Time |
Nick |
Message |
16:10 |
meeting |
Meeting started Wed Aug 10 16:10:22 2011 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. |
16:10 |
|
Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting |
16:10 |
gonzalo |
walterbender: you know anything from gary? |
16:10 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: no. haven't heard from him at all |
16:11 |
|
BTW, silbe asked if we could move the meeting to a different time so he could join us... he suggested Mondays at 15UTC, if I recall |
16:11 |
|
but we should see what times work for gary too |
16:12 |
gonzalo |
ok |
16:12 |
walterbender |
as manuq and I were discussing, I'd like to revisit the icons for Journal IO and filesystem IO |
16:12 |
gonzalo |
walterbender: ok |
16:12 |
|
walterbender: you are talking about the big arrows? |
16:12 |
walterbender |
yes... :P |
16:13 |
manuq |
walterbender: a while ago I did some import/export icons |
16:13 |
walterbender |
I am wondering if something as simple as replacing the box with a Journal icon wouldn't work better... |
16:13 |
manuq |
http://dev.laptop.org/~manuq/import-export/ |
16:14 |
walterbender |
I mean the box that gonzalo designed for collections |
16:14 |
manuq |
walterbender: right |
16:14 |
walterbender |
manuq: the problem I have with those designs is (1) they are too similar to the transfer icons and (2) they don't say to me Journal in any way |
16:15 |
manuq |
walterbender: I can try an icon with the journal as a badge |
16:15 |
walterbender |
manuq: a badge won't tell us save vs load |
16:15 |
|
manuq: but the arrow in or out of the box does tell us that |
16:15 |
gonzalo |
walterbender: i am not very very sure about the box also |
16:15 |
walterbender |
let me try a quick mock-up... one second |
16:16 |
manuq |
walterbender: I didn't mean badge, bad english |
16:16 |
gonzalo |
but is a different concept the collection than the journal io |
16:16 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: the box may not be perfect, but I think it is by far better than what we had before... |
16:16 |
manuq |
walterbender: I mean using the journal like the box |
16:17 |
walterbender |
manuq: I'd like to see what that looks like... |
16:17 |
|
gonzalo: I think this works pretty well: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/imag[…]lbar_Examples.png |
16:17 |
manuq |
walterbender: I'm on inkscape atm |
16:18 |
gonzalo |
walterbender, manuq: before starting with graphic ideas, may be we can check what concepts we need display |
16:18 |
walterbender |
manuq: It may look somewhat like http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/imag[…]ize_Toolbar_3.png but I think the scale is wrong. |
16:18 |
manuq |
walterbender: right! |
16:18 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: we need the concept of loading (or saving) a particular object type to the Journal... |
16:19 |
|
gonzalo: an activity instance or a picture or sound or python code, etc. |
16:19 |
|
gonzalo: we also need a way of doing the same for the file system |
16:20 |
gonzalo |
and transfers, and collections inside a activity |
16:20 |
|
(like the abacus or tamtam subtoolbars) |
16:20 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: (unless we adopt the schema we discussed last week of letting activities mount the file system in the journal for the Chooser) |
16:20 |
|
gonzalo: more like the memorize or turtle art toolbars... |
16:21 |
|
gonzalo: I need a solution for http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/imag[…]cks_Toolbar_3.png |
16:21 |
gonzalo |
walterbender: yes, i think the arrows in this case are not right |
16:22 |
manuq |
+1 |
16:22 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: I think memorize is closer to the right metaphor: the journal icon and an arrow |
16:22 |
gonzalo |
walterbender: i agree |
16:22 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: but they details are wrong: proportions etc. |
16:24 |
|
is not sure how to distinguish turtle art code from Logo code -- both really want to be represented by turtles. |
16:24 |
manuq |
:) |
16:25 |
|
OK I can work on the icons for load/save from/to journal |
16:26 |
|
taking into account the Memorize ones, changing proportions, and making it look similar to the collections |
16:26 |
|
I thought for a moment in the opened book I did for Wikipedia: |
16:26 |
|
http://dev.laptop.org/~manuq/w[…]search_icon_2.png |
16:27 |
gonzalo |
walterbender, manuq: is very easy play with the sizes in these icons http://dev.laptop.org/~gonzalo/game-load.svg |
16:27 |
manuq |
but I like the journal seen from the front cover |
16:28 |
|
tch has quit IRC |
16:29 |
manuq |
gonzalo: good! |
16:29 |
gonzalo |
i think we need a guide about how apply the sparkle, the box or the journal folder and arrows |
16:29 |
manuq |
we should take car of the stroke lines widths |
16:29 |
gonzalo |
yes |
16:30 |
manuq |
yes, I can write a guide |
16:30 |
|
gonzalo: we better try to use them in more icons also |
16:31 |
|
gonzalo: to see if they work |
16:31 |
walterbender |
I just made a new icon... uploading |
16:31 |
manuq |
we need more test cases for the sparkle, box and journal |
16:32 |
walterbender |
manuq: I generated 3-4 examples of each on the Talk page in the wiki... |
16:32 |
manuq |
goes to the talk page |
16:32 |
gonzalo |
manuq, walterbender, do you think we need a different badge to exports? i don't think so, we are showing the format |
16:33 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: I don't follow you... can you point to an example? |
16:34 |
|
is really frustrated by how slow the wiki is... :P |
16:35 |
gonzalo |
walterbender: i think we talked about import/export icons, are these the same Journal IO icons or are different? |
16:36 |
walterbender |
import/export to where? the file system? I think we need to look at that as well |
16:37 |
gonzalo |
walterbender: can you show me one case where we need them? |
16:37 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: in turtle art, importing examples of TA code or Python code |
16:38 |
|
gonzalo: or in the new Edit where you can load or save to the file system |
16:39 |
gonzalo |
walterbender: but if we show the needed directory in the object chooser we resolve this problem |
16:40 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: yes... if... |
16:40 |
gonzalo |
walterbender: yes, i know, but i think is more consistent |
16:40 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: we will need to do something for when the activities are run on Sugar without this feature, which currently is all of sugar :P |
16:41 |
|
anyway, what do you think of http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/imag[…]eArt-code.svg.png |
16:41 |
|
err... http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/T[…]011-08-10_meeting |
16:42 |
gonzalo |
walterbender: if is slow in Boston, imagine in buenos aires... :) |
16:43 |
manuq |
or Santa Fe :) |
16:43 |
gonzalo |
walterbender, i think is a better |
16:44 |
manuq |
I like the proportions, but I like more the opened journal in the Memorize designs |
16:44 |
|
and I think that the arrow can be better |
16:44 |
gonzalo |
manuq, yes, but the closed journal is simpler and can be smaller |
16:44 |
walterbender |
manuq: good point about the open journal |
16:44 |
|
I'll try it and we can compare |
16:45 |
|
how can I improve the arrow? |
16:46 |
manuq |
walterbender: let me check |
16:49 |
walterbender |
the wiki is soooo sloooow :( |
16:52 |
|
the 'open journal' example is still uploading... |
16:53 |
manuq |
maybe I do design work after the meeting |
16:54 |
gonzalo |
manuq, +1 |
16:54 |
manuq |
any other topic? |
16:54 |
gonzalo |
you can do a few examples looking at the actual toolbars |
16:55 |
manuq |
gonzalo: yes I will |
16:55 |
gonzalo |
look at Laberynth and Write too |
16:55 |
manuq |
ok |
16:55 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: I'll make a new example from the TA toolbars after the meeting |
16:55 |
gonzalo |
walterbender: ok |
16:56 |
walterbender |
let's switch topics to Laberynth and Write |
16:56 |
gonzalo |
walterbender: do you want continue with toolbars review like in the last meeting? |
16:56 |
|
or we can talk about Memorize proposed design |
16:56 |
|
(or startup animations!) |
16:57 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: whatever will be most useful to you |
16:57 |
manuq |
gonzalo: the startup animations look awesome! |
16:57 |
walterbender |
+1 |
16:57 |
gonzalo |
i _really_ want push this (i started at the end of last year) |
16:58 |
manuq |
gonzalo: I sent you an email about memorize design, I think a week ago |
16:58 |
gonzalo |
yes manuq |
16:58 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: I think from the design POV, it is set to go |
16:59 |
|
It is fast, which is really what the users care about |
16:59 |
gonzalo |
walterbender, you think the first example (with alpha) is enough visible? |
17:00 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: at the point, I think that efficiency should be the overriding concern... we just need to give a hint to the user that something is happening... |
17:02 |
gonzalo |
walterbender: i agree, but the pulsing icons are used in other few palces, like the access point in the neighborview when connecting |
17:03 |
|
and sasha said before we need check this with design team because is a change in the visuals |
17:03 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: I am afraid we should get a final signoff when gary can chime in too... but I am fine with it |
17:04 |
gonzalo |
walterbender: ok, may be you can reply the mail in sugar-devel, we are at 5 days of freeze |
17:05 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: OK... (thought I did already but maybe I did not) |
17:05 |
gonzalo |
also i removed hippo from the launcher :) |
17:05 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: :) |
17:06 |
gonzalo |
ok, can we check the memorize proposal? |
17:06 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: can you provide a link to the images? |
17:07 |
gonzalo |
walterbender, sent email, sorry i though i sent you before |
17:08 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: I'll look for it... |
17:09 |
|
gonzalo: I think that in general the layout makes sense... |
17:09 |
|
gonzalo: but maybe keep the load and save buttons on the main toolbar? |
17:10 |
|
(and we need to clean up those icons) |
17:10 |
|
gonzalo: I think the disabled versions of the icons are very subtle. perhaps too subtle? |
17:11 |
gonzalo |
walterbender, i am afraid of space in the main toolbar (specially by the combos with text) |
17:11 |
|
walterbender, may be i can show/hide the buttons |
17:11 |
|
walterbender, when we change from play to build mode |
17:12 |
manuq |
gonzalo: or maybe move it to the canvas? |
17:12 |
|
but it may be a bad idea, to have buttons outside toolbars |
17:12 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: yeah... I was afraid of that... |
17:12 |
gonzalo |
manuq, the last example move the buttons to the canvas |
17:13 |
|
walterbender, this week i was working in the armenian build, the texts are huge :( |
17:13 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: maybe the customize should be a subtoolbar and the save would live there. |
17:14 |
manuq |
gonzalo: yes, in my replay, I moved also the toolbar elements in play mode |
17:14 |
gonzalo |
walterbender, no, because if is a subtoolbar, you can change accidentally only with hover |
17:14 |
|
and all the screen cange |
17:14 |
|
change |
17:15 |
manuq |
walterbender: the problem with subtulbars is that it changes the size of the canvas |
17:15 |
|
as gonzalo said before me |
17:16 |
gonzalo |
manuq, but in this case, not only the size, here change the content of the canvas |
17:16 |
manuq |
gonzalo: yes |
17:16 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: if the edit toolbar would be separate from the others, then it is less of an issue. |
17:18 |
gonzalo |
walterbender, i don't think so |
17:18 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: it seems we would want to be able to bounce back and forth between editing and playing |
17:19 |
gonzalo |
walterbender, yes, but not accidentally :) |
17:20 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: but if you can swtich back and forth non destructively, why not? |
17:22 |
gonzalo |
walterbender: i think will be distractive |
17:22 |
|
i think is better use a explicit change of mode by the user |
17:23 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: yes... but I am not sure I understand the scenario you are describing... |
17:23 |
gonzalo |
walterbender: what we get if we use a subtoolbar to edit? |
17:23 |
|
walterbender: look at this |
17:24 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: If I am already playing a game, I have no need to use the toolbars... the chances of accidentally jumping to edit mode would be mimimal |
17:24 |
|
gonzalo: but if I am exploring the toolbar, then I would expect that things change |
17:25 |
|
gonzalo: but maybe we need a new toolbar option that allows one to disable open on hover? |
17:27 |
gonzalo |
walterbender: may be, put can be confusing if the user expect opening on hover, or we change the visual representation (may be putting "..." insted of "v") |
17:27 |
walterbender |
notes that http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/T[…]m/Toolbar_Catalog finally finished the upload |
17:27 |
manuq |
walterbender: is better! |
17:28 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: I am trying to think of how it works in Visual Match, that also lets you make custom cards... |
17:28 |
manuq |
walterbender: I'm working in a similar icon, with some subtle changes |
17:29 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: in Visual Match, I don't load the edit screen until you hit an edit button on the secondary toolbar |
17:31 |
|
manuq: please upload it to the wiki when you are done... |
17:32 |
manuq |
walterbender: ok |
17:34 |
gonzalo |
walterbender, and in VisualMatch you can go and back from game to build? |
17:35 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: well, mostly, yes |
17:36 |
gonzalo |
walterbender, why you think the save/load icons would be in the main toolbar and not in the activity toolbar? |
17:37 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: I guess I want the load button with the play tools and the save button with the create tools |
17:38 |
gonzalo |
bu you can load a game to modify it |
17:38 |
|
and to save, you need set a name |
17:39 |
|
another idea may be move to the canvas, at the top of the left side |
17:39 |
|
a part with the general features of the game |
17:39 |
|
Name: [ ] |
17:40 |
|
Type of game: [similar images] [grouped] |
17:40 |
|
------------------------------------------------ |
17:41 |
|
and bottom the part where you add pairs to the game |
17:41 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: I think the name of the game is different than the name of the activity instance, actually |
17:41 |
gonzalo |
walterbender:yes |
17:42 |
|
and if we do it |
17:42 |
manuq |
so the inside canvas option may be a good idea |
17:43 |
gonzalo |
we can look at the start of memorize, the list of games in the journal and add them to the combo with the examples |
17:43 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: +1 to that idea |
17:44 |
gonzalo |
walterbender: then we do not need a load button, only save |
17:45 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: exactly |
17:45 |
|
and we really don't even need a save button... we should always be saving if you are editing |
17:45 |
|
but we need to have a unique name |
17:46 |
|
maybe we are always saving to "custom" until you rename it... |
17:47 |
gonzalo |
walterbender: or disable the controls until you put a name |
17:47 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: disable what controls? |
17:49 |
gonzalo |
the controls to add pairs? |
17:49 |
|
mhh, would be confussing |
17:49 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: I also think that would be confusing... |
17:50 |
|
gonzalo: just let them edit to a default name until they give it a final name... |
17:50 |
|
and as soon as they start editing, there game should be in the combo box for playing |
17:50 |
|
if they rename it, it gets renamed in the combo box |
17:51 |
|
but it should always save automatically |
17:51 |
gonzalo |
ok |
17:51 |
walterbender |
should make visual match work this way as well... |
17:51 |
manuq |
if you don't put names, there may be many "custom" in the combo box |
17:51 |
|
but I think it's ok |
17:52 |
walterbender |
manuq: I think only one custom... |
17:52 |
gonzalo |
custom 1, custom 2, custom 3 |
17:52 |
manuq |
right |
17:52 |
walterbender |
the question is how to select which game you want to edit... whatever one is loaded in the combo box? |
17:53 |
|
so on the edit toolbar, you can either edit current or edit new? |
17:54 |
|
but until you choose one or the other, you don't repaint the canvas with the editing layout? |
17:54 |
gonzalo |
if we open the game selected in the combo, we need a button to create a new empty game |
17:54 |
walterbender |
solving the problem of disrupting the flow by hover? |
17:54 |
|
gonzalo: exactly |
17:55 |
gonzalo |
and will be a problem found a icon different to "create new game" and "play new game" |
17:56 |
manuq |
yes the spark is for both concepts |
17:57 |
walterbender |
manuq: I thought spark was for play and gear was for create |
17:58 |
|
needs to further rework the Visual Match icons to better reflect this... |
17:58 |
manuq |
walterbender: yes, sorry, is just my bad english |
17:58 |
walterbender |
to play a custom game, you'll hit a button of a gear with a spark badge :P |
17:59 |
|
will mock up a new toolbar for Visual Match to demonstrate these ideas |
18:00 |
|
maybe we should wrap up for today? |
18:00 |
gonzalo |
walterbender, yes i think so |
18:00 |
manuq |
me too |
18:00 |
walterbender |
I will respond to gonzalo's email about the launch animation... |
18:00 |
gonzalo |
thanks :) |
18:01 |
walterbender |
and I will make mockups for turtle art (import from Journal) and Visual match (play vs create) |
18:01 |
|
manuq: can you post your refinements to the load from journal icon? |
18:01 |
|
tch <tch!~tchmail.paraguayeduca.org> has joined #sugar-meeting |
18:01 |
manuq |
walterbender: I'll do |
18:01 |
walterbender |
and I will email gary about scheduling a new time for these meetings. |
18:02 |
|
does Mondays at 15UTC work for you guys? (I think that was when Sascha was hoping to meet) |
18:02 |
gonzalo |
and may be manuq can propose a guide to use the gear, box, spark and journal |
18:02 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: +1 |
18:02 |
gonzalo |
mondays we have a meeting |
18:02 |
manuq |
I will |
18:03 |
gonzalo |
with our team |
18:03 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: what time? |
18:03 |
manuq |
gonzalo: yes, until.. 14 UTC? |
18:03 |
gonzalo |
yes, i think is 13 UTC ? |
18:03 |
|
manuq? |
18:03 |
walterbender |
so after 15UTC may work? |
18:04 |
|
I'll ping gary in any case to see what might work for him. |
18:04 |
|
thanks for a productive discussion today. |
18:04 |
gonzalo |
sorry, our meeting is at 14 UTC |
18:04 |
manuq |
gonzalo: yes |
18:04 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: I imagine it can run for several hours? |
18:05 |
gonzalo |
is faster than the friday meeting |
18:05 |
walterbender |
manuq: oh. we forgot to discuss the use of separators. |
18:05 |
manuq |
walterbender: ops, yes |
18:05 |
walterbender |
manuq: for next time, maybe we can prepare some proposals. |
18:06 |
manuq |
walterbender: ok |
18:06 |
gonzalo |
ok, let see if 15UTC is a viable option |
18:06 |
|
walterbender: ok? |
18:06 |
manuq |
hopefully we can have a consistent UI in the short term |
18:06 |
gonzalo |
manuq, yes, i am sure we can |
18:07 |
walterbender |
gonzalo: OK. I'll run it past Gary and Sascha |
18:07 |
|
manuq: I think we are getting close... much better than we had been |
18:07 |
manuq |
yes! |
18:07 |
|
ok, thanks walterbender and gonzalo |
18:07 |
walterbender |
ok... back to writing code :) |
18:08 |
|
#endmeeting |
18:08 |
meeting |
Meeting ended Wed Aug 10 18:08:02 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4) |
18:08 |
|
Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-10T16:10:22.html |
18:08 |
|
Log: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-08-10T16:10:22 |