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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2010-03-19 18:39:00

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Time Nick Message
18:39 mchua #chair sdziallas
18:39 I'm not sure the #chair command works here, but okay.
18:39 sdziallas: Let's finish the picking of Activities so we can build the iso and explain to folks what's going on.
18:40 sdziallas mchua: OH NOES I CAN HAZ NO CHAIR ;)
18:40 mchua: yeah, right.
18:41 alright, so. we've browse on our list and were discussing which other activities we wanted to add.
18:42 mchua kicks gobby to connect
18:42 Aha, there we go.
18:42 sdziallas: Yep. What's next after Browse?
18:43 sdziallas mchua: well... we were Physics / TurtleArt / Record / Write, last time.
18:44 (the latter ones are half-ish broken, though Record... *could* work)
18:45 #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Sugar_Activities
18:45 (for reference)
18:45 mchua looking at the list
18:47 TurtleArt is exceptionall well-maintained.
18:47 er, exceptoinally.
18:47 AGH
18:47 sdziallas nods.
18:47 mchua very.
18:47 sdziallas LOL!
18:47 :)
18:47 yeah, so let's add that one.
18:47 mchua Physics also seems pretty on top of things.
18:48 I wonder if it's worth asking Activity maintainers to submit their things for consideration for SoaS, so we know they actually want to be on there?
18:48 sdziallas well, it bundles a good chunk of stuff, but since it's already packaged and certainly popular, we should go for it.
18:48 mchua (Maybe after this initial pick, though.)
18:48 nods.
18:48 sdziallas I suppose we won't hear from many folks then.
18:48 nods.
18:48 mchua So TurtleArt is in, Physics is in?
18:48 sdziallas yes.
18:49 mchua Okay. Now, Record... I'm a bit torn. It's a great Activity, but we can't... expect it'll work well on a lot of computers with its current state.
18:49 satellit__ chat?
18:49 mchua Plus a lot of computers don't even have webcams.
18:49 sdziallas yes, but...
18:49 mchua: so it works here for me with my webcam and I know that Fedora has continuously these "better webcam support" features.
18:49 mchua: but there *are* things that may randomly break Record.
18:50 (and it's not really maintained, either)
18:50 mchua How actively is it being maintained?
18:50 Ah.
18:50 sdziallas So alsroot has been fixing stuff.
18:50 mchua pulls up gitorious in the background, as well as aslo.
18:50 sdziallas But he says that the codebase is so complicated that a rewrite would make more sense.
18:51 mchua The last patch was in June 2009.
18:51 sdziallas Heh.
18:51 mchua Before then, it was April 2009.
18:51 sdziallas That's comparatively young... :p
18:51 semi-joking.
18:51 mchua It's... yeah, I can believe alsroot's statements.
18:52 So here's my question for both Record and Write, and for other things that may be borderline like this:
18:52 do we lose anything by adding these to the "you can install from ASLO!" encouragement list?
18:52 alsroot is hacking Record right now, to fix http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1847 and http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1848
18:53 mchua alsroot, what do you think? You've got a better handle on the state of Record code than we do.
18:53 I think that putting it as a "get from ASLO" does a few things.
18:53 (1) it removes the "ZOMG PACKAGE" extra step, allowing us to have less work and to be more agile about updating the code (maybe) because it only has to get updated in one place.
18:54 (2) it sets a different level of expectation than something that "ships by default" - try this thing out, it may or may not work with your webcam.
18:54 if it does, that's extra bonus cool. If it doesn't, you didn't necessarily expect it to, you were just trying that out.
18:55 sdziallas (side-noting that most of the activities on these lists are packaged, some aren't, but there are more we haven't even looked at. anyhow, generally +1.)
18:55 alsroot is wondering when soas switched from getting-from-aslo-as-is to repackage-all-activities
18:55 mchua: the thing is, we need ASLO in anycase
18:56 sdziallas alsroot: right now. but it's "package-a-small-number-of-activities" - or at least we're turning it that way :)
18:57 mchua alsroot: Well, it went from "let's stick .xo files in" for the first 2 versions to "we're a Fedora Spin for build infrastructure maintenance sanity" for this upcoming release.
18:58 alsroot: with the Fedora Spin stuff comes the "everything must be packaged" criteria - which is a little extra work, but has the benefit of making sure licenses, etc. are cleaned up, libraries split out, and such.
18:59 alsroot: But the number of Activities we shipped by default are way too many to turn into good packages, and a good portion of those Activities don't work anyway (lack of maintenance, etc) so we're paring down to a small number that *do* work, that will be packaged (or are already packaged) and maintained, and tested and (informally) supported
18:59 alsroot: and making really, really good "hey, there's this thing called ASLO... why not try it out?" resources for a bunch more.
18:59 I think if part of the out-of-the-box experience /is/ exploring ASLO, that's not a bad thing at all.
18:59 sdziallas: Feel free to jump in and correct me. ;)
19:00 sdziallas mchua: I'm totally +1 to that.
19:00 (works very well with our "explore" principle, too :)
19:01 mchua yup.
19:01 alsroot mchua: well, I guess answer is pretty common, just post activity bugs to bugs.sl.o, can't see better way
19:01 mchua alsroot: Yeah, but if there's no active maintainer (Browse is an example of this) the bugs don't get fixed. It's... a problem we need to fix.
19:02 alsroot: Basically, as the de facto maintainer of Record, what would you think about Record not shipping by default in SoaS, but instead being one of the "here's ASLO, try downloading this to see if it works" Activities?
19:03 or to rephrase - "any objections?" ;)
19:04 alsroot mchua: for me, ASLO is the main deployment scheme, I'm tracking what is current verison on ASLO etc. -- at the end I don't see (for me as current Record maintainer) any differences if Record will be shiped w/ soas or not
19:04 mchua alsroot: Ok, then I think that makes the decision easy. :)
19:05 sdziallas: I propose Record and Write be on our "install from ASLO!" list.
19:05 sdziallas mchua: granted, approved, noted! could you #action this?
19:05 mchua sdziallas: In fact, I propose that we just take a look at the remainder of the package list and simply list the ones that are up-to-date in well-maintained fedora packages and pick the shortlist from there.
19:05 #action Record and Write are on the "install from ASLO" documentation-ninjahood list.
19:05 sdziallas (for now, heh.)
19:05 alsroot anyway, due to nature of ASLO, public ASLO activities should work on all declared SPs
19:06 sdziallas (leaving out write is pretty hefty, but since it's not really working... heh:)
19:06 mchua sdziallas: Write is *so* broken right now.
19:06 sdziallas: I might be able to pump QA resources into checking it out and trying to push for dev resources to fix it up in time for GA, but... that's a slim shot.
19:06 sdziallas mchua: right. I found Mel's bugs and... it's so sad, yeah.
19:06 mchua: one step... ;)
19:07 mchua sdziallas: $5
19:07 alsroot: *nod*
19:07 sdziallas mchua: thx! :)
19:07 mchua sdziallas: okay, so on the remaining list on https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Sugar_Activities are there any more Activities we know are well-maintained both codewise and as Sugar packages?
19:07 er, RPMs?
19:08 er, packages in Fedora?
19:08 sometimes does not actually speak English.
19:08 sdziallas: I'll note that we can also do a quick first pass here, and then explain stuff to the various lists with criteria for inclusion and how the few Activities that made it on there fit those, and then let people remind us of other well-maintained ones over the weekend.
19:08 Tuesday is Beta freeze, which is soon, but still a few days out.
19:09 So there is a little time for a few people to respond.
19:09 sdziallas possibly etoys? (pippy & read are broken, too) terminal? visualmatch?
19:09 mchua And I'd like a working minimal .ks asap.
19:09 sdziallas grins sadly.
19:09 mchua sdziallas: Do you know they work well and are maintained well, or are these things we should check into?
19:09 sdziallas looking at this list under that assumption shows just more drastically how broken all this is.
19:09 mchua sdziallas: Well, knowing the bugs is the first step to fixing 'em.
19:10 sdziallas mchua: etoys is taken care of by some RH guy + OLPC folks, so that should be alright.
19:10 mchua: no, I mean "being actively maintained"
19:10 mchua: I wouldn't classify many activities as that.
19:10 mchua: terminal is just... terminal.
19:10 mchua so there's "the code is actively being developed by an upstream with a responsive maintainer"
19:10 sdziallas mchua: and visualmatch is maintained by walter, saying all ;)
19:10 mchua and "the software is packaged in Fedora by a responsive maintainer"
19:11 sdziallas mchua: heh.
19:11 mchua sdziallas: you can do the Fedora package maintenance for a few, but not too many.
19:11 sdziallas: or... well, maybe you can, but you shouldn't.
19:11 sdziallas mchua: well, we need activities to be packaged in a day or two.
19:11 mchua sdziallas: so we can take a *few* Activities with really good upstreams that don't package, and etoys seems like a logical fit for that.
19:11 sdziallas: if you don't mind the packaging workload, I mean.
19:12 sdziallas mchua: I don't see many maintainers doing that responsively.
19:12 mchua Just like I can tackle Browse's general brokenness with a higher QA/support workload on my part in order to allow us to include it - but I can't do that for more than, perhaps, one other Activity. So the rest of the Activities need to have working code, for me.
19:12 sdziallas mchua: I think we can just jump on the etoys train, that should work (i.e. not much work for me, actually, since people package that alrady)
19:12 nods.
19:12 ...and goes adding etoys.
19:12 mchua sdziallas: Oh, okay. so Etoys definitely has an active dev/user community, the code's up to date, it's easy to reach them... and Someone Else is packaging it responsibly.
19:12 Ideal case situation.
19:12 Yay!
19:13 Pippy and Read are out, if they're broken.
19:13 VisualMatch...
19:13 looks at git
19:14 I know the CFS deployment has had successful test runs with it - Lynne May has played with it a lot and hasn't been able to break it yet.
19:14 Last updated 2/23, so fairly recent.
19:15 sdziallas Heh, cool. so it's in :)
19:15 mchua adds one more check - git, aslo, and trac
19:15 looks at bugs for visualmatch
19:16 huh, we're developing a way for quickly assessing activity health.
19:16 sdziallas nods. SOP time, heh? :p
19:16 mchua Yeah, eventually. :)
19:16 I'm going to be lazy and just leave the logs up and the next time this has to be done will probably write a SOP and get someone else to do it.
19:16 I think.
19:17 So, visualmatch not doing so well on the trac front - only one bug ever reported (by you, actually) and never closed, 3 months ago.
19:17 http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1637
19:17 That having been said, it's not a bad bug.
19:17 And I think that's about on par for bug reporting for Activities, sadly.
19:17 Most of them don't have an active Trac workflow, is the impression that I get.
19:18 I'm happy with visualmatch being in.
19:18 sdziallas oups, I should have taken care of this. (though not many folks will use that way I describe there anyway.)
19:18 okay.
19:18 mchua sdziallas: let's talk about terminal, and then I want to look at our list of 5 (or 6) and do a quick sanity check.
19:19 sdziallas mchua: I'd like to run quickly through the list of non-included activities then to make sure we don't miss anything, yeah.
19:19 but terminal first.
19:19 mchua Ok - pulling up aslo, gitorious, trac...
19:20 http://activities.sugarlabs.or[…]/sugar/addon/4043
19:20 last update 1/16
19:20 http://git.sugarlabs.org/projects/terminal
19:20 sdziallas ah, cool.
19:20 mchua wade and sayamindu - sparse fixes, but looks like good ones.
19:21 http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/quer[…]ity&col=milestone
19:21 sdziallas oups!
19:22 mchua Not bad, actually!
19:22 I'd want to give it a quick smoke test run to make sure it's ok and that we can't casually break it.
19:22 sdziallas: unless you've used it recently and feel good about it.
19:22 sdziallas mchua: I haven't had issues lately.
19:23 (but didn't look too deeply)
19:23 mchua sdziallas: Would you feel comfortable about it? or do you want me to take a hammer to it this weekend and we can make the final call tomorrow or sunday after that?
19:24 sdziallas mchua: I'd be alright with adding it... temporarily.
19:24 mchua: so if it fails, we'll take it out. but for now, it could be good.
19:25 mchua Okay, i'll put it on my todo list to hit that hard this weekend.
19:25 #action mchua test the living daylights out of Terminal
19:25 and we'll see how it works.
19:25 sdziallas grins.
19:25 mchua sdziallas: Ok, so stepping back from the 6 activities we have so far... how many of those are going to be a nontrivial packaging workload on you? (i.e. how many are you going to have to maintain, and of those, are there any that are nontrivial?)
19:26 From my side, Browse may be a potential resource suck in terms of QA and support.
19:26 Terminal is an unknown quantity, I'm prepared for that to be my second (and last) QA/support heavy Activity, but don't expect it to be.
19:26 sdziallas mchua: etoys is a nobrainer, I don't need to do anything for that.
19:27 mchua The rest of the things - etoys, turtleart, visualmatch, physics - have other people taking very good care of them, and I can point folks in their direction, so I'm good there.
19:27 sdziallas browse can become pretty hefty if xulrunner breaks, otherwise it should be good.
19:27 mchua: ah, that's cool :)
19:28 mchua: the other five activities... can be kept up2date with a reasonable amount of work, I guess.
19:29 mchua So wait, you're packaging all of them?
19:29 sdziallas: (one sec, let me shovel a piece of pizza into my mouth)
19:30 sdziallas mchua: they are packaged, so I just need to keep them up2date.
19:30 :)
19:37 mchua back,  nmo
19:37 er, nom
19:37 sdziallas: Okay, so you've pretty much just got browse too.
19:38 sdziallas mchua: heh, yeah, browse is okay.
19:38 mchua sdziallas: So you feel like you have bandwidth to maintain a little more if needed?
19:38 sdziallas mchua: yes.
19:38 mchua doesn't want to push this too far - we should feel like we're shipping with far too *little* for us to do
19:38 okay.
19:38 sdziallas: you drive - we'll go through the rest of the list now.
19:38 sdziallas mchua: so I could still take another few activities.
19:38 mchua: since this is - compared to before - much better.
19:39 the James Simmons' ebook activities might make sense. Or Speak. Or...?
19:39 mchua Okay. Remember some of that bandwidth we need to use for things like "nagging inactive maintainers" and "finding contributors to help" and "documenting lots" and all.
19:39 sdziallas IRC, heh? let me look at our list again.
19:40 mchua sdziallas: Basically, what are the activities that it would pretty much break your heart not to include? Then we can pass those through a "does it work?" basic sanity check, and then look at the maintenance and packing state.
19:40 er, packaging.
19:40 sdziallas mchua: uh, before I forget, we should probably add another package (csound... and stuff, since otherwise people will complain when they use activities from a.sl.o and sound doesn't work)
19:40 mchua: infoslicer?
19:41 log?
19:41 dunno how popular chat is.
19:41 maze? *grin*
19:42 mchua Ohhhh, Maze.
19:42 sdziallas (playgo, but that's a personal one, so I'll grab that myself form a.sl.o)
19:42 mchua laughs
19:42 sdziallas (tamtam, because I wasted hours on packaging that sucker)
19:42 so the ebook stuff might... not make sense anyway, since I don't know how much read works.
19:43 mchua I've been meaning to get my friend Mark to teach me to play more Go.
19:43 sdziallas I've had issues with it when I tried, but I'm not sure whether it's entirely broken.
19:43 mchua But yeah, ASLO.
19:43 sdziallas We could use the PlayGo activity at some point... :)
19:43 mchua has never really gotten into using Read, so is probably biased here.
19:43 sdziallas heh. nope, it's alright.
19:43 (just sayin' that we don't need to whine about an ebook activity if we can't read them out of the box)
19:43 mchua nods.
19:44 That would also mean a lack of "ZOMG PANIC MUST FIND EBOOKS" rushing for this release.
19:44 Which would be lovely to avoid.
19:44 sdziallas LOL, yeah ;)
19:44 looks at list again.
19:44 tries to put them all in one line
19:44 satellit_ presence service?
19:45 sdziallas mchua: speak. IRC. infoslicer. log. chat (?). maze. tamtam.
19:45 mchua: for example log might make sense, since otherwise it'd be just hard to grab the logs.
19:46 mchua sdziallas: I like tamtam - though I'm not sure how active the upstream is. I like Maze - I'd like to do a quick sanity check on upstream health, but it seemed solid when I tried it (informally). Same with Speak, perhaps with a bit more testing. And the Help activity may be worth doing some legwork to update and get in there. Log is also a good one to have around.
19:46 will be shorter
19:46 sdziallas mchua: help is broken.
19:46 mchua sdziallas: speak, log, tamtam, maze, maybe-help-if-it-can-be-hamme​red-into-working-but-not-now.
19:46 sdziallas mchua: because it only works with 0.84, heh. :/
19:47 mchua: okay. no chance for infoslicer and irc? the latter upstream is... nice, I hear ;)
19:47 mchua Hm. it's an Activity worth maintaining, though, and one of the first I'd probably want to call for help with.
19:47 But that's later.
19:47 sdziallas yeah... $5 and stuff.
19:47 mchua sdziallas: Oh, IRC is poorly maintained by a total slacker who won't be updating it for this release due to lack of time.
19:47 sdziallas mchua: but I hear it works, no? ;)
19:47 mchua So if you really want to package it and ship it, all right, but don't expect a lot of dev help available from her. :)
19:48 sdziallas: It does, on a basic level. I'd want to add that to my smoke test list for the weekend, actually.
19:48 sdziallas (it's already packaged)
19:48 okay, so I'll just add that. if you smoke test stuff, that's... good :)
19:48 walterbender sdziallas: infoslicer? I had not seen a ticket for that one...
19:48 mchua sdziallas: Well, also - I'm getting a bit nervous about the size of this list.
19:48 sdziallas: some of these can be "please install via ASLO" things as well.
19:48 sdziallas walterbender: no no, no tickets... just whether we want to include it ;)
19:49 mchua I'd argue that if anyting goes in, it should be (1) maze, for quick demo happiness, (2) log, for debugging, and (3) IRC, for quickly getting help online.
19:49 Maybe TamTam as a 4th.
19:49 Because it demos very, very well.
19:49 walterbender sdziallas: I need to look at the backlog :)
19:49 mchua If we can smoketest and verify these all seem sane.
19:49 sdziallas: That brings us up to 10, and I would cap there, and put the rest as "hey ASLO is awesome."
19:49 sdziallas mchua: I like infoslicer, too, but... let me see.
19:50 mchua too, but... ASLO.
19:50 sdziallas mchua: 11, even.
19:50 mchua sdziallas: Everything we add brings more maintenance load.
19:50 11?
19:50 sdziallas walterbender: we could brief you ;)
19:50 mchua counts
19:50 sdziallas mchua: (gobby)
19:50 mchua: oh, no speak? yeah, we could kick that.
19:50 walterbender sdziallas: if you need some more "maintained" activities, there is alway: TurtleArt, VisualMatch, CardSort, Ruler, Sliderule...
19:51 sdziallas mchua: tamtam also gives you four activities in one (which I need to fix first)
19:51 mchua sdziallas: oh yeah. 11. I can count.
19:51 walterbender mchua: that is already 25% of the way to 20 activities :)
19:51 sdziallas walterbender: the first two of them are packaged, the other one are... waiting for me :)
19:51 mchua sdziallas: I'm nervous about this list, it's getting big
19:51 walterbender sdziallas: and anything Gray Martin in involved in is well maintained...
19:52 sdziallas: and unamindu and jim simmons are pretty diligent with theirs too
19:52 mchua sdziallas: I know the stuff in here is good, but for most of them I'm not *quite* sure, just 90% confident.
19:52 walterbender sdziallas: and alsroot is a machine :)
19:52 sdziallas mchua: mhm ;)
19:52 mchua And we can have strong pushes towards ASLO.
19:52 Actually, we should have a strong list of recommended ASLO programs
19:52 sdziallas walterbender: hehe, yeah - thanks for the help!
19:52 mchua: yes! you're right.
19:52 mchua that we know with good confidence are kickass and will work
19:52 to give people the "oh wait ASLO has good stuff, there is more quality to discover!" feeling.
19:53 sdziallas mchua: so, from the gobby list, do you want to kick more?
19:53 walterbender mchua: if you know with confidence that they are kick ass and will work, why not include them in the first place?
19:53 mchua walterbender: Because it's not confidence, it's "reasonably high certainty but I'm not entirely sure because we haven't thoroughly tested them."
19:53 And I can handle that for 2 or 3 Activities that ship.
19:53 I can't do it for 12.
19:54 walterbender mchua: you need to share the load...
19:54 mchua: of course you cannot do it yourself!!!
19:54 sdziallas walterbender: well, the same goes for packaging... and I haven't been able to share that load, yet.
19:55 walterbender: (meaning that I find myself doing a lot - probably too much - of everything right now)
19:55 walterbender sdziallas: that is a horse of a different color
19:56 sdziallas walterbender: the relationship lies close there, because if an activity is dead upstream, I can't do much as a packager.
19:56 walterbender sdziallas: I bet there are some of Jeff Elkner's students who could help you... we just need to ask them...
19:56 mchua walterbender: when have you known me to try to do something by myself? ;)
19:57 walterbender sdziallas: when you need a stick, just ask me :)
19:57 mchua I'm a lazy bum. :) I also try to underpromise and overdeliver.
19:57 sdziallas walterbender: hehe :p well, the issue with activity packaging is that it needs to be done *immediately* - like a day or two after another release is out.
19:57 mchua: gah. I heard that today already once :)
19:58 mchua sdziallas: So, gobby has my list of 6.
19:58 sdziallas: I think EToys is a *great* place for us to give a strong, strong call-to-action to not just ASLO, but to the upstream EToys community.
19:58 walterbender sdziallas: so give me a list of the activities that are causing you packaging issues and I will use my stick...
19:58 sdziallas mchua: so you mean we should have people pull it form ASLO?
19:58 walterbender: LOL!
19:58 mchua Which we can do more effectively in a "you - go get this awesome thing, and while you're at it check out these places with more resources!"
19:59 sdziallas: Yeah, I would propose that, *because*...
19:59 Etoys is complex and sophisticated enough that including it without instructions can confuse folks.
19:59 sdziallas walterbender: pick randomly one from here: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Sugar_Activities (I'm semi-joking)
19:59 mchua But if we set up a strong driving force to the EToys upstream, they get more participants - not just users - and are able to help give the people who take that extra step have a *really* good first etoys experience.
19:59 walterbender mchua: is Etoys not packaged because of questions about the license? It would be a shame not to include it preloaded...
20:00 mchua I want to make the list so slim that it's obvious that *not* being included on the SoaS image isn't a slight.
20:00 And that people *should* get more stuff from ASLO. It should be impossible to actually teach a class with the stuff preloaded on this stick.
20:00 walterbender mchua: I think you need to consider the user experience, not just slighting the developers
20:00 sdziallas mchua: LOL! (better not let anybody quote you to Sean on that)
20:00 mchua The point is that you need to poke around and customize, explore - because we are *not* in a position where we can deliver and support a preloaded experience.
20:01 walterbender mchua: I don't understand your logic
20:01 mchua: hopefully the stick will reach people with no internet access...
20:01 mchua walterbender: Hopefully, yes. Not for this release, though.
20:01 walterbender mchua: it is not production yet, but you are raising the user experience bar...
20:01 mchua walterbender: Um... I should probably back up. How much context do you have for what we're trying to do right now?
20:02 walterbender mchua: I read the meeting notes from this morning...
20:02 sdziallas walterbender: did you fell off your couch? :)
20:02 walterbender I didn't fall off my couch, but I have to say, I am in Sean's camp
20:02 sdziallas (fall, even. apparently I can't speak English tonight, either)
20:03 walterbender I guess I am not tuned in sufficiently to the time tables...
20:03 sdziallas: you are feeling F13 deadline pressures?
20:04 sdziallas walterbender: well, it's not simply the F13 deadline.
20:04 walterbender sdziallas: what else impacts your ability to set your own schedule?
20:05 sdziallas walterbender: I'm afraid that a lot of our core modules are broken and that I'll end up having to maintain 30 activity packages, to release-engineer the kickstart file and to do bug hunting and documentation work.
20:05 walterbender: so I'm alright with the deadlines. because even if we had unlimited time frames, this stuff simply wouldn't get fixed all of a sudden.
20:06 walterbender: I'll get you a bug with a scary example.
20:06 walterbender sdziallas: I guess I am confused... a chicken and egg problem? F13 and Sucrose 0.88 need to settle BEFORE you can make the next SoaS release.
20:06 and there may be packages in F13 that are not sympathetic to some Activities
20:07 sdziallas walterbender: http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1767
20:07 walterbender: write is currently broken. and nobody would have noticed, because write has no owner in trac.
20:07 walterbender: (the next SoaS release will happen together with F13)
20:08 walterbender: but I'm happy to step back for a minute and listen :) - might make sense to hear what drives you to the other side's camp and how you see this. :)
20:09 mchua walterbender: yeah, I'm also curious how you see the situation, because we apparently have a different viewpoint here, and maybe there is stuff I'm missing.
20:11 walterbender sdziallas, mchua: I think that we have a bit of a panic behavior going on right now and that we need to slow down and communicate the situation with the community in order to find the help you need.
20:12 sdziallas: Write is broken on the current SoaS builds? But not in general... because I use it all the time with the latest Sugar...
20:12 so it is probably just a matter of getting the correct pieces into place.
20:12 sdziallas walterbender: broken, as in: "the screen is obfuscated, you can't really see what you type"
20:12 (the latest snapshots, yup)
20:12 mhm.
20:13 mchua walterbender: We were actually trying to get a quick draft of the kickstart and the resulting iso out this (EST) morning so we could run it by the various lists and the rest of the community as the start of a conversation.
20:13 walterbender sdziallas: I'll grab a snapshot and take a look...
20:13 mchua walterbender: Initially, I was thinking that the whole "revise .ks, make .iso, email the lists and say "hey, what do you think?" would take... maybe 2 hours, 3 at most."
20:13 walterbender it could be a mismatch with either abiword or metacity...
20:13 but I doubt it is a problem in Sugar itself.
20:13 mchua walterbender: and we were having that convo (logged) in public channels so that folks could see what we were doing.
20:13 walterbender Gary is the maintainer of the Sugar side of the problem.
20:14 mchua walterbender: but we kept getting (very good) questions on why, and stopping to explain what was up, and so it stretched out into... longer than 3 hours.
20:14 walterbender mchua: just because it is public doesn't mean anyone is tuned in :)
20:15 mchua walterbender: Right. Hence the intention to quickly make the kickstart, then the iso, then hit the lists and then listen.
20:15 walterbender mchua: I don't think it is widely known that you guys are in a bind.
20:15 mchua walterbender: Looking back on this morning, we should have said "just wait 2 hours and let us make the kickstart and explain what we're trying out, then we'll talk."
20:15 walterbender: I agree - it isn't, it should be, that is a problem, and we need to be better in the future about communicating those deadlines.
20:16 walterbender mchua: OK. I'll get out of your hair (and try to look into the Write situation tonight)
20:16 mchua walterbender: Doesn't change the beta freeze date being Tuesday though. :)
20:16 walterbender needs to make dinner...
20:16 mchua walterbender: Well - before you go, this is something I /am/ concerned about... do you know if we're going to be actively screwing anyone over if this SoaS version ships with very few Activities
20:17 (even if there's a big push for a lot of supporting documentation that's kid-and-teacher-tested)?
20:17 walterbender mchua: not screwing anyone over, but limiting the amount of testing and feedback you'll get
20:17 mchua Do you know of any deployments who actively expect this next version to have a lot of activities, and can't for some reason use the earlier versions, or aslo?
20:17 walterbender: Okay. That's what I thought, and what I hoped, and that's all right.
20:17 walterbender mchua: I don't think this is a deployment issue.
20:18 mchua We'll get testing and feedback on a smaller number of Activities, most likely, but we can drive the testing/feedback process far better for those few.
20:18 walterbender mchua: deployments for the most part aren't using SoaS...
20:18 mchua walterbender: (I don't want to keep you from cooking dinner - I'll be around for a while if you want to come back later.)
20:19 walterbender: Yep, deployments aren't using SoaS. We would like them to eventually. The purpose of SoaS is to make a product for deployment, and each release should get us closer to that.
20:19 Ideally, we'd have a large number of high-quality releases with actively engaged upstreams and resources that "pull" users into contact with those upstreams.
20:19 er, high-quality activities, I mean.
20:20 But we don't have that yet.
20:20 And my premise is that:
20:20 walterbender but SoaS is a great way to introduce the idea to more people and to expect that after all the pain of making a stick and figuring out how to boot and then finding the wifi drivers because they aren't in F13 and etc to then have to go to ASLO to get activities enough to get the idea is asking too much. we already loose too many people at step 1: downloading SoaS...
20:20 mchua: at least half the machines I run SoaS on have no network...
20:20 mchua instaed of having the intermediate step of "a large number of mixed-quality activities with mostly not-so-actively-engaged upstreams and nearly no resources that "pull" resources into contact with those upstreams..."
20:21 the intermediate step of "a small number of high-quality activities with actively engaged (blah blah blah)" is more likely to get us to the ideal point.
20:21 reads up
20:21 walterbender mchua: well, again, I don't know what is driving the timetables... I'd personally opt for slowing down and getting the activities qualified.
20:21 but if that is not possible...
20:21 mchua walterbender: Hm - your case sounds similar to Sean's, a self-contained demo.
20:22 walterbender: The timetables are driven by the Fedora release schedule, which we have to adhere to as a Spin.
20:22 walterbender: (which brings us a lot of infrastructure advantages - the load of maintaining a build system is off our backs, etc)
20:22 walterbender mchua: well, that may be the problem... we perhaps are one release too soon for being a spin...
20:23 or a few hands short...
20:23 it is too much pressure on sdz
20:23 it is a fine goal, but maybe that is where we bend
20:23 mchua walterbender: How about this - it sounds like we really do want two separate things, a demo stick (where 'quantity' is the important thing, and mixed quality is more ok because it'll be a more "try it out" thing, or in the hands of an experienced demoer)
20:24 walterbender: and a "working towards a solid deployment" stick (where 'quality and upstream engagement' is the important thing, and quantity of activities is small because we only have enough resources to help a few cross that high bar on a short timescale)
20:24 walterbender: the second, imo, is the spin
20:24 walterbender: the first could quickly be done later - at any time, really - as a quick remix
20:24 sdziallas: ^^ ?
20:24 sdziallas mchua:I like that idea, actually. it might make sense to promote  the Fedora version as "rock-solid deployment but can haz  help?" thing and to build a different one using that as a  base... just thinking, not sure.
20:25 mchua: so yes, I'd say that could be an option - and would even prevent us from "trying to innovate and stablize at the same time" :)
20:25 mchua walterbender: That way, you and Sean have the demo sticks you need. And we can market that as... well, it'll basically be SoaS with a bunch of stuff added to it, so it's like "SoaS after you've customized it a lot more"
20:26 walterbender: that way also, the additional stuff on the demo stick wouldn't need to be Fedora packages - we could throw in random .xos, change things on a whim, not be tied to the Fedora release schedule for it, etc.
20:26 walterbender mchua: well, if we will do the remix, then it really doesn't matter... make the "spin" be as austere as you want... but don't advertize that as what end users should be exploring...
20:26 sdziallas mchua: exactly.
20:26 walterbender mchua: for that matter, I think we should have two versions of the helper cd available,,, one with selinux=0
20:26 mchua chuckles
20:27 walterbender mchua:  I am serious.
20:27 mchua walterbender: Oh! Why?
20:27 is missing context here
20:34 Well, either way we should go finish the kickstart file and get this convo out to the lists, albeit some hours belatedly.
20:54 (for those watching in the channel, sdziallas and I are just attacking gobby right now and trying to finish *a* kickstart file so we can actually open up the convo)
21:03 satellit__ sdziallas:The Fedora Unity Project is proud to announce the release of new ISO Re-Spins of Fedora 12. from Bernie in soas lists
21:19 bernie satellit__: yeah, I cc'd him
21:19 mchua bernie: you can make remixes too, you know ;)
21:21 bernie mchua:  I'm already cooking too many builds for paraguay  :-)
21:22 mchua The kickstart file is done and building and we'll see what iso we get.
21:24 drafting explanation in http://etherpad.com/soas-experiment
21:24 sdziallas: ^
21:25 sdziallas mchua: awesome! I'll join you in a sec.
21:25 putting the kickstart in git right now
05:05 satellit__ sdziallas: IRC will not start on soas-3-20100319. workaround is to delete /usr/share/sugar/activities/IRC/activity directory, then DL from ASLO..then it works
09:07 sdziallas: I sent e-mail to soas and you  about IRC on new .iso did you see it?
09:59 mchua satellit__: Thanks for the heads-up on the ticket - we're a bit swamped right now, but I'm going to be looking at the IRC Activity this weekend.
09:59 As part of the "wow, it's been a long time since I was a proper maintainer for that thing" remediation.
10:00 satellit__ mchua: a quick fix is not to include it in build (ks) for now till you have time to fix it
10:01 it can be downloaded from ASLO and it works
10:01 I filed ticket
10:01 mchua satellit__: Good to know - and thanks for the ticket!
10:01 satellit__: I'm staggering under the load of $dayjob stuff that I'm behind on right now, but when I clear that, I'll be taking a look at the activity.
10:02 satellit__: So... just hold tight for a few days.
10:02 satellit__ thanks for all of your great work : )
10:02 * lurking to help test  : )
10:03 mchua satellit__: I may take you up on that. ;)
10:03 satellit__ ok
10:36 christianmarcsch hi everyone
14:20 soasUSB-9c2d test of edited irc auto channels on soas-3 USB
15:03 satellit__ sdzaillas: I have a question. I have built a soas-3-20100319.img of a 2 GB USB that has IRC correction and updates plus an updated TA and analyze. 7 applications. I can upload a compressed file to Tgillard. Everything works should I upload it for testing?
15:08 soasUSB-9c2d this is the USB
15:09 on an my EeePC900 netbook
10:06 erikos_ tomeu: do we start the meeting?
10:06 is on fire!
10:08 tomeu hi!
10:08 hurries
10:08 #startmeeting
10:08 heh, guess it cannot say who started it?
10:08 guess mchua or sdziallas
10:09 sdziallas wth?
10:09 #endmeeting
10:09 this isn't me, it seems.
10:09 mchua: hullo! ;)
10:10 mchua whoops.
10:10 #endmeeting

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