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Time	Nick	Message
15:03	meeting	Meeting started Mon Sep 5 15:03:01 2011 UTC. The chair is garycmartin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:03		Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
15:03	manuq	last time Walter couldn't make it also
15:03		Mr_R <Mr_R!~rcristalmail.paraguayeduca.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:03	manuq	maybe we should discuss the meeting date again?
15:05		I have a topic, browse tabs
15:05	garycmartin	manuq: It might not be the time, but we should ping him by email to check.
15:05		manuq: Sounds like today you'd like to discuss Browse tab design than :)
15:06	manuq	garycmartin: ok I'll ping Walter
15:06	garycmartin	Anything else folks want to cover?
15:06	gonzalo	garycmartin: i have two proposal
15:07	silbe	not today - I'll wait until SugarCamp
15:07	manuq	garycmartin: yes! Simon and I would like to finish that soon
15:07	garycmartin	While I remember, I'll be at the Paris Camp next week, and will be traveling back late Monday so will not be available for this time next week.
15:07	manuq	garycmartin: ok, I'll take that into account
15:08	garycmartin	#topic Browse tab design
15:09		#link http://dev.laptop.org/~manuq/b[…]w_link_mockup.png
15:09	manuq	#link http://dev.laptop.org/~manuq/b[…]tabs/new_tabs.png
15:09	garycmartin	manuq: thanks for posting the above.
15:10	manuq	garycmartin: I made the change you proposed, prevent last tab from close
15:10		garycmartin: is working fine
15:11	garycmartin	manuq: Can you post one more with just two tabs. This will reveal an outstanding design issue where a user can not tell which of two tabs they might have selected.
15:11	silbe	manuq: BTW, what about PDF support in Browse? Did you folks settle on a PDF icon? Are we good to land PDF support?
15:11	garycmartin	manuq: re prevent last tab from closing, fab thanks.
15:12	gonzalo	silbe, i have a proposal to discuss, but is a separated topic
15:12		(and is half dirty.... i want discuss before doing it)
15:13		silbe, but are you talking about pdf export or pdf pluggin?
15:13	silbe	gonzalo: export
15:13	garycmartin	I must say I'm not 100% on the grey theme/style tabs currently. I think they should be more integrated to the main toolbar theme.
15:13	silbe	I hope PDF plugin support can be turned off when it lands in mainline ;)
15:14	manuq	#link http://dev.laptop.org/~manuq/b[…]tabs_two_tabs.png
15:14	silbe	(shutting up now, listening to garycmartin and manuq)
15:15	manuq	garycmartin: yes I don't like current theme for tabs also
15:16	garycmartin	manuq: one possibility is that we re use the dark toolbar black/grey for the non active parts of the tabs and tab areas, and only show the current, selected tab in a lighter grey.
15:17	manuq	garycmartin: +1 for that
15:17	garycmartin	that way the tab area will feel part of the main toolbar UI and the current tab selected will be more obvious.
15:18	manuq	yes
15:19	garycmartin	manuq: I'm not sure of what colour separator to use between the inactive tabs, +, and the remaining empty area. Probably the same grey as used by the selected tab.
15:19	gonzalo	garycmartin: may be you can create mockups to see?
15:20	garycmartin	manuq: Also, what do you think about making your 'x' close widgets white, so all clickable buttons are in the same toolbar like colour?
15:20	manuq	garycmartin: I think ideally tha tabs should have rounded corners on the top edge
15:21	garycmartin	gonzalo: Sure I can mockup one of the screens manuq just posted if that will help.
15:21	gonzalo	great
15:22	manuq	garycmartin: yes, white for x button is better, I'll do
15:22	garycmartin	manuq: I would not say no to rounded corners. If you manage it though you'll need to look at Terminal as well to keep tab style consistent ;-)
15:22	manuq	garycmartin: yes, we are discussing changes in Sugar world
15:23	garycmartin	manuq: are you needing to work on the mozila theme side of things for the Browse tabs or are you working pom the gtk+ side?
15:24	manuq	garycmartin: in gtk+ side
15:24	garycmartin	fab
15:25	manuq	discussing the theme for tabs in Sugar is great, however, we are in a hurry with Browse because tomorrow is the end of the development time for 11.3.0
15:26		and I would like to land the behaviour changes in tabs
15:27	garycmartin	manuq: Note that in Safari they went for rounded tabs on the _bottom_ of the tab shapes. I think this might be as there is no one way to blend a tab into joining to page content.
15:28	manuq	garycmartin: yes, that seems better
15:29	garycmartin	manuq: If we went that route then the selected tab would beed to be in toolbar dark grey/black, with the rest of the tab area in a grey.
15:29		s/beed/need/
15:30	manuq	garycmartin: and have the unused space on the right of the tabs in the same black/gray
15:30		?
15:32	garycmartin	manuq: I think we need to see some mockups :)
15:32	manuq	garycmartin: ok :)
15:32	garycmartin	I can do some quickly after the meeting.
15:32	manuq	garycmartin: I'm working on getting all the tabs the same width
15:32	garycmartin	(I'll just be pixel pushing your screen grabs)
15:32	manuq	garycmartin: good! thanks!
15:33	garycmartin	manuq: re tabs same width, fab. Will you de able to use ellipsis where page titles are truncated?
15:34	manuq	garycmartin: yes that's what I want to do
15:34		garycmartin: a thing to discuss is the width amount of the tabs
15:35	garycmartin	#action garycmartin to post mockups after meeting for different colour variations for tab feature
15:35	manuq	tab width may be a fraction of the screen width
15:35		erikos <erikos!~erikostmo-110-215.customers.d1-online.com> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:35	manuq	hi erikos
15:35	garycmartin	manuq: aaaahh.. width yes..
15:36		waves to erikos
15:36	erikos	hey!
15:36	gonzalo	manuq, can we implement a tab number limit, and use the max number of tabs to define the tab witdh?
15:37	manuq	gonzalo: yes we can do that
15:37	garycmartin	manuq: Fraction of screen seems reasonably. Also how about using N character widths so we have some guarantee of providing enough information about the tab?
15:38	manuq	we then need to gray our the '+' tab, and prevent the "follow link in new tab" on the palette
15:38		s/our/out
15:39	garycmartin	manuq: Quick question. When you resume a browse session from the Journal does it open up all the tabs that were open at the time?
15:39	manuq	garycmartin: yes!
15:39		erikos_ <erikos_!~erikostmo-110-215.customers.d1-online.com> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:40	garycmartin	manuq: fab, that's a really useful organisation feature and leverages folks to use the Journal for creating sets :)
15:40	manuq	garycmartin: :)
15:40		erikos has quit IRC
15:41	garycmartin	still thinking about the width...
15:41	manuq	N characters to determine width and warranty information being shown is good
15:42		garycmartin: maybe we should set a fraction of the screen width that warranties that N characters will be shown
15:42	garycmartin	manuq: is there a way to have a tab overflow? or is that too complicated?
15:42	manuq	garycmartin: we have that now
15:43	garycmartin	manuq: what happens, how does it look, a drop down palette at the end?
15:43	manuq	garycmartin: in that case, two arrows appears on the sides, and they allow scrolling the tabs
15:43	garycmartin	manuq: Ah thanks, yes you did mention that in an email.
15:44	erikos_	manuq, should be the normal gtk.notebook overflow, right?
15:44	manuq	erikos_: yes it is
15:44	erikos_	cool
15:45	garycmartin	manuq: How about a nice wide start size say, 4 tabs across the width, and then shrink down the tab width and more are added past that limit. Then when, say we have 8 tabs the overflow arrows come into use?
15:46	manuq	garycmartin: that's exactly what firefox does it
15:46	erikos_	yes
15:46	garycmartin	good guess :)
15:46	manuq	garycmartin: it has a maximun and a minimun width
15:47		#link http://dev.laptop.org/~manuq/b[…]abs_many_tabs.png
15:47	garycmartin	manuq: is that implementable for us?
15:47	m_anish	has a (stupid) question
15:47	manuq	the previos link shows the overflow
15:47	m_anish	(re: tabs)
15:47	manuq	m_anish: welcome, please ask
15:48		garycmartin: I would like to do it in that way
15:48	m_anish	manuq, would it make sense to save individual tabs as separate journal entries? (by default or atleast give the option to do that)
15:48		(not sure if it would be easy to implement though)
15:49	erikos_	what would be the benefit of this?
15:50	manuq	m_anish: if you are thinking in bookmarking, that's integrated already in Browse
15:52	garycmartin	manuq: +1 on the max/min scaling width behaviour, seems the sane choice.
15:52	m_anish	manuq, erikos_, something on the line of bookmarks, but saving instead in the journal
15:52	erikos_	m_anish, so bookmarks or saving page content?
15:54	manuq	m_anish: I think the journal should save the state of the activity, today I browse about a particular topic, and later I can open the journal and get all the pages and even go back for each page
15:54	m_anish	erikos_, was thinking along the lines of kids having a single place (journal) to reflect on the stuff they worked on
15:55	manuq	m_anish: I wish I can do that with firefox, it can only remember the last session
15:55	m_anish	manuq, +1, that seems about right
15:55	garycmartin	m_anish: I think adding that feature would likely complicate the existing behaviour. Starting a new Browse session, opening N tabs relating to your shark homework, then stopping, leaves you with a Journal entry that will resume with those same N tabs open.
15:56		m_anish: so it's just about showing that the kids can do this to have sets of tabs in a Journal entry so they can quickly resume it.
15:56	m_anish	garycmartin, +1 to that, i was thinking if the kid wanted to only save a particular page as a journal entry explicitly, but you're right, this does sound complicated
15:57	manuq	garycmartin: another thing to discuss is: when opening a new tab, should it contain the default page (current behaviour) or an empty page?
15:58	erikos_	empty page, empty page...
15:58	manuq	erikos_says blank empty page, like in firefox
15:58	garycmartin	erikos_ +1 for empty page
15:58	manuq	good
15:58	silbe	we still have the home button, do we?
15:59	erikos_	yes
15:59	silbe	ok
15:59	manuq	ok so I will...
16:00	garycmartin	manuq: at some point we could even put in a little empty page hint (like in an empty journal or blank Labyrinth canvas), but that is just a bit of polish for later ;-)
16:00	m_anish	another question, is there an easy way to move the bookmark button inside the address bar... (like in chrome)? it seems to consume a lot of space on the toolbar otherwise
16:00	garycmartin	m_anish: we bounced that idea around last week :-)
16:00	m_anish	garycmartin, oops, sorry :)
16:01	manuq	garycmartin: that would be great, a simple html page should suffice
16:01	erikos_	garycmartin, yes, the hint sounds like a nice idea indeed
16:01	manuq	I'll add the hint then
16:01	garycmartin	m_anish: I think the star is more important than just the idea of 'book marking' as it is our magic Browse solution to group collaboration. Hiding it in the address bar would make it a little less obvious.
16:02		manuq: a blank page is fine for now. I think coming up with a useful 'blank page' hint might burn too much time getting right.
16:03	manuq	garycmartin: ok
16:03	m_anish	garycmartin, /me isn't very sure if bookmarking is used a lot (maybe it is). btw, would categorizing bookmarks be a good idea?
16:04	erikos_	m_anish, like garycmartin points out, bookmarking is the collab feature in browse
16:04	garycmartin	manuq: Ideally we should aim to standardise on all our cases of user is looking at a blank page, but that's another effort I think to help lead new users into Sugar and activities.
16:05	m_anish	erikos_, garycmartin, fwiw, browse is easily the most used activity by most kids :-)
16:05	manuq	garycmartin: ok, we should standarize that
16:05	m_anish	shuts up
16:06		adborden <adborden!~adbordenc-69-181-104-205.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:06	manuq	another thing to discuss is the "open link in new tab" for the link palette
16:06	erikos_	manuq, yes!
16:06	garycmartin	m_anish: FWIW I do use our bookmarking feature, but not heavily, I have perhaps 3 or 4 commonly used Browse Journal entries that get me quickly to development documentation, social networking sites, etc.
16:07	manuq	here is a proposal from me: http://dev.laptop.org/~manuq/b[…]w_link_mockup.png
16:07	erikos_	garycmartin, we should add real global bookmarking at one point :/
16:07		garycmartin, has been pending for years
16:07		(as a side hint)
16:07		looks at manu's mockup
16:09		manuq, the follow link symbol is simple, I like it, could do the trick
16:09	garycmartin	manuq: re "open link in new tab", absolutely. I like your proposal, the follow link icon change, the new icon/wording, and the re-order :)
16:09	manuq	erikos_: garycmartin, good!
16:10	garycmartin	+1 :)
16:10	manuq	because it's already implemented, not a mockup :)
16:10	erikos_	:)
16:10	garycmartin	:)
16:11	erikos_	and yes, as Gary points out, the order is nice, too
16:11	manuq	thanks! I think I can continue working on this now
16:11	erikos_	same as FF
16:11	garycmartin	#agree http://dev.laptop.org/~manuq/b[…]w_link_mockup.png
16:11	erikos_	we can surf on their wave for those things
16:13	garycmartin	manuq: Any more design items stalling you?
16:13	manuq	I think that's all from my side
16:13		any other thing to discuss?
16:14	garycmartin	gonzalo: did you have a new topic you wanted to cover?
16:14		(you mentioned something new at the start of the meeting)
16:15		erikos_ has quit IRC
16:16	garycmartin	Looks like gonzalo has fallen asleep ;)
16:16	m_anish	has another question that's possibly design related ... its been a long time pain at deployments with xo1 laptops
16:16	silbe	garycmartin: erikos too ;)
16:16	garycmartin	m_anish: sure.
16:17	m_anish	basically, the xo-1 isn't getting any faster, but the internet is getting a lot heavier... and as a result browse can be real slow to load webpages...
16:17		silbe, i think i talked abt this some time ago with you
16:18		we were thinking of ways in which browse could be made to work faster, but ddin't really have much ideas...
16:18		one thing that was floated was loading mobile versions of websites (which are typically lighter)
16:19		but that could mean big changes to the way kids percieve browse, webpages
16:19	garycmartin	m_anish: not very exciting, but how about a text only mode (images/media replaced with blank filter so that page layout is preserved)?
16:19	m_anish	it wasn't implemented in dextrose in py, because this seemed to be a very big and intrusive change (user experience wise)
16:19	silbe	m_anish: "mobile" versions are usually rather limited in functionality. It may be better than nothing at all, but still second-class.
16:20	m_anish	the problem (so far) is only on xo1 laptops
16:20		i don't know how browse internals work, if a specific page is consuming too many resources, maybe we could load the mobile version (if available) of just that page...
16:21		obv, these ideas aren't coherent in my mind, but i wanted to express the problem more than give the soln :/
16:21	garycmartin	m_anish: I'd like to think that web site designers are leaning now that many of their users are using low power mobile devices and will be more careful with the wasteful content heavy designs to reach more users...
16:22		erikos <erikos!~erikostmo-110-215.customers.d1-online.com> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:22	erikos	loves his 3g network :/
16:22	silbe	m_anish: I don't think there's any easy solution. WebKit is supposed to be more lightweight, so in the short to medium it would make more sense to focus on the switch to WebKit (that we need to do anyway).
16:22		erikos: who doesn't? :-/
16:22	erikos	silbe, ;p
16:22	m_anish	garycmartin, yep, but they would be mindful of that while creating the 'mobile' versions of their websites?
16:23	erikos	garycmartin, one quick question about the document folder in the Journal
16:24	m_anish	silbe, +1 to webkit btw :)
16:24	garycmartin	m_anish: I think 'mobile' and 'desktop' websites are starting to merge now that devices in-between phones and desktops are getting so common (ie. tablets, ebooks).
16:24	manuq	m_anish: another thing to consider is limiting the amount of opened tabs
16:24	erikos	garycmartin, http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ugust/032966.html
16:24	silbe	m_anish: yeah, the faster the better - Browse doesn't work on my new XO (running Debian Wheezy) :-/
16:25	m_anish	garycmartin, fwiw, google keeps coming up with heavier versions of their 'normal' websites, but their 'mobile' websites are lighter and different
16:25	garycmartin	m_anish: I can imagine us having an option in our View toolbar to not download images. That would make quite a difference.
16:25	m_anish	(its just one example though)
16:25	silbe	manuq: it's hard to come up with a single, sensible limit for the number of tabs.
16:26	m_anish	garycmartin, +1, that doesn't sound too bad to me :)
16:26	garycmartin	m_anish: and it also reduces the pain of high bandwidth.
16:27		erikos, looking...
16:27	m_anish	garycmartin, yep
16:28	garycmartin	erikos: Are you looking for wording for the case where $HOME/Documents is empty?
16:28	silbe	garycmartin: are you sure that regular images make a significant difference? I'd expect JavaScript and Flash to be more of a problem.
16:28	erikos	garycmartin, yes, and for the external devices (e.g. usb stick)
16:30	garycmartin	silbe: Well we still ship with click 2 flash don't we? It's your own fault if you turn Flash back on again, I even disable it on all my own machines, can't stand that crash, cpu hog junk ;-)
16:31	m_anish	:-)
16:31	silbe	garycmartin: I don't know if we still do (and can't check), but if not I'd consider it a bug. ;)
16:32	m_anish	silbe, IIRC, it was click to flash atleast in dx2
16:32	garycmartin	erikos: For the device message, can we say <device name> is empty?
16:33	erikos	garycmartin, should be doable yes
16:34	manuq	+1
16:34	erikos	garycmartin, and for the documents folder?
16:34		maybe: 'Your documents folder is empty' ?
16:34	garycmartin	erikos: is there an issue with saying <document_folder_locale_name> is empty?
16:35	silbe	m_anish: wouldn't hurt to re-check for DX3. We're not following Mozilla development closely, so it might got broken without us noticing.
16:36	erikos	garycmartin, without the 'your'?
16:37	garycmartin	erikos: 'Your <document_folder_locale_name> is empty' seems fine as well. I'm just trying to think if we want to say 'folder' or not.
16:37	m_anish	silbe, +1, http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/3082
16:38	garycmartin	erikos: With Walters Document volume patch, what does it call it when you hover your cursor over the Document volume icon? A Document folder?
16:38	erikos	garycmartin, well in english that would be 'Your Documents is empty'
16:39	garycmartin	erikos: yes fair point, the plural is a little odd.
16:39	erikos	http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0[…]lying_file_system
16:39		garycmartin, ^
16:40	garycmartin	hmmmm
16:41	erikos	'/home/erikos/Documents/' '/home/erikos/Dokumente/'
16:41		those are the english and german folder names
16:41		the german one is plural, too
16:42	garycmartin	erikos: folder vs. directory vs. path. I guess folder is the most human friendly name for it.
16:44	erikos	yes, folder sounds best to me as well
16:44	garycmartin	erikos: OK so I guess 'Your <documents_locale_name> folder is empty' is what we have...
16:45	erikos	sounds good
16:45	garycmartin	;)
16:45	erikos	and for the external device only:
16:46		'<device name> is empty'
16:46	garycmartin	erikos: so, you have much more of this saved up for the Paris Camp? ;-b
16:46	erikos	garycmartin, I made a list the other day...;p
16:46		garycmartin, is pretty long - but we can settle on a few point
16:46		s
16:47	silbe	garycmartin: have you considered joining the Journal design session, BTW?
16:47	garycmartin	erikos: for the device, I was thinking that dropping the 'Your' would make sense as it might not be your physical device (a friends, a teachers, etc).
16:48	erikos	garycmartin, yes, agreed absolutely
16:48	garycmartin	silbe: depending how technical it gets ;-)
16:48	silbe	garycmartin: depends on the participants :)
16:49	garycmartin	erikos: Point to raise is what other volumes we might end up showing in the volumes bar...
16:50		erikos: If we start to get a few 'common' remote services, then perhaps "Your" is more important for showing physical things plugged into your XO/laptop?
16:50	erikos	garycmartin, you mean DVD, CD and such?
16:50		garycmartin, oh, i see now
16:50	silbe	garycmartin: FWIW I'm still working on WebDAV support which will show up like a volume in the Journal
16:51	erikos	garycmartin, I guess we are far from that, and can adjust then
16:51	garycmartin	erikos: DVD, CD? No they'll be almost dead in a few years ;-)
16:51	erikos	;p
16:51	garycmartin	silbe: cool.
16:51	m_anish	another stupid question, if its not 'your' (mine) remote storage, should it be in my (xo's) color scheme?
16:52		s/in/displayed in journal in/
16:52	garycmartin	m_anish: For remote entities that have their own identities (certainly school servers) I'd argue for making sure we show them in their unique colours where ever they need to appear in our UI.
16:54		m_anish: Another example is if we went down the path of allowing one user to share their Journal (or part of) with another. The volumes bar could be used in the Journal to allow the users to browse the shared Journal objects, and would obviously use the remote users XO colours.
16:54	erikos	garycmartin, for the working we are done?
16:54	m_anish	garycmartin, should the same be extended to, for example, displaying the usb-drive in different color in the journal
16:54		garycmartin, +1 (on second comment)
16:54	erikos	or b/w
16:55	garycmartin	erikos: yes b/w would make sense for unknown entity ownership.
16:55	m_anish	i guess we follow a similar principle for displaying networks in the frame
16:56	erikos	s/working/wording
16:56	silbe	garycmartin: that's what I'm testing WebDAV (client) support in the Journal with: journal2webdav (server)
16:59	garycmartin	erikos: OK so happy with '<device_name> folder is empty'? Given we can't tell ownership?
17:00		erikos: scratch that...
17:00		erikos: '<device_name> is empty'
17:01	erikos	garycmartin, yes
17:02	garycmartin	erikos: I'm assuming we can be reasonably confident the Journal, and /$HOME/Documents are the users barring some nifty sym linking under the hood ;)
17:02	erikos	hehe yeah
17:03	garycmartin	...which of course will be what I'll do so I can have a shared documents folder on my Mac with all my Sugar VMs and the XO's ;-)
17:05	silbe	garycmartin: It's arguably still yours ;)
17:05	garycmartin	:)
17:05		OK, we should really wrap up the meeting, any more?
17:05		5...
17:05	erikos	4
17:05	garycmartin	3...
17:06	m_anish	bah... base 10 numbers :P
17:06	erikos	2
17:06	garycmartin	1...
17:06	erikos	hurray!
17:06	garycmartin	Game Over!
17:06	erikos	thanks everyone!
17:06	garycmartin	#endmeeting
17:06	meeting	Meeting ended Mon Sep 5 17:06:34 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
17:06		Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-05T15:03:01.html
17:06		Log: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-09-05T15:03:01

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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2011-09-05 15:03:01