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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2011-05-29 16:09:15

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16:09 meeting Meeting started Sun May 29 16:09:15 2011 UTC. The chair is garycmartin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
16:09 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
16:09 silbe manuq: yeah, since the Design Team members have limited time, our todo list tends to grow out of proportions... :-/
16:09 garycmartin Well welcome all, quick roll call fro the logs?
16:09 erikos is around
16:09 manuq silbe: hope I can help with that
16:10 erikos christianmarcsch, do you know manuel already?
16:10 christianmarcsch erikos: no... hi manuel!
16:10 manuq hi christianmarcsch!
16:10 silbe manuq: looking forward to it. Maybe you could introduce yourself quickly?
16:10 erikos otherwise manuel can introduce himself shortly
16:10 garycmartin hopefully Walter will remember the meeting and join us later ;-)
16:11 manuq ok
16:11 I'm Manuel Quiñones from Argentina
16:11 I'm a programmer and also like the visual arts
16:11 specifically film and animation
16:12 and I'm now working part time for olpc
16:12 since a few days ago
16:12 christianmarcsch manuq: nice to meet you!
16:12 garycmartin manuq: excellent, glad to have you around!
16:12 manuq thankyou
16:12 silbe manuq: Welcome again!
16:13 garycmartin OK let's hit a topic and get started.
16:13 #topic Copy-to option
16:13 erikos: want to give a quick cover story?
16:13 erikos yes
16:14 I want to get finally rid off the 'keep as' option in the activity toolbar
16:15 and we came to the conclusion that a copy to option in the Journal could replace that functionality: http://dev.laptop.org/~erikos/[…]ack-and-white.png
16:15 in the entry palette like in the screenshot above
16:16 or here is how it looks like in the detail view http://dev.laptop.org/~erikos/[…]opy-to-detail.png
16:16 christianmarcsch erikos: i'm not sure if copy to makes sense in all cases
16:17 erikos: i still like "keep", because it doesn't suggest you are making a copy of the activity
16:17 erikos: unless i'm misunderstanding the intent of these screens?
16:18 silbe christianmarcsch: but that's exactly what Keep does (apart from some obscure side effects)
16:18 erikos christianmarcsch, you mean the wording?
16:18 christianmarcsch, or keeping the option in the activity in general?
16:18 christianmarcsch it might be the wording. but the implication should be that you are storing the current activity you are working on, not a copy of it
16:18 making a copy is something you could do later of course
16:18 and you could always have the option, even in the activity toolbar...
16:19 garycmartin erikos: so you propose Copy to -> [journal icon] as the solution for a duplicate feature?
16:19 erikos garycmartin, exactly
16:19 christianmarcsch what about "keep"?
16:19 erikos christianmarcsch, the keeping in the activity itself is automatically
16:20 christianmarcsch erikos: oh ok, that's fine
16:20 erikos christianmarcsch, so the 'keep' button was there to make a duplicate actually
16:20 christianmarcsch erikos: i see, then i'm on-board
16:20 erikos christianmarcsch, ok ;p
16:21 christianmarcsch copy to seems more flexible than duplicate...
16:21 erikos I want to remove the 'keep' option from the activity toolbar since kids think the have to hit that button in order to save their work
16:21 which is wrong of course
16:21 christianmarcsch erikos: sure, that makes sense. better to not even require a "save" button of sorts if we can do it automatically
16:21 garycmartin erikos: Hmmm, Copy to -> [journal icon] for the duplicate object feature sounds somewhat obscure to me.
16:22 erikos christianmarcsch, right
16:22 garycmartin, ok, can you elaborate? other options?
16:22 christianmarcsch the advantage of "copy to" is that it is more flexible though, right? you can copy to journal, usb, etc.
16:22 (i mean relative to duplicate)
16:22 garycmartin erikos: I very much like the Copy to -> clipboard/usb/other mounted volumes design though.
16:22 erikos christianmarcsch, exactly, even Eben had that idea some years ago :) http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:Journal-04.jpeg
16:23 christianmarcsch i think it boils down to a question of vocabulary
16:23 but if we have duplicate, we may also need copy to
16:23 to address other devices
16:24 so copy to is a way to consolidate both
16:24 silbe christianmarcsch: +1
16:25 christianmarcsch so maybe the question is, do we see a need to differentiate both functions?
16:25 garycmartin erikos: I think duplicating an object is quite a different concept than copying an object somewhere. Copy --> to is great, but not I think where the duplicate functionality should be.
16:25 christianmarcsch (duplicate in journal, and sending it to another device)
16:26 erikos garycmartin, to me it works quite ok, where would you put it otherwise, another menu item?
16:26 christianmarcsch maybe we need to work more like: "make copy in..."
16:26 *word
16:26 erikos garycmartin, like a 'duplicate' one ?
16:26 christianmarcsch or "create duplicate in...."
16:27 garycmartin erikos: another menu item (duplicate) was my first thought.
16:27 christianmarcsch garycmartin: personally, i think the concept of making a duplicate and a copy somewhere is the same. it is more a question of how to reference the destination (journal, external device)
16:27 garycmartin christianmarcsch: "create duplicate in..." hmmmmm, that's growing on me ;-)
16:27 alsroot has quit IRC
16:27 satellit_ copy to usb/desktop or a popup selection screen to chose destination of copy
16:28 christianmarcsch garycmartin: :)
16:29 garycmartin christianmarcsch: Yea I think your wording has done it for me, do folks think it would translate ok?
16:29 christianmarcsch the advantage of another menu item for "duplicate" is that it is more direct
16:29 alsroot <alsroot!~alsroot@> has joined #sugar-meeting
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16:29 alsroot <alsroot!~alsroot@pdpc/supporter/active/antilopa-gnu> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:29 erikos garycmartin,  "create duplicate in..." ?
16:29 christianmarcsch this is probably also a case of how often people will need to use this functionality
16:30 garycmartin erikos: yea.
16:30 christianmarcsch i can actually also see a case for keeping them separate, like garycmartin said earlier
16:30 garycmartin christianmarcsch: did I give in too soon ;-)
16:30 christianmarcsch the case is mainly to have a shortcut for "copy to journal", expressed as "duplicate"
16:31 from a usability standpoint, if this is commonly used functionality, it may be helpful to have a separate menu item
16:31 erikos: do we have any observations from how kids use sugar to guide us here?
16:32 garycmartin If we went with "create duplicate in...", would that confuse folks looking to copy an object to external media?
16:32 erikos christianmarcsch, it is hard to say how often the kids use it
16:32 christianmarcsch actually, do we currently even have "send to..."?
16:32 erikos christianmarcsch, so far they have mainly used it for the wrong purpose :/
16:32 christianmarcsch, yes
16:33 christianmarcsch erikos: what does that do?
16:33 erikos: moves the instance over to another device?
16:33 erikos christianmarcsch, send it to another user
16:33 christianmarcsch erikos: but it creates a copy, right?
16:33 silbe christianmarcsch: for now I'd assume it's not that often. We can always revisit this decision later if it turns out learners duplicate their entries all the time.
16:34 erikos christianmarcsch, ahhh, I see where you are heading...
16:34 silbe christianmarcsch: Send To is for sending files over the network (Jabber)
16:34 christianmarcsch maybe another possibility is to consolidate "copy to" and "send to" into "send to", and have a separate "duplicate" item
16:34 CanoeBerry has quit IRC
16:34 erikos christianmarcsch, yes it creates a copy in some way
16:35 CanoeBerry <CanoeBerry!~CanoeBerr@c-66-30-2-16.hsd1.ma.comcast.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:35 christianmarcsch i think to the user, it won't make much of a difference whether something is being copied to a device, the network, or another user's XO
16:35 erikos christianmarcsch, yeah so the palette would be complex
16:36 christianmarcsch erikos: do you have a screen of the send to palette by any chance?
16:36 erikos christianmarcsch, because you would list there all the buddies you friended
16:36 christianmarcsch erikos: i see. maybe devices could be listed first, then friends...?
16:37 it does seem like "duplicate", "copy to" AND "send to" is having a lot of options
16:37 silbe erikos: we could make Send To a submenu of the Copy To menu, like we are going to do for the volumes...
16:37 (with a different name for Send To, of course)
16:37 garycmartin christianmarcsch: it is currently Resume, Resume with, Copy, Send to, View Details, Erase.
16:38 christianmarcsch silbe: possibly, although generally we've been trying to avoid submenus. maybe a modal dialog could pop up?
16:38 garycmartin: right, i meant similar functionality to make a copy of the activity
16:38 erikos christianmarcsch, http://dev.laptop.org/~erikos/copy/send-to.png
16:38 christianmarcsch, this is a current screenshot
16:39 christianmarcsch but is "send to" more about inviting someone into the activity?
16:39 erikos christianmarcsch, no, it really sends the file over
16:39 christianmarcsch, a picture for example
16:39 christianmarcsch erikos: ah i see
16:39 silbe christianmarcsch: a submenu is bad enough, we don't need to make it worse by popping up a modal dialog :-P
16:40 christianmarcsch silbe: yeah, i agree :)
16:40 erikos yeah, no dialog please ;p
16:40 christianmarcsch to go back to the original issue,
16:40 erikos yes
16:41 christianmarcsch i suppose the problem is that "copy/send to" connotes an external entity
16:41 whereas "duplicate" connotes the same location
16:43 i still think "make copy in" or "make duplicate in" or something along those lines *might* work,
16:43 erikos should we try to find a consensus,to move forward?
16:43 christianmarcsch but i'm not 100% sure to be honest
16:43 erikos christianmarcsch, 'make duplicate in' sounds good to me
16:44 christianmarcsch maybe we can shop that proposal around to a few other people and get their reactions
16:44 (like walter)
16:44 erikos christianmarcsch, walter bought in to copy-to on the email thread ;p
16:45 http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]1-May/031322.html
16:45 christianmarcsch another thought:
16:45 what if we only had "duplicate"
16:45 and left it up to the user to drag the activity over to another device?
16:45 garycmartin erikos: what would be you downside to having Copy to -> clipboard/devices and an extra duplicate top level menu item?
16:46 christianmarcsch eliminated "copy to" altogether?
16:46 erikos garycmartin, just that we grow the palette in general, but would be ok with me
16:46 christianmarcsch, dragging is not a good idea for young learners in my opinion
16:47 christianmarcsch, is a very complex physical move
16:47 christianmarcsch, it does work currently, but it is not discoverable neither
16:47 garycmartin christianmarcsch: I think dragging to a device is not so obvious, I often see folks asking how to do that currently.
16:48 christianmarcsch ok
16:49 well,
16:49 silbe erikos: +1, even to for an adult dragging can difficult. Especially on XOs...
16:49 christianmarcsch how about if "copy to" became "move to"
16:49 erikos christianmarcsch, move means you take it away
16:49 silbe christianmarcsch: -1. Move To implies destroying the original.
16:49 christianmarcsch what i'm trying to do is separate the "copy" functionality from the concept of a device (internal or external)
16:49 erikos christianmarcsch, which is not accurate
16:50 christianmarcsch fair enough
16:50 tch <tch!~tch@> has joined #sugar-meeting
16:50 garycmartin How about 'Copy duplicate to...' as another shot at wording?
16:51 christianmarcsch garycmartin: i guess "copy" already implies "duplicate" :)
16:51 erikos I think copy-to is quite good, maybe the only question that remains is whether we make 'duplicate (Journal)' a separate option or not
16:51 christianmarcsch erikos: yes
16:51 garycmartin erikos: Yep
16:52 erikos (and an icon for the clipboard)
16:52 christianmarcsch what does everyone think?
16:52 garycmartin christianmarcsch: I was thinking 'Copy duplicate to...' might help if your local Journal appears in the list (aka duplicate)
16:53 christianmarcsch after having talked this over, i think i may be leaning towards keeping "duplicate (Journal)" as a separate option
16:53 garycmartin erikos: icon for clipboard, yes I have one in mind, I'll try and get one too you in a few days.
16:53 erikos garycmartin, I find 'Copy duplicate to Journal' more confusing than 'Copy to Journal'
16:53 garycmartin erikos: definitely don't use the down arrow ;-)
16:53 silbe +1 from me for the functionality as outlined by erikos. I don't care too much for the exact wording, but would consider a separate Duplicate item unnecessary.
16:53 erikos garycmartin, as christianmarcsch pointed out, copy implies duplicate
16:54 garycmartin, just a placeholder ;p
16:55 ok, let's vote for a separate icon or not:
16:55 does not need a separate icon
16:56 garycmartin +1 for duplicate as a separate menu item
16:56 christianmarcsch +1 for keeping "duplicate"
16:56 manuq +1 for duplicate as a separate item
16:56 christianmarcsch (to me, keeping "duplicate" is the safer choice for now. if we get more data on how kids are using it, we can always consolidate later)
16:57 silbe -1 for a separate duplicate, as mentioned above
16:57 erikos ok, looks like we have 3:2
16:57 silbe 3:2 yes:no, so we'll get a separate duplicate action
16:57 christianmarcsch close call :)
16:58 manuq didn't say any fundaments, through
16:58 erikos exact wording for the item then please:
16:58 silbe manuq's fault ;)
16:58 erikos 'Make duplicate'
16:58 any icon?
16:58 garycmartin erikos yep, perhaps you could ping Walter as well when you catch him?
16:58 christianmarcsch i think simply "Duplicate"
16:58 erikos now the 3 can make something up ;p
16:58 garycmartin christianmarcsch: +1
16:59 erikos garycmartin, sure, I can post a screenshot on the ml-thread and walter can reply
16:59 otherwise, we are good to go, I guess
16:59 christianmarcsch great
17:00 erikos thanks! (even so it took longer for that item then I thought)
17:00 s/then/than
17:00 silbe erikos: it always takes longer. But I'm glad we're making good progress on getting rid of the Keep button.
17:00 garycmartin #agreed add Duplicate as new Journal menu item and Copy to -> Clipboard/Devices
17:00 erikos silbe, yes!
17:01 garycmartin finally....
17:01 silbe I just hope we can discuss the Neighbourhood soon. It takes a lot of effort on the technical side...
17:02 christianmarcsch should we talk about neighborhood next?
17:02 manuq will do a proposal for icons soon
17:02 garycmartin OK, next topic? Should we jump to neighbourhood?
17:02 erikos has to go :/
17:03 silbe how much time do we have left?
17:03 erikos manuq, which icons, the neighborhood ones?
17:03 lucian_ <lucian_!~lucian@78-86-217-168.zone2.bethere.co.uk> has joined #sugar-meeting
17:03 silbe Neighbourhood will take some time...
17:03 manuq erikos: no, sorry, the copy-to/duplicate ones
17:04 garycmartin silbe: well time is officially up, but I can do another 1hr if needed.
17:04 erikos manuq, for the copy-to-clipboard?
17:04 manuq erikos: yes
17:04 garycmartin christianmarcsch: how are you for time?
17:04 christianmarcsch garymartin: still have a few more mins...
17:04 erikos garycmartin, ok, would be good to coordinate with garycmartin - he has some ideas as well
17:04 manuq erikos: yes I will
17:05 erikos manuq, great!
17:05 quick note: for the 'Writing to Journal anytime', I am curreently implementing Christian's mockup
17:05 lucian has quit IRC
17:05 garycmartin OK how about we cover a 'small' topic, UI for taking screenshots?
17:05 erikos http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]view_20110313.pdf
17:06 garycmartin erikos: fab
17:06 silbe garycmartin: since christianmarcsch has only a few minutes, how about discussing Browse first?
17:06 erikos (the second page one)
17:06 christianmarcsch erikos: great!
17:06 garycmartin silbe: is the the Reword warning in Browse topic?
17:07 silbe garycmartin: that one and the Export to/as PDF feature
17:07 erikos 'detail view as modal dialog' - I can give you feedback on that by mail
17:07 christianmarcsch, I guess I can cc you on the mail directly since you unlikely will read all sugar-devel, right?
17:07 garycmartin #topic Reword warning in Browse when stopping while there are downloads happening in the background
17:07 silbe garycmartin: once those two are decided on, I can push out a new Browse release.
17:07 christianmarcsch erikos: thanks, that would be great!
17:08 erikos christianmarcsch, ok, nice!
17:08 garycmartin silbe: could you give a quick summary of the mail thread?
17:08 erikos thanks everyone - and hopefully see you soon again!
17:08 erikos has quit IRC
17:09 silbe erikos, christianmarcsch: remember there's a topic filter for sugar-devel. Put [DESIGN] into the subject for all design related mails. Then you can configure your sugar-devel subscription to only forward you design related mails.
17:09 lucian <lucian!~lucian@78-86-217-168.zone2.bethere.co.uk> has joined #sugar-meeting
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17:11 silbe Browse displays a warning if you try to Stop it while there are still downloads happening in the background
17:12 Currently the wording is "Cancel" to not Stop Browse and "Stop" to abort all pending downloads (removing them from the Journal) and Stopping Browse.
17:13 The suggestion from Rafael was to use "Continue Download" + "Cancel Download"
17:13 CanoeBerry has quit IRC
17:15 silbe My suggestion was "Continue Download" + "Stop Download", but only until I discovered that Browse does remove the pending downloads from the Journal.
17:15 manuq I think "continue download" and "cancel download" does not imply if the activity is going to be closed or keep open
17:15 silbe so there's actually two issues to discuss: 1. the confusing wording, 2. whether we should remove partial downloads from the Journal. #2 has consequences for #1.
17:17 garycmartin silbe: "Continue Download" instead of "Cancel" seems good - can we just leave "Stop" as it is (as it)? Do you have the message text to hand that goes with those buttons?
17:17 silbe FWIW, there's currently no way to resume partial downloads and adding support for that might require some design changes first
17:18 garycmartin: the only text besides the button labels is: "Download in progress" (title) and "Stopping now will cancel your download" (message)
17:19 garycmartin: if we change to message to imply / spell out that downloads will be destroyed (removed from the Journal), keeping "Stop" is fine with me.
17:20 garycmartin silbe: if we don't allow resuming partial downloads at the moment, then we should delete them. If in the future we can add that feature (nice to have), then we should leave partial downloads (and make sure the Journal shows they are partial downloads clearly)
17:20 silbe garycmartin: the Journal already has indications for partial downloads (progress bar)
17:20 *indicators
17:21 garycmartin: ok, then we only have to decide on the wording.
17:21 garycmartin thinks
17:23 silbe garycmartin: we can also continue this topic on the ML if you prefer. I think we're all on the same line now, so we don't benefit from synchronous communication.
17:23 garycmartin How about "Stopping now will erase your download"
17:24 or "Stopping now will remove your download"
17:24 silbe garycmartin: sounds good to me. we should take care of the plural forms, but thats more of a technical issue
17:25 garycmartin: we say Erase in the Journal, so I'd prefer it over Remove.
17:25 garycmartin Cheat with "download/s" text?
17:26 silbe: Yes erase would be my first choice for consistency.
17:26 silbe garycmartin: we could use "download(s)", but I don't know enough about translations to be sure it translates well enough into other languages.
17:27 garycmartin silbe: yes, fair point, some plurals will be completely different words.
17:27 christianmarcsch: ping, you still with us?
17:28 christianmarcsch graymartin: sorry, yes
17:28 had to step to away for a few
17:32 garycmartin So to summarise I think we originally had in Browse "Download in progress", "Stopping now will cancel your download", (Cancel) (Stop)
17:33 And we're now at "Download in progress", "Stopping now will erase your download", (Continue Download) (Stop)
17:33 silbe christianmarcsch: Short summary: Browse currently has a warning "Download in progress" "Stopping now will cancel your download" (Cancel) (Stop). Current suggestion is to change it to read "Download in progress" "Stopping now will remove your download [approp. plural form]" (Continue Download) (Stop)
17:33 bah, garycmartin is too fast ;)
17:34 christianmarcsch thanks
17:34 silbe and his text is correct: s/remove/erase/
17:34 christianmarcsch i think the proposal sounds fine! :)
17:34 silbe great!
17:35 manuq + 1 for me
17:35 christianmarcsch +1
17:35 garycmartin ...where clicking (Stop) stops Browse and erases the partial download in the Journal (because we don't support resuming partial downloads yet)
17:36 #agreed Browse stop warning "Download in progress", "Stopping now will erase your download", (Continue Download) (Stop)
17:37 silbe should we tackle the PDF one now or do that one via email?
17:37 christianmarcsch silbe: email may be better for now...
17:37 silbe My hope is that we only need to tweak details like which icon to use and whether to colour it...
17:37 christianmarcsch also, i can meet again tomorrow (same time) if that works for people
17:38 garycmartin looks at his calander
17:38 silbe christianmarcsch: ok, let's do it via email. I won't have time for a meeting until Thursday I'm afraid.
17:39 garycmartin christianmarcsch: yea I could make it if others can.
17:39 christianmarcsch: OK perhaps we should try and continue via email is silbe can't make it.
17:40 christianmarcsch garycmartin: sounds good for now
17:40 and we can meet again next weekend
17:40 silbe but if you'd like to meet tomorrow and discuss toolbars I wouldn't mind.
17:40 garycmartin Lets wrap up for today, same time nextweek?
17:40 silbe garycmartin: +1
17:41 christianmarcsch perfect
17:41 thanks all
17:41 silbe thanks everyone for a rather productive meeting!
17:41 manuq garycmartin: I will send you an email about the copy-to clipboard icon
17:41 garycmartin silbe: I'm sure you'll agree I should be releasing Clock, Calculate, Labyrinth (if I am allowed still), Moon, rather than meeting ;-)
17:41 manuq: thanks.
17:42 silbe garycmartin: I can't judge that - me might be blocking others if they're waiting for feedback on their new-style toolbar designs...
17:42 garycmartin manuq: And thanks for the Clock patches. I needed to rework the new toolbars patch as it breaks older version of Sugar (at least 0.88)
17:42 silbe s/me/we/
17:43 garycmartin: but releasing new versions of several activities sounds promising nevertheless :)
17:44 garycmartin manuq: oh, and getting a Traceback on first launch that I need to fix (though it doesn't crash Clock)
17:44 silbe: ;-)
17:45 OK, well thanks everyone. We'll try again for same time next week. Until then we can try to carry on with the various design email threads!
17:45 #endmeeting
17:45 meeting Meeting ended Sun May 29 17:45:26 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
17:45 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-29T16:09:15.html
17:45 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-05-29T16:09:15

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