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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2011-07-09 14:31:36

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14:31 meeting Meeting started Sat Jul  9 14:31:36 2011 UTC. The chair is silbe. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:31 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
14:32 silbe #topic Backup / Restore activities vs. backup / restore features in Dextrose
14:32 #info The Backup / Restore activities and the backup / restore feature in Dextrose use different, incompatible file formats.
14:33 #action m_anish check how they backuped and restored the journal when moving from 0.84 to dx2 in  py
14:33 m_anish tch, any idea how they migrated journal/datastores from 0.84 to dx2?
14:33 silbe, :)
14:33 silbe m_anish: always a pleasure to move things from my plate to yours ;)
14:34 m_anish silbe, haha, :)
14:34 tch m_anish: I think they used the xs backup script and then restored it using dx gui
14:36 dirakx around.
14:38 silbe tch, m_anish: can you check that and follow up to yama's mail (Message-ID: <BANLkTikUqM8ZteLo4gmdeTsX_kUcWKKNog@mail.gmail.com>), please?
14:38 yama: anything else re. backup / restore you'd like to discuss today?
14:39 m_anish silbe, ack
14:39 yama silbe: dfarning and I came to a basic agreement of how AC is to work with OLPCAU. Not sure if he's informed you all yet.
14:39 if not, maybe I should wait until he does
14:40 silbe yama: I not sure right now. There's been a lot going on lately.
14:41 yama silbe: I can just summarise then
14:41 silbe #topic OLPC-AU
14:41 yama: go ahead
14:42 yama: just remember that this is a publically logged channel
14:42 yama cool
14:42 the settlement we came to is that AC will work in the OLPCAU tracker for things related to OLPCAU.
14:43 what that means is that AC devs should make an account at dev.laptop.org.au
14:43 let me know your username and I'll set the correct permissions on your account
14:43 so far we've been working well with dirakx, for example
14:43 dirakx yama: +1.
14:43 silbe yama: silbe
14:44 yama silbe: you're already taken care of :)
14:44 m_anish yama, m_anish
14:44 :)
14:44 silbe yama: nice, thx.
14:44 icarito #link http://dev.laptop.org.au/
14:45 m_anish yama, or rather, just anish (if that's available), sorry :)
14:45 yama m_anish: it's available. Can you please register yourself and let me know?
14:46 silbe #action all AC devs to create account on https://dev.laptop.org.au/account/register and send user name to yama (for permissions).
14:46 yama I might also be contacting some of you guys directly about our work. I'd appreciate a speedy reply.
14:47 silbe yama: how would you define "speedy" in this context?
14:47 yama I mentioned last meeting that I'll be on leave from Aug to Oct. That means I really need the AC-OLPCAU collaboration to be productive and sustainable before the end of this month.
14:48 On our side we've got jvonau, who will be working with you guys
14:49 m_anish yama, fyi, i created an account with username:anish
14:50 yama m_anish: great, I've fixed it for you
14:50 silbe yama: we'll certainly give our best. Is there anything in particular you're worrying about? Requiring special care or taking a lot of time?
14:51 icarito yama: I just registered, my nick is icarito
14:52 dirakx yama: icarito is going to work in some of the activities issues.
14:52 yama silbe: not really right now. We're rushing to get OS 10.1.3-au3 complete before the school holidays end on the 25th. dirakx has been helping. I want this to be solid to last us to the end of the year. Then we can focus on DX.
14:52 silbe yama: ok. dirakx: do you need any help with that work?
14:53 yama icarito: I don't see you on there?
14:53 dirakx silbe: I'd appreciate some help on sugar-core stuff that you guys could know better than I.
14:53 icarito yama: i just now activated the account (from the automated email)
14:54 m_anish dirakx, yea, i've been offline lately, but free to help now
14:54 yama icarito: done
14:54 dirakx m_anish: thanks! :)
14:55 icarito yama: are you targeting new activities to work on both 10.1.3 and dextrose or will you have upgraded by that time?
14:56 yama icarito: I expect it'll take a while to completely migrate. We rely on teachers to perform the flashing, and teachers are very time-poor.
14:56 silbe dirakx: no problem. Let's discuss this in detail after the meeting.
14:56 dirakx silbe: sure.
14:56 yama We need the AU version of DX12 out by January (as I've mentioned in other meetings), because teachers have more time at the start of the school year.
14:57 if we miss the boat on that one, it'll be much harder to get DX12 out there
14:58 m_anish yama, yep, i think we'd need to have a meeting to set the broad roadmap for dx12 platform
14:58 dirakx icarito: some of the new activities (if not all) should be ready for that time.
14:58 yama would love to have a voice chat with some of the main people
14:58 skype or similar
14:58 silbe yama: we'll make sure DX12(-AU) will be ready. Worst case it will lack some features.
14:58 yama main priorities are QA and collaboration
14:59 I prefer quality over quantity. A half-working feature is not worth including.
14:59 silbe collaboration is one of my main worries right now. Fortunately we have several months to continue fixing it...
14:59 yama: +1
15:00 yama Australian schools have money to consider iPads and the like. We're competing with slick, professional products.
15:00 icarito we are slick and professional  :-P
15:00 silbe icarito: money shark? ;)
15:01 yama I think I linked to this last time: https://dev.laptop.org.au/proj[…]es?set_filter=1&f[]=status_id&op[status_id]=o&v[status_id][]=1&f[​]=tracker_id&op[tracker_id]=%3D&v[tracker_id][]=​6&f[]=fixed_version_id&op[fixed_version_id]=%3D&​v[fixed_version_id][]=23&f[]=&c[]=project&c[]=tr​acker&c[]=status&c[]=priority&c[]=subject&c[]=as​signed_to&c[]=updated_on&c[]=cf_3&group_by=
15:01 silbe to get serious, is there anything left to discuss for this topic?
15:01 m_anish yama, ok, dirakx up for a skype this week?
15:01 yama it's our list of priorities for DX12
15:01 dirakx m_anish: ok for me.
15:01 m_anish #link https://dev.laptop.org.au/proj[…]es?set_filter=1&f[]=status_id&op[status_id]=o&v[status_id][]=1&f[​]=tracker_id&op[tracker_id]=%3D&v[tracker_id][]=​6&f[]=fixed_version_id&op[fixed_version_id]=%3D&​v[fixed_version_id][]=23&f[]=&c[]=project&c[]=tr​acker&c[]=status&c[]=priority&c[]=subject&c[]=as​signed_to&c[]=updated_on&c[]=cf_3&group_by=
15:02 silbe #link OLPC-AU priorities list: https://dev.laptop.org.au/proj[…]es?set_filter=1&f[]=status_id&op[status_id]=o&v[status_id][]=1&f[​]=tracker_id&op[tracker_id]=%3D&v[tracker_id][]=​6&f[]=fixed_version_id&op[fixed_version_id]=%3D&​v[fixed_version_id][]=23&f[]=&c[]=project&c[]=tr​acker&c[]=status&c[]=priority&c[]=subject&c[]=as​signed_to&c[]=updated_on&c[]=cf_3&group_by=
15:02 ah, too slow.
15:02 yama m_anish: I have a meeting with dirakx on Tues at 11am my time. I think we can turn that into a group discussion.
15:02 dirakx yama: agree
15:02 m_anish yama, +!
15:02 yama, what's ur TZ w.r.t UTC
15:03 yama m_anish: I'm UTC+10
15:03 Whom should I send the invitations to?
15:04 icarito if new activities is part of the agenda maybe me
15:04 activity bugs don't require a meeting to fix tho
15:05 still great to meet you on voice
15:05 m_anish yama, i'll be there at the meeting
15:05 yama maybe a unified strategy meeting to kick-off, or would that be too messy?
15:05 silbe yama: if I got the calculation right, that would be 01:00 UTC and 03:00 CEST, so I'm afraid you can count me out. I'm having trouble with phone calls anyway; combine that with foreign language and middle of the night...
15:05 yama silbe: yes, 01:00 UTC
15:06 silbe (trouble because of being (slightly) hearing impaired)
15:06 icarito count me in on strategy
15:06 yama silbe: understandable. International meetings are hard to organise
15:07 silbe yama: I'm always amazed at how well it works most of the time even though people are spread over three continents...
15:08 yama I've got dirakx, m_anish, icarito so far. Anyone else?
15:08 dirakx I think no one else. ;).
15:09 yama ok, invitation sent
15:09 silbe #info voice conference with OLPC-AU on 2011-07-12 01:00 UTC. Participants: dirakx, icarito, m_anish, yama.
15:10 yama if people pm me their skype id, I can connect with them
15:10 m_anish silbe, deme, you beat me to it :P
15:10 yama think I just need icarito
15:10 m_anish yama, i think i already have you, but not dirakx icarito
15:11 icarito yama: my skype contact is "sebatustra"
15:11 :-)
15:11 dirakx m_anish: my contact is dirakx
15:11 silbe ok, let's move on to the next topic.
15:11 #topic Report from m_anish
15:12 m_anish silbe, this is gonna be very short :)
15:12 silbe m_anish: to get back in sync, what have you been working on and what are you planning to do next week?
15:12 m_anish: perfect
15:13 m_anish I've been offline mostly for this week due to a family issue :/
15:13 but I'll be working from this week on, so on my agenda are...
15:14 (1) following up with yama, dirakx and figuring out roadmap and workflows for dx12
15:14 (2) meeting with silbe and hopefully erikos to figure out upstreaming our patches
15:15 (3) setting up/refreshing dx12/todo pages on the wiki
15:16 since dx12 platform devel is mostly being done by silbe right now, i'll support him where he needs help
15:17 silbe, <EOT> :P
15:17 silbe m_anish: sounds good. ok, next topic:
15:17 #topic Report from tch
15:18 tch: How's your work on multi-selection and network storage going?
15:20 yama is excited about those things
15:21 silbe tch: are you still with us?
15:21 dogi has quit IRC
15:21 dirakx seems not.
15:21 icarito would would like to discuss WebSDK release and ask the team for feedback
15:23 silbe ok, let's continue with icarito then
15:23 #topic Report from icarito
15:23 icarito so what has been under discussion for a while has resulted in this release
15:24 i need to document it on the wiki this week
15:24 http://people.sugarlabs.org/icarito/WebSDK-1.xo
15:24 #link http://people.sugarlabs.org/icarito/WebSDK-1.xo
15:25 its a bundle that embeds some python web framework stuff with webkit and some javascript libs
15:25 i plan on abstract some of the details off it to make it real simple to build activities with it
15:25 you can leverage any HTML knowlege for the UI of course
15:25 silbe icarito: does it contain binaries (libs)? If so, what distros does it work on?
15:26 icarito silbe: it contains only a webkit binary that it resorts to if it does not find one in the system
15:26 this binary comes from uy builds - took it from AguBrowser :-/
15:26 i mean :-P
15:26 silbe ok, so as long as webkit is installed it should work on any distro. Nice.
15:27 icarito yes also one big advantage is that you could deploy activities build in this fashion as web apps
15:27 to work on any browser
15:27 also collaboration should be cheap to implement as we can tunnel the http (not yet done)
15:28 also I built a small but cool IDE  on top of it
15:28 I'm calling it Webpy
15:28 :-)
15:28 so the bundle is a self-editable hello world
15:28 yama +1 for all of this
15:29 dirakx curiously mozilla is working on webapps activities concept. :).
15:29 icarito later on i can add a "deploy" option to deploy as dist_xo
15:29 currently there are some limitations but I plan on iron them out as I use it
15:30 latest changes were done all within the embedded IDE
15:30 silbe icarito: how does this relate to lucian's SSB / Webified work?
15:31 icarito silbe: I looked at webified, but it seems to only produce bundles as specialized browse activity that points to a website
15:31 silbe: websdk manages the backend as well
15:31 that is the server side runs on the XO laptop
15:31 silbe icarito: interesting (using the embedded IDE). Sounds like I should give it a try some time (as much as I dislike anything browser related :) ).
15:31 icarito this is how integration with journal and collaboration can be achieved
15:32 silbe icarito: ok, thanks for the explanation.
15:32 icarito silbe: the strategy is that there are many more professional web developers than sugar developers so I hope this excites the activity scenario a bit
15:32 silbe icarito: is there anything in particular you'd like to get feedback on or help with?
15:33 icarito: I've heard that song before (Karma)...
15:33 icarito silbe: I'm a bit confused with multiprocess/fork and IPC
15:33 silbe: i need an ipc mechanism i think i'll use dbus
15:34 but i'm confused as to what to use
15:34 the server component runs its on multithreaded process
15:34 silbe icarito: ok, we can chat a bit about that later today. Multithreading / multitasking is surprisingly tricky.
15:34 icarito silbe: yes that's why I decided to plainly fork for this implementation
15:34 luckily web apps are inherently multiprocess friendly
15:35 silbe icarito: even fork() can be tricky, especially if it's plain fork() with execl() directly afterwards...
15:35 icarito no outside execution, only one python file
15:35 silbe icarito: D-Bus in particular is almost impossible to work with except in a single thread / process.
15:36 icarito you can run the server component independently as well (python appservice.py 8080) and then look at the app on http://localhost:8080/
15:37 silbe: what I need it for is I'd like to have a framework wide signal/event mechanism but I realize this is a lot to ask
15:37 silbe icarito: let's discuss approaches later (FTR something with a select() loop is often the easiest to work with)
15:37 icarito thanks silbe
15:38 so guess that's it
15:38 now we can hire designers to do activities :-) lol
15:38 dogi <dogi!~omen@c-65-96-166-32.hsd1.ma.comcast.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:39 icarito </topic><!-- lol -->
15:40 silbe #topic Report from dirakx
15:41 dirakx quick: I've been working on AU activities Issues , resulting in some upstream work and other not upstreamed yet.
15:41 next week should be the same thing, the idea is to fix the mayority of bugs for the next AU release.
15:42 that's it ;).
15:43 silbe dirakx: ok. You were requesting help with Sugar core issues earlier this meeting; we'll follow up on that after the meeting.
15:43 dirakx silbe: +1.
15:43 silbe #topic Report from alsroot
15:43 alsroot does the same
15:44 silbe ok
15:44 anyone else with us? bernie, lucian?
15:44 lucian is lurking
15:45 silbe lucian: anything to report?
15:45 lucian nope, i've been busy with rl
15:45 silbe lucian: ok, fair enough :)
15:45 bernie is probably only with us in thoughts
15:45 yama dirakx: I can bump some of the harder activities problems to a later release (will will probably be DX12). Just let me know.
15:46 silbe #topic Report from silbe
15:46 icarito silbe: unlike karma, I avoid javascript where I can except in the view layer
15:46 dirakx yama: yep I was just going to tell you that, I'll comment on the bugs that would be nice to push to a later release.
15:46 yama: thanks.
15:47 silbe I've been going through the Dextrose 2 patches lately and posted a list of the DX2+3 patches on dextrose@ with some additional information (status, related work).
15:49 The OLPC microformat updater has been ported to Sugar 0.92 and cleaned up quite a bit, taking care of several failure scenarios like disk full and connection loss. Because of that, we'll have to re-test it thoroughly; I'd appreciate help with that. m_anish perhaps?
15:50 m_anish silbe, okay, I'd just need to flash my xo1.5 but its been giving problems lately (thermal shutdown :/) , but I'll figure a way around and let you know
15:50 cjl is now known as cjl_afk
15:50 m_anish silbe, is there a dx3/12 repo with updated rpms or are these just patches for now?
15:51 silbe Last week (> 7 days ago) I've been working on WebDAV interoperation, both exporting the data store (git://git.silbe.org/journal2webdav) and browsing WebDAV collections from within the Journal (GUI).
15:54 WebDAV is looking rather promising, it can even store Sugar metadata natively. Journal2webdav is a rather limited, but working prototype. I didn't get as far with the Journal integration; apart from needing more work there's the issue of gio / gvfs not exposing a sufficiently capable interface to WebDAV properties.
15:54 dirakx nice.
15:55 silbe I've started combining datastore-fuse and journal2webdav code, but no progress there this week.
15:55 m_anish: you might want to check whether the heat spreader is seated properly. I've never had an XO-1.5 shutdown due to thermal issues (though maybe throttled).
15:56 dogi has quit IRC
15:56 silbe m_anish: Check out the dextrose-3 branch in the dextrose repo for the sources, including the URLs to the yum repository.
15:56 m_anish silbe, I checked and it is :/ the xo1.5 is a engineering piece not a production one, maybe there was a known issue back then
15:56 yama silbe, m_anish: yes, possibly a heat spreader issue. I've fixed some XOs by reseating the spreader.
15:56 icarito has quit IRC
15:57 m_anish s/is/isn't/
15:57 silbe m_anish: DX3 won't contain the cleaned-up updater, though, it's too late in the cycle for that.
15:57 m_anish yama, i put some heat conducting grease in there as well, but didn't help
15:57 silbe, ok
15:57 silbe m_anish: too bad the XOs are not IP68, otherwise you could do "water cooling" in the swimming pool. ;)
15:58 icarito <icarito!~urk@190.157.137.22> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:58 yama m_anish: there's a known issue that made XOs wake up while the lid was closed. This has killed many of our XOs.
15:58 m_anish silbe, lol
15:58 yama m_anish: have you tried running the lid switches test in firmware?
15:58 m_anish yama, ok, but it happens in a few mins everytime from a cold start
15:58 icarito silbe: sugar just failed to warn me my battery ran out
15:58 silbe m_anish: that's definitely odd.
15:58 icarito its cool to be a user
15:59 silbe icarito: Sugar doesn't warn you about that. The hardware should warn you and powerd should shut the system down.
15:59 yama m_anish: I have seen this happen a lot before. You might have permanent hardware damage.
16:00 icarito silbe: the hardware that I expect to warn me is the screen
16:01 icarito has quit IRC
16:01 silbe icarito: then the software design doesn't meet your expectations. Feel free to add this topic to the Design Team agenda; especially on non-XOs it would be a good idea.
16:01 does anyone have another topic?
16:02 dirakx afk will  be back in 15 minutes.
16:02 icarito <icarito!~urk@190.157.137.22> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:02 silbe icarito: then the software design doesn't meet your expectations. Feel free to add this topic to the Design Team agenda; especially on non-XOs it would be a good idea.
16:02 icarito: do you have any other topic to discuss?
16:02 icarito nope
16:03 thanks for everything
16:04 yama I'd like to point to our list of issues that we'd like to have fixed for DX12: https://dev.laptop.org.au/proj[…]es?set_filter=1&f[]=fixed_version_id&op[fixed_version_id]=%3D&v​[fixed_version_id][]=23&f[]=&c[]=project&c[]=t​racker&c[]=status&c[]=priority&c[]=subject&c[]​=assigned_to&c[]=updated_on&c[]=cf_3&group_by=
16:04 the objectives I linked to before are the overriding goals, but these are the individual tasks
16:04 silbe #topic OLPC-AU bugs to be fixed within DX-12 time line
16:05 #link https://dev.laptop.org.au/proj[…]es?set_filter=1&f[]=fixed_version_id&op[fixed_version_id]=%3D&v​[fixed_version_id][]=23&f[]=&c[]=project&c[]=t​racker&c[]=status&c[]=priority&c[]=subject&c[]​=assigned_to&c[]=updated_on&c[]=cf_3&group_by=
16:05 wonders whether there's a shorter URL for the same query...
16:06 let's finish then...
16:06 yama the last version of redmine gave nicer urls
16:06 silbe 3
16:07 2
16:07 1
16:07 #endmeeting
16:07 meeting Meeting ended Sat Jul  9 16:07:38 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
16:07 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-09T14:31:36.html
16:07 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-07-09T14:31:36

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