for our General Assembly
22:13 cjl It must be challenging to deal with a lot of free-wheeling passionate FOSS types :-)
22:14 icarito I must leave for the moment but I invite you join us http://somosazucar.org/2011/12[…]-martes-20122011/
22:14 walterbender OK. we should wrap up...
22:14 thanks everyone
22:14 to  be continued
22:15 first Tuesday in January???
22:15 GeraldA sure thing
22:15 walterbender anything else for today?
22:15 5
22:15 4
22:15 3
22:15 2
22:15 1
22:15 icarito merry christmas
22:15 cjl feliz navidad
22:15 walterbender #end-meeting
22:15 meeting Meeting ended Tue Dec 20 22:15:54 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
22:15 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-20T21:03:04.html
22:15 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-12-20T21:03:04

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