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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2010-09-14 15:16:44

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15:16 sugaroid Meeting started Tue Sep 14 15:16:44 2010 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
15:16 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
15:16 meeting Meeting started at 11:17 UTC. The chair is walterbender.
15:16 Commands Available: #TOPIC, #IDEA, #ACTION, #AGREED, #LINK
15:16 walterbender hello all...
15:17 welcome all
15:17 Here's what I have on my list:
15:17 1. the upcoming election
15:17 2. the upcoming release -- just a quick status
15:17 mchua has a hard stop at noon
15:17 walterbender 3. local labs -- just a quick update
15:18 4. licensing request
15:18 Any other topics?
15:18 #topic election status
15:19 lfaroane is taking care of updating the member list
15:19 I have been soliciting candidates... so far, just one, SMParrish
15:19 cjb walterbender: hm, perhaps open the candidates up to a wiki page rather than mail?
15:19 walterbender maybe we can all agree to shake the bushes to get a few more? we have three positions to fill.
15:20 cjb dunno if it'll make a difference, but it's what we've done before
15:20 CanoeBerry cjb: agreed
15:20 walterbender cjb: I"l add it to the wiki.
15:20 hey, those of you whose terms are expiring, will you run again? (please?)
15:20 cjb hm, haven't finished deciding yet
15:21 (everyone whose term *isn't* up is continuing on, right?)
15:21 CanoeBerry i assume that me, cjb and Sean Daly? or something like that?
15:21 walterbender cjb: a few more weeks until we need to finalize the ballot
15:21 cjb CanoeBerry: we're the three with terms expiring, yes
15:21 walterbender CanoeBerry: yes, I think you, sean and chris
15:22 mchua Maybe it would help to articulate responsibilities/time commitment expected of board members, now that we have a slightly better idea of what that is?
15:22 Easier to visualize yourself in a job description that's partially fleshed in.
15:22 CanoeBerry did someone check that? i thought only 3 people had 2 year terms, but my memory could be going :)
15:22 walterbender CanoeBerry: yes. next year, 4 positions turn over
15:22 cjb CanoeBerry: yes, I checked it
15:22 CanoeBerry thx all!
15:23 walterbender mchua: in your copious free time, could you write a paragragh?
15:23 ^graph
15:23 mchua: I'll add a stub to the wiki home page
15:23 mchua walterbender: #action me :D
15:24 walterbender: Okeydokey, I'll tackle this after meetings today.
15:24 walterbender #action Walter and Mel will add a solicitation/description of the SLOB membership
15:25 anything else we need to worry about re the election?
15:25 would love more representation from deployments
15:25 mchua Voting setup? I don't recall if that's been discussed, but just making sure someone's on it.
15:25 (infrastructure-wise, I mean)
15:25 walterbender: Hrm, have the calls-for-candidates been translated into Spanish, etc?
15:26 walterbender mchua: I think Bernie put the word out... will check
15:26 mchua: I'll double check that Luke will handle the vote as well.
15:27 OK... moving on
15:27 #topic 0.90
15:28 erikos has done a great job pulling the release together on a tighter than usual schedule
15:28 we hit code freeze yesterday and release notes are starting to come together: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.90/Ntes
15:28 ^Notes
15:28 CanoeBerry aside: kudos to those who ran the elections last year, thanks Luke & all for helping us all here.
15:29 walterbender are there any questions/concerns re 0.90?
15:30 I'd also like to ack cjb re the new OLPC release as well as the Dextrose team.
15:30 mchua Not from me, I heard from pbrobinson the other day that 0.90 is all set to ship in the next release of Fedora (very beginning of November)
15:30 walterbender great stiff
15:30 ^stuff
15:30 cannot type today
15:31 cjb walterbender: Looks good to me!  I think we'll be backporting most of these to our stable release, which is a good sign that it's useful/needed work.
15:31 walterbender I don't know if everyone is following the discussion about the potential flag day for the new GNOME and Python versions
15:31 cjb I like the "recent additions" for activities, would love to see that more often
15:32 walterbender cjb: I did that for 0.88 too...
15:32 cjb: the 0.90 notes are far from complete...
15:33 cjb *nod*
15:34 walterbender It is worth noting the extent to which Sugar has been working downstream... more fluid IMHO
15:34 mchua +1, I've been noticing a lot more upstream/downstream bridging from SL this release cycle
15:35 which is a HUGE awesome plus - maybe slows development down a bit in the short term, but does amazing things for us long-term to have folks be more in sync.
15:35 walterbender tip of the hat to our partners...
15:36 It suggests a different role for Sugar Labs over time... more focused.
15:36 and more opportunities for partners/collaborators
15:37 which brings me to the next topic...
15:37 CanoeBerry Prior Topic: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/O[…]9-2010-candidates :)
15:37 walterbender #topic local labs
15:38 I think Ceibal Jam will be formally applying for Local Lab status.
15:38 just a heads up...
15:39 I think the role of a local lab is coming more into focus as the deployments mature...
15:40 also, there is a renewed effort at OLPC to put together a more detailed deployment guide.
15:40 our growing strength as a community is in the leaves...
15:41 now for a discussion...
15:41 #topic looming license request
15:42 I've had some second-hand conversations with a tablet manufacturer who is interested in Sugar
15:42 and being able to use the Sugar brand
15:43 It is somewhat complicated by the fact that they are an Android shop, so it may be more branding than code...
15:43 cjb that is complicated :)
15:43 walterbender in any case, I need some guidance in terms of how to proceed...
15:43 cjb are they going to ship the Sugar code, or not?
15:44 walterbender (1) would we consider letting people brand Sugar activities ported to Android as being Sugar acitvities?
15:44 cjb I think it would be a bad marketing move to allow companies to display the Sugar brand on devices that aren't actually running Sugar; that makes the brand a bit meaningless.  The Marketing team's a better place to ask that question, though.
15:44 walterbender cjb: I agree, but want to clarify what it means to be running Sugar
15:44 cjb if Android was going to have journal and collaboration support, it would be difficult
15:45 walterbender cjb: for example, if they implement a journal, sharing (in a way that is cross compatible, and the Sugar "look" is that running Sugar?
15:45 cjb walterbender: and view source?  :)
15:45 walterbender (and of course, view source)
15:46 mchua needs to ghost and get ready to teach a class
15:46 ping my nick if you need a vote
15:46 cjb I guess it's hard for me to answer the thought experiment because I can't imagine that this could actually be possible on Android.
15:46 mchua but I'll be reading less actively for the remainder of the hour.
15:46 walterbender mchua: I don't think we'll be voting on anything today... thankt
15:46 cjb: I want to explore how far they can/would go.
15:47 cjb 'k
15:47 walterbender cjb: at some level, I think the Sugar ideas getting into more places is more important... but at some point, it probably is not Sugar
15:47 right now, it is a pretty binary decision
15:48 and maybe it needs to stay that way
15:48 cjb yeah, I think marketing folks would approve of binary
15:48 at least Sean would, he's always very worried about brand dilution/confusion
15:48 walterbender the other place I need guidance is on a licensing fee model... right now the model is also binary
15:49 Pure Sugar and no fee
15:49 or it is not Sugar and no fee
15:49 cjb mm, yeah.  again, it's marketing strategy, which the rest of us have no particular competence at.
15:50 walterbender it is also a business decision
15:50 cjb if the marketing team said it's most important that we (a) have more money, and (b) have the word Sugar appear in as many places as possible with our logo, regardless of what it means, then my answer would be totally different
15:50 (but I haven't been hearing anything like that so far)
15:50 walterbender cjb: I haven't heard them say that either
15:52 and I suppose that what happens with individual Sugar Activities is strictly up to the activity developers...
15:52 cjb 'k.  yeah, it's complicated.  it does seem like "no sugar, no license" is a basic requirement of maintaining the brand, so that makes the binary decision sound sensible.
15:53 walterbender e.g., porting a collection of Sugar Activities en mass to Java/Android
15:54 cjb I don't think there's any decision there
15:54 it's free software; someone could just do it
15:54 they'd just have to be a bit careful about what they can call the result
15:54 most activity names are not trademarked, so they could usually keep the same name
15:55 walterbender exactly... and from the discussion today, it would not be called Sugar
15:55 cjb right
15:56 walterbender but I do want to explore the extent to which we could ack a Sugar-like environment on a different platform...
15:56 there is real interest out there
15:56 cjb we could define an API
15:56 walterbender and it could be a way to get into the hands of more kids...
15:56 cjb journal, collaboration, view source.. maybe even require dbus, although that would rule out Android I think
15:57 and say that if you've implemented everything in the core API, you can apply for a TM license for the result
15:57 walterbender some of the look and feel is perhaps more in the gray...
15:57 for example, could someone re-implement the Frame?
15:57 cjb sure
15:57 walterbender to be more suitable for touch?
15:57 cjb we didn't patent it
15:58 copyright law lets them reimplement it independently
15:58 walterbender I mean, would that mean they couldn't call it Sugar any more?
15:58 cjb oh, ok
15:58 yes, under the current TM policy AIUI
15:58 walterbender I mean replce the Frame with something else...
15:59 cjb the current trademark policy only allows for minor packaging/distro/bugfix changes and translations, before you stop having an automatic license
15:59 so they would have to apply for a trademark if they changed the UI
15:59 walterbender automatic, yes...
15:59 cjb and then we'd work out whether to grant it by looking at their work
15:59 and the earlier stuff would apply, I suppose -- if it's not generally compatible with other Sugar activities, it seems tough to call it Sugar, because that's confusing what Sugar is and what it isn't
15:59 walterbender I guess it is always going to be case by case... but I would like to be able to give them guidance
16:01 I'll do some more homework.
16:01 cjb yep.  so, I think the core API idea I just proposed is the most objective measure we're going to come up with easily.
16:02 walterbender cjb: agreed
16:02 cjb we should also consider whether it's a requirement that the new platform be able to run unmodified Sugar-python activities
16:02 because if it can't, that leads to great confusion about whether a particular machine "has Sugar or not" that doesn't help anyone
16:02 walterbender cjb: that is going to be hard on Android...
16:02 cjb until it gets better python support, yeah
16:03 (you can already write scripts in Python on Android, but not fully-fledged apps)
16:03 walterbender but if they had equivalents of Fructose...
16:03 in Java
16:04 and if the journal entries transferred
16:04 seems like a reasonable compromise...
16:04 we implemented Sugar in Python, but the core ideas are not Python
16:04 and the look and feel is not Python
16:04 cjb yep, it's an reasonable thing to discuss.
16:05 obviously their e.g. Pippy journal entries won't transfer
16:05 walterbender :)
16:05 cjb: did you see Tony Forster's Pippy slide rule?
16:05 cjb ooh, no, didn't see a Pippy one
16:06 walterbender cjb: every time I write a new activity, he writes Turtle Art and Pippy versions :)
16:06 cjb hehe
16:07 walterbender I do like the design-your-own slide feature in the new version of Slide Rule... inspired by Sugar
16:08 we digress... anything else for today?
16:09 CanoeBerry Just a reminder that we have ~50 RSVP's for SF!
16:09 Folks should definitely try to join up:
16:09 walterbender #action walter will report back on the potential Android port
16:09 CanoeBerry: I keep plugging it in the DIgest :)
16:09 CanoeBerry http://olpcSF.org/CommunitySummit2010
16:09 Thanks Walter.
16:09 walterbender CanoeBerry: alas, I am in .py
16:10 CanoeBerry I want several session to have strong remote participation.
16:10 Will have to finalize this will Sameer & all.
16:11 walterbender ok... ending meeting in 3
16:11 2
16:11 CanoeBerry In any case, wiki details are emerging today, a much stronger web site should appear (above link) within the week of so.
16:11 walterbender 1
16:11 #end-meeting
16:11 #endmeeting
16:11 sugaroid Meeting ended Tue Sep 14 16:11:38 2010 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
16:11 Minutes: http://jita.sugarlabs.org/suga[…]-14T15:16:44.html
16:11 Log:     http://jita.sugarlabs.org/suga[…]10-09-14T15:16:44

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