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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2011-02-13 14:01:43

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14:01 meeting Meeting started Sun Feb 13 14:01:43 2011 UTC. The chair is garycmartin. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
14:01 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
14:02 walterbender thanks for coming to the design meeting... long over due :)
14:02 christianmarcsch yes indeed!
14:02 i have been looking through the agenda
14:02 walterbender did everyone see the agenda Sascha put together?
14:02 christianmarcsch could use a little explanation...
14:02 walterbender #link http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ruary/029938.html
14:02 christianmarcsch: I suppose we can go into detail one by one
14:02 garycmartin walterbender: yes, and yours, and Simon's!
14:03 walterbender I'd like to add the Home View idea that Fred posted this morning as well...
14:03 christianmarcsch walterbender: thanks, that would be great
14:03 garycmartin walterbender: whose list should we start with?
14:03 walterbender #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]Home_View/Toolbar
14:03 let's use Sascha's, which I think is comprehensive
14:04 #topic size issue with Random View
14:05 garycmartin #topic Issue with icon size in Random Layout home view
14:05 walterbender as background, when we added the spiral, I upped the maximum size of icons to Medium when there were just a few icons
14:06 if you switch to Random View, it ends up making the icons Standard size when you move them.
14:06 Question is: what size should icons be in Random view? should the size change wit density?
14:06 garycmartin walterbender: is it possible to have the behave as they did before and avoid needing to make a new specific choice?
14:06 walterbender (let's not spend a lot of time on this one: pretty minor point)
14:07 christianmarcsch quick question: by random view, i assume you mean freeform?
14:07 walterbender garycmartin: sure: I can make them all map to standard size. (yes freeform -- it is called random in the code)
14:07 christianmarcsch is there a screenshot posted somewhere?
14:08 walterbender christianmarcsch: I didn't make one... I could while we move on to the next topic
14:08 christianmarcsch walterbender: thanks, that would help.
14:09 garycmartin walterbender: If we go with scaling the icons based on count, then free form patterns people make would need shuffling as the size scaled, would be frustrating I think.
14:09 walterbender garycmartin: I agree...
14:09 garycmartin: so probably we should just pick one size.
14:10 garycmartin: but the old code just assumed a maximum size... doesn't really handle the situation properly
14:10 christianmarcsch walterbender: could we pick one size for random view, but still have the other view scale?
14:10 walterbender christianmarcsch: yes.
14:10 garycmartin walterbender: the freeform layout does not have such a hard limit on the number that can fit in a fixed layout (which is where the auto scaling really helps).
14:10 walterbender garycmartin: agreed.
14:10 so the question is simply, what size?
14:11 so I will make a screen shot or two to show you
14:11 christianmarcsch ok, perfect
14:11 garycmartin walterbender:  what is the size of the icon that is directly under the large central XO? Seems like that should the the default in that zoom view.
14:11 walterbender garycmartin: that is Standard size
14:12 garycmartin: actually, I find it confusing sometimes that that icon doesn't move and the others do, so I would argue a different size would help (or some other distinction)
14:13 garycmartin walterbender: yes fair point, especially in freeform layout where icons can clobber near there.
14:13 walterbender well, let me make the screen shots... meanwhile, shall we discuss the Mute button?
14:13 garycmartin walterbender: (but it still seemed about the right size ;-)
14:13 walterbender garycmartin: yes. I agree
14:14 Nubae has left #sugar-meeting
14:16 walterbender #topic Speaker frame device: pop up palette on left-click instead of toggling   mute
14:16 silbe: can you give a brief intro?
14:16 garycmartin walterbender: +1 from me for speaker device tweak.
14:17 silbe I'll copy & paste the patch description:
14:17 Speaker frame device: pop up palette on left-click instead of toggling mute
14:17 Reports from the field indicate that users accidently left-click the Speaker
14:17 icon and don't realise it got muted. By popping up the palette we enable them
14:18 to explicitly choose the mute action without instead of surprising them by
14:18 automatically executing one of the secondary actions (there is no primary
14:18 action).
14:18 (trying to find a mockup or screenshot of the Speaker device so we all know what it looks like currently)
14:19 christianmarcsch is this it: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]:Screenshot-3.png
14:20 silbe christianmarcsch: yep, exactly. This is NOT it: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]/Designs/Frame#07
14:20 (the latter one is missing the Mute action)
14:20 christianmarcsch do we have a state change on the icon when muted?
14:20 i mean currently?
14:20 silbe yes, it turns monochrome if muted
14:21 otherwise owner colors
14:21 christianmarcsch i see
14:21 that probably isn't a strong enough signal
14:21 the proposal to put it in the palette seems fine to me
14:22 i certainly makes the functionality more clear
14:22 garycmartin christianmarcsch: I'm also not aware of other device toolbar icons that have this top level single click action, certainly not any of the default ones.
14:22 silbe it already is a secondary action in the palette. My proposal is to drop the "hidden" primary action and just pop up the palette on left-click (as well as right-click) instead.
14:22 garycmartin +1
14:23 christianmarcsch sounds good
14:23 silbe nice :) walterbender?
14:24 christianmarcsch one question: how do i unmute?
14:24 does a new menu item appear?
14:25 walterbender silbe:  I am fine with this proposal
14:25 silbe christianmarcsch: same way. The action changes to Unmute
14:25 garycmartin christianmarcsch: just double checking, but I'm sure the item renames
14:25 walterbender christianmarcsch: #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]reeform_icon_size
14:25 silbe (I just double checked ;) )
14:26 christianmarcsch walterbender: thanks for the screenshot
14:26 walterbender seems like we have consensus on this one...
14:27 garycmartin christianmarcsch: yes, cross in circle icon and Mute text changes to tick in circle icon and Unmute text.
14:27 #AGREED
14:27 silbe perfect. Let's go back to the first one then, the icon sizes in free form view?
14:27 christianmarcsch +1 re: mute
14:27 walterbender #topic icon size in free  form
14:27 everyone see the screen shots?
14:28 christianmarcsch yes, thanks
14:28 so, i agree that if we had to go with one size, standard size probably works best
14:28 medium looks good, but will only work for a small number of icons
14:28 i also see walter
14:28 's point about differentiating the icon below the XO
14:29 walterbender christianmarcsch: well, you can pack quite a few in if you have all the screen even at Medium size
14:29 christianmarcsch walterbender: visually, i'd be inclined to go with medium
14:29 walterbender probably 100 or more
14:29 garycmartin walterbender: can we have a larger hit mask area around the central XO icon in freeform mode to make sure there is reasonable white space?
14:29 silbe whispers: Let's drop it... :D
14:29 walterbender garycmartin: I like that suggestion
14:30 christianmarcsch garycmartin: the whitespace would help, and we may not need to otherwise differentiate the size of the icon
14:30 walterbender let me make some more sketches based on this feedback and maybe we can revisit this through email?
14:30 christianmarcsch ok
14:30 one thing i'd add:
14:31 it would be nice if we could also make the icon under the XO medium, with added whitespace
14:31 walterbender I need to check, but I don't think Freeform puts any protected zone around the center of the screen... leaves that to the user.
14:31 christianmarcsch: I'll try that option as well
14:32 #agreed that walter will present more sketches in an email thread
14:32 #topic  Don't hide Register menu item upon successful registration
14:32 silbe: you are up again!!
14:32 silbe ah, now it's getting "interesting"
14:33 garycmartin walterbender: I'm not sure if your bot commands will work...
14:33 walterbender: need to be the meeting chair according to the wiki I'm reading
14:33 walterbender garycmartin: OK...
14:33 garycmartin irc://irc.freenode.net/#agreed that walter will present more sketches in an email thread
14:33 silbe Currently we have a "Register" menu item in the buddy menu of the central XO owner icon that's shown iff the user isn't registered to a school server yet.
14:34 garycmartin #agreed that walter will present more sketches in an email thread
14:34 #topic Don't hide Register menu item upon successful registration
14:34 silbe For deployments (including non-XO ones) and individual users that don't use a school server, it will always be shown.
14:35 Some deployments don't back up the school server, so they need users to be able to register again (after the school server has been re-installed).
14:36 garycmartin silbe: The register option should be a menu on the neighbourhood view, specifically the schoolserver icon we spent ages on should be in the main canvas with the options.
14:36 walterbender silbe: and I image if they change schools... another scenario?
14:36 silbe Others do the registration fully automatically (though I don't know how) and don't want the menu item to be shown at all.
14:36 walterbender garycmartin: that'd be nice
14:36 silbe garycmartin: except that I have no idea how that would work on the network level.
14:37 walterbender be nice to not ever have it on the home view...
14:37 garycmartin silbe: is not schoolserver not an agreed dns name?
14:37 silbe walterbender: +1 it always felt awkward to have that option there.
14:38 garycmartin: which one? schoolserver.school1.edu, schoolserver.school2.edu, ...?
14:38 walterbender silbe: as a short-term measure, not having it disappear would be innocuous enough it seems.
14:38 garycmartin silbe: so how does the 'register' option deal with multiple servers on the same domain?
14:39 silbe in the simple cases, the school server is an all-in-one solution that handles DHCP and DNS, too, so just "schoolserver" works. But if Sugar is fit into an existing infrastructure, that might be possible.
14:40 garycmartin no objection to keeping the register option visible if that is a quick fix that works – though it is and alway was in the wrong place ;-)
14:40 silbe garycmartin: it depends on someone having set the address in the Control Panel. Default is jabber.sugarlabs.org.
14:41 garycmartin silbe: your kidding, my goodness... ouch.
14:42 silbe hmm, maybe we can do some HTTP level poking to discover if the Jabber server is a full-grown school server and display the school server icon in the Neighborhood then...
14:42 garycmartin silbe: there's no mention of schoolserver in the UI text.
14:42 walterbender silbe: seems we should be able to get something into the school server to make such identification readily apparent
14:43 silbe: shall we get martin langhoff on it?
14:43 garycmartin: there has been a school server in the Sugar mix since Day One. the fact that the HIG doesn't mention it is an oversight
14:44 silbe walterbender: yeah, would probably be a nice medium-term solution. Long-term I'm not sure if the assumption that both are the same machine make sense, but let's talk about that sometime else. :)
14:44 walterbender silbe: I don't think that is the intention... both the same
14:45 garycmartin walterbender: totally agreed, having never need to user a schoolserver I never realised how shockingly poor the UI to it was implemented/documented.
14:45 walterbender so de we agree to the short-term patch and the longer term direction to investigate?
14:45 garycmartin +1
14:45 silbe garycmartin: FWIW, that's what my current patch does - it renames the menu item to "Register again".
14:46 walterbender silbe: that is an improvement
14:47 shall we advance to the next topic?
14:47 garycmartin are we all happy with that one?
14:47 walterbender +1
14:47 christianmarcsch +1
14:47 garycmartin christianmarcsch: ^^
14:47 silbe +1 on both for me. christianmarcsch?
14:47 walterbender #topic Journal entries on external media
14:47 garycmartin #agreed to not hide Register menu item upon successful registration
14:48 walterbender another silbe topic :P
14:48 garycmartin #topic Journal entries on external media
14:48 silbe yeah, or erikos - but I was the one who proposed the changes, so I adopted it :)
14:49 Context:
14:49 OLPC ships a version of Sugar 0.84 that brings back some of the Sugar 0.82 way of handling Journal entries on external media
14:51 current "upstream" versions of Sugar 0.84+ don't store (Sugar) metadata on external media and construct a minimal metadata set based on file name and detected file type
14:52 (the reason I'm mentioning "OLPC ships" is just because version numbers don't adequately describe the different versions of Sugar and their handling of external media)
14:53 the patch is going to get merged into 0.92, and I proposed a few changes:
14:53 a) remove the metadata if there is not an associated file (e.g.
14:53 file has been deleted), so any file that gets written with the same name
14:53 in the future doesn't get associated with stale metadata. Files are
14:53 often named "Untitled.odt" etc., so it might be a rather common case.
14:53 b) delete metadata if it gets corrupted (don't delete the actual file)
14:54 c) remove preview if mtime does not match (e.g. Peter saves his Write entry to a storage device, he opens it in OpenOffice on his mother's computer and his mother corrects some errors ---> the preview will be outdated), this might not be a too big issue - input on the design team on this welcome.
14:54 (sorry for the wrapping on a) )
14:55 garycmartin silbe: I don't see anything controversial from a design side with the proposed changes (assuming code review and testing went well).
14:55 silbe It's all about what happens if an entry is modified or deleted outside of Sugar.
14:55 garycmartin: nice.
14:55 (there's no updated code yet)
14:56 christianmarcsch silbe: i'm not sure about removing the preview. it seems that it may still have value, even if it is outdate?
14:56 walterbender silbe: does preview even make sense in the context of external media?
14:56 silbe FGrose proposed the following alteration:
14:56 'Watermark' the image with 'Changed'. (Even an old image may help identify the object.)
14:56 I like it (FGrose's proposal) :)
14:57 christianmarcsch silbe: that sounds like a reasonable solution
14:57 silbe walterbender: sure. Think sharing a large bunch of photos.
14:57 garycmartin silbe: 'Changes' will need to be localised, and fit in the fairly small preview images.
14:58 christianmarcsch silbe: it may not be necessary to even indicate that it has changed
14:58 silbe garycmartin: Good point. Though probably the existence of a banner might be enough of a hint even if it's not readable.
14:58 christianmarcsch silbe: once i open the file in sugar, the preview will be re-generated, correct?
15:00 silbe christianmarcsch: yes, it would. I'm worried about users getting confused that the preview shows the old version even though they did changes, and might think the changes didn't get saved.
15:00 garycmartin silbe: Actually, I think step c) could be dropped, I'd not be too flustered seeing an old preview. Perhaps worse would be seeing the blank grey and having a panic that my data was not there anymore.
15:00 silbe (actually opening the file would show the updated contents, of course)
15:00 christianmarcsch silbe: i think i agree with garycmartin. a badge/watermark could be explored, but may not be necessary
15:02 silbe ok. so definitely not "drop the image", and maybe watermark / badge / other indication of change (e.g. text label below the image).
15:02 walterbender needs to go offline for an hour... will try to reconnect.
15:02 christianmarcsch: FYI: see the new sketches at the bottom of http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]reeform_icon_size
15:02 thanks all. CU
15:03 garycmartin walterbender: thanks!
15:03 christianmarcsch walterbender: thanks, ttyl
15:03 walterbender likes Fred's home view toolbar proposal, FWIW
15:03 later
15:03 silbe garycmartin, christianmarcsch: what's your schedule? should we just interrupt the meeting until walterbender gets back?
15:03 christianmarcsch silbe: i can probably tune in again for a little bit later today
15:04 garycmartin silbe: yea I think that should be fine, should I end meeting for now and make today a two meeting session?
15:04 silbe christianmarcsch: do you have a rough estimate when?
15:04 christianmarcsch silbe: in one hour should work for me
15:05 silbe garycmartin: Sounds good, but can we sum up the current topic quickly first?
15:05 christianmarcsch: perfect.
15:05 garycmartin silbe: Sure.
15:05 FGrose <FGrose!~webchat@jita.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
15:05 christianmarcsch great--talk to you soon
15:05 silbe I suppose we had consensus that a)+b) are useful changes?
15:06 christianmarcsch silbe: yes
15:06 garycmartin silbe: so we seemed to agree that a & b are fine, and that c is not necessary.
15:06 silbe and for c) we have consensus not to do it that way, but maybe a different way.
15:07 garycmartin silbe: I think badging an old preview would actually be more confusing.
15:08 walterbender has quit IRC
15:08 silbe and as there doesn't seem to be a strong need to signal the change, we could add it after the patch landed
15:08 i.e. this decision doesn't block the patch review.
15:08 garycmartin silbe: Sure.
15:08 christianmarcsch silbe: that makes sense. if there is any confusion, we can reconsider a badge/watermark
15:09 silbe ok, I'll move the change indication idea to 0.94+ then. Let's try to see what actual users think of it.
15:09 garycmartin #agreed a) remove the metadata if there is not an associated file; b) delete metadata if it gets corrupted (don't delete the actual file)
15:10 silbe Not that I expect them to actually get back to us if they're getting confused, but that's a totally different matter.
15:10 #agreed c) do NOT delete the stale preview image
15:11 garycmartin: ^
15:11 garycmartin silbe: Future gazing for png/jpg/... common formats, perhaps out of date previews could be generated?
15:11 #agreed c) do NOT delete the stale preview image
15:12 silbe garycmartin: it would be slow, but certainly a possibility. For the details view, it might be OK if we add a "loading" animation for the preview.
15:12 garycmartin silbe: did you omit the "Dynamically set number of control panel columns" topic intentionality? Would be real nice to finally land this dextrose based change.
15:13 silbe: details view, loading spinner sounds good.
15:13 silbe garycmartin: It's listed for 0.94+ as "Control Panel rework (erikos)".
15:14 garycmartin silbe: oh well, I guess it can wait _another_ 6 months ;-)
15:15 silbe garycmartin: Or rather, we decided to keep the current patch in master, since it makes the situation better. Label wrapping is needed no matter whether we apply the patch or not, and that's what the CP rework topic is about.
15:15 garycmartin silbe: Understood, thanks.
15:15 OK, so we all done for 1hr?
15:15 silbe garycmartin: the remaining issue is made more "interesting" by a bug in recent versions of GTK.
15:16 garycmartin: yep, let's do #endmeeting now.
15:16 christianmarcsch talk to you in an hour
15:16 garycmartin #endmeeting
15:16 meeting Meeting ended Sun Feb 13 15:16:17 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
15:16 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-13T14:01:43.html
15:16 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-02-13T14:01:43

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