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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2011-04-10 14:41:44

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14:41 meeting Meeting started Sun Apr 10 14:41:44 2011 UTC. The chair is garycmartin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:41 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
14:42 garycmartin OK, diving right in.
14:43 OK, so getting toolbar images for resource/reference use, need to pick a standard resolution 1200x900 or 1024x768, PNG format is good for me, screen grab of each toolbar in an activity, cropped to just show the toolbar.
14:44 walterbender +1
14:44 garycmartin A core 10 or 20 activitirities would be a good start for a reference.
14:44 walterbender how do we divy up the work?
14:45 garycmartin While we are talking toolbar icons, there are some cases where developers have used sugar-artwork icons that are in the wrong named category and designed for non toolbar placement.
14:46 sv <sv!be874490@gateway/web/freenode/ip.190.135.68.144> has joined #sugar-meeting
14:46 sv nick/ seba
14:47 garycmartin So we have some icons that are now being used for the wrong placement (notification icons used for toolbar buttons, system search being used as a toolbar button, etc).
14:48 alsroot is now known as alsroot_away
14:49 sv has quit IRC
14:50 garycmartin walterbender: re: divvy up... How about it time, if you're willing ;-) you have 3 days to email me a bunch of toolbar screen grabs that you have easy access to. Then once I get your email I'll grab some more to fill in the gaps. By next meeting we can have a contact sheet to look at.
14:50 (in time)
14:50 alsroot_away is now known as alsroot
14:50 walterbender garycmartin: will do
14:51 garycmartin walterbender: what res do you run your emulator at?
14:51 walterbender garycmartin: I think the root cause of the misuse is that we are lacking proper icons for common functions
14:52 garycmartin: I typically run my vm at 1024x768
14:52 garycmartin or XO res is fine if you have one to hand.
14:52 svallejo <svallejo!be874490@gateway/web/freenode/ip.190.135.68.144> has joined #sugar-meeting
14:54 garycmartin #action walterbender to grab some toolbar screen shots @ 1024x768 and email them to garycmartin mid week, who will try to fill in gaps/get more and make a contact sheet of them all for resource/reference
14:55 walterbender garycmartin: be nice to somehow correlate the buttons with their intended actions too...
14:56 garycmartin: e.g., 'new game', 'save to Journal'...
14:56 not sure it will be apparent from just looking.
14:56 but it is a start
14:57 garycmartin walterbender: re lack of proper icons, also seems a number of icons should be duplicated in sugar-artwork with different names to future proof us from design changes. I was suprised to find the Journal and Browse were all using the favourite-emblem badge for their toolbar ;-)
14:57 walterbender good point
15:00 silbe garycmartin: apropos Journal icons, did you have some time to work on the Backup / Restore ones?
15:00 SeanDaly <SeanDaly!~seandaly@92.90.16.35> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:01 garycmartin walterbender: Regarding the create/modify activity icon discussions, I've been thinking it leaks into the idea of preferences/options/config depending how flexible the create/modify features are. Example, Abacus seems more like a set of preferences for customising the abacus, where as Memorize goes much deeper in creative flexibility.
15:02 silbe: sorry, no. Some what sidelined, but I did dig out the folder with the previous work, sitting on my desktop awaiting action ;-)
15:02 walterbender garycmartin: it seems to be configure the activity (Abacus), create new content for the activity (Memorize), modify the activity itself (Turtle Art)
15:04 silbe garycmartin: thanks! It's not high priority, but I feel a bit bad about the current state of Backup / Restore. They're not as "user-friendly" as I'd like them to be. Better icons would at least make them look a tad nicer. ;)
15:05 garycmartin walterbender: I wonder which, or how many of these would fit a standard icon to use in all cases. The activity icon with a sparkle motif in one corner seems like the correct 'New content" but that would be activity specific (something to describe in the HIG, and perhaps provide a template for).
15:05 jt4sugar <jt4sugar!~AndChat@173-118-57-47.pools.spcsdns.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:05 garycmartin silbe: Agreed, I'll try and shimmy them up my todo list.
15:06 silbe garycmartin: great!
15:06 geirea <geirea!be86373c@gateway/web/freenode/ip.190.134.55.60> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:07 walterbender is not sure which icon you mean... the one that looks like the Etoy's icon? Doesn't mean much to me.
15:07 jt4sugar Hi sorry to interupt did design start at 10amest or at 11
15:07 garycmartin walterbender: can't remember if I posted a link to Memorize with the cog icon for create/modify toolbar.
15:07 #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/U[…]misation_features
15:08 walterbender: in that mockup, to the right of the cog is the memorize activity icon with a spark in the bottom right corner.
15:10 walterbender: I've used it in this mockup to start playing a new game, not as erase all quiz content and let me build a new set of questions, something else to worry about confusing...
15:12 jt4sugar: Hi! Sorry we started 30min early as walterbender needs to leave soon, but we can back track if needed. Officially we should have started 11min ago.
15:14 jt4sugar We were meeting after yours just hadnt heard back from Christian exact time would be 12est then-thanks
15:16 garycmartin walterbender: how do you feel about your TA/TB import and export icon use (the send to friend style design)? Gonzalo would seem to dislike re-using that metaphor.
15:16 jt4sugar has quit IRC
15:17 walterbender garycmartin: I am not married to them... but they were the best of what we had to choose from at the moment
15:17 JT_4sugar <JT_4sugar!~JT@68-242-165-77.pools.spcsdns.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:18 igod <igod!~igod@32.142.177.44> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:18 walterbender garycmartin: I have a secondary problem too: sometimes I am loading from the Journal... sometimes from the filesystem
15:18 alsroot is now known as alsroot_away
15:18 igod = dogi on the phone ...
15:18 garycmartin walterbender: Oooh, what's the filesystem case? Is this to do with running in Gnome desktop?
15:19 walterbender http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:TAimport.png is an example
15:19 loading sample code
15:19 alsroot_away is now known as alsroot
15:19 garycmartin walterbender: loading sample code NOT from the Journal?
15:20 walterbender yes
15:20 garycmartin tut, tut... ;-)
15:20 walterbender we never resolved that issue
15:20 silbe garycmartin: have we decided on what to do with activity-shipped example entries yet?
15:20 or distro shipped even
15:21 christianmarcsch <christianmarcsch!~christian@cpe-24-193-242-220.nyc.res.rr.com> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:21 garycmartin walterbender: how about considering a Journal feature that allows importing/exporting filesystem objects (would be considered an advanced feature). This way we solve it for all activities.
15:23 this goes back to discussions years back about allowing the Journal to browse the base FS.
15:23 walterbender garycmartin: I am not sure how it would work...
15:23 garycmartin: but meanwhile, I needed something for TA/TB.
15:23 garycmartin walterbender: what is your use case where the Sugar Journal is not good enough?
15:24 walterbender garycmartin: at one point I copied objects into the Journal on install, but that generated spam. Now I only copy the objects in once they have been used.
15:25 garycmartin: with TA, I'd be creating on the order of 50 new objects in your Journal that you didn't create yourself... verboden, I thought
15:25 silbe garycmartin: we already have that: the Journal view for storage media, copy-to-journal, copy-from-journal. Are you talking about showing a view for the root fs?
15:25 walterbender silbe: so the idea would be to copy the same to the Journal from some Journal interface, not from the activity itself?
15:26 garycmartin walterbender: sorry, do these icons just add the stubb python code into the Journal, or do they raise a fs browser of some kind?
15:26 christianmarcsch has quit IRC
15:26 silbe walterbender: don't know. I just listed what's already then, to get a clearer view on what garycmartin might want to do.
15:26 s/then/there/
15:26 walterbender garycmartin: I have two directories full of sample code: python customization code and sample projects
15:27 garycmartin: when you select the python icon with the arrow on the toolbar (http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/File:TAimport.png) you get a filesystem chooser to select Python code
15:28 once you select it, it is loaded into your program and into the Journal
15:28 same with the TA project code
15:28 garycmartin walterbender: could you net present these as a set of projects/templates within TA to choose from (like Pippy has it's side bar tree view, and Memorize has it's drop down list of sample quiz games)?
15:28 (net -> not)
15:29 walterbender garycmartin: I suppose I could, but frankly, I find those interfaces much more clumsy than a chooser.
15:29 and they don't make it any easier for customization by the end user
15:30 garycmartin another example EToys and it's startup 'pick a project or start a new one' type thing.
15:30 walterbender garycmartin: I could do something more visual, like that...
15:32 garycmartin: I'll still need a toolbar icon to invoke it :)
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15:35 garycmartin silbe: re Journal view for storage media, yes that was just the kind of flow I was thinking could work for folks who need to pull in data form non Journal workflows (nice for VM users as well). Would require a widget for getting to the 'root fs' as you put it, needs some thought not to be scary and overcomplicate the Journal UI (i.e. I'd not want to show the bottom volume bar all the time just so local volume/s could be accessed).
15:35 walterbender garycmartin: I'll have to think about it and make some sketches
15:36 garycmartin walterbender: I could go for a standard toolbar visual for invoking a gallery of demos/templates! ;-)
15:36 walterbender garycmartin: not sure why it would be so different from a local volume button along side the removeable volume buttons that appear
15:37 garycmartin: +1 to the new visual (regardless of how the activity invokes it)
15:37 garycmartin walterbender: re 'not sure why it would be so different from...' No I agree, it should not be so different, but eating that bottom area of the Journal with a tray all the time just to show root fs seems way too nerdy/hacky for 99.9 of our target users.
15:38 silbe garycmartin: we should should show it the same way we show the other file system (storage media) views. Using a secondary toolbar (at the top) instead of the bottom toolbar might be an idea if you don't want it to take up space all the time.
15:39 walterbender garycmartin: not so sure... perhaps it wouldn't be there for XO users without GNOME switching enabled, but I think most VM users would want it
15:39 dogi_ <dogi_!~dogi@c-65-96-166-32.hsd1.ma.comcast.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:40 garycmartin #action mockup some ideas on a system standard Activity toolbar visual for raising a gallery of demo/template projects (e.g TA/TB, Memorize, EToys, Abacus).
15:41 walterbender: most VM users are not our target users... They are us nerds, geeks, hackers.
15:41 dogi_ garycmartin, +1
15:41 walterbender garycmartin: not sure about that down the road... might be the way lots of kids get access... easier than SoaS
15:41 silbe garycmartin: not trying to divert the discussion, but we should think a bit more about the examples "problem" some time. I don't think any of the existing solutions (copy entries on first start, use file system chooser, show side bar) is particularly elegant. Maybe we should investigate the Action View vs. Object View split of the HIG a bit more and work on that. E.g. we'd show the individual examples in the Object View and an "added example
15:41 dogi_ and hopefully some knowledged teachers
15:42 walterbender silbe: yes... I agree that the current set of options for examples are all less than satisfactory
15:44 has to run...
15:45 silbe walterbender: cu
15:47 garycmartin silbe: the 'examples problem' would be a good one to resolve a standard for, a number of activities try to do this in different ways. If only we had a chooser that showed nice (developer selected) thumbnails of examples/projects/demos/content. I guess the other option I missed is the Record/Browse tray UI. This could make a rather nice standard way to select both Journal objects (as in Record), and locally baked in objects/data...
15:48 waves to walterbender
15:48 alsroot is now known as alsroot_away
15:49 alsroot_away is now known as alsroot
15:49 garycmartin silbe: did you see Christian appear and then disappear again a while back?
15:50 silbe garycmartin: an Object Chooser lookalike for in-activity use (accessing a local file system directory instead of the Journal) might be another idea, yep.
15:50 garycmartin: yes, I did. 15:21 - 15:26 UTC.
15:51 maybe he got called away?
15:51 garycmartin silbe: thanks, just worried my irc connection might have been split.
15:52 cjl <cjl!~chatzilla@c-98-204-202-184.hsd1.md.comcast.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:54 silbe garycmartin: should we finish the meeting?
15:55 garycmartin #action consider implications of allowing access to root fs via the Journal bottom tray (as is now done for external devices)
15:55 silbe: Guess so, there is another meeting next up I think.
15:56 Same time, same place next week!
15:56 silbe garycmartin: +1
15:56 garycmartin #endmeeting
15:56 meeting Meeting ended Sun Apr 10 15:56:48 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
15:56 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-10T14:41:44.html
15:56 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-04-10T14:41:44

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