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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2011-06-12 17:36:10

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17:36 meeting Meeting started Sun Jun 12 17:36:10 2011 UTC. The chair is silbe. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
17:36 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
17:36 walterbender bye garycmartin
17:36 silbe #addchair #sugar-meeting freenode garycmartin
17:36 hmm, not quite apparently.
17:36 garycmartin silbe: lol
17:37 silbe garycmartin: thx for joining in & have a nice evening!
17:37 walterbender silbe: my last argument doesn't matter if bundles cannot overwrite the same version number
17:37 while I remember:
17:37 #action change My to the user's nick
17:38 silbe manuq: are you still with us?
17:38 manuq silbe: yes
17:38 garycmartin walterbender: I'm still + on your changes, keeping in mind 'good' rather than stalling for 'perfect', just need to cross the t and dot the i, and polish where we can.
17:39 silbe manuq: what's your take on this?
17:39 garycmartin waves
17:39 manuq thinking
17:39 garycmartin has quit IRC
17:39 silbe (I'm not trying to make you choose a "side", BTW - I'm unsure what the best approach is)
17:41 brb
17:42 manuq silbe: sorry I needed to read the last part of the discussion
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17:43 manuq silbe, walterbender, IMHO I think it's good as a first take to try to mimic the current way of editing activities
17:44 that is, unzip to ~/Activities and hack there
17:45 and avoid changing Sugar
17:47 my two cents :)
17:47 silbe ok, let's do it walters way for now then. Maybe we can teach Sugar to use git for managing the cache. That way we don't need the warning.
17:48 if somebody develops a great IDE with bundle support, nobody prevents the users from using that workflow.
17:48 walterbender silbe: can you please confirm one way or another the current behaviour when you click on a bundle with the same version number as in the cache?
17:49 silbe: also same question but in regard to downgrades?
17:49 silbe: this will inform me re how to best create the bundle on copy
17:50 silbe: I am thinking it best to create a bundle with v 1 and *maybe* a cache with v1.1 ??
17:51 silbe walterbender: jarabe.model.bundleregistry​.BundleRegistry.upgrade():
17:51        elif act.get_activity_version() == bundle.get_activity_version():
17:51            logging.debug('No upgrade needed, same version already installed.')
17:51 walterbender silbe: perfect... so there is no danger in making the bundle and unpacking it into the cache on copy
17:52 silbe walterbender: as long as the version number is the same, nothing happens, yes.
17:52 walterbender #action walter will make a bundle on copy and mv it to the Journal
17:53 silbe: so I think we are cool... as long as I create the bundle, I open the door to the future and as long as I unpack into the cache, I stay compatible with the status quo
17:53 silbe walterbender: sounds fine to me.
17:53 walterbender: thanks for hacking on this!
17:53 manuq walterbender: fine to me too
17:54 walterbender: yes, thankyou!
17:54 walterbender OK. I have 4-5 actions to take for the next pass...
17:54 manuq: if you could work more on the icon overlay, that would be appreciated
17:54 silbe ok, should we do a quick shot at PDF support in Browse and finish the meeting afterwards?
17:54 manuq walterbender: yes!
17:55 walterbender silbe, if you have the stamina, I'd like to add $HOME/Documents to the agenda as well
17:55 silbe walterbender: fine with me. manuq?
17:55 manuq silbe: yeah, I have time
17:56 silbe walterbender: not sure we should discuss it without Gary, though. He had some issues with showing the Journal Volumes toolbar all the time.
17:57 walterbender silbe: OK. it can wait... (although as I explained to Gary, it only appears if you have a $HOME/Documents, which the default builds don't include, I don't believe)
17:58 silbe: you should try the patch and live with it for a week... I'd be curious if you find it useful.
17:58 silbe #topic Browse: Export to PDF
17:59 #link Patch and description: https://patchwork.sugarlabs.org/patch/797/
17:59 #link Rationale: http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]1-May/031543.html
17:59 walterbender: I'm not opposed to it - but let's discuss it in a few minutes. I'd like to get a PDF-enabled Browse out of the door soon.
18:00 walterbender silbe: sure... I am happy with the PDF approach...
18:00 manuq reading
18:00 silbe From the description: "Similar to the way it works for Turtle Art, we expose the functionality as a button in the Activity toolbar, with 'document-save' as icon. There is no way for the user to influence the result (i.e. to set print options)."
18:00 walterbender silbe: that way we can focus all of our printing headaches into one place: PDF files
18:01 silbe I'd like to get some feedback on the toolbar design - the place of the icon (currently: activity (sub)toolbar) and which icon to use (currently the generic 'document-save').
18:01 walterbender the only other approach that I think could work would be to do it in the Journal: copy Journal object to PDF
18:02 I thought at one point (in Write perhaps?) we had a specific icon for PDF save
18:02 looks
18:03 silbe walterbender: that one would still require the activities themselves (resp. sugar-toolkit as a fallback) to implement the PDF support, but would require additional API so the Journal can tell the activity to save a PDF...
18:04 walterbender: ah, a PDF-specific icon would be great.
18:04 walterbender cannot find it... might have been in a long-ago deprecated version
18:04 manuq walterbender: the pdf format has a popular icon
18:05 walterbender: I can sugarize it
18:05 walterbender I think it would be worth making the icon PDF specific
18:06 silbe manuq: isn't that a trademark owned by Adobe?
18:06 manuq pdf is a mark of adobe
18:06 yes
18:06 silbe #link http://www.adobe.com/misc/linking.html
18:06 "You may not use Adobe product icons except under a written license from Adobe."
18:07 I don't think we should promote Adobe software by doing an icon based on their trademarks and asking for permission to use it.
18:07 manuq silbe: so we may need to generalize the icon, and the action, to export to printable format?
18:08 silbe manuq: that would be one option. Or maybe put the letters "PDF" on it. I'll leave it up to you guys; I'm not a designer.
18:08 manuq silbe: yes I don't like the idea of a trademark logo, there is no one in sugar and that's good
18:10 there is no "export document" icon in sugar already, right?
18:11 silbe manuq: I haven't found a specific one, nop. Write uses 'document-save', too.
18:11 manuq silbe: yes
18:11 walterbender manuq: we need a whole series of icons for importing and exporting different document types
18:11 silbe and I guess that's fine - after all the only different is the format it gets saved in.
18:12 manuq walterbender: good
18:12 walterbender, silbe, is it important that the icon reflects the format?
18:12 walterbender if you build them, I will use them :)
18:13 manuq for example in a paint activity, export to png, to jpeg, etc
18:13 walterbender: ok :)
18:13 walterbender manuq: I think in Silbe's use case, the idea that the document is being exported for printing is important.
18:13 for paint, maybe you need that level of granularity
18:14 manuq walterbender: maybe, a pdf can be used to read on screen too
18:14 walterbender in TA, I want to have a export as image; export as HTML, export as LOGO, etc.
18:14 silbe manuq: I think it's important to use an icon that makes it clear that people can use it to export a PDF for printing / archiving. The generic document-save icon doesn't.
18:14 walterbender manuq: good point
18:14 manuq walterbender: and adding a printer to the icon may get the impression that the button would execute a print action
18:15 walterbender, silbe, so we need general export/import icons with the format explicit
18:15 silbe maybe something that gives the impression of taking a snapshot?
18:16 (for PDF)
18:17 manuq silbe, yes, or something to get the impression of a modification of the object that can be handled elswhere (export) of here (import)
18:18 silbe if we define "export" to mean "saving in a format that isn't the preferred form of editing" (ala GPL), the snapshot icon (whatever it is) could be used for all exports, with the specific format given as text in the palette (like we do now with the document-save icon).
18:18 manuq and something different than the copy/paste icons
18:19 silbe ok, we're taking way longer than I anticipated.
18:19 do you agree with the placement of the export-pdf button or can we improve on that, too?
18:19 manuq silbe: ok, I can come with a proposal in the mailing list
18:20 silbe manuq: awesome, thanks!
18:20 #action manuq to prepare a proposal for export icons and present it on sugar-devel
18:21 manuq walterbender: you still with us?
18:21 walterbender +1
18:21 manuq good
18:21 silbe ok. I guess the icon position is fine then.
18:22 manuq silbe: I think yes, we may ask Gary too
18:22 silbe ok
18:22 #topic Show ~/Documents in Journal
18:22 walterbender: you have the stage
18:23 walterbender well, I think we wait until next week so that Gary can chime in, but I encourage you to try it...
18:23 I find that it makes me much more productive.
18:24 and it is a feature that can be turned on/off by the availabily of $HOME/Documents, so it won't be noticed by the typical user.
18:24 manuq silbe: sorry one more thing about pdf export
18:25 maybe the good place for the button is inside the view subtoolbar
18:25 walterbender FWIW, I have gotten very positive feedback from all the teachers I have spoken with.
18:25 manuq sorry edit subtoolbar
18:25 walterbender manuq: if there is room there, it may make some logical sense...
18:26 manuq walterbender: yes, it belongs there
18:26 silbe manuq: interesting point.
18:26 manuq walterbender: and more important, the url text imput is not shortened
18:27 silbe manuq: at least on my system, the length of the activity title seems to have a fixed limit anyway
18:28 manuq silbe: sorry I'm guessing the placement from reading your patch
18:28 silbe manuq: an argument pro putting it into the activity toolbar is that Keep currently lives there, too.
18:28 manuq I didn't have time to apply it
18:29 silbe manuq: take a look at Write, it uses the same position.
18:29 manuq silbe: yes I see now
18:31 silbe walterbender: FWIW, I think your patch is a good interim measure for Sugar <-> Journal integration.
18:31 walterbender: in the long run I think datastore-fuse is the way to go.
18:31 walterbender silbe: thanks... mostly to tch
18:31 silbe: yes... any ETA?
18:33 silbe: FWIW, in the long run, there are very different approaches to view source we may want to take as well...
18:33 silbe walterbender: ETA is infinite right now because no one is using it. With no users I can't justify the time to work on it (except when I need it myself).
18:33 walterbender silbe: if/when we port to GNOME 3.0/Python 3.0, we have many more options
18:34 silbe walterbender: +1 I consider the current View Source an interim measure as well. But I don't have a much better idea, so I'm mostly keeping my mouth shut. ;)
18:34 should we wrap up the meeting here? We can continue to chat afterwards.
18:34 walterbender I am running out of energy
18:34 plus I want to finish up my new activity... almost ready to launch
18:34 manuq needs to see sunday's sky
18:34 silbe walterbender: no solar panel for your XO? ;)
18:35 ok, let's finish for today.
18:35 #endmeeting
18:35 meeting Meeting ended Sun Jun 12 18:35:20 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
18:35 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-12T17:36:10.html
18:35 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-06-12T17:36:10

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