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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2011-03-20 19:01:02

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19:01 meeting Meeting started Sun Mar 20 19:01:02 2011 UTC. The chair is garycmartin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:01 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
19:01 christianmarcsch apparently so
19:01 silbe let's hope he joins us later
19:01 we could postpone the first one or two agenda items
19:01 garycmartin Yes, hopefully Walter will manage to catch us later.
19:03 #topic A standard tool icon for create-new/modify type Activity functionality
19:05 I was hoping to get a few mockup variations before today, but the general gist is that to hook up with the Activity toolbar work that's happening it would be good to have a standard toolbar icon for customising activities.
19:05 christianmarcsch garycmartin: what sort of customizations?
19:06 garycmartin Two examples are Memorize, and Abacus.
19:07 Where both activities support modification/customisation (new quiz tiles, new abacus number bases/layouts).
19:07 christianmarcsch garycmartin: makes sense.
19:08 garycmartin: perhaps a gear? :)
19:08 garycmartin For Abacus, Walter used the cog icon (same as we use for view source)
19:08 christianmarcsch garycmartin: right
19:09 CanoeBerry has quit IRC
19:09 garycmartin Memorize currently has a create tab, no icon as of yet.
19:09 christianmarcsch garymartin: sounds like we need to differentiate
19:10 garycmartin: i'd still say a gear/cog feels appropriate. we could find a different icon for view source, maybe something that resembles a terminal window
19:10 garycmartin christianmarcsch: yes it should be different from the view source cog, but the idea is similar (a 'low floor' version is needed)
19:12 christianmarcsch: I had also been experimenting with the existing edit menu (scissors icon), but I think folks feel there are too many con's regarding overloading what traditional computer users think of the edit menu features.
19:12 #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/U[…]e_Toolbar_Mockups
19:14 christianmarcsch garycmartin: true, though i can see how you arrived there
19:14 garycmartin Here's some category words to think on edit/modify/customize/create that we might want the icon to visualise.
19:15 christianmarcsch so this would live in the activity tab?
19:15 how about the activity icon with a gear overlaid?
19:16 garycmartin christianmarcsch: yes, I quite like that idea, but it could get very fussy badging some activity icons. It might also be confusing if there is another very similar activity icon in the primary toolbar.
19:17 christianmarcsch garycmartin: yeah, i see the point about the dual gear icons. though the badge we overlay could also be a different symbol...
19:18 garycmartin: in any case a badge actually seems appropriate, since it is a modifier to the existing activity
19:19 garycmartin christianmarcsch: true.
19:19 Anyone have any other thoughts on an icon?
19:21 For create/new the activity icon with a star badge works quite well (a spark rather than a favourite like 5 point star)
19:22 christianmarcsch yes, i like that
19:22 silbe garycmartin: nop, sorry.
19:23 christianmarcsch preferences is tough
19:23 i thought of perhaps overlaying an XO badge
19:23 to show that it is personalized
19:23 garycmartin Modify seems to usually be a pen/pencil overlaid on a document (I'm googling icon images)
19:24 Customize is usually the spanner or cog type icon
19:25 christianmarcsch garycmartin: so how about we change view source?
19:26 garycmartin: doesn't view source invoke the terminal anyway? then why not just use the terminal icon?
19:26 garycmartin christianmarcsch: A downside to using a badge over an activity icon is that it's tougher to reuse, ideally we want a single icon for sugar-artwork.
19:27 christianmarcsch garycmartin: so terminal icon for view source, and the cog for customize
19:27 garycmartin christianmarcsch: No view source opens a syntax aware source viewer.
19:27 christianmarcsch garycmartin: does the source viewer have an activity icon?
19:28 garycmartin christianmarcsch: I was hoping view source would also allow source editing (apparently the view is a standard bit of gtk that easily edits text, just that we need to think through the implications of enabling editing).
19:29 christianmarcsch for view source, i could see a symbol that references a text file, a written document, rather than the cog
19:30 garycmartin christianmarcsch: the view source has at least one activity icon, but also potentially a second in monochrome if it also supports viewing the activities content as source (think Browse viewing the html, Turtle Art viewing the LOGO source).
19:32 christianmarcsch: let me upload a view source screen shot for you, hang on...
19:35 dfarning_afk is now known as dfarning
19:35 walterbender <walterbender!~webchat@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:37 silbe garycmartin: I'd prefer a way to open the source in a full-screen editor rather than editing it in the small View Source window. But maybe the way to go is making View Source full-screen instead of making the editor separate.
19:37 walterbender: Welcome!
19:38 garycmartin silbe: we lose that context again... You really don't like those modal like views do you ;-)
19:38 #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]browse_source.png
19:39 silbe walterbender: The log is at http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]ng/meetings/today . We've postponed the first two agenda items until you arrived.
19:39 garycmartin: not in general, and definitely not on a small screen like the XO.
19:39 garycmartin #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]stance_source.png
19:40 silbe garycmartin: source code editing in full-screen is bad enough on the XO. If you make the window significantly smaller like we do for modal dialogs, it's a PITA.
19:40 garycmartin #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]bundle_source.png
19:40 walterbender checks the backlog and wonders why view source doesn't launch Pippy?
19:40 silbe garycmartin: sorry for the sidetracking
19:41 garycmartin Pippy!? Hmmm...
19:42 walterbender or Edit...
19:42 some source is not Python
19:42 christianmarcsch walterbender: edit makes sense i think
19:42 if it launches edit, we could use that icon, and reserve the gear for customization
19:42 silbe walterbender: because those operate on Journal entries, but View Source operates on the installed activity (i.e. a directory tree)
19:42 walterbender (we need to make Edit run in old-style Sugar... it only runs 0.86++)
19:43 garycmartin Correction to above, coloured icon in view source holds 'instance source' (html, LOGO, etc), monochrome icon holds activity bundle source.
19:43 walterbender silbe: well, maybe this would be the excuse to move the  viewed source into the Journal
19:43 silbe: and make an editable application
19:44 if we are going to bother to change it, we may as well try to further advance our goals...
19:46 garycmartin Oh my, how did we get off into such a tangent! ;-) we were just trying to decide on a standard icon for a couple or so of our activities.
19:46 silbe walterbender: an activity (like Edit) could offer to open an activity bundle (i.e. MIME type application/vnd.olpc-sugar). To allow viewing / editing system-installed activities, we'd have to implement pseudo-bundles then, though.
19:46 shuts up now so we get back to the icon issue
19:46 walterbender tries not to derail the meeting he was late to...
19:47 garycmartin apologises for the drop shadows in those screen shots, was still playing with compositing.
19:47 christianmarcsch garymartin: yes, i noticed the shadow :)
19:48 i think view source could have a different symbol
19:49 walterbender christianmarcsch: one gotcha is the gear printed on the OLPC keyboards
19:49 christianmarcsch my only concern is that the gear was printed on the XO keyboard (not sure if that's still the case)
19:49 walterbender: yes :)
19:49 garycmartin So, shall we punt this one into the long grass for another week to mull over? Perhaps if we use the cog just for now, and make sure we have a uniques name in sugar-artwork, so we can magically update it away from the view source icon later.
19:49 walterbender christianmarcsch: it is still there... I just designed some new keyboards with them
19:49 christianmarcsch the other thing that comes to mind is a form with checkboxes
19:49 walterbender garycmartin: works for me...
19:50 garycmartin: to me, we are just talking about different levels of customization, so gears and more gears... maybe a gearbox?
19:50 christianmarcsch or maybe a wrench?
19:50 i worry that gears and wrenches could be too close
19:51 walterbender christianmarcsch: I could live with that too...
19:51 christianmarcsch what about a pencil?
19:51 a pencil making a check-mark
19:51 garycmartin Let's punt and try to have some examples for next week.
19:51 walterbender OK...
19:51 silbe garycmartin: +1
19:51 christianmarcsch ok
19:52 garycmartin #topic Get rid of Alt-1 for taking screenshots (collides with some applications, e.g. irssi)
19:52 walterbender the other icons: make a new something... and camera vs sensor vs view....
19:52 next week as well?
19:53 garycmartin go on... someone add it to the agenda.
19:54 walterbender garycmartin: re Alt-1, we need something for grab screen... I always forget what the GNOME Take Snapshot uses
19:54 garycmartin silbe: re Alt-1 I'd hate to drop a very useful shortcut I'm sure is documented all over the place.
19:54 silbe ok, I'd like to get rid of Sugars Alt-1 key binding because it a) gets triggered if you press Cursor Up in Xephyr on a non-US keyboard (Xephyr bug) and, more importantly, b) at least irssi (but IIRC some other applications as well) uses it for regular operations. On my systems I always patch the source to get rid of it.
19:55 garycmartin silbe: seems a shame just because it clashes with some obscure GNOME application, I should really look up what on earth irssi is, something to help stop wrist sprains? ;-)
19:56 silbe garycmartin: it's a text-mode IRC client
19:57 hmm, do we have a PrintScreen key somewhere on the XO? That's the second key we bind to screenshot...
19:57 walterbender silbe: not on the XO
19:57 garycmartin silbe: nope, no PrintScreen key on XO
19:57 silbe ok, I guess that was the reason for this obscure binding
19:57 walterbender silbe: but we do have the unassigned bulletin-board key
19:58 garycmartin so, no one wants to suggest finally using the.... damn, walterbender types fast!
19:58 walterbender (which I still would like to associate with writing to the Jouanrl detail view)
19:58 silbe walterbender: I'd prefer to leave that for a function that's more related to a bulletin than print screen. Like overlay chat. :)
19:59 christianmarcsch silbe: speaking of, whatever happened to overlay chat?
19:59 silbe christianmarcsch: lack of developers working on it AFAIK
19:59 garycmartin christianmarcsch: it needs compositing enables to stand a design chance...
20:00 christianmarcsch garycmartin: i see. and compositing is still an issue from what i gather...
20:00 silbe ok, so removing Alt-1 is a no-go in the short term, we need a replacement and a phase-out period. Let's move on to the next topic.
20:00 garycmartin -1 for removing Alt-1
20:01 Can I hand over to another chair, my hour is up :-(
20:01 silbe christianmarcsch, walterbender: do you have a bit of time left to discuss "What date should the activities list view show for pre-installed activities?"?
20:02 christianmarcsch silbe: sure
20:02 walterbender we should continue next week... 15UTC again??? (but I could talk a bit more about that topic)
20:02 garycmartin Let me end meeting so one of you can start it again, also 15UTC next week is good for me.
20:02 #endmeeting
20:02 meeting Meeting ended Sun Mar 20 20:02:48 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
20:02 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-20T19:01:02.html
20:02 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-03-20T19:01:02

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