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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2010-05-31 11:45:00

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Time Nick Message
11:46 lucian #topic is an abstraction/wrapper desirable?
11:46 mchua lucian: oh wait... I thought we were talking about the meeting time in 3.25 hours
11:46 walterbender lucian: I cannot image it not being desirable...
11:46 mchua (that's when the soas meeting is)
11:46 (not now)
11:47 lucian mchua: oh. then never mind, i'm just bad with international times :)
11:47 walterbender: several people have expressed concerns
11:47 maintainability was the most often quoted one
11:47 i've heard concerns about performance, but i'll just dismiss those
11:47 mchua lucian: oh, okay :) no conflict then. I have to go, but I'll read backscroll when I return.
11:47 (thanks for running this, it's a long overdue discussion!)
11:47 lucian mchua: ok, bye
11:49 walterbender: i don't have any experience making such wrappers reall
11:49 walterbender lucian: there are downsides, but the current situation is also unmaintainable and has us in a corner...
11:49 lucian walterbender: do you think it's feasible to maintain a wrapper?
11:50 walterbender maybe in the long term is it just a means of transitioning to a different base, e.g., webkit...
11:50 lucian if one of the backends were to be dropped entirely, would the extra work still be worthed?
11:50 walterbender but the current situation is unsustainable/maintainable
11:52 lucian: I haven't looked at the code, but it seems that if anything needs to be rewritten, then a rewrite on an abstraction layer is not adding a lot of additional work/overhead
11:52 lucian Surf already exists, but lacks many features
11:52 walterbender the only reason not to do it is if we make a definitive decision to stick with xul and don't anticipate that changing any time soon.
11:53 then application of minimal patches to the current code base would perhaps be best...
11:53 but either way, it seems we have a very fragile system that needs to be shored up.
11:53 lucian so in the short term, switching to webkit is "finishing Surf" vs "porting Browse"
11:54 walterbender where porting Browse would involve building an abstraction layer
11:54 (presumably)
11:54 lucian walterbender: yes, that seems the best choice
11:54 browse has many more features than surf, so it could be ported to webkit directly
11:54 but the extra work for an abstraction makes sense to me when it comes to browse
11:55 walterbender lucian: in theory, it should make the code cleaner and easier to maintain
11:56 lucian walterbender: assuming i get the abstraction layer right
11:56 tomeu webkitgtk+ devs have shown interest in helping out, btw
11:57 lucian tomeu: helping out in general? are they interested in a wrapper?
12:00 tomeu lucian: helping out in the way upstreams use to help: answering (good) questions, fixing bugs you find, reviewing any patches you come up with, etc
12:00 lucian tomeu: ah, ok. valuable help anyway
12:01 walterbender needs to disappear for a few minutes...
12:05 lucian tomeu: do you think this abstraction layer is a good idea?
12:06 tomeu lucian: it's a hard decision, that's why I asked about mozilla, if xulrunner is going to stop being available to us in distros, we have it out of the question
12:07 lucian tomeu: i'm trying the mozilla mailing list for more answers about that
12:08 tomeu lucian: awesome, you can try asking blizzard in gimpnet or irc.mozilla.org, he worked on sugar and is now in mozilla.org
12:08 lucian tomeu: ah, good
12:11 tomeu: so i see 3 choices
12:11 1) go ahead with the abstraction layer
12:11 2) port everything to webkit
12:12 3) stick with mozilla, get everything fixed and maintain it if needed
12:12 3 doesn't seem like an option anymore from what i've read
12:13 tomeu lucian: yes, but would be good to have some first hand information
12:13 sdziallas lucian: I'm by no means qualified to make any comment on this, but I'll try anyway. ;) I suppose it's a matter of figuring out whether (1) is just delaying the inevitably for a little bit and estimating the workload (1) would bring compared to (2).
12:13 tomeu I have only read rumours
12:14 lucian tomeu: yes, we need more info from mozilla folk
12:15 tomeu: also about webkit, it seems webkit devs are less hostile to gobject bindings, with lkcl calming down a bit
12:15 tomeu: i'll need to talk to pywebkitgtk folk some more, though
12:15 tomeu lucian: yeah, a colleague at collabora has been working on the dom bindings
12:15 lucian: may be better to go with pygi instead
12:16 lucian tomeu: that's not ready
12:16 tomeu lucian: and pywebkitgtk is not maintained ;)
12:16 lucian tomeu: true, i guess
12:16 tomeu we need to make some effort anyway
12:16 so we need to choose where is better to spend it
12:16 lucian i guess we're the only ones that need to embed web engines in python apps
12:17 tomeu lucian: for webkit's api, it may be there already
12:17 lucian tomeu: callbacks are the only big issue afaict
12:17 tomeu lucian: not really, what happens is that the move to g-i hasn't been sold properly to the python community
12:17 lucian tomeu: js uses a lot of events and they need to fire fast
12:17 tomeu lucian: but the python side will be catching so many events?
12:18 lucian tomeu: perhaps not quite so many, indeed
12:19 tomeu: there will be mostly setting up and getting results from the dom every now and then
12:19 tomeu lucian: so the earlier we test it, the earlier we'll be able to make an informed decision
12:20 I'm tryint o get distros to package pygi, in the meantime I would checkout the required modules into sugar's jhbuild
12:20 lucian tomeu: right. my last exam is on wednesday, the rest of this week i'll try and find out what would actually work
12:20 from the p.o.v. of upstreams
12:21 tomeu nice, we still need to get soem info before we can make the best decisions
12:23 lucian tomeu: fwiw, the pywebkitgtk activity log could look worse http://code.google.com/p/pywebkitgtk/updates/list
12:23 but it is a fragile situation nontheles
12:23 right, i'll guess that wraps it up
12:23 thanks walterbender tomeu sdziallas for your input
12:23 tomeu yeah, I was only talking about what I have heard, we should check that out as well
12:24 lucian #endmeeting

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