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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2010-06-14 15:02:00

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Time Nick Message
15:02 pbrobinson is here.... promise
15:02 mchua is here
15:02 sdziallas #chair mchua pbrobinson sdziallas
15:02 #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]k_meetings#Agenda
15:02 #topic Sugar on a Stick Meeting -- 2010/06/14
15:02 mchua May I suggest a time limit on the choosing of the name? ;)
15:02 So we don't bikeshed.
15:03 sdziallas grins. Yes.
15:03 mchua thinks we really just need something to call it, and if it's *that* terrible we can switch.
15:03 sdziallas Well, let's start: everybody, the agenda is above. please have a look at it.
15:03 mchua For reference of people reading logs...
15:03 #info Agenda item #1: Choosing name and colors
15:03 #info Agenda item #2: Feature proposal http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]lt-bookmarks.html submitted for consideration
15:04 #info Agenda item #3: dev-test-release cycle - we need one
15:04 #info Agenda item #4: mtd: "someone should just ask sdziallas and pbrobinson nicely if they'd mind terribly if someone suggested some patches / post-processing scripts for the soas spin .iso and promised to help maintain those patches / scripts for at least a few releases."
15:04 Any others not on that list?
15:04 sdziallas Nothing from my side -- anybody else?
15:04 mchua o/
15:04 sdziallas #topic Colors and Codename for v.4
15:05 mchua #info Agenda item #5: Figuring out what people want to work on for the v4 release cycle of SoaS
15:05 (sorry, too slow a typist today :)
15:05 JT4sugar Communication to Actvity Developers about SoaS Feature process has been fully understood
15:05 sdziallas that's alright. I'll note that Sean doesn't seem to be here (re: codenames & colors).
15:06 JT4sugar: ah, that's awesome!
15:06 looks at the list of proposed names.
15:06 mchua Actually, let's loop back to that - I'd like to hear more about it, JT4sugar
15:06 sdziallas I'd like to spend less than 10 minutes on that.
15:06 mchua #info Agenda item #6: Communication to Activity developers about feature process
15:06 starts timer
15:06 pbrobinson wonders if he can add Mangolassi to the names list?
15:06 sdziallas pbrobinson: go ahead ;)
15:07 mchua pbrobinson: Oh, I *so* totally support this.
15:07 mtd mchua: what're the list of names?  what do you want us to discuss?
15:07 sdziallas mtd: they are on the agenda page
15:08 pbrobinson: mmmmmmm :)
15:08 JT4sugar I understand that it's posted in Wiki and has been discussed in threads but a proactive reach out by SoaS team to Avtivity Developers I think should somehow be built into process-A proactive approach
15:08 mchua JT4sugar: Yep, we'll get to that - it's on the agenda now, right now we're talking about the v4 name.
15:08 JT4sugar mchua, Ok
15:09 sdziallas So.
15:10 We've a couple of proposals there. Cloudberry is probably out for v.4, and so is Alphonso.
15:10 mchua Due to reasons that have been discussed in the soas thread about v4 naming - I'll try to find a link.
15:11 sdziallas (the former one will be reserved for later releases, the latter one has gotten negative feedback on list.)
15:11 mchua: thanks!
15:11 mchua #info Cloudberry and Alphonso are out, see mailing list thread for rationale
15:11 #link http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]-June/001402.html
15:11 sdziallas I'll info it in the... you did so already ;)
15:12 Alright, so let's do this: Does anybody object against Mangolassi?
15:12 mchua Would anyone prefer another name?
15:12 pbrobinson LOL... what happened to the other suggestions?
15:13 JT4sugar With the possible eye to Cloudberry for V5 a name thats transitions nicely between Mirabelle and Cloudberry. The only thing on list presently seems to be Gooseberry. Maybe Sequoyah, but that seems to move in whole different direction.
15:13 mchua JT4sugar: How so?
15:13 pbrobinson thinks Gooseberry is spelt wrong
15:13 is also sick of berry names
15:14 sdziallas pbrobinson: I'm asking if anybody has other preferences... they are not out, just... walking through this quickly. :)
15:14 mchua likes Vanilla, but knows the connotations with plainness are probably not going to go over well with Marketing
15:14 sdziallas I agree, I'm -1 to *-berry for v.4.
15:14 mchua Also, talk about a boring color scheme. :)
15:14 sdziallas (especially when me might come back to it for v.5)
15:15 satellit__ *lilikoi is very regional but is Hawaiian Passion Fruit : )
15:15 mchua sdziallas: Mirabelle is also pretty regional. :)
15:15 hadn't heard of mirabelles before. apparently they're only in france.
15:15 http://www.google.com/images?q=lilikoi
15:15 sdziallas mchua: that idea came up in erikos' apartment - walterbender might recall :)
15:16 mchua http://www.google.com/images?h[…]3A1&sa=1&q=jambul
15:16 pbrobinson is that not just what's also known as passion fruit
15:16 satellit__ * 2 colors
15:16 walterbender sdziallas: Mirabelle came up because erikos served us some bread and jam :)
15:16 sdziallas walterbender: yup, right :) (hah, good times)
15:17 mchua We're running short on time for this. It sounds like the remaining options are lilikoi, jambul, mangolassi, and sequoyah.
15:17 JT4sugar mchua, Strawberry, Blueberry, Mirabelle, Sequoyah? A sequoyah conjures up images of strength and standing tall which may go to the underlying stability which may be a good thing
15:17 mchua we lose the ice cream flavors theme, though. :)
15:17 not that we're bound to that.
15:17 sdziallas mchua: yup, indeed. (re: time)
15:17 satellit__ * close to Toyota though  first image I get in mind
15:17 sdziallas alright, how about this: we take these... four and move the convo on the list?
15:18 pbrobinson JT4sugar: only conjures up images if you know what it is
15:18 JT4sugar: I also wonder how well it translates to other languages
15:18 sdziallas alright, we're running out of time on this.
15:19 #info naming convo to be continued on-list. remaining suggestoins are: lilikoi, jambul, magolassi and squoyah
15:19 satellit__ * really up to sdz to decide this
15:19 pbrobinson sdziallas: can you summ up the options and we should then vote?
15:19 satellit__: ah no!
15:19 sdziallas pbrobinson: options listed above :)
15:20 pbrobinson sdziallas: noted once I hit enter :-D
15:20 mchua sdziallas: which would *you* pick, more to the point?
15:21 sdziallas mchua: these are all really good ones. I personally like mangolassi (which has a typo above) because it doesn't converge (imo) too much or too few from the previous schemes.
15:21 mchua so your old question was a good one - any objections?
15:21 has none
15:22 sdziallas: ...it sounds like there are no objections.
15:22 sdziallas wonders where the crowd went.
15:22 pbrobinson has none
15:22 satellit__ none
15:22 sdziallas pbrobinson: I'd be surprised. It's your proposal, after all. :)
15:22 pbrobinson :-P
15:23 sdziallas JT4sugar: how about you?
15:23 JT4sugar sdziallas, Mangolassi could work if unsure Push four to list and ask for additional suggestions-Worldwide product name is on table
15:24 satellit__ * conjures up island girl eating a mango...: )
15:25 pbrobinson so what is the final decision?
15:25 sdziallas alright, I'd suggest lets approve this and get it out. if too many folks complain, we can always readjust.
15:25 mchua +1
15:25 satellit__ +1
15:25 mchua sdziallas: doooo it.
15:25 pbrobinson +1
15:25 JT4sugar +1
15:25 sdziallas #agreed SoaS v.4 will be code-named Mangolassi
15:26 thank you everybody for this :)
15:26 mchua #note This also solves the problem of what to do for celebratory drinks at the launch party. :)
15:26 NEXT!
15:26 sdziallas #topic revised browse default bookmarks feature
15:26 #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]lt-bookmarks.html
15:26 mchua #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/F[…]lt-bookmarks.html
15:26 jinx.
15:26 #undo
15:26 sdziallas mchua: jinx!
15:27 mchua there we go.
15:27 pbrobinson I approve of the idea in general but the feature itself need to be fleshed out more to cover the exact things that it wishes to achieve
15:27 JT4sugar sdziallas, You may want to put out email that says a preliminary decision on V4 name is Mangolassi and gauge the feedback if good then were all set.
15:27 satellit__ I updated it after IRC discussion today
15:28 mchua satellit__ has accepted this for consideration as a feature - it's the first one to go through the process, which begs the question of where we set the bar for initial feature approval.
15:28 types slowly.
15:28 also approves of the idea, but doesn't think the feature page is quite there yet. For one, it needs a clearer description of the feature as separate from the implementation. ;)
15:28 pbrobinson I agree with mchua. Should we delay the final decision until next week to allow for the feature to be ready
15:28 sdziallas JT4sugar: yeah, that's probably fair. well, at least if too many folks complain. I'll work on the phrasing after the meeting. :)
15:29 nods.
15:29 mchua satellit__: You have some feedback from mtd, pbrobinson, myeslf, possibly others - is it clear what needs to be worked on between now and next week?
15:29 pbrobinson thinks that we need a "Ready for approval" category or similar
15:29 sdziallas #action somebody to create wiki categories
15:29 anybody?
15:29 mchua pbrobinson: I've been doing that by adding the feature to the agenda for the meeting
15:29 satellit__ yes I will update it
15:29 mchua can do wiki gardening, sure
15:29 satellit__: Ok. We're in #sugar if you have questions, and happy to keep doing the feedback thing. ;)
15:29 sdziallas mchua: well, whatever works best for you :) I mean setting it on the agenda is fine, too.
15:30 mchua satellit__: You *are* doing the right thing - this is all part of the process of conversation and refinement.
15:30 satellit__ thanks
15:30 mchua sdziallas: Yeah, I'll take care of getting us some queue mechanism. That's fast.
15:30 pbrobinson has added a late agenda item
15:30 sdziallas mchua: awesome, thanks!
15:30 #note that someone is mchua
15:30 pbrobinson #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Sugar_0.90
15:30 satellit__ mchua: you helped me clarify ideas...thanks
15:31 mchua So are we #agreed the browse.html does not pass this time but is encouraged to revise and resubmit according to the feedback that's already been provided on the feature proposal's wiki page?
15:31 sdziallas #agreed revised browse page feature is being refined until next week's meeting
15:31 mchua: apparently we just did. or... does anybody object?
15:31 (sorry, I'm trying to keep us in time.)
15:31 mchua oh. nah, I think we're ready to move on then. :)
15:32 sdziallas alright.
15:32 let's throw pbrobinson's feature in here
15:32 #topic Sugar 0.90 Feature
15:32 #link http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Features/Sugar_0.90
15:32 mchua updates the wiki agenda with our last few agenda items for the day in the meantime
15:32 JT4sugar mchua, On the larger activity ecosystem from the feedback you have received from the Activity community do they feel process in place is a reachable objective?
15:32 mchua JT4sugar: Not on that agenda item yet, please hold.
15:33 sdziallas I think the Sugar 0.90 one is a no-brainer.
15:33 We could certainly get the wiki page a little more shiny, but this ain't a blocker for me.
15:33 pbrobinson sdziallas: agreed. I'm going to flesh the above link fleshed out to primarily use it as a "This is what a feature request looks like"
15:34 mchua looking at the feature request
15:34 (I think it's also a no-brainer, but want to make sure the request has everything)
15:34 sdziallas is +1 (given that we'll revisit this over the time, due Sugar's upstream changes, e.g. if upstream roadmap changes)
15:34 mchua It's got all the basics as far as I'm concerned. +1.
15:34 sdziallas alright.
15:34 mchua It's clear in terms of objective and owner and route to accomplishment.
15:34 sdziallas pbrobinson: I bet you're +1, too. Count me in for help, btw. :)
15:35 #agreed Sugar 0.90 Feature is APPROVED
15:35 moving on.
15:35 mchua: uh, where did the dev-release cycle on the agenda go?
15:35 pbrobinson sdziallas: I can't really approve my own feature!
15:35 mchua sdziallas: refresh, I made a wiki editing mistake
15:35 all fixed now.
15:35 sdziallas pbrobinson: well, okay. yeah ;)
15:36 mchua: cool!
15:36 mchua pbrobinson: that's why we need a majority of 3. ;)
15:36 sdziallas #topic dev-test-release cycle
15:36 mchua: you were talking about this?
15:36 mchua Yes. The short version is "I want one."
15:36 sdziallas mchua: That's cool. How do we get one? :D
15:36 mchua satellit__ did some great testing last cycle but we didn't have a good workflow between QA and dev so a lot of the work didn't get used, which I think is unfortunate
15:36 Right.
15:36 Getting to that.
15:37 We've got daily builds, right?
15:37 pbrobinson mchua: agreed! I don't want to see people asking for features the night before hard freeze like last itme
15:37 sdziallas mchua: yup.
15:37 mchua pbrobinson: Oh yes.
15:37 sdziallas pbrobinson: +1
15:37 pbrobinson s/itme/time
15:37 sdziallas #link http://alt.fedoraproject.org/p[…]ly-composes/soas/
15:37 satellit__ http://people.sugarlabs.org/Tg[…]de-Soas-tests.ods
15:37 mchua Now, weekly testing cycles seem like a reasonable thing to me, given that the Welly testers (who want to help, and who we want to tap) meet every Saturday.
15:37 satellit__ * has activity tests f13 and f14 rawhide
15:37 mchua In order to have a dev/test/release cycle, I think we need a few things.
15:38 pbrobinson mchua: agreed
15:38 sdziallas mchua: +1, again :)
15:38 mchua 1) An agreed-upon image each week for testers to attack (the daily build on $datetime of each week, for instance)
15:38 satellit__ +1
15:38 mchua 2) An agreed-upon set of test cases for them to execute (iow, the "test plan" thing we haven't had before)
15:38 pbrobinson mchua: +1
15:38 mchua 3) An agreed-upon place and format for the results from running those test cases to be reported to
15:39 and finally
15:39 satellit__ * on real sticks not just jbuild or git
15:39 mchua satellit__: ...for some of the test cases - not necessarily all.
15:39 JT4sugar mchua, In this area if you build a good communication strategy-meaning right info to right people through pushing out info to them-should end up with good dev-test-release cycle
15:40 mchua 4) An agreed-upon $datetime each week by which all test results for that week will be submitted - so that the development team has a chance to look at those results and revise the build before the next test image goes out.
15:40 I will #info those.
15:40 #info In order to have a dev/test/release cycle, I think we need a few things.
15:40 #info 1) An agreed-upon image each week for testers to attack (the daily build on $datetime of each week, for instance)
15:40 #info 2) An agreed-upon set of test cases for them to execute (iow, the "test plan" thing we haven't had before)
15:40 sdziallas :mchua: I think this is all very sane. Can we make (1) a lettermelater with a link?
15:40 mchua #info 3) An agreed-upon place and format for the results from running those test cases to be reported to
15:40 #info 4) An agreed-upon $datetime each week by which all test results for that week will be submitted - so that the development team has a chance to look at those results and revise the build before the next test image goes out.
15:40 sdziallas: We can. All of the datetime reminders can be sent via automated email.
15:40 sdziallas mchua: awesome!
15:41 #idea send all datetime reminders via automated email
15:41 pbrobinson JT4sugar: comms channel is the SoaS mailing list.
15:41 mchua Given that this meeting is on Mondays, and Welly testers meet on Saturdays, I propose Thursday 11:59pm GMT as the image-to-test generation $datetime.
15:41 sdziallas alright. mchua, should we +1 the ideas and move on or take action items here?
15:41 mchua: you type too fast!
15:41 satellit__ use [soas-testing] on header?
15:42 sdziallas thinks that makes sense!
15:42 mchua Oh, I could just take the action item of setting up the whole thing. :)
15:42 pbrobinson satellit__: we're talking SoaS not upstream sugar so live image is a given
15:42 sdziallas ...and votes +1!
15:42 satellit__ +1
15:42 mchua mostly wanted to run this by folks to see if it was sane.
15:42 sdziallas mchua: it really is, I think.
15:42 pbrobinson: can haz +1?
15:42 mchua satellit__: I wanted to ask if you'd be game for working on this - because I can help set up the infrastructure, but I don't have the time to run the tests or keep a QA team going.
15:43 satellit__: so I think you and tabs are going to be key in getting this to work - you folks are the ones doing the actual QA
15:43 satellit__ I will do all I can to help
15:43 pbrobinson +1
15:43 sdziallas satellit__: *thank you*
15:43 :)
15:43 pbrobinson agreed satellit__ thanks!
15:44 mchua #action mchua set up this dev/test/release cycle for next meeting with satellit's help
15:44 I'm going to get it set up, and Tom's going to keep it going. ;)
15:44 JT4sugar +1
15:44 satellit__ what about application testing? wiki spreadsheet?
15:44 mchua satellit__: Test case management system, which is what we'll be setting up this week. ;)
15:45 satellit__ great
15:45 sdziallas moving on?
15:45 mchua Onwards!
15:45 pbrobinson and upwards?
15:46 mchua #topic Patches and scripts for the soas spin .iso
15:46 "someone should just ask sdziallas and pbrobinson nicely if they'd mind terribly if someone suggested some patches / post-processing scripts for the soas spin .iso and promised to help maintain those patches / scripts for at least a few releases," says mtd.
15:46 I am not... entirely sure what this means, but if mtd is here perhaps he can clarify what patches/scripts are meant?
15:46 sdziallas mtd: hullo?
15:46 pbrobinson has no problems with these in pricipal but needs to know more about what mtd proposes
15:46 sdziallas yup, same here
15:47 mchua likewise - although if the proposed ideas are good, the "someone else will maintain it" addition is an immediate +1 from me, most likely.
15:47 pbrobinson I'm happy to take this action item and discuss further with mtd and flesh it out
15:47 sdziallas (I think what's important is that they are maintained. If so, I'm pretty happy to look at everything that comes across my way.)
15:47 pbrobinson: awesome!
15:47 #action pbrobinson to discuss patches / scripts further with mtd
15:47 pbrobinson +1 on the proposal
15:47 mchua next?
15:47 sdziallas (+1 from me too)
15:47 yup!
15:47 #topic #  what people plan to work on for the v4 cycle
15:47 #undo
15:48 #topic what people plan to work on for the v4 cycle
15:48 satellit__ * I wonder if mtd was thinking of non-compressed soas iso
15:48 mchua #info Mel requests that people continue to talk and think about what they want to do with their SoaS time between now and our v4 release date in October on the soas list - and Planet Sugar Labs.
15:48 ...that's about it, really.
15:49 bernie sdziallas: are these commands I see you and mchua use, such as #undo, stuff in a newer version of meetbot?
15:49 pbrobinson satellit__: I'll find out. That is already a feature in planning
15:49 mchua bernie: zodbot commands.
15:49 bernie: ...so yes, in a way - it's like meetbot++.
15:49 sdziallas mchua: +1!
15:49 bernie: this... doesn't work here?
15:49 pbrobinson mchua +1
15:49 sdziallas #info Sebastian requests a meetbot update!
15:49 #agreed Mel's request is herewith approved
15:49 bernie sdziallas: nope, we have fewer commands
15:49 pbrobinson needs to finish the setup of his blog
15:49 mchua would like to hear about what people are thinking beyond the week-to-week, and promises to bring her own reflection in next week as an example (well, the first draft).
15:50 bernie mchua: if it's useful, I could look into upgrading our instance.
15:50 mchua #action mchua to bring in her reflection draft for the v4 cycle to the next meeting as an example.
15:50 bernie: that'd be excellent. I'll send you a link in #sugar.
15:50 sdziallas alright, moving on?
15:50 mchua Onwards!
15:50 sdziallas (we've ten minutes left, that's pretty good)
15:50 pbrobinson the features on my list at the moment include Sugar 0.90, improving the build ks, improving upstream issues so we don't get another Read style issue
15:50 sdziallas #topic communication to activity developers about feature process
15:51 mchua JT4sugar: *now* we can talk about it :)
15:51 what did you want to say?
15:51 sdziallas pbrobinson: I agree with that! :)
15:52 JT4sugar mchua, With Feature Freeze July 27th and release in October. A testing strategy and what the SoaS Team would like to see from community over that period would be quite helpful
15:52 mtd sdziallas: hi
15:52 sdziallas mtd: hi! :)
15:52 mtd sdziallas: just reading scrollback...sorry for jumping in...ignore me...
15:52 sdziallas mtd: we action'ed pbrobinson an item to talk to you about scripts & patches. if there's time left, we could do that here, or... okay.
15:52 pbrobinson mtd: basically you have to talk to me about your proposed scripts
15:53 mchua JT4sugar: We just nailed down the outline for a testing plan that will be implemented over the next 7 days, and called for people to write reflections on what they want to work on for SoaS over the next release cycle (v4), if you read backlog. :)
15:53 JT4sugar: The difference is that we're asking people to talk about the work *they* want to - and plan on - doing for the v4 cycle
15:53 JT4sugar: because it's really easy to propose work for other folks to do, but what matters is the stuff people will actually do themselves. :)
15:54 pbrobinson I'm also going to work on the EU language requirements once SeanDaly writes the feature request
15:54 :-D
15:55 mchua JT4sugar: You mentioned that the communication had been successful - I'm curious what you mean by that, I'd love to see examples of that communication (links to mailing list archives) so we can hold them up as examples of good communication for next round, and do it again, if it works well.
15:55 pbrobinson: blog it all ;)
15:55 pbrobinson mchua: I need to finish the setup of that and then get it added to the planet :-D
15:56 JT4sugar mchua, I understand that. i was asking for what the SoaS team thinks they may need from July 27th to October release. Allows us to try to ramp up to future resource needs
15:56 mchua nods - Peter joins the SL blogosphere, hurrah!
15:56 sdziallas yaaay! :)
15:56 pbrobinson LOL!
15:56 mchua JT4sugar: Yep, that's exactly what the reflections are supposed to help with. "I'm working on X (and therefore will need help with Y)."
15:57 pbrobinson wonders if there's any more items left?
15:57 JT4sugar mchua, I wasn't saying it was successful I was saying if a good outward reaching communication strategy was deployed it would help for a better release
15:57 sdziallas pbrobinson: (If this one is set, we're done.)
15:58 JT4sugar I'm good just wanted to add those thoughts
15:58 mchua JT4sugar: Help with that communication would be welcomed, if you're asking for what help we need. ;)
15:58 pbrobinson sdziallas: I missed the last point, sorry was one behind
15:58 sdziallas JT4sugar: thank you -- also for joining us for the meetings, it's really appreciated!
15:58 mchua sdziallas, pbrobinson: I'm ready to move on
15:58 satellit__ I will be testing builds on sticks, testing applications for compatability, etc plus modified init.html as discussed today and DVD that will be accepted by all
15:58 sdziallas mchua: nothing to move on to, afaict.
15:59 anybody objecting to closing the meeting? :)
15:59 mchua satellit__: you should blog those plans of yours as well. ;)
15:59 No objections to closing the meeting!
15:59 I figure mtd and pbrobinson can pow-wow here after if they want.
15:59 satellit__ something else to learn...: )
15:59 mchua Always stuff to learn, satellit__. That's the awesome thing about life.
15:59 sdziallas Thank you everybody!
15:59 #endmeeting

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