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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2011-03-04 23:00:51

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23:00 meeting Meeting started Fri Mar  4 23:00:51 2011 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
23:00 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
23:01 walterbender My apologies for not being able to meet yesterday
23:01 I had a last-minute glitch in my schedule.
23:01 But I am glad we have some time to meet today. Thanks.
23:01 cjb howdy
23:01 walterbender hi chris
23:02 icarito yes thanks sorry for not consulting about the time
23:02 glad you could make it
23:02 walterbender I was just in MIami. I was supposed to be in Mexico, but due to some unfortunate circumstances, that leg of the trip was postponed.
23:02 the silver lining was lots of time with erikos, gonzalo and martin
23:03 we went over some of the OLPC plans for Sugar and did some coding :)
23:03 cjb :)
23:03 walterbender and we discussed the need/opportunity for a Sugar Camp.
23:03 acaire11 <acaire11!~webchat@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
23:04 lucian has quit IRC
23:05 walterbender I had been thinking that a Sugar Camp coincident with some of the events in .uy in the coming months would make sense, but after discussing it with Pablo Flores, it may make more sense to aim for Miami, sooner than later.
23:05 bernie is excited at the idea of a sugar camp!
23:05 walterbender but I want to bring it up here first for general discussion
23:05 some background:
23:06 we were going to hold a Sugar Camp in Lima in February, but it never materialized because of a breakdown in communication with DIGITE
23:06 then Pablo announced the CeibalJam event, 5-7May
23:07 and it seemed that the AC gang was going to be in .uy around that time.
23:07 Plus erikos is in the region then.
23:07 cjb huh.  so what's wrong with colocating it with CeibalJam?
23:07 walterbender hence the potential synergy with a Sugar Camp in .uy
23:08 alsroot cjb: +1
23:08 walterbender cjb: nothing except it seems that the AC people are not going after all :P
23:08 bernie I'd be +1 on having everyone in montevideo
23:08 walterbender so if there is a better way to include them, we should discuss it.
23:08 bernie walterbender: i'd go if enough other people go
23:08 cjb walterbender: well, that doesn't have to be a showstopper.  and maybe they'd reconsider if they knew that it was *the* SugarCamp event
23:08 walterbender cjb:  absolutely not a show-stopper... just a consideration.
23:08 cjb cool, okay
23:09 dogi has quit IRC
23:09 cjb I think we should push for it!
23:09 It sounds like good timing, good location, good excuse for a meetup
23:09 walterbender would love to finally meet alsroot -- can we get him a visa?
23:09 cjb: a couple of other events include: end of May, Squeakfest in Montevideo
23:09 icarito has quit IRC
23:09 cjb oh, that would work too
23:09 walterbender and the Tour of Uruguay in late April
23:10 cjb hm, OLPC has a bringup scheduled early May
23:10 (and I'd like us to send people, possibly including me)
23:10 walterbender cjb: that was one reason brought up yesterday for considering something in late March in Miami
23:11 cjb late March seems way too soon for a global meetup
23:11 sorry I'm jumping in at the last minute and trying to change things though :)
23:11 walterbender plus there is a mini-learning summit planned for the 24-25th of March.
23:11 icarito <icarito!~icaro@> has joined #sugar-meeting
23:11 walterbender cjb: this all last minute, alas.
23:11 icarito sorry i got dropped out
23:11 damn
23:12 cjb icarito: try using quassel or something
23:12 walterbender how about if I send an email to Sugar Devel with a list of possible dates/venues and ask for people to express their preferences in the wiki?
23:12 cjb icarito: it's useless to try and stay on IRC with a flaky connection like that
23:13 walterbender: that sounds like a good idea
23:13 walterbender and we can pick the combintion that maximizes attendence
23:13 will CC iaep and dev.laptop.org
23:13 cjb great
23:13 I'll try to help by getting a clear indication from our hardware team when the Taipei trip is happening
23:14 unfortunately 5-7 is right in the middle of the current dates
23:14 but they could slip, or we could try to position SugarCamp before or after CeibalJam to match up
23:14 walterbender we also talked about the sorts of things we might work on together: everything from Python interspection to an Activity sprint.
23:14 cjb the python introspection stuff is really important
23:15 right now we're stuck on deprecated code (pygtk) that no-one wants to maintain anymore
23:15 and it's going to get worse quickly over time
23:15 so I think making that the full focus of the hacking part of the Camp would be a really good use of time
23:15 icarito pygtk is unmantained?
23:15 cjb icarito: deprecated in favor of gobject introspection
23:16 there is no pygtk for gtk3
23:16 walterbender IMHO, we would be best served by one of two approaches: a big push into looming problems or an intense effort to bring everything up to date
23:16 I guess it depends upon who can attend.
23:16 cjb yeah, somewhat
23:16 walterbender but I'll solicit topics too.
23:16 cjb no need to decide so far ahead of time
23:16 icarito cjb, hmm interesting I did not know that
23:16 icarito1 <icarito1!~icarito@> has joined #sugar-meeting
23:16 icarito gobject instrospection...
23:17 walterbender tomeu and erikos have done some ground work
23:17 there is other stuff going on too, such as improved collaboration bits we may want to explore
23:17 bernie walterbender: i'll talk with dfarning about getting all the AC folks to attend the Sugar Camp in Montevideo. many of them are very close
23:17 cjb having sugar services available via gobject-introspection would also make them usable from other languages
23:17 like javascript or C
23:18 walterbender cjb: a bit win
23:18 icarito colombia might be a good spot too
23:18 strategically speaking
23:18 bernie cjb: they'd have to be rewritten in C or vala, though
23:18 icarito rodrigo arboleda announced a project for 4.5 million laptops
23:18 alsroot cjb: you mean <python code>-<introspection>-<*>?
23:18 icarito might not materialize but there's lot of momentum
23:18 dirakx it would be nice to have a gobject-intronspection migration plan.
23:18 cjb alsroot: yeah, that's what I meant.  I don't know much about it yet though.
23:19 bernie cjb: as far as i understand, the pygi work was intended to do the opposite: make sugar bind to gtk/gnome libs without any specific bindings.
23:19 cjb should we talk about possibilities for travel sponsorship?
23:19 icarito sugar api accesible from javascript would be a hit ;-)
23:19 bernie i would definitely need sponsorship either from AC or Sugar Labs.
23:20 walterbender cjb: yes...
23:20 icarito yes me too
23:20 walterbender cjb: I'll push on several fronts... but SL hasn't got much in terms of discretionary funds :(
23:21 alsroot cjb: hmm, not sure how python UI code might be used in other palces, ie, for that case I started working on polyol(vala, and introspection, surar-toolkit)
23:21 cjb yeah
23:21 we could encourage individual donations for travel sponsorship
23:21 walterbender but I bet we could get the various LA deployments to send people.
23:21 and maybe kick in to support a few of the far-flung developers.
23:21 bernie cjb: +1
23:21 icarito there's campus party big event in bogota in end of june
23:21 http://www.campus-party.com.co[…]11/el-evento.html
23:22 cjb I'm happy to ask people at OLPC to consider donating for travel sponsorship, though I guess I'm not very optimistic.  :)  (If we're sending a few people I think that makes it more possible than if we aren't.)
23:22 icarito we already have participation, they would be open to host a sugar camp
23:23 cjb if it's phrased as a conference fee for people who have jobs, that would be interesting
23:23 icarito cjb, CanoeBerry is good at that
23:23 cjb like, if you benefit from Sugar professionally then there's a suggested donation
23:23 icarito i was amazed at what they accomplished for SF
23:23 cjb yeah, good point
23:23 icarito VISA is a barrier for latam participation in USA events
23:24 and language of course
23:24 walterbender icarito: we should add that(el evento)  for a possible date/venue on the wiki page I will make.
23:24 cjb so it seems like the important thing is simply to announce that we want to have a SugarCamp sometime around April-June
23:25 hopefully everything else will work itself out from there :)
23:25 walterbender we should be able to get LATU to help us vis-a-vis any visa issues. (try saying that aloud 3 times)
23:25 icarito here's what I mentioned about rodrigo http://ht.ly/423rh
23:26 walterbender, if we want to have participation from peru (that would be interesting, from a pedagogical pov i think) i guess the only way is doing it there
23:26 but i'm seeing that our goals for a SC are more technical
23:26 cjb icarito: my Spanish is terrible, but it looks like that's a proposal rather than something that's actually been funded
23:27 icarito like we need to sprint
23:27 cjb yeah
23:27 my feeling is that we need a lot of technical work this time
23:27 walterbender cjb: yes... I think SC should be focused on coding...
23:27 icarito cjb, yes but there's lots of activity lately here because the president announced each child would get a laptop
23:27 cjb I understand that it's great to have educators at  events too
23:27 icarito cjb, the question is which brand
23:27 walterbender but the good news is that we may get some pointed feedback at the end of March at the mini-learning summit
23:27 cjb but yeah, at this point we're behind on technical work the rest of our platform's done and we need to catch up
23:28 that's good
23:28 icarito walterbender, mini learning summit?
23:28 walterbender we hope to have representatives from the learning teams from .uy, .py, .pe, .ni...
23:28 bernie .it
23:28 icarito where?
23:29 walterbender icarito: still in the early planning stages: Miami, end of March
23:29 icarito: a focus on evaluation
23:29 icarito: I think that Claudia may have discussed it in Wednesday's learning chat (that I missed due to airplanes)
23:30 icarito walterbender, cjb the Campus Party is a technical event, if we did it then, i'm sure we could sprint our minds off and even recruit some help
23:31 cjb icarito: yep, maybe.  it looks huge, I think I would get too distracted to concentrate on Sugar code :)
23:31 icarito this would position sugar labs even more strongly in colombia, which i feel is one of our strongholds
23:32 colomia is strategically located in the middle between miami and uy/pe
23:32 dirakx, what do you think about campus party for hosting a sugar camp?
23:32 cjb that's true, though we shouldn't necessarily pick a SC location based on what's convenient to selling XOs
23:32 walterbender well, let's lay out the choices and see what we can come up with in terms of attendence.
23:33 dirakx icarito. not agree. campusparty is more like a comercial event of telefonica. inmho.
23:33 walterbender #action: Walter will make a webpage later tonight to spell out the Sugar Camp options
23:34 dirakx: but maybe telefonica will sponsor the Sugar Camp... worth asking
23:34 icarito dirakx, they already are sponsoring my workshop of Turtle Art
23:34 dirakx walterbender: that's what i was thinking..maybe fundacion telefonica would be interested.
23:34 walterbender icarito: cool
23:34 icarito dirakx, and they sponsored a workshop last year too for SL Co
23:34 walterbender icarito: v107 will be landing soon :P
23:34 icarito that's where we recruited iguana
23:35 dirakx ok ;)
23:35 icarito iguana is Fabian Prieto, a very avid history major who was in charge of a SOAS deployment
23:36 walterbender, ok lets discuss this in the ML
23:37 walterbender OK.
23:37 any other topics for this evening?
23:37 icarito: do you have an update re certification programs?
23:37 and maybe we can chat for a few minutes about i18n?
23:38 icarito only that SL Chile has contributed some documentation about training they did
23:38 cjb I was just going to mention the realization I've had on how important it is that we get over to gobject-introspection and gtk3, but I did that earlier :)
23:38 oh, also -- multitouch support is only in gtk3, not gtk2
23:38 so that's important for OLPC :)
23:39 (but I think there are very strong reasons for SL to do the introspection thing regardless of multitouch/OLPC)
23:39 icarito cjb, do you mean really there won't be gtk for python in v3? I don't believe it!
23:40 walterbender, certification has been well received but nothing has been established yet
23:41 JT_4sugar <JT_4sugar!JT@d192-24-250-129.try.wideopenwest.com> has joined #sugar-meeting
23:41 icarito #action icarito will write a wiki page on Local Labs / Certification programme and continue the discusion on sur@+IAEP
23:42 homunq_ <homunq_!~chema@> has joined #sugar-meeting
23:42 bernie cjb: if we do keep around a backwards compatible sugar-toolkit, the transition won't be too traumatic
23:43 cjb icarito: pygtk.org says that new applications should no longer be written using pygtk.
23:43 walterbender re i18n, did anyone have any thought about how we can shore up our Pootle support?
23:43 bernie cjb: i think it's very easy to do if we rename the gtk3 sugar toolkit
23:43 cjb icarito: but instead pygobject.
23:43 icarito cjb, bernie how do you see something like Titanium Appcelerator?
23:43 cjb icarito: I think HTML5+JS looks much better
23:43 bernie icarito: what is it?
23:43 walterbender Chris Leonard's email was an eye-opener
23:43 cjb bernie: sure
23:44 icarito its an API / dev / deployment tool
23:44 you write your app in HTML + JS + optionally Python/Ruby/PHP
23:44 cjb bernie: it's a crossplatform toolkit like wxWindows but it targets web pages as well
23:44 icarito it deploys a Desktop App in Mac/Windows/GNU
23:44 bernie cjb: i see... like qt
23:44 cjb bernie: yeah, like Qt with a web backend
23:44 icarito bernie, not really
23:45 its more like Prism on steroids
23:45 bernie cjb: ah you mean *real* web pages
23:45 cjb bernie: yes, rich webapps
23:45 icarito provides a common API for desktop items such as traybar
23:45 bernie, the latest Status.net desktop app is built with it
23:45 and its free software
23:46 i've found it pretty cool as I'm hacking on a status.net desktop client
23:46 provides the view source functionality cscott was asking for
23:46 homunq has quit IRC
23:46 JT4sugar has quit IRC
23:47 icarito i would really like to see a sugar compatible api and dev tools like that
23:47 bernie icarito: so, i don't know this particular framework, but introducing new toolkits in sugar is problematic... we'd have to keep around the old toolkit for years to support the existing 200+ activities
23:47 icarito i know i'm dreaming
23:48 bernie, actually it's pretty much just webkit + glue code
23:48 walterbender has quit IRC
23:48 bernie icarito: besides, it's not going to happen unless someone steps forward to do the work. some time ago it seemed that nokia wanted us to introduce qt support in sugar, but then the deal did not happen.
23:48 icarito but i have no code to show for it so i'll drop it for now
23:49 walterbender <walterbender!~webchat@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
23:49 walterbender sorry. I managed to lose my network connection :(
23:49 bernie icarito: if you come up with something that could be bundled and used to write new activities, some developers could use it. if it becomes popular, then it could be standardized later on
23:49 icarito bernie, you should really look at it what I like is you can have <script language="python">
23:50 ok then so we should dicuss i18n
23:50 bernie icarito: my friend torello did some work to port Mono (C#) applications to Sugar. he rewrote some of the classes in sugar-toolkit, including the toolbar and journal interface.
23:50 icarito i understand we are at a bit of a crisis?
23:50 walterbender icarito: it seems to be the case...
23:51 icarito bernie, ah yes i remember that, i cringed at the thought of .net sugar apps :-D
23:51 walterbender wearing my activity developer hat, I cannot seem to figure out how to get new strings into Pootle any more... the auto-magic is not happening
23:51 alsroot bernie: btw, GC use C sugar-toolkit in for UI+Journal+TP
23:52 icarito alsroot, GC?
23:52 alsroot icarito: GCompris
23:52 C is much more portable then C#
23:53 icarito if we could have a JS sugar API then perhaps porting activities to android, etc would be closer to happening, as well as targeting the web
23:54 alsroot, bernie cjb , what would be a way to call the sugar api from JS, so I can go on researching myself?
23:54 alsroot icarito: actually, we need to split UI and non-UI parts, non-UI code (how its done in polyol) is just pure C code +, eg, tp calls
23:55 for UI code, in polyol it is gtk C code
23:55 icarito i'm sorry i think we're not on topic - alsroot tp calls? sorry i'm not 100% on abbreviations
23:55 alsroot icarito: telepathy
23:55 icarito ah
23:55 i read some cool docs from lucian on "Webified" on the wiki
23:55 alsroot after switching from PS, tp wrappers are more useful to have in sugar lib
23:57 icarito alsroot, so sorry again - PS?
23:57 bernie alsroot: is the toolkit available as a separate library?
23:57 alsroot icarito: presence-service, that is being deprecated in 0.90+
23:57 bernie hmm i feel that we got way too technical for a slobs meeting :-)
23:57 cjb icarito: there are gobject-introspection bindings for js
23:57 icarito yes and we still should discuss i18n
23:57 alsroot bernie: there are ds,ui,collab,shell libs
23:57 bernie alsroot: deprecated or removed?
23:57 cjb icarito: e.g. http://live.gnome.org/Gjs/
23:58 icarito cjb, thanks for the pointers
23:58 bernie alsroot: i thought we weren't running the PS process any more
23:58 alsroot bernie: afaik, etoys still needs it (and polyol as well, but I'm planing to add non-ps backend to it)
23:58 cjb bernie: I think we'd just end up with some "Sugar1" activities and some "Sugar2" activities, if we do an ambitious rewrite
23:58 bernie: it works okay for e.g. Android :)
23:59 bernie cjb: i think it's the cheapest way to evolve the platform it as long as the dependencies are relatively flat
00:00 walterbender seems we are off topic for SLOBs... and it is 7PM EST, so let's end meeting and continue the technical discussion in #sugar??
00:00 alsroot cjb: -1 for "rewrite" activigties, ie, for sugar should not be tied to only one lang,frmawork,etc. if will say "use what you prefer", it should be more sugar way
00:00 bernie cjb: that is, as long as there's only one big api rather than an intricate web of interdependent apis
00:00 walterbender: ok. shall we discuss the website?
00:00 walterbender bernie: we have a call on Tuesday, I think
00:00 icarito bernie, that's what I like about TA (Titanium Appcelerator) you have a single api from JS, python, ruby and PHP
00:01 bernie walterbender: ah ok. great :)
00:01 icarito walterbender, ok what about i18n?
00:01 walterbender bernie: so we'll hopefully have something tangible to discuss.
00:01 icarito how can we improve the situation
00:01 i feel this is urgent, sorry to have brought the dicsussion so technical
00:02 walterbender icarito: at the basic level, we need to find someone with some technical chops who is willing to take it on
00:02 icarito for instance we'd like to complete the AY and QU translations and integrate them
00:02 walterbender icarito: I don't think it involves a lot of programming, but solid technical adminsitration skills
00:02 cjb alsroot: I don't understand.  You're saying that people should use whatever language they prefer, but that we shouldn't rewrite anything?  Those are contradictory.
00:02 walterbender bernie: is that your take?
00:02 bernie icarito: i'd like to try it out, just out of curiosity
00:03 alsroot cjb: I got your "reqwrite" for rewriting activities from python to whatever..
00:03 cjb alsroot: yeah
00:04 icarito ok so should we bring the i18n crisis up on the ML?
00:04 bernie walterbender: sometimes i've seen translations made with SSI (server side includes). it has the advantage of keeping the html free of code
00:04 alsroot cjb: I mean, if people like something different from python and will to rewrite activities, it is ok, but we need to call "lets rewire sugar in.." but "lets add .. support"
00:05 walterbender icarito: did cjl's email go to the lists or just SLOBs?
00:05 alsroot s/but we need to/but we don't need to/
00:05 bernie walterbender: if translation demands us to use anything more than plain html, then we'd better switch to a CMS
00:05 dirakx we are working in a new VM to do a pootle upgrade/migration to latest pootle/translatetoolkit/django, I hope that improves things.
00:05 icarito walterbender, i think it went to slobs members directly
00:05 bernie walterbender: dogi wanted to use pootle for translations, but that would require switching to gettext... i don't think it's feasible
00:05 walterbender bernie: I think our immediate problem is i18n for Sugar and Sugar activities
00:05 icarito dirakx, I'd like to help with that
00:05 walterbender bernie: but if we can address the website at the same time, all the better
00:06 JT_4sugar bernie, Website call 12pm EST Tues March 8th on Skype Anyone else we should have on call? On call-myself, Sean, Walter, Christian Marc, Marc-Seso, Prof. Jacobs and student, Gary Martin?
00:06 icarito can we plan an action for i18n?
00:06 CanoeBerry ironically i just missed the last hour as CeibalJAM etc just explained to me the details of their SugarCamp++ May 5-7
00:06 icarito this shouldnt go without one
00:06 dirakx but i guess that we should also ask for suggestions about how to improve..workflow somewaht.
00:06 icarito dirakx, +1
00:06 bernie walterbender: ah, you mean plain Pootle administration? we met sayamindu last week, who helped me and dirakx fix a problem in the old pootle
00:06 cjb CanoeBerry: do you think we should try to schedule a SugarCamp alongside it?
00:06 bernie walterbender: i'm not sure what the current status is... dirakx would know better
00:06 CanoeBerry that's CeibalJAM's plan
00:06 dirakx old pootle is working with some minor glitches...
00:07 cjb it's really inconvenient for OLPC engineering but it otherwise seems like a good idea
00:07 CanoeBerry: shouldn't it be.. our plan?
00:07 dirakx I've been working with cjl to fix bad areas.
00:07 CanoeBerry yes
00:07 cjb I mean, a SugarCamp run by Sugar Labs
00:07 okay.  so it sounds like I should just work on trying to get us to not be in Taipei around May 5th.
00:08 which currently seems fairly impossible to avoid, but stranger things have happened.
00:08 dirakx but i haven't seen cjl email..so his complaints maybe both technicall and about workflow.
00:08 walterbender alas, I need to disappear in a minute. Am I the one who has to end meeting or can it be done by anyone now?
00:08 cjb walterbender: I think you'd better do it, we're about done anyway
00:08 icarito also everybody I'd like to announce to SLOBS that I got hired on a probationary basis by AC this month for working with dirakx on activities
00:08 walterbender dirakx: I will ask cjl to send his email to sugar-devel
00:08 dirakx walterbender: great.
00:08 icarito great
00:08 walterbender but there is at a minimum a workflow issue
00:09 CanoeBerry announcement of May 5-7 will be tomorrow -- i'm trying to get a draft of the announcement we / SLOBs / other can look over
00:09 homunq_ has quit IRC
00:09 dirakx anyway..we are having hands on it.
00:09 walterbender dirakx: great.
00:09 bernie dirakx: what email?
00:09 walterbender OK. I am sorry, but my family is calling...
00:09 cjb icarito: cool, congrats.
00:09 walterbender bernie: the email from Chris Leonard about i18n
00:09 dirakx bernie: a cjl email to SLOBS.
00:09 walterbender so I need to end meeting...
00:09 bernie walterbender: i must have missed it
00:10 walterbender #end-meeting
00:10 meeting Meeting ended Sat Mar  5 00:10:04 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
00:10 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-04T23:00:51.html
00:10 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-03-04T23:00:51

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