Time |
Nick |
Message |
15:16 |
meeting |
Meeting started Mon Oct 10 15:16:32 2011 UTC. The chair is garycmartin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. |
15:16 |
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Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting |
15:17 |
garycmartin |
Well I guess
Welcome to the first Activity Team meeting for some time! :) |
15:17 |
manuq |
welcome! |
15:17 |
gonzalo |
great! |
15:17 |
garycmartin |
The last official meeting was back in the summer of 2009! |
15:17 |
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15:17 |
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15:17 |
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15:18 |
garycmartin |
(we have had others, but random/informal) |
15:19 |
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So looking at the agenda page we have... |
15:19 |
gonzalo |
garycmartin: yes, and we have a agenda! http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/A[…]m/Meetings#Agenda |
15:19 |
garycmartin |
- Identifying Activities in ASLO that require i18n and L10n setup. |
15:19 |
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- Diff between ASLO and Pootle Honey / Fructose hosted activities. |
15:19 |
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- Call for Activity maintainers to draft text on notable updates for 11.3.0 release notes |
15:20 |
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- Review our Report (and plans) http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ember/014077.html |
15:20 |
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- Who is in the team? We need do plans according to who can work in it. |
15:21 |
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I didn't add any items myself as I wanted to see suggestions other had. |
15:21 |
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but if there is one that's on my mind just now it's |
15:22 |
cjl |
I'm not really in the team, but I was the one who put those suggestions there :-) |
15:22 |
garycmartin |
- Clarify 'core' activities (fructose/honey/olpc builds/dextrose/etc) make sure we keep an eye on them |
15:22 |
cjl |
The second point came from somthing dsd said on IRC |
15:23 |
gonzalo |
cjl, before we go to the second point |
15:23 |
garycmartin |
Any other items folks think we should raise today? |
15:24 |
cjl |
not trying to move it along, jsut pointing out source |
15:24 |
gonzalo |
ok |
15:24 |
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i think is ok for a first meeting |
15:25 |
garycmartin |
OK then, lets dive right in (I'm sure w'll have some others once we get going): |
15:25 |
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#topic Identifying Activities in ASLO that require i18n and L10n setup. |
15:26 |
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cjl: could you give us a quick run down of this one? |
15:26 |
cjl |
I placed that there, so I will say my intent is that the Activity team actively engage in promoting i18n and L10n. |
15:26 |
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Through a variety of manes |
15:26 |
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means |
15:27 |
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One idea would be to identify really popular ASLo activities that are not currently set up for L10n |
15:27 |
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Diff between ASLO and Pootle Honey / Fructose hosted activities |
15:28 |
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I think a spreadsheet would do it and then some poking (over an extended period of time) to add more and more L10n ot activities. |
15:28 |
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That is pretty much my concept for tha tpoint. |
15:29 |
garycmartin |
cjl: makes sense, I might skip the spreadsheet though ;-) |
15:29 |
gonzalo |
i was thinking in all the fructose/honey classification is not very useful anymore |
15:30 |
cjl |
garycmartin: Whatever works, I would jsut like othe aActivity team as active promoters fo i18n and L10n. |
15:30 |
garycmartin |
cjl: I'd like to think this might fit a little with my item about establishing the 'core' activities |
15:30 |
gonzalo |
garycmartin: +1 |
15:30 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo: +1 on the fructose/honey classification not being very useful |
15:31 |
cjl |
I think something like it has some utility, not entirely sure th ecurrrent breakdown is what it needs t obe. |
15:31 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo: Fructose boils down to Activity maintainers needing to agree to the Sugar release cycle. |
15:33 |
gonzalo |
garycmartin: yes, but in fact, with all the activities included by default in the olpc build we need apply a stabilization period |
15:33 |
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and the other distros use the olpc build as base |
15:33 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo: +1, but it's just that the maintainer has made no official commitment to do that. |
15:34 |
cjl |
No one responded to http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ember/033514.html about a Frcutose "freeze" set in git or pootle. |
15:35 |
gonzalo |
garycmartin: well, the maintainer at one point in the history :) i am pretty sure a lot of the activities changed maintainers .... |
15:35 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo: Yea :) |
15:35 |
cjl |
That would be a practical distinction between Fructose and Honey, but no one has spoken up. |
15:36 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo: also new things are being added to shipping builds without other changes to the workflow. |
15:37 |
gonzalo |
yes |
15:38 |
garycmartin |
cjl: so you're suggesting maintainers branch their git rep? |
15:38 |
gonzalo |
i think, in the context of l10n, would be great if the translators know what are the activities included by default |
15:38 |
cjl |
garycmartin: That would be the point of a frozen set. Fix a "last known good" set fo glucose and fructose |
15:39 |
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wit hthe underlying vchanges in glucose, at somepoint, an impt activity is going to get broken. |
15:39 |
garycmartin |
cjl: ASLO allows us to mark compatibility, is that not good enough? |
15:39 |
cjl |
It happened for Fructose 0.84 |
15:40 |
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garycmartin: not for L10n |
15:41 |
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If the POT changes (as they do) and we keep updatign he l10n, how do you go back if we don't have a frozen POT. |
15:41 |
gonzalo |
branching all the activities would add a lot of work to maintainers and translators |
15:41 |
garycmartin |
cjl: I know for sure that I could not manage releasing multiple branches for the activities I maintain. I'd never get any other work done :-( |
15:41 |
cjl |
gonzalo: yes, I understand, but what else makes a true differrentiation btween a fructose activity and a hony activity. |
15:42 |
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I'm not necessarily advocating creating all that work, as long as the consequences ar eunderstood and accepted |
15:42 |
gonzalo |
cjl, i think from a practical point of view, the only alternative is coordinate freeze periods |
15:42 |
cjl |
And it makes much mor eof a difference to OLPC than anyone |
15:43 |
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freeze periods are good from a snapshot build, but unless you freeze a set of the source and POT, there is no backfilling in langs that were not complete at snapshot time. |
15:44 |
gonzalo |
cjl, we did this cycle a lot better than in 11.2.0 |
15:44 |
cjl |
e.g. Armendian started out wanting a Sugar 0.84 build |
15:44 |
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Armenian |
15:44 |
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15:44 |
cjl |
gonzalo: I agree, |
15:45 |
garycmartin |
cjl: does your recent language pack revival help here? |
15:45 |
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walterbender: Hi |
15:45 |
gonzalo |
garycmartin: not ever |
15:45 |
cjl |
garycmartin: no, the lang-packs change and refresh right along with the POT |
15:46 |
gonzalo |
cjl, but one user can update the activities and use the lang packs |
15:46 |
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is no so difficult |
15:47 |
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the lang packs are a great tool, we need tweak it a little |
15:47 |
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cjl, i think we can add a "user" optative parameter to deal with non olpc installations |
15:47 |
cjl |
Guys, I swear I am not trying to advocate the creation of a lot of work, I just want to discuss the possible consequences of not doing that work. If they are acceptable, then so be it. |
15:48 |
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It is easier for me not t obranch frucotse in Poolt eas well. |
15:48 |
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It is easier for me not to branch fructose in Poolte as well. |
15:48 |
gonzalo |
cjl, yes, may be we need document the process needed to the users |
15:49 |
garycmartin |
cjl: I think we all know we have a painful 'red flag' day or two coming up if we are to move Sugar forward, and I doubt we have enough activity developer time to have them make dual releases for past builds. |
15:50 |
cjl |
garycmartin: I'm just advocating some thought about possible contingencies for tha tday |
15:50 |
garycmartin |
cjl: yes I understand. |
15:50 |
cjl |
One idea is a frozen "last known good" glucose/fructose pair. |
15:50 |
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Branching is a PITA in Pootle too, multiplied by all of you activities :-) |
15:51 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: let's see what the Prague meeting brings in terms of potential Flag Days... |
15:52 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: yes, good point. |
15:53 |
cjl |
that would be good. I just would hate tp hit that flag day and say, damn, if only we had created an 0.94 branch of Fructose, we'd have a stable situation to fall back on. |
15:53 |
garycmartin |
OK should we move on? |
15:53 |
cjl |
yep |
15:54 |
gonzalo |
+1 |
15:54 |
garycmartin |
#topic Diff between ASLO and Pootle Honey / Fructose hosted activities. |
15:54 |
cjl |
garycmartin: Technically that was a sub-point of promoting i18n and L10n |
15:54 |
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One method for doing it being tha spreadsheet you want t oskip :-) |
15:55 |
garycmartin |
cjl: you said this was something dsd mentioned
. Ah ok :-) |
15:55 |
cjl |
Sorry, second point by dsd was release notes |
15:55 |
garycmartin |
#topic Call for Activity maintainers to draft text on notable updates for 11.3.0 release notes http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Release_notes/11.3.0 |
15:55 |
cjl |
yes, that is a dsd request, and a reasonable one 9IMHO) |
15:56 |
gonzalo |
ok, i started http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Rele[…]11.3.0#Activities but a little help would be great |
15:56 |
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only the most important changes |
15:57 |
garycmartin |
cjl: Yes, agreed. Is this a list of bugs fixed, or new features? I never seem to get to all the features I want to add so I only have dull bug fixes. |
15:57 |
cjl |
garycmartin: I think just a few lines of what impt has changed since last OLPC build. |
15:57 |
gonzalo |
are important changes for the user |
15:58 |
cjl |
I'd ping dsd about what he's looking for. |
15:58 |
garycmartin |
cjl: gonzalo OK, good, 'user facing changes' |
15:58 |
cjl |
garycmartin: +1 I think that captures his intent |
15:58 |
gonzalo |
garycmartin: yes |
15:59 |
cjl |
And really only for those activities in the build. |
16:00 |
garycmartin |
#action Activity maintainers to update http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Rele[…]11.3.0#Activities with any user facing changes in their activity since the OLPC 11.2.0 release |
16:01 |
gonzalo |
if a native english speaker can do a review, is appreciated |
16:01 |
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:) |
16:01 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo: Will do :) |
16:01 |
gonzalo |
thanks! |
16:02 |
garycmartin |
#topic Review our Report (and plans) http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ember/014077.html |
16:03 |
gonzalo |
garycmartin: maybe we can change the order and check first who is in the team and later talk about plans? |
16:03 |
garycmartin |
It's probably a little long to read now (unless you've already read through it before) |
16:03 |
gonzalo |
garycmartin: we can talk about short term plans |
16:05 |
manuq |
about the UI review, I think some things spotted in our toolbars redesign |
16:05 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo: I think we need to mail shot the folks listed on http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/A[…]ity_Team/Contacts and see if they are still interested. There are a fair few names I don't recognise there. |
16:06 |
gonzalo |
yeah |
16:07 |
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then we can do a call to next meeting, in two weeks |
16:07 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo: yep. |
16:07 |
gonzalo |
with the specific proposal of discuss plans for the next months |
16:07 |
cjl |
garycmartin: I consider myself an "ex officio" who sits in on meetings to whinge about i18n and L10n :-) |
16:08 |
gonzalo |
and inviting to possible new members |
16:08 |
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cjl :) |
16:09 |
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garycmartin: the timing would be good, because we will be near 11.3.0 |
16:09 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo: Inviting is a tough one... |
16:10 |
gonzalo |
may be inviting to the maintainers of the actual core activities? |
16:10 |
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or maybe we need define first what are the core activities and the criteria to inclusion? |
16:11 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo: we could also ping past Activity developers directly, but if they are interested they'll be on sugar-devel and will already be seeing such emails. |
16:12 |
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gonzalo: (we did email many past developers when we migrated activities over from laptop.org, but had very few replies, mostly folks wanting to hand over maintenance). |
16:14 |
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gonzalo: having an active maintainer was a fairly critical part of the criteria to inclusion ;-) |
16:14 |
gonzalo |
garycmartin: +1 |
16:15 |
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garycmartin: then, what you think if in the next meeting we talk about this criteria and prepare a proposal of "core activities" |
16:16 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo: Unfortunately many activities are written as medium term projects, there's no really intent on longer term maintenance once the initial few releases are out (aka student projects). |
16:16 |
gonzalo |
garycmartin: yes |
16:17 |
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and there are times when maintainers change jobs, ar other real life activities and need stop |
16:17 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo: we do get some great things (Physics is a good example), but it usually take other team members to pick them up. |
16:17 |
gonzalo |
yeah |
16:18 |
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paint is another example |
16:18 |
manuq |
yes :) |
16:18 |
garycmartin |
OK... |
16:19 |
cjl |
garycmartin: Is there some way of creating incentives to be part of a "rescue" squad that takes on abandoned activities? |
16:19 |
gonzalo |
cjl, i think we can't rescue all the activities |
16:20 |
garycmartin |
So, next meeting (two weeks) we look at least going through the short term goals, and having emailed the folks on the contact page directly to gauge their interest? |
16:20 |
cjl |
gonzalo: no, I guess the othe relement would be a list of activities worthy of rescue. |
16:20 |
gonzalo |
garycmartin: +1 |
16:20 |
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cjl: i agree |
16:21 |
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garycmartin: another important point: we need a plan to the change to gtk3 |
16:21 |
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and probably guidelines |
16:21 |
garycmartin |
cjl: The Open Source mantra of 'let a thousand flowers bloom' means you have to let the vast majority dry up and die :-( That's where certain 'walled gardens' can take a different approach (with perhaps lest wastage and more focus). |
16:21 |
gonzalo |
this was not in our plans, but will hit us |
16:22 |
garycmartin |
likes to think the Activity Team can cultivate a small patch of flowers, with a small wicker fence rather than a stone wall ;) |
16:23 |
manuq |
garycmartin: +1 |
16:23 |
gonzalo |
garycmartin: you are a poet :) |
16:23 |
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but i agree with the idea |
16:24 |
cjl |
BTW, The AbiWord folks have made some real progress in their migration and I have extorted additional help with Write in exchange for taking on some L10n admin responsibilities for their PO files. |
16:24 |
garycmartin |
gonzalo: plan to gtk3 and introspection. Yea. I'm hoping for Prague to help lead the way there! |
16:25 |
gonzalo |
would convince martinlanghoff to send him to prague :) |
16:25 |
garycmartin |
I hear the beer is good ;) |
16:27 |
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#action ping contributors on the http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/A[…]ity_Team/Contacts page to gauge interest and invite to the next meeting (two weeks) |
16:28 |
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OK. Any other business for today? |
16:30 |
gonzalo |
garycmartin: no for me |
16:30 |
JT4sugar |
Not today but can you all put on your thinking caps on how Write to Journal anytime might be incorporated in your work |
16:31 |
garycmartin |
JT4sugar: We did cover this in Design Team Meetings some time back if I remember |
16:31 |
cjl |
garycmartin: congrats on accomplishing #4 of your short term goals "Re-start Activity Team IRC meetings." |
16:31 |
garycmartin |
JT4sugar: I'm sure we might have some mockups |
16:32 |
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JT4sugar: We can add it to the Design Team agenda for next week! |
16:32 |
JT4sugar |
garycmartin, In speaking with Walter it has gone somewhat dormat and for Sugar and literacy issues it could be a big step forward |
16:33 |
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garycmartin, When are the design meeting scheduled? Same time because you are alternating weeks is that correct? |
16:34 |
manuq |
JT4sugar: yes |
16:34 |
JT4sugar |
Thanks! |
16:34 |
garycmartin |
JT4sugar: (if I remember we wanted to add it at the Sugar level to make sure it was available as widely as possible in activities, e.g. in both the Activity Frame palette, and as a standard toolbar item in the place 'Keep' used to be) |
16:34 |
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cjl: re:completing #4, thanks! :-) |
16:35 |
JT4sugar |
garycmartin, Walter recently was talking about a possible addition as a keyboard shortcut which would pop into activity description page |
16:36 |
garycmartin |
JT4sugar: Yep, +1 from me on that. |
16:36 |
JT4sugar |
garycmartin, Appreciate you putting on agenda |
16:37 |
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16:37 |
cjl |
garycmartin: Another idea for an agenda sometime is a bug sweep day in Trac. Probably many old bugs that may be stale. |
16:38 |
garycmartin |
cjl: yes fair point. I try to sweep mine from time to time, but I know there are others out there. |
16:38 |
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OK, well thanks everyone for attending. See you here same time next week for the Design Team meeting, or in two weeks for the next Activity Team meeting! |
16:38 |
manuq |
real help in all activities will be excelent, and a consistent shortcut / help button |
16:39 |
garycmartin |
manuq: +1, we can add that to next weeks Design Meeting. |
16:40 |
JT4sugar |
Thanks All! Have A Good day! |
16:40 |
garycmartin |
#endmeeting |
16:40 |
meeting |
Meeting ended Mon Oct 10 16:40:26 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4) |
16:40 |
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Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-10T15:16:32.html |
16:40 |
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Log: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-10-10T15:16:32 |