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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2011-03-20 20:03:00

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20:03 meeting Meeting started Sun Mar 20 20:03:00 2011 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:03 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
20:03 silbe garycmartin: thanks, see you next week!
20:03 garycmartin Thanks all, sorry I have to dash, will look at the log!
20:03 garycmartin has quit IRC
20:03 silbe walterbender: can you set the topic, please?
20:03 walterbender #info gary had to leave... but we will continue for one more topic
20:04 #topic What date should the activities list view show for pre-installed activities?
20:04 silbe #link http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/10487 OLPC#10487: Activity Installation time wrong (activity list view)
20:04 #link http://lists.laptop.org/piperm[…]thread.html#31544 Patch discussion: Do not adjust dates of activities
20:05 walterbender IMHO, the relevant date is the Activity modification date... it tells the user how recent a version they are running.
20:05 and if they modify the activity themselves, it highlights that fact too
20:06 silbe walterbender: but what is the "modification date" for activities that came with the OS image and were neither started nor modified yet?
20:06 christianmarcsch walterbender: +1
20:06 silbe: in that case, wouldn't we use the date of installation?
20:07 silbe christianmarcsch: that's exactly the question
20:07 christianmarcsch sllbe: i think that would make sense. we'd seed them with the date of installation, and override once they have been instantiated
20:07 walterbender silbe: is there no way to include the modification date in the build?
20:09 m_anish_afk is now known as m_anish
20:09 silbe The options I can think of are: 1. use date of last modification from source tarball, 2. use time of OS image build, 3. use time of first Sugar start-up, 4. use some artificial time in the past. Current OLPC implement the last option AFAIK.
20:10 s/AFAIK// (just checked again)
20:10 walterbender I prefer #1
20:12 and it would be consistant
20:13 christianmarcsch wouldn't #2 make more sense for the user though?
20:13 maybe it's not totally consistent internally, but to the user the only thing that matters is when they started using the system
20:13 walterbender christianmarcsch: why?
20:14 christianmarcsch: I would think that they'd want to know the version of TA they were running was 2-years old on their new release....
20:15 christianmarcsch walterbender: i suppose you are right
20:15 walterbender so they could berate the developer to get off the stick...
20:15 christianmarcsch walterbender: :)
20:15 but
20:16 once someone starts using the activity, would it switch to the date of last instantiation?
20:16 walterbender christianmarcsch: shouldn't...
20:16 christianmarcsch walterbender: ok, then it makes sense
20:16 walterbender running an activity doesn't update the activity, just the journal instance
20:17 christianmarcsch walterbender: perfect, ok. just needed to understand that.
20:18 walterbender silbe: correct me if I am wrong, but we are talking about the date of the activities shown in the list view
20:18 silbe walterbender: exactly. List View of the Home View.
20:19 walterbender christianmarcsch: this is what determines the order in the circle/spiral or the list in the list view
20:20 christianmarcsch walterbender: right, that makes sense
20:20 walterbender thinks the list view should show most recent first, because those are the ones you'd likely be working on...
20:21 silbe: is there anything re #1 that is controversial (or a headache technically?)
20:22 silbe walterbender: not to me :) Check http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/10487 for other opinions
20:22 walterbender: the technical side of things is solvable
20:23 walterbender silbe: I didn't understand the issue with Gary's side-effect.
20:23 silbe we just need to agree on how it _should_ work, and I'll take care of making Sugar _do_ work like it
20:23 walterbender silbe: if the activity is touched, presumably it is for a reason
20:24 silbe walterbender: I'll try to figure out where and maybe why it's touched. Off the top of my head I don't see a technical reason to do so.
20:24 walterbender silbe: seems like there was *almost* consensus on #1 in the ticket (as I recall)
20:25 silbe: with a few people wanting some additional info available (which I think is needless complexity)
20:25 silbe walterbender: iff we want to provide additional information, we should handle that as a separate topic IMO
20:26 walterbender silbe: agreed
20:26 silbe (I too think it's too complex for the list view; at this point we can just refer users to the Terminal)
20:26 walterbender silbe: re Gary's side effect, as an activity developer, I like it... the things I am working on show up at the start of my spiral.
20:27 silbe walterbender: what exactly do you call "Gary's side effect"? That an activity gets sorted in front if you just use it, without modifying it?
20:28 walterbender: if you modify the activity, #1 would show it at the top (list view) / inner-most (spiral)
20:29 walterbender silbe: we need clarification, but he describes "when you use an activity the folder gets touched" but is this true?
20:29 silbe tries
20:30 walterbender has never seen that behavior
20:30 silbe oh, I had the sort order reversed in my mind it seems: the list view currently shows the oldest activity first
20:31 walterbender silbe: yes... which I think is the opposite of what we want... but the oldest is on the outside of the spiral, which I think is correct.
20:32 silbe walterbender: confirmed, it does get touched.
20:32 walterbender silbe: but running an activity has no impact on the order as far as I know
20:32 silbe ???
20:32 satellit_afk is now known as satellit_
20:33 walterbender silbe: is that modification time or access time?
20:33 silbe walterbender: it gets even stranger: in the list view, the just-run activity gets sorted somewhere in the middle (after a Sugar restart)
20:34 walterbender: ls uses mtime by default
20:34 walterbender: (i.e. mtime gets changed)
20:34 walterbender silbe: hmm. I cannot say I ever noticed that before. It is a bug.
20:35 why does running an activity modify the directory?
20:35 silbe walterbender: I guess we should just agree on how it's supposed to behave and fix Sugar so it does behave the newly specified way.
20:35 The current behaviour definitely is a bug. I can't imagine any spec saying "sort a recently-run activity in the middle" ;)
20:35 walterbender silbe: it makes no sense for activities to be modified when they are run
20:35 silbe walterbender: +1
20:35 satellit_ any ideas about Give priority to last installed activity by date installed and not version number?
20:36 silbe satellit_: the activities list view doesn't look like it's sorted by version number
20:37 walterbender satellit_: how do you have both at once? two instances of the same activity? Sugar doesn't support that, does it?
20:37 satellit_ but browse-120 from updates precludes running browse-119.xo installed later
20:37 walterbender satellit_: does it prevent running or installation?
20:37 silbe we sort it by internal order of the bundle registry (I'm sure about that part, filed a bug about it some months ago). IIRC the internal order of the bundle registry is based on the activity mtime...
20:38 satellit_ so an update may install a non-fuctioning non removable activity
20:38 silbe satellit_: that's a separate issue.
20:38 satellit_ prevents running .xo of earlier version
20:38 walterbender satellit_: yeah... but that is a different topic, I think
20:38 satellit_ ok
20:38 silbe satellit_: we should talk about that some time as well, but not now.
20:39 walterbender silbe: do we have consensus re modification time and that running an activity shouldn't modify the activity???
20:39 silbe: any idea why the latter is happening?
20:39 silbe walterbender: +1 from me. christianmarcsch?
20:39 walterbender: not yet, but I'll figure it out.
20:39 christianmarcsch silbe: +1
20:39 walterbender looks to see what was touched in Pippy
20:40 silbe ok, nice. Can we agree on it? Gary can still chime in via email and we can reconsider if necessary.
20:40 walterbender silbe: ah.. it is the .pyc files of course
20:41 wonders if there is a way to ignore those.
20:42 silbe walterbender: ah, I see. There are ways to either avoid that or at least ignore it, though.
20:42 walterbender silbe: I think we should ignore them... it is misleading
20:42 wonders how, without having to walk through the entire tree
20:43 silbe do we have consensus on how it should work?
20:44 walterbender yes
20:45 silbe: I will update the ticket with a pointer to this discussion.
20:45 silbe walterbender: thanks. Can you add a #agree <description of consensus> so it turns up in the minutes, please? (#agreed is restricted to the chair)
20:46 s/#agree/#agreed/
20:46 walterbender silbe:  or not, because I cannot write to tickets at OLPC anymore :(
20:46 #agreed that modification date is the proper date to list and sort on
20:46 silbe walterbender: you should have received a token via email when you logged in.
20:47 christianmarcsch walterbender, silbe: i will need to leave soon--were there any other issues you wanted to go over?
20:47 silbe walterbender: they recently enabled email address verification to counter spam
20:47 walterbender #agreed that we should fix the "bug" that considers .pyc file generation a modification to an activity
20:47 silbe: yes... and I never get the verification in my email...
20:47 silbe christianmarcsch: not for today. We already took much more time than I wanted.
20:47 walterbender: :-/ spam folder?
20:48 walterbender christianmarcsch, silbe: next week, same time...
20:48 looked there... will look again.
20:48 christianmarcsch sounds great. see you next week!
20:48 silbe walterbender: thx! (for the #agreed's)
20:48 christianmarcsch has quit IRC
20:48 silbe thanks everybody for joining, see you next week!
20:48 walterbender silbe: not in my spam folder :P
20:48 OK. CU
20:48 #end-meeting
20:48 meeting Meeting ended Sun Mar 20 20:48:49 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
20:48 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-20T20:03:00.html
20:48 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-03-20T20:03:00

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