| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 14:01 |
meeting |
Meeting started Sat Jan 8 14:01:34 2011 UTC. The chair is m_anish. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. |
| 14:01 |
|
Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting |
| 14:01 |
silbe |
Happy new year everyone! |
| 14:02 |
m_anish |
silbe, happy new yr! |
| 14:03 |
|
should we start with discussing what has everyone been up to and then move to py related topic? |
| 14:03 |
dfarning |
m_anish, will be leading the meetings for the next couple of week - as we will be driven by the need of PyEduca for dextrose:) |
| 14:03 |
silbe |
m_anish: sounds good to me. get back in sync and then start the open-ended topic. |
| 14:04 |
m_anish |
silbe, okay, lets start with you :) |
| 14:05 |
silbe |
As you've probably noticed, I announced the new review process Simon and I agreed on. Since there was no opposition, I consider it in place. |
| 14:06 |
dfarning |
silbe, yes that was a huge step in the right direction. |
| 14:07 |
silbe |
So we should be good now for "external" patches (as both Simon and I can ACK them); let's hope it works well for patches from Simon and me, too (since we need to ACK each others patches). ;) |
| 14:09 |
m_anish |
silbe, sounds great! what are your plans for the next 1-2 weeks! |
| 14:09 |
silbe |
Over the "holidays" I've worked on the Dextrose-3 patch set. Finally got wifi disconnect working yesterday. Quozl's patch wasn't enough, a recent question resp. the answer to it by somebody else on the NetworkManager list explained what we were doing wrong so I could now fix it. |
| 14:09 |
bernie |
silbe: i'm very happy. this fixes a very longstanding problem |
| 14:10 |
silbe |
There are a few outstanding issues, but most patches that I intend to land in mainline soon are in good shape now. |
| 14:11 |
|
This doesn't include the accessibility series yet. I haven't made my mind up on it as I don't know enough about what exactly it's expected to solve and why we need to patch Sugar for that. |
| 14:12 |
|
backup support is undecided as well |
| 14:12 |
bernie |
silbe: tch is now in the right place to ask! |
| 14:12 |
|
silbe: note that users in paraguay liked the accessibility patches very much |
| 14:13 |
silbe |
bernie, tch: Great! I'll get back to you soon. |
| 14:13 |
bernie |
silbe: especially the virtual keyboard and the fonts (for teachers who can't see well) |
| 14:13 |
m_anish |
just curious, is there a need for separate branches for the patches we intend to upstream and those we don't? |
| 14:13 |
silbe |
the plan for the near future is to continue working on the Dextrose-3 patch set# |
| 14:14 |
|
m_anish: we already have that branch: mainline/master. <egdr> |
| 14:16 |
|
bernie: there's a bit of confusion around virtual keyboards (what solutions are out there, who uses them, etc.). We should talk about that later, too. |
| 14:17 |
|
Collaboration is pretty broken in 0.90/0.91, BTW. I expect that it will take a specialist a few weeks full-time to clean it up. :-/ |
| 14:17 |
bernie |
silbe: yes, ideally we'd want something properly integrated with the gnome accessibility stack... but I don't think we have the resources to do the proper thing |
| 14:18 |
silbe |
bernie: actually I'd hope that we could just use something the Gnome people already wrote. But let's talk about that after the meeting. |
| 14:18 |
bernie |
silbe: without sayamindu, the current virtual keyboard, as limited as it might be, is probably going to be the best thing we have for a long time. |
| 14:18 |
silbe |
*hoped |
| 14:18 |
bernie |
silbe: oh, there's something we could reuse? GURAIT-TO! |
| 14:19 |
|
silbe: for collaboration, perhaps quozl would be interested? |
| 14:19 |
silbe |
bernie: it's just a hope. I don't know what actually exists. |
| 14:20 |
m_anish |
silbe, bernie +1 for after-meeting discussion :), tch can you let us in on your uy work :) |
| 14:20 |
silbe |
bernie: has he worked with Telepathy before? I spent some time myself debugging, but without knowledge of how Telepathy works, it's quite hard to figure out. |
| 14:23 |
|
let's talk about that later as well and continue with the meeting. I already took much more time than I wanted to. :) |
| 14:23 |
bernie |
silbe: I'm probably wrong... he's been hacking a lot on *networking*, not collaboration |
| 14:23 |
tch |
m_anish: of course, I will spend the next week at the plain ceibal offices. My main goal is to help them with their dextrose bug reports (since they have been doing real testing lately).. |
| 14:23 |
|
plan* |
| 14:24 |
|
m_anish: there are also more things i could do there, like convince them to stick with dextrose2 as close as possible ;) |
| 14:26 |
m_anish |
tch, do you think there are patches in uy that py dxo-2 builds could use? |
| 14:27 |
alsroot |
m_anish: any progress w/ gathering items for TODO-temp? |
| 14:27 |
tch |
m_anish: that is something i will find out there :) |
| 14:27 |
bernie |
tch: fantastic |
| 14:28 |
alsroot |
m_anish: tch was talking also about auto bugs reporting |
| 14:28 |
m_anish |
alsroot, alas, not much, i was supposed to get the list yesterday from rralcala (roberto), but didn't :/ |
| 14:28 |
|
alsroot, mukesh_dce and tch are exploring that :) |
| 14:28 |
tch |
yeah that is an important topic IMHO.. |
| 14:29 |
|
I am trying to figure out if we can use ABRT |
| 14:29 |
silbe |
tch: BTW, has there been any progress on your notifications stuff? |
| 14:29 |
bernie |
alsroot: I just hope we don't end up like this: http://lwn.net/Articles/422062/ |
| 14:29 |
tch |
silbe: yeah, i did not updated the feature page but i think i got a design (implemented) that won't hurt anyone haha |
| 14:30 |
alsroot |
bernie: in what case? |
| 14:30 |
m_anish |
silbe, fyi, we have the notification stuff integrated in dx2-py builds |
| 14:31 |
bernie |
alsroot: for receiving bug reports and ignoring them |
| 14:31 |
tch |
bernie: i think receiving them is a great step forward |
| 14:32 |
alsroot |
bernie: I was thinking about simple HTTP POST reports that need to be sorted by dextrose team |
| 14:32 |
m_anish |
bernie, alsroot tch if and when we have abrt up, we'll need someone to triage. without it, it wouldn't make much sense |
| 14:32 |
alsroot |
..like it weas done in Log |
| 14:32 |
bernie |
tch: as long as we don't give the users the false impression that we're going to do something about it |
| 14:32 |
|
tch: because, currently, we've not been working on fixing any of these bugs: http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/wiki/Dextrose |
| 14:32 |
silbe |
m_anish: hmm. I'm a bit worried that by exposing users to the current, not-yet-agreed-on design, we're forcing upstream to keep using it because users will complain about UI changes later. Similar to how OLPC is forcing us to keep supporting their new metadata storage format for external media... |
| 14:33 |
bernie |
alsroot: I think mtd was working on something like that |
| 14:33 |
|
or wadeb |
| 14:34 |
tch |
bernie: well, i think we are building our ground to start tackling some of them, :) |
| 14:34 |
bernie |
alsroot: http://logcollect.sugarlabs.org/ |
| 14:34 |
|
(broken) |
| 14:34 |
alsroot |
m_anish: tch: anyway, we need to have some kind list to duscuss priorities (and level of impls), m_anish: could you ping us (/me and tch) when you get new items |
| 14:34 |
tch |
bernie: but i understand your point and its valid. |
| 14:34 |
bernie |
tch: cool |
| 14:34 |
m_anish |
alsroot, +1 will ping |
| 14:35 |
silbe |
something abrt-like would probably be OK, as it only collects segfaults (which are almost always rather severe bugs). |
| 14:35 |
alsroot |
bernie: ^, particualar bugs reporting might be pretty different, I'd prefer to implement as simple as possible and accoring to the TODO items for 1 Feb dead line |
| 14:35 |
bernie |
silbe: do you have more info on this metadata thing? |
| 14:35 |
|
silbe: I had overlooked it |
| 14:35 |
m_anish |
silbe, i think we're just in the planning stages re: abrt and ther would be a mail to sugar-devel before we start to write code |
| 14:35 |
|
tch, what do you think? |
| 14:35 |
silbe |
as for easier reporting of other bugs, I too am worried about us drowning in reports. We already can't keep up with the existing reports. |
| 14:36 |
|
m_anish: the nice thing about the abrt stuff is that it's invisible to the user, so upstream doesn't need to care about it. |
| 14:36 |
bernie |
silbe: yup. we need someone to act as PM and start dispatching the bugs to developers for fixing them |
| 14:37 |
alsroot |
m_anish: for me abrt is looking overkill, we might need only python logs, but once more, it depends on TODO for 1 Feb |
| 14:37 |
silbe |
bernie: just take a look at the (somewhat) recent changes in sugar/mainline/sucrose-0.84 |
| 14:38 |
bernie |
silbe: in fedora, abrt has a UI and requires several (easy) steps to file a bug. like, for example, describing the context and approving the traceback for privacy issues |
| 14:38 |
silbe |
bernie: hmm. |
| 14:38 |
bernie |
silbe: so 0.84, like dextrose, contains non-upstreamed patches now? |
| 14:39 |
m_anish |
bernie, +1 for PM needed |
| 14:39 |
bernie |
silbe: not long ago, dsd was convinced that it wasn't the case |
| 14:41 |
silbe |
bernie: It seems so, yes. Though technically it's "upstream", but not in the latest development version, which makes it even worse. |
| 14:41 |
|
E.g. Debian packages new 0.84 each time Simon pushes one out. |
| 14:42 |
tch |
bernie: should we try to get some consensus about the automatic bug reporting? |
| 14:42 |
bernie |
silbe: maybe we should tell erikos not to do it then |
| 14:43 |
|
silbe: he can create a 0.84-olpc branch if he wants to |
| 14:43 |
|
SMParrish_mobile <SMParrish_mobile!~Android 32.160.108.47> has joined #sugar-meeting |
| 14:44 |
bernie |
tch: I'm in favor, but not now. it's a lot of work to integrate it, and we already don't have enough resources to fix all the bugs already in trac |
| 14:44 |
|
tch: also, see this: http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1439 |
| 14:45 |
|
tch: there was already some work done, but not with abrt |
| 14:45 |
m_anish |
bernie, +1, tch maybe keep it as low priority (time wise) |
| 14:46 |
tch |
bernie: i guess that is what alsroot was thinking about |
| 14:47 |
silbe |
tch, bernie: how about doing "debug" builds that automatically report everything to a build-time configured server (=> deployments can use their own server and forward to us). No UI and no privacy issues for regular users either. |
| 14:47 |
m_anish |
alsroot, can you sync us up on ur work of past few weeks :), then I guess we can discuss py for a bit :) |
| 14:48 |
bernie |
silbe: can we reuse wadeb's patches for logcollect? |
| 14:48 |
|
silbe: it seems easier to integrate than abrt to me |
| 14:49 |
alsroot |
is working on http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/P[…]form_Team/Roadmap plan, it doesn't relate directly to upcomming dextrose release |
| 14:49 |
bernie |
silbe: for example, abrt supports only bugzilla, we'd have to write a plugin for trac |
| 14:49 |
|
alsroot, silbe: are the two of you coordinating on these upstream efforts? |
| 14:49 |
silbe |
bernie: I would have expected abrt to be able to just run in daemon mode with minimal configuration. But maybe I'm expecting too much of it... |
| 14:49 |
alsroot |
bernie: for bugs reporting case? |
| 14:50 |
tch |
silbe: i was expecting the same.. |
| 14:50 |
bernie |
silbe: yes, it does... but then it needs to bring up a UI to file the actual bugs. |
| 14:50 |
silbe |
bernie: if you're talking about http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/P[…]form_Team/Roadmap , then no, I still don't get this "sweets" stuff. |
| 14:50 |
bernie |
silbe: it needs also packagekit to download the debuginfos |
| 14:50 |
SMParrish_mobile |
Silbe abrt is a work in progress i can talk to the devs at fudcon and see about trac support |
| 14:50 |
silbe |
bernie: so it can't just dump a tarball on some server? |
| 14:51 |
|
SMParrish_mobile: hey, nice to see you! |
| 14:51 |
tch |
SMParrish_mobile: :) |
| 14:51 |
alsroot |
bernie: in my mind pushing it to upstream is too early, we need to test it in the field and upcomming dextrose release is a good chance |
| 14:51 |
SMParrish_mobile |
thanks glad to be back |
| 14:51 |
m_anish |
silbe, it should be able to, otw, we don't use it :) |
| 14:51 |
silbe |
SMParrish_mobile: the simpler the better I'd say. No Trac or other special tool, just HTTP upload or email. |
| 14:51 |
bernie |
SMParrish_mobile: cool. our usecase is slightly different from the gnome desktop one. we want bug reports to be collected silently, and we might not need to download debuginfos, as we mostly have only python code. |
| 14:52 |
m_anish |
SMParrish_mobile, hola! |
| 14:52 |
bernie |
alsroot: would would have to be done? |
| 14:52 |
m_anish |
alsroot, btw, we're not targeting abrt for dx2 feb-1 release |
| 14:52 |
alsroot |
m_anish: for what date then, dfarning was talkink about 1 Feb |
| 14:52 |
bernie |
alsroot: dextrose2 is due in ~2 months, I'm afraid we missed this train |
| 14:52 |
silbe |
bernie: isn't abrt just for segfaults? Those happen at C level and need debug infos. |
| 14:53 |
bernie |
silbe: it also does python tracebacks |
| 14:53 |
silbe |
bernie: which would be another argument pro special "debug" builds |
| 14:53 |
m_anish |
alsroot, abrt is a good to have feature, not a necessity for dx2-py initial release IMHO |
| 14:53 |
bernie |
silbe: I actually wonder how it notices about those for processes running independently |
| 14:53 |
m_anish |
Can I start to discuss a bit abt py-roadmap? |
| 14:53 |
silbe |
bernie: interesting. All ones or just those that abort the process? |
| 14:53 |
bernie |
m_anish: yup |
| 14:54 |
alsroot |
m_anish: in my mind abrt is overkill, if we are getting core dumps it is something too bad, and most likely w/ sys libs not for our code |
| 14:54 |
bernie |
silbe: I think the latter |
| 14:54 |
silbe |
m_anish: sorry. We'll discuss abrt later. |
| 14:54 |
dfarning |
SMParrish_mobile, will restart as PM. he took some time off for family reasons. We will work together next week to ensure a smoother hand off in case of unexpected absences. |
| 14:54 |
SMParrish_mobile |
Bernie abrt is good at catching crashes in c code not sure hiw good the python support is atm |
| 14:54 |
alsroot |
m_anish: just posting activity logs via HTTP should be pretty enough and easy to implement to have it in dextrose-2 |
| 14:55 |
m_anish |
alsroot, makes sense |
| 14:55 |
|
anyway, re py, the schools here open on 22nd feb... |
| 14:55 |
bernie |
silbe: for example: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/sh[…]bug.cgi?id=666928 |
| 14:56 |
m_anish |
initially we were planning on having a release on 1st feb, have it tested by the edu team/formadores/kids in 1-1.5 weeks... and we fixing the issues that crop up then... |
| 14:56 |
bernie |
alsroot: would you like to work on reviving wadeb's logcollect patch then? it's here: http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1439 |
| 14:56 |
alsroot |
m_anish: anyway, I'm waiting for you ping to discuss dates and TODO for dextrose-2 and prioritize tasks |
| 14:57 |
|
satellit_ is now known as satellit_afk |
| 14:57 |
silbe |
alsroot: FWIW, it's only those severe cases I'd be interested in in the first place. We already have enough other bugs to work on. And sadly, crashes actually still seem to happen sometimes for me (though I'm not sure exactly what is crashing and how, i.e. if it's even something abrt would catch). :-/ |
| 14:57 |
m_anish |
but it makes much more sense to have 2-3 iterations of test-release than one in terms of catching bugs (or have iterations in parallel) |
| 14:58 |
alsroot |
silbe: for core dumps we can all time switch to more personal/detailed workflow |
| 14:58 |
|
..to work w/ bugs reporter |
| 14:58 |
m_anish |
so we're actually making a release on this tuesday and have them tested out... meanwhile i'll get a list of priority task soon that we need to fix |
| 14:59 |
tch |
m_anish: +1 |
| 14:59 |
bernie |
silbe: I think you're hitting the python gc bug. I have reported it a dozen times with abrt but nobody cares: |
| 14:59 |
m_anish |
tch's notification, yum updater, microformat upd would be major additions to the build on top of current dx2 |
| 14:59 |
bernie |
https://bugzilla.redhat.com/bu[…]sification=Fedora |
| 14:59 |
m_anish |
(plus 2 patches from tch ) |
| 14:59 |
alsroot |
bernie: yup, something like #1439 but maybe for dextrose it might be more implicit |
| 15:00 |
tch |
m_anish: we also need to include my script to disable the mesh after sleep/week :) |
| 15:00 |
m_anish |
I plan to keep a TODO-py page on wiki.sl.o |
| 15:00 |
silbe |
has anyone tried pgf's kernel patch for disabling mesh altogether? |
| 15:00 |
m_anish |
also, slightly unrelated, maybe we need to review http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Dextrose/TODO |
| 15:00 |
|
or http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Dextrose/TODO-temp |
| 15:01 |
alsroot |
m_anish: it act I was thinking about that when we will get more TODO items to work on |
| 15:01 |
|
..in fact |
| 15:01 |
bernie |
m_anish: if there's no information loss, you can rename TODO-temp on top of the old TODO page |
| 15:01 |
m_anish |
alsroot, yup |
| 15:02 |
|
bernie, there's no info loss (only a repeat entry is removed) |
| 15:02 |
bernie |
m_anish: ok then, let's replace the page. I think you did a great work, btw |
| 15:03 |
m_anish |
bernie, will remove/replace, I guess that TODO is the dextrose(-3) roadmap? |
| 15:03 |
|
oh, one more thing... |
| 15:04 |
|
since we have the yum updater up we'll be having 2 (or three) repos : release, testing etc. |
| 15:05 |
silbe |
BTW, we need to involve upstream early on for UI changes. We had too much wasted effort because upstream didn't agree with what Dextrose came up with. |
| 15:05 |
m_anish |
and need to figure out a process to move rpm's from testing to repo, and align it with dx-mainline |
| 15:05 |
|
s/testing to repo/testing to release/ |
| 15:05 |
bernie |
m_anish: yes... we could also rename TODO to Roadmap... but roadmaps need to have dates attached to them imho |
| 15:06 |
|
m_anish: like alsroot's roadmap: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/P[…]form_Team/Roadmap |
| 15:06 |
|
m_anish: or our roadmap for dextrose 1: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Dextrose/Roadmap |
| 15:06 |
tch |
silbe: if we can speed up the time required to get a consensus, sure. |
| 15:08 |
|
silbe: the backup thing is a great example, it took months just to not get a consensus.. |
| 15:08 |
silbe |
tch: our Design Team consists of volunteers with unrelated day jobs. So it's expected that it takes a fair amount of time. That's why it's so important to talk about UI changes as early as possible. |
| 15:08 |
m_anish |
bernie, we could perhaps plan a roadmap (but our timeline is quite short, schools open 22 feb) |
| 15:08 |
bernie |
silbe: until now, upstream was very dysfunctional and disconnected from the needs of deployments. there was no way dextrose or olpc could get something designed and implemented while working with upstream. |
| 15:09 |
|
silbe: now, with you and erikos on the helm, I'm confident that something will change |
| 15:09 |
tch |
silbe: yeah, i understand that, is just that sometimes deployments can't just sit and wait until consensus arrives, they will just do it.. |
| 15:09 |
bernie |
silbe: for UI design, I'm still very dissatisfied. look at my proposal for a super-trivial about box: it's been stuck for 2 weeks already. |
| 15:09 |
tch |
silbe: and we need to take that into account if we want them to keep them together with mainstream |
| 15:10 |
silbe |
bernie: re. the about box, consider that the past two weeks were "holidays", i.e. most people were busy with other stuff. |
| 15:10 |
bernie |
silbe: making developers wait weeks on consensus is a productivity killer, we must stop doing this in sugar-devel. |
| 15:11 |
m_anish |
what i'm hoping eventually is that we can use the testing branch to beta test new features (that _may_ not be requirements from the edu team) and keeping this branch shared across more than one deployment |
| 15:11 |
bernie |
silbe: true. I just pinged the RFC to see if something moves |
| 15:11 |
dfarning |
before we worry to much about design let's give silbe and simon time to prove that patch management is work |
| 15:11 |
bernie |
m_anish: hopefully, yes. |
| 15:11 |
alsroot |
bernie: "we must stop doing this", /me does excatly that all time :) |
| 15:12 |
silbe |
bernie: in general, I think we'd be much better off if we discussed it early with upstream and _then_ implement it, instead of the other way round. We don't necessarily need perfect consensus, but we should at least agree on the general way before it's already implemented and too hard to change. |
| 15:12 |
dfarning |
for the short time dextrose will differ from upstream.... we will start working with OLPC/SL to fill the UI designer gap. |
| 15:12 |
bernie |
alsroot: :) |
| 15:13 |
m_anish |
is done with is list of py topics :) |
| 15:13 |
bernie |
silbe: I agree. in the past, starting UI design discussions failed all the time... now it may be different. |
| 15:13 |
silbe |
dfarning: the problem with OLPC/SL taking over the design job is that we get inconsistent with each other and force upstream to take our stuff because users get used to it. |
| 15:14 |
bernie |
dfarning: yes, that would help a lot. |
| 15:15 |
silbe |
anyway, I don't expect everything to get perfect overnight. All I want for now is that we start UI design early on (way before a developer starts working on a task!) and try to get upstream involved, even if it doesn't end up reaching consensus. |
| 15:15 |
bernie |
silbe: true |
| 15:16 |
|
silbe: true^2 |
| 15:16 |
dfarning |
silbe, yes we still need to figure it out.... but as long as we are moving forward we can work out problems as we go. |
| 15:16 |
silbe |
great! m_anish, sorry for interrupting again (it was at least triggered by the TODO list ;) ). |
| 15:17 |
m_anish |
silbe, bernie could we elaborate more details on the TODO wiki page and have them run through sugar-devel (something like batch reviewing or UI proposals)? |
| 15:17 |
|
s/or UI/for UI/ |
| 15:17 |
silbe |
m_anish: sounds good. let's review the list on IRC first and dextrose/sugar-devel later. |
| 15:17 |
|
(but after the meeting ;) ) |
| 15:18 |
bernie |
(for the record, I think that the dextrose team always did involve upstream early, but failed to get consensus and ended up doing our own thing instead of blocking forever) |
| 15:18 |
m_anish |
silbe, +1 |
| 15:18 |
bernie |
silbe: +1 |
| 15:18 |
m_anish |
bernie, true! |
| 15:18 |
tch |
bernie: can't agree more :P haha |
| 15:18 |
m_anish |
(do we have more topics to discuss?) |
| 15:20 |
|
011 |
| 15:20 |
|
010 |
| 15:20 |
|
001 |
| 15:20 |
|
000 |
| 15:20 |
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#endmeeting |
| 15:20 |
meeting |
Meeting ended Sat Jan 8 15:20:20 2011 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4) |
| 15:20 |
|
Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-08T14:01:34.html |
| 15:20 |
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Log: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]11-01-08T14:01:34 |