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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2011-11-08 15:02:29

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15:02 meeting Meeting started Tue Nov  8 15:02:29 2011 UTC. The chair is erikos. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:02 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
15:02 erikos so, let's first have a look at the action items from last week
15:03 silbe waves
15:03 erikos (we should assign people next time to them)
15:03 benzea <benzea!benjamin@he.sipsolutions.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:03 erikos silbe: hey, great you can make it too
15:03 and benzea!
15:03 is amazed
15:03 benzea erikos: nah, just happened to be upstairs, haven't even started any measurements ...
15:03 but I may be able to listen in a bit
15:04 erikos gonzalo_: did you find the time to look at how many activities use the gdk.drawable?
15:04 (item was: - check which activities uses a drawable which has to be replaced by cairo calls)
15:04 benzea: nice
15:04 garycmartin erikos, I think that was me for gdk.drawable
15:05 erikos garycmartin: aha, and...? ;p
15:05 gonzalo_ erikos, i have looked at other libraries used http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Acti[…]ies/PortingToGtk3
15:06 garycmartin erikos: I haven't found a great solution yet, and there seems to be plenty of side cases that need scanning for (GdkDrawable,  GdkPixmap,  GdkImage are all gone, but some others are still supported like GdkPixbuf)
15:06 erikos gonzalo_: nice, work - this is great!
15:06 gonzalo_ garycmartin, yes, i found the same problem
15:07 garycmartin erikos: I have a library of 90 recent bundle activities, I see about 20 of them that a likely fails.
15:07 erikos garycmartin: gonzalo_: ok, let's maybe start with one activity and document the side cases
15:07 garycmartin erikos: That includes things like Paint :( and all of the TamTam suite.
15:07 walterbender erikos: I am working on that for TA an Abacus
15:08 erikos walterbender: yes, which brings us to the next topic
15:08 walterbender erikos: I plan to write up my experiences (everything benzea taught me)
15:08 garycmartin erikos: Obviously TA and Abacus, TypingTurtle, VisualMatch, FractionBounce, Moon, Measure...
15:09 gonzalo_ erikos, i am thinking if is a good idea port all the activities now....
15:09 walterbender gonzalo_: +1
15:09 erikos walterbender: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]ures/GTK3/Porting can you add that in a section at this page?
15:09 garycmartin Portfiolo, sliderule.
15:09 walterbender erikos: yes... I plan to do that...
15:09 erikos: I just merged all my cairo patches to TA
15:09 erikos walterbender: wonderful, can be rough to start with, we can clean up later
15:10 cjl reads backscroll
15:10 walterbender erikos: assign the #action to me
15:10 erikos walterbender: ok
15:10 gonzalo_: what exact issue do you see
15:10 walterbender gonzalo_: I suggest we get everything working with Cairo and then as a second step, go to gtk3
15:10 erikos gonzalo_: and do you have some suggestion, how to handle it
15:10 marcopg walterbender: the icon stuff in sugar-toolkit is caching a cairo surface I think. I forget the details of get_target etc.
15:11 gonzalo_ erikos, i am worried about the developers overhead of maintain two version gtk2 and 3 for a long time
15:11 walterbender marcopg: OK. I'll look there... I am confident we don't rerender it from svg each time :)
15:11 gonzalo_ or having most of our users without having changes in activities for a long time too ....
15:11 marcopg yup :)
15:12 walterbender It would be good if someone who knows more than I looked at cscott's dual mode glue
15:12 erikos gonzalo_: maintain, would mean, that you plan to keep on doing big changes in the gtk-2 version, do you?
15:12 gonzalo_ erikos, big or small, usefull for end users
15:12 dsd_ i had a look at scott's glue. it is workable but will be a little painful going forward, and is a long way from becoming a drop-in solution
15:12 it will not help with anything like the GdkDrawable stuff
15:13 erikos gonzalo_: I thought, we 'agreed', that this is not something we recommend
15:13 walterbender dsd_: the drawable stuff can be done independently of the gtk3 migration
15:13 erikos gonzalo_: personally, I would only do new gtk2 versions if I find a 'does not start anymore' error
15:13 walterbender #link http://git.sugarlabs.org/~csco[…]util/gtkcompat.py
15:13 erikos otherwise, indeed it gets a burden
15:14 gonzalo_ erikos, then, this will mean, most of the users will not see changes for one or two years
15:14 walterbender erikos: but the migration to Cairo has to happen anyway and getting it working in gtk2 is an easy way to make sure it works properly
15:15 erikos gonzalo_: sure, but if you keep on backporting all the stuff, why would a user switch? ;p
15:15 walterbender: i think that is independent
15:15 garycmartin gonzalo_: I think we can move to ciaro as a first step, that one seems like an easy call to make (and will keep us occupied for a while).
15:15 gonzalo_ erikos, sorry if this is a already taken decision, but i think we need discuss it
15:15 garycmartin, yes, i agree
15:15 and remove hippo
15:16 i think walterbender think the same
15:16 walterbender yes.
15:16 so the issue is do we try to do something along the lines of cscott or d we fork?
15:16 erikos I think it is good to move first to cairo and remove hippo as well
15:16 silbe +1 on doing all the backwards-compatible changes first.
15:16 erikos we did similar for the toolkit
15:16 benzea yeah, the icon code caches cairo surfaces
15:16 garycmartin erikos: My plan is then that I may well do some gtk3 tinkering/experimentation. But until there is an official release that has gtk3 & gtk2 support I'll likely not considering making any gtk3 only releases.
15:16 erikos and will do for the shell
15:17 garycmartin: that is fine
15:17 garycmartin: my point is that, once you forked, I would not recommend having maintaining two versions
15:18 gonzalo_ erikos, then we should port the activities we _need_ to port, Read and Browse related activities
15:18 erikos gonzalo_: right, that we do already, no?
15:18 gonzalo_ erikos, yes
15:18 garycmartin erikos: "once you forked, I would not recommend having maintaining two versions" +1!
15:18 dsd_ i agree that maintaining 2 versions of each activity should be a documented option, but not a recommendation
15:18 erikos gonzalo_: the 'core' people I think should focus now on them
15:19 dsd_ also i think scott's solution is fine to offer as an option
15:19 with appropriate "this compat layer might not work especially if you dont dive in to extend it" disclaimers
15:19 gonzalo_ dsd_, do you think scott's solution should be in sugar-toolkit or any common place?
15:20 erikos dsd_: hmm, not sure, we should promote that
15:20 dsd_ gonzalo_: i think that would be a bit strong of a recommendation - but having a central git repo for it might make sense
15:20 walterbender I think we need to exercise it a bit more
15:21 gonzalo_ yeah, i only don't want 10 differnt versions copied in the activities
15:21 erikos hoped we finally got rid of glue code
15:21 walterbender gonzalo_: I think the only ones hacking on gtk3 conversion right now are in this meeting
15:21 rgs gonzalo_: true, but if you drop it someway common too fast it becomes API and you have to maintain it
15:21 erikos rgs: right, and I do not want to
15:22 gonzalo_ rgs, yes
15:22 dsd_ gonzalo_: i think thats the most sensible option - anything else would add to 'central' sugar maintenance tasks
15:22 it is also something temporary
15:22 erikos but why do we really need it in the first place?
15:22 rgs run everywhere activities?
15:22 erikos are we so scared of jumping over?
15:23 walterbender erikos: In some respects, we need it less for existing activities than for new ones
15:23 silbe it's not even useful to put it into Glucose - you need it on old systems as well, as that's the only reason to continue supporting GTK2.
15:23 dsd_ the nice thing about scott's glue code is that it provides a simple way for activities to run with PyGI/GTK3 code on the GTK2 platform, for activities that only use a small subset of GTK API (like TurtleArt)
15:23 walterbender I am happy to basically freeze my current activities, but if I write something new, I want the current gtk-2 users to have access to it.
15:23 dsd_ and it seems there *is* interest from some people in having activities work on both old and new platforms for a while
15:23 gonzalo_ erikos, the problem is not jump, the problem is not real user will have it for almost one year
15:24 cjl wonders about all the channels that Activities go to (distro pkgs, XOs, SOAS, etc.)
15:24 erikos gonzalo_: but which features do you put in activities now?
15:25 gonzalo_ erikos, you can't imagine :)
15:25 erikos, i hope we continue fixing bugs and adding features :)
15:25 erikos no, really - any big feature you are working on for the next cycle?
15:25 gonzalo_ erikos, nothing big this cycle
15:26 erikos activity wise, that people can not work a bit for
15:26 right...
15:26 I just don't want to spend too much time on solutions for issues that maybe are not real
15:27 gonzalo_ erikos, i was talking about the opportunity of porting all the activitiees now
15:27 silbe erikos: the main problem is that you can't count on most deployments to upgrade to new releases right away. Upgrades are done in school-yearly cycles, which means we'll have a transition period of about two or three years (depending on exactly when you start counting and interactions between different schedules).
15:28 erikos silbe: but this is always given, not just now
15:28 and I am sure the 'features' that went into 0.94/11.3.0 are seen in a seployment in 1 or 2 years too
15:28 gonzalo_ erikos, but this change is backwards incompatible
15:30 garycmartin erikos: Back to the earlier ciaro question, here's the list of likely candidates I have Abacus, Browse, CardSort, Erikos, FlipSticks, FoodForce2, FoodForceII, FractionBounce, JigsawPuzzle, Labyrinth, Map, Measure, Moon, Paint, Paths, PlayGo, Portfolio, Record, Scribble, Sliderule, TamTamEdit, TamTamJam, TamTamMini, TamTamSynthLab, TurtleArt, TurtleArtMini, TypingTurtle, ViewSlides, VisualMatch. TamTam seems to have the most code hits.
15:30 gonzalo_ a lot of work :)
15:30 walterbender garycmartin, gonzalo_: not so much work...
15:31 erikos come on' we have still time for features ;p
15:31 gonzalo_ erikos, great!
15:31 walterbender erikos: I have a number of Journal features to propose for this cycle
15:31 gonzalo_ walterbender, +10
15:31 garycmartin erikos: FWIW I skipped the majority of the GCompris activities, so there may be a heap of things needed changed there.
15:31 walterbender none of them will be impacted by the gtk2/3 issues
15:32 well, not significantly
15:32 erikos ok, can we finish the gtk2/3 discussion first? as we have people interested in that specific area here
15:32 walterbender garycmartin: gcompris could be a headache
15:32 garycmartin walterbender: yea, the few I did download to check did have hits.
15:32 walterbender thought erikos was changing the topic to features ^^
15:33 cjl alsroot is repackaging gcopmpris, has been in touch with Bruno
15:33 erikos ok, so from my point of view the outcome of the activity discussion is:
15:33 cjl Not sure where the porting work needs to be done, preferrrably upstream
15:33 erikos - first port the ones we must (browse, Read)
15:33 - adopt other activities to cairo
15:33 - remove hippo
15:34 - then if time, port to gtk3
15:34 gonzalo_ ok
15:34 erikos is that right?
15:34 walterbender it is still open whether or not the port to gtk3 tries to keep gtk2 compatibility
15:34 erikos that way activities stay backwards compatible as long as possible
15:34 garycmartin erikos: "- then if time, port to gtk3" --> "- then when time, port to gtk3" ;-)
15:34 silbe garycmartin: +1
15:34 gonzalo_ garycmartin, +1
15:35 may be next cycle
15:35 erikos great
15:35 next item:
15:36 - - check if ASLO supports well having different activity versions, dotted versions and major versions
15:36 did someone check that?
15:36 walterbender doesn't know
15:36 gonzalo_ no
15:36 garycmartin is not sure either
15:36 manuq either :(
15:36 erikos ok, so item for next week, any takers?
15:37 manuq who maintain ASLO? may we email them?
15:37 walterbender alsroot: ^^
15:37 silbe manuq: alsroot does, but AFAIK he's rather busy these days
15:38 manuq ok, I can test ASLO with a mock activity, I think
15:38 erikos manuq: ok, great
15:38 next one:
15:38 * status of the GTK3 port
15:39 benzea oh, not done yet :-)
15:39 erikos manuq: gonzalo_: how is the situation in Read and Browse?
15:39 rgs benzea: :)
15:39 erikos benzea: aha, not sleepong ;p
15:40 gonzalo_: from your mail, does look quite well for Read, yes?
15:40 manuq erikos: Browse:
15:40 bernie rgs: i think the cia bot could do that
15:40 gonzalo_ erikos, yes, Read is working
15:40 cjl dsd_: What were the two very similar wiki.sl.o pages on GTK3 that need to be merged?
15:40 gonzalo_ erikos, but i am using a patched evince
15:41 erikos gonzalo_: and the patch is upstreamed already?
15:41 gonzalo_ erikos, is in review
15:41 manuq about Browse:
15:41 - restore page navigation functionality in buttons (go back, go forward, stop, reload, go home)
15:41 - restore tabs functionality, (add, remove, show page title in tabs)
15:41 - restore session store functionality, make stop activity work
15:41 - restore keys shortcuts functionality
15:41 - currently restoring starred pages/favourites functionality
15:41 erikos gonzalo_: great! so all looks good that it will be in the next version!
15:42 garycmartin http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]ures/GTK3/Porting
15:42 erikos manuq: which is about taking screenshots (which we need in the toolkit as well)
15:42 gonzalo_ erikos, yes
15:42 garycmartin http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]3/ActivityPorting
15:42 erikos gonzalo_: great job!
15:42 garycmartin thinks it was anyway
15:42 manuq erikos: the latter
15:42 erikos garycmartin: I did port it already, just have to kill one
15:42 manuq: yes
15:42 manuq: and we have a path forward for that using cairo
15:43 manuq erikos: yes
15:43 erikos manuq: did you hit already any issues in the webkit api already?
15:43 manuq erikos: just need to see the differencies of my code and the one from the guys at #gtk+
15:43 erikos yes
15:44 manuq erikos: not for the moment
15:44 erikos: in fact, I'm taking notes for possible features that webkit allows
15:44 erikos manuq: ok, (if not done so yet) maybe worth checking if all the API you need is there
15:44 manuq: great!
15:45 ok, so looks like browse is in good hands, too
15:45 toolkit:
15:46 - I have been looking at the widgets and wrote tests for them (not done yet)
15:46 dirakx1 has quit IRC
15:46 erikos - and have now been looking at palettes, to understand the changes from marcopg and benzea
15:47 manuq erikos: good
15:47 marcopg erikos you have no chances to understand them, we don't either :P
15:47 erikos hehe ;p
15:48 marcopg benzea plan to get it first working without leave events sounded good to me
15:48 erikos marcopg: yes
15:48 marcopg: the code in git curently has the issue that the invoker does not know about the parent
15:48 marcopg if you have questions about the stuff we did you can ping me
15:49 erikos that is what I am trying to find out now
15:49 marcopg: great
15:49 yeah, lets just keep on that way, best
15:49 another big area is the theme
15:50 manuq: did read a bit about it
15:50 manuq erikos: just got in touch, yes
15:50 marcopg we should have people that are not working on palettes pile on that one :)
15:50 erikos and I will too so that we can start working on it (maybe with a bit of sideguide from benzea)
15:50 manuq erikos, benzea, good
15:51 erikos marcopg: yeah, manuq is getting up to speed on it
15:51 if anyone else has spare cycles, he is more than welcome
15:52 garycmartin would need to go read up on it, it's ccs3 based now right?
15:52 erikos I think that is it pretty much on that end
15:52 manuq garycmartin: yes, it? css based
15:52 benzea yeah, if there are questions about the theme, just ping me
15:53 manuq benzea: ok, thanks!
15:53 erikos garycmartin: http://developer.gnome.org/gtk[…]g-GtkStyleContext
15:53 walterbender if there are any nasty css questions, I have a friend who is an expert
15:53 benzea it is css like, but there are some things that are a bit different, I think
15:53 marcopg having the design team write the theme would be perfect :)
15:53 erikos :)
15:53 manuq erikos: benzea, I wonder if we have to touch the theme engine
15:53 gonzalo_ erikos, what is the state of hippo removal on sugar?
15:53 benzea manuq: I think we will in some cases (eg. checkbox)
15:53 manuq: but not for much, and not for now
15:54 for now we do not need a theme engine at all
15:54 garycmartin silly question, are you guys all testing this stuff using Fedora with a jhbuild environment?
15:54 manuq benzea: ok, good
15:54 benzea is on debian unstable
15:54 gonzalo_ garycmartin, yes
15:54 erikos gonzalo_: we have removed the stuff in the toolkit
15:54 garycmartin: yes, Fedora 16
15:54 (which is golden by now btw)
15:54 gonzalo_ erikos, and in sugar module?
15:54 marcopg golden, wow
15:55 I just installed f15 sigh
15:55 erikos gonzalo_: no, because those are quite interlinked
15:55 marcopg: hmm :)
15:56 manuq is on F16 also
15:56 erikos any other quick question for the gtk2/gtk3 area?
15:57 ok
15:57 so 0.96 cycle quickly
15:57 http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.96/Roadmap
15:57 manuq not from me, just a reminder that we should add our discoveries in the wiki
15:57 (that's a reminder for myself)
15:58 erikos manuq: yes, good point, please do
15:58 we have a planned development release tomorrow
15:58 we have a few floating patches for the shell
15:58 we could probably land already
15:58 has to get around this
15:59 dsd_: what is the status of the NM patch?
15:59 dsd_: do you have time to work on it for tomorrow? or unlikely
15:59 silbe erikos: yeah, reviewing the sugar-install-bundle patches would be appreciated
16:00 erikos dsd_: no rush, just wondering
16:00 silbe: ahh, yeah
16:00 cjl Query: Is there any Honey acticvty that has grown in importance sufficiently to merit nomination for Fructose in the next cycle?
16:00 erikos silbe: are you around today?
16:00 silbe: tomorrow and thursday you aren't right?
16:00 silbe erikos: exactly
16:01 garycmartin cjl: I guess that's an Activity Team question.
16:01 silbe I'm available on Mon+Tue, unavailable on Wed+Thu and sporadically online / working on Sugar on Fri-Sun.
16:01 cjl garycmartin: fair enough
16:02 erikos silbe: what are your plans around gtk2/gtk3 btw?
16:03 silbe erikos: none so far (except for reviewing as time permits); I'm already booked out with other stuff like WebDAV support for the Journal (hi-prio item for OLPC-AU).
16:03 cjl garycmartin: It just came to mind in looking at the listings on the Roadmap wiki link.
16:04 gonzalo_ erikos, then are you the only one working on sugar?
16:05 erikos gonzalo_: can you put that on the sugarlabs wiki and link from the gtk3/Development page? http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Acti[…]ies/PortingToGtk3
16:05 garycmartin cjl: Putting the AT hat on for a moment, Fructose inclusion rules are currently more about the maintainer willingness and ability to reliable stick to the release cycle; but what seems to happen is that OLPC end up shipping something and AT just end up supporting it as best they can as the original maintainers often seem to fade away.
16:05 erikos gonzalo_: pretty much, yes
16:06 silbe: ok, yeah, would be good to sort out the review of the accumulating toolkit-branch
16:06 cjl garycmartin: perhaps an item for the AT agenda at some point, but you're right.  not here (as the hour winds down).
16:07 erikos gonzalo_: happy about help of course ;p
16:07 silbe erikos: remember to start posting patches as soon as you think they're ready, so we have plenty of time for review
16:07 garycmartin cjl: it's on the AT agenda – and gonzalo_ and I are both here as well ;)
16:08 gonzalo_ garycmartin, yes :)
16:08 erikos silbe: I wonder, if I should send patches for each commit now
16:08 silbe: will be a lot, and not mine all
16:08 garycmartin erikos: do we have a list somewhere of proposed new Sugar features?
16:09 silbe erikos: depends on how polished they are
16:09 erikos silbe: 90% is polished as two devs were already looking at them
16:09 grabs
16:09 cjl garycmartin: I trust gonzalo_ to keep in mind any need for Pootle project shuffling. :-) if it comes to it.
16:09 silbe erikos: I don't care about how posts the patches, as long as someone addresses review concerns (either by discussing them on-list or posting an updated patch).
16:11 erikos: sounds good. What exactly do these patches do? I.e. in what state is sugar / sugar-toolkit afterwards?
16:11 marcopg how are we handling conflicts with the gtk3 branches? is master frozen until those land or?
16:11 erikos marcopg: yes, I thin ksugar-toolkit master should be frozen until
16:12 marcopg: and the shell can have changes
16:12 marcopg erikos no one ported the shell yet?
16:12 erikos marcopg: no, we did not yet
16:12 toolkits first!
16:12 marcopg ok, make sense to me then
16:12 erikos yes
16:13 silbe: ok, maybe we continue on #sugar after the meeting
16:13 has to close it now
16:13 silbe marcopg: AIUI we'd review and merge the patches on an individual basis, potentially reworked. Conflicts get resolved as usual.
16:13 marcopg silbe that's going to be a mess imo
16:14 erikos ok, I have to leave now for 20 mins
16:14 marcopg anyway, I'll let you and erikos sort that out, you don't seem to quite agree :)
16:14 silbe we should probably discuss it on-list then
16:14 erikos thanks everyone for attending!
16:14 #endmeeting
16:14 meeting Meeting ended Tue Nov  8 16:14:39 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
16:14 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-08T15:02:29.html
16:14 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-11-08T15:02:29

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