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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2010-03-19 09:50:00

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Time Nick Message
09:51 sdziallas #chair mchua sdziallas
09:51 #topic kickstart history storytime
09:51 just for reference, we're trying to work out how to keep SoaS sustainable.
09:51 so yeah, early days. strawberry.
09:52 we shipped the major fructose activities as .rpm files (you couldn't remove those without root permissions because they lived in /usr/share/sugar/activities) and a chunk of other activities as .xo files.
09:52 mchua Would that have made it not eligible for spinhood?
09:52 the .xos, I mean.
09:52 sdziallas for blueberry, we moved to an .xo file-only approach.
09:53 mchua: ayup, exactly.
09:53 mchua: neither strawberry nor blueberry would have qualified as a spin.
09:53 mchua How did the .xo approach work out?
09:53 Why are we a spin now?
09:53 sdziallas since mirabelle is going to be a Fedora Spin, we're locked down to use .rpms.
09:54 mchua: it didn't work too badly. basically, we hadn't to worry about activities. from a release engineering point of view, it was half-ish crap, though.
09:54 mchua: maybe this is also a lack of... well, here's the thing:
09:54 before we simply pulled the latest activity from a.sl.o (for blueberry).
09:55 that worked or didn't. but if something didn't work, it was the activity maintainers fault (at least with quite some certainty).
09:56 now since we moved to packaging them (basically since Fedora needs a solution anyways and since bundling libraries is Not Such A Good Idea), we're lacking... ressources.
09:56 (oh, and the blueberry release was still worse than the strawberry one, btw)
09:56 mchua Worse in what way?
09:57 sdziallas people got excited about strawberry. there was nothing to get excited about in blueberry. it sucked. the whole release process was screwed (time-wise). I'm still telling the story of me rebuilding the final images frantically in the middle of the night before I took the plane to Toronto.
09:58 I'm having a hard time defining what it was, but yeah...
09:58 mchua Ok, yeah, I remember you doing that. :)
09:59 And being a spin... is a good idea because... packaging is good?
09:59 sdziallas And now I've moved myself into a situation where I've even more to do (expecting that more people jump on board, but that didn't happen) - which means that Mirabelle has a good chance of sucking, too.
09:59 Well, I *need* to do it.
09:59 It's the only way of satisfying both Fedora's and Sugar's needs at the same time.
10:00 And yes, it's a good idea because we've nightly builds (which aren't being thoroughly tested) and the release simply *happens* at one point.
10:00 Maybe I'm just afraid of failing. But blueberry was already fail. Time to learn how to do it better.
10:01 Maybe I should have listened to Peter and folks. Gah.
10:01 What if we moved SoaS out of Fedora again and had simply a Sugar Development Spin?
10:01 One that contained only very few activities but something that people could test stuff with?
10:02 Sugar on a Stick wouldn't be locked down to a release date and we could still ponder with .xo files as we wanted.
10:02 mchua What does being a spin get us?
10:03 What I vaguely recall is that we get to use Fedora's build infrastructure (which is nice, we don't have to maintain that)
10:03 sdziallas (Mel is in question mode, I like that :)
10:03 mchua which means that nightly images magically appear based on the uploaded kickstart file.
10:03 sdziallas right. so nightly builds (which we could setup ourselves)
10:03 yeah. and we wouldn't need to push the *build* button for the final release.
10:03 but I think it'd be actually good to be able to do that.
10:03 mchua Aye, but that's extra infrastructure maintenance and being a sysadmin is not nor should it be part of our core capacity.
10:03 It'd be good?
10:03 How?
10:04 sdziallas We wouldn't release crap just no matter what.
10:04 And people could still test the nightly builds.
10:04 (if SoaS wasn't a spin, but "Sugar Something" was)
10:04 but that would mean two solutions.
10:04 I was originally pretty happy to have achieved the situation I'm currently in.
10:05 Because I felt I'd be doing a good chunk of work more for some time, but would be able to hand that off then.
10:05 (which is mostly: *packaging*)
10:06 The current situation is quite reasonable from a simple rel-eng POV.
10:06 But the more I think, the more I look back at the Strawberry times.
10:06 And then I realize that this approach simply didn't scale.
10:06 Which is why I made this step.
10:06 And then I notice that this thing here doesn't scale either.
10:06 Because nobody cares.
10:07 But to have people care, to get them involved, they need to be excited.
10:07 Mirabelle is not going to have anything exciting.
10:07 And then I wonder where we're heading.
10:07 mchua thinks sustainability is exciting.
10:08 or rather, "watching Sebastian burn out" would be... exciting in a VERY BAD WAY
10:08 so, ah, lack of that excitement is... good. And thus exciting. Being able to grow a community to help out with this is exciting.
10:08 sdziallas Heh. Living on the edge.
10:08 Yes it is.
10:08 But it also needs to be exciting for the contributors.
10:08 I don't worry much about me being exciting.
10:08 s/exciting/excited
10:08 mchua Oh, we can give them shiny pictures of happy cute kids. ;)
10:09 sdziallas grins. heh ;)
10:09 mchua One of the reasons I'm so keen on getting deployments contributing.
10:09 sdziallas yeah, right.
10:09 mchua Anyway. For this release, SoaS is a spin.
10:10 sdziallas ayup. and presumably thereafter, too, unless somebody pays a me a million bucks to screw college. ;)
10:10 mchua Because of the necessity of reducing infrastructure maintenance and workload.
10:10 sdziallas nods.
10:11 mchua Okeydokey.
10:11 So we're stuck with a spin for this release.
10:11 Which means we have to package everything that goes in SoaS.
10:11 Which in some ways is extra work and all, true.
10:11 But in other ways is good, because it means all the code will need to pass Fedora guidelines and be relatively clean and modular, and properly licensed.
10:12 speculates a bit, is that the right reasoning?
10:12 sdziallas this is the reasoning behind it.
10:12 if you look at some stuff, it's quite horrible, though, but it works.
10:12 mchua Okay. So the issue with the kickstart file now is that a lot of the packages that are listed in it just Don't Work
10:12 and the maintainers aren't updating them
10:12 and there's no way you can do it all by yourself.
10:12 (By Tuesday.)
10:13 (which is, for those following along with this log, Beta Freeze for Fedora, which we need to follow since we are a Spin.)
10:13 sdziallas (I figured that final freeze is the cut-off date, so we've some time, but having stuff working by the end of the week would be good)
10:13 well, the thing is that I should be doing most of the packaging related issues...
10:13 mchua #link https://fedoraproject.org/wiki[…]s#Creating_a_Spin
10:13 sdziallas ...and then NAG everybody about the issues I know nothing about.
10:14 however, reducing some kind of load might be good, too.
10:14 mchua Ok. So stuff needs to be trimmed so that you can handle the packaging stuff and the nagging-load.
10:14 (I'll help with the nagging.)
10:14 sdziallas Okay. Thanks :)
10:14 , reducing some kind of load might be good, too.
10:14 mchua sdziallas: is this the point in time where we go ruthlessly slashing the kickstart file? ;)
10:15 sdziallas uh, bad c&p. sorry.
10:15 mchua: mhm, possibly.
10:15 mchua opens up ze gobby
10:15 sdziallas (I'm currently trying to figure out in the background why we won't have a sugar bootscreen for this release, heh.)
10:15 does, too.
10:16 mchua: you want to go for sunjammer? I can run a sobby session there.
10:16 mchua Ok, I have the doc  up, it's called fedora-livecd-soas...
10:16 ...oh, that works too
10:16 sdziallas mchua: or which server should I connect to?
10:17 mchua sdziallas: Sure, just tell me what to connect to when it's up
10:18 sdziallas mchua: sunjammer.sugarlabs.org
10:19 mchua sdziallas: Ok, I have a doc up.
10:19 I'm going to work under the assumption that we both have the .ks file locally available to us, so I'm going to...
10:20 (gimme a second to go SLASH SLASH SLASH)
10:20 sdziallas (good to add yourself there, yes :)
10:20 what is important to know is that @sugar-desktop still contains activities.
10:20 namely, all fructose activities.
10:21 mchua sighs
10:21 sdziallas so we'll either need to do -sugar-write or so or take the base sugar packages and name them directly (which should work)
10:21 LOL!
10:21 mchua How about that, then?
10:21 SLASH AND BURN
10:21 sdziallas pulls up comps
10:21 lols
10:22 alright, I'm pushing the package list in gobby now for you to see.
10:22 mchua oh holy god.
10:22 sdziallas we can kick all the optionals
10:22 they are not getting pulled anyways.
10:23 mchua how about lines 18 - 28?
10:23 can they go without breaking anything that's left?
10:23 sdziallas well, they are the fructose activities.
10:23 mchua so? ;)
10:23 sdziallas so we should probably just add "sugar"
10:24 and remove these.
10:24 mchua ta-dah
10:24 do we need gdm
10:24 ?
10:24 sdziallas BURN BABY BURN
10:24 or some kind of replacement, yes.
10:25 we *might* want to be able to login, right? ;)
10:25 mchua What for? It boots directly into Sugar, I don't see a GNOME login screen.
10:25 is ignorant.
10:25 we can't do that in a virtual terminal?
10:25 sdziallas yes, but you need something to log the liveuser account automatically in.
10:25 mchua Ohh.
10:25 Gotcha.
10:25 Okay. Is gdm working, is it a pain to maintain in any way?
10:25 sdziallas just starting X doesn't work, I hear (because of some policy / security foo things)
10:25 I packaged this: http://www.enricozini.org/sw/nodm/
10:26 looks like exactly what we want, but I haven't been able to get it to work.
10:26 mchua It's used by... just about everyone else in Fedora, so I would expect it to be well-maintained without our intervention, but I could be wrong.
10:26 looks
10:26 what's the benefit of that over gdm?
10:26 sdziallas it has NO dependencies.
10:26 or at least it doesn't pull in $random_bloaty_gnome_crap.
10:26 mchua whereas gdm has... right. Gotcha.
10:26 sdziallas grins.
10:26 but since it's non-working, we'll need to go with gdm for now.
10:26 mchua Okay, um... well, yeah, I'll file nodm as an enhancement we want for v4.
10:27 sdziallas (and probably put a comment to look at nodm at some point)
10:27 ah, awesome!
10:27 mchua you gobby, I'll trac
10:27 sdziallas deal!
10:29 (I'll do a ticket cleaning session in trac at some point this weekend, too)
10:29 mchua sdziallas: what do I do for the distribution/version field, and the milestone field? how do I make sure this is a soas bug?
10:30 sdziallas mchua: SoaS is the *component*
10:30 (this is important - when I clean up the wiki, I'll make sure to put this up highly)
10:30 mchua: distro is fedora - at least here
10:30 and milestone is currently unspecified
10:31 mchua looks
10:31 sdziallas: and I should be ccing sdz, right?
10:31 or do you automagically get it?
10:32 sdziallas you don't need to, because he and mchua automagically get tickets assigned to the component "soas"
10:32 :)
10:33 mchua: btw, here's what I'm thinking for v3 - something like "Do Your Own SoaS! - we included the base, now it's your turn. EXPLORE! - grab whatever you want from our portal, activities.sugarlabs.org"
10:33 mchua Bam.
10:33 yep.
10:33 sdziallas grins. BAM. :)
10:34 satellit_ browse and terminal will be included?
10:34 mchua sdziallas: btw, do we know why nodm doesn't work?
10:34 sdziallas: actually, nm, I'll put the ticket in and you can put more details later if there's time, it's not for this release
10:34 satellit_: Maybe, we haven't gotten to that decision point yet. ;)
10:35 sdziallas I think it might not be up2date for Fedora or there's some other strangeness going on, maybe some missing config file. will need to investigate at some point.
10:35 mchua Okay, I'll just put in the bug... one sec...
10:35 sdziallas: anything else that's needed to start SoaS and run Sugar (with no Activities yet), period?
10:36 sdziallas mchua: well...
10:36 satellit_ they are needed to go to aslo and edit
10:36 sdziallas mchua: gvfs is needed to show external hard drives.
10:36 mchua: gnome-power-manager is needed for... guess what? :) power management
10:37 and you don't have audio right now, but since we don't have any activities, that's alright.
10:37 mchua #link http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/1849
10:37 for the record
10:38 sdziallas mchua: you rock!
10:38 mchua satellit_: Yep, and those are both good arguments for adding them back in later, but we haven't gotten to that part yet.
10:38 satellit_: Right now, we're trying to start with the bare bones of "what will make Sugar work at all?"
10:38 satellit_ ok  anaconda (for liveinst)?
10:39 mchua sdziallas: I'm noticing we're using lots of GNOME stuff here, is that where we want to end up?
10:39 has nothing against GNOME, just likes using slimmer things if available
10:39 (...says the person who runs KDE)
10:39 sdziallas mchua: here? you mean when talking gvfs and power-manager?
10:39 mchua: (right now) :)
10:39 mchua sdziallas: Yeah, g(anything)
10:40 sdziallas mchua: well, that's probably because we're close to gnome... so I guess we'll need to live with that.
10:40 mchua: I recall tomeu advocating for these two packages.
10:40 mchua satellit_: hold on a bit - write up a list of packages you'd like considered in the background, and when we're done with this first pass through "what do we need to make Sugar work at all?" then we can take a look at yours, to see if we're missing anything.
10:40 tomeu yeah, rewriting those wheels doesn't look like a good idea to me
10:40 mchua satellit_: (we're doing a non-Activities pass first, and then an Activities pass.)
10:41 tomeu: Agreed.
10:41 sdziallas: Okay, they're in, where do they go?
10:41 sdziallas tomeu: I'm trying to have less on my plate, heh :) rewriting gvfs doesn't sound like... a good idea, agreed.
10:41 mchua: I'd put them into system, maybe with an explanation why we want them?
10:41 mchua: (I like that you added that for gdm, too)
10:41 mchua and by doing this I get to learn about kickstart files yay!
10:42 sdziallas hehe :)
10:42 mchua sdziallas: what else is needed to run Sugar?
10:42 Is that it?
10:42 sdziallas I think that's it.
10:43 mchua looks at old ks just in case
10:43 satellit_: Okeydokey, what's your list?
10:43 sdziallas Because the rest gets pulled in through dependencies.
10:43 mchua satellit_: (non-Activities first)
10:43 sdziallas (as, installing sugar pulls $good_chunk_of_stuff)
10:43 satellit_ mucha: liveusb-creator, gedit, wget, yum, gvfs
10:43 mchua sdziallas: Woo boy. Okay.
10:43 Ah, package management.
10:44 looks at time
10:44 sdziallas: shall we move to Activities and try to wrap before the SLOBs meeting?
10:44 satellit_ plus browse and terminal
10:44 sdziallas mchua: sounds good to me.
10:44 mchua satellit_: (it's mchua, btw - my screen won't flash for 'mucha' ;)
10:45 satellit_: ok - rationale for each? we can take them one by one.
10:45 satellit_ mchua: sorry : /
10:45 gvfs for disk access
10:45 mchua satellit_: np :)
10:46 satellit_ terminal for editing and access to yum
10:46 mchua satellit_: we have gvfs already, so that's set.
10:46 satellit_: good to have that confirmation.
10:46 satellit_ wget for uploading
10:46 gedit for easier editing than vi
10:46 mchua satellit_: actually, the terminal thing brings up a good point... do we need the terminal *activity* or can the current things in the kickstart file give us a VT?
10:46 sdziallas: ^?
10:47 satellit_ liveusb-creator which can be "sugarixed" as an applicaion in sugar
10:47 mchua satellit_: That would be nice, but it's not necessary to *run* Sugar
10:47 I'd think of that as an enhancement for later if we have bandwidth to maintain more.
10:47 Right now we're going for *super* minimalist.
10:47 sdziallas mchua: you could press alt + Fx and do stuff there, afaics.
10:47 satellit_ http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/C[…]e_liveusb-creator
10:48 mchua sdziallas: Ok, so we don't really need any other terminal stuff.
10:48 sdziallas: does the image already come with yum? Because if it does, that solves just about everything else
10:48 sdziallas: people can install their own stuff, and we're not on the hook for supporting it
10:48 sdziallas mchua: we're including a base kickstart file - and need to do that - so that you get a good chunk of packages directly.
10:49 mchua satellit_: A sugarized liveusb creator - and gedit - and so forth - would be nice to have, but that's exactly it; they would be "nice to have," not "nothing will work if we do not have them."
10:49 sdziallas (such as yum, which comes in one of these groups we pull)
10:49 @base-x
10:49 @base
10:49 @core
10:49 @hardware-support
10:49 @fonts
10:49 @input-methods
10:49 kernel
10:49 memtest86+
10:49 mchua satellit_: So I'm going to say we should pass on them for this round, because they aren't stricly necessary - and then perhaps provide instructions for how people can install it themselves, for this version.
10:49 satellit_ how do I access yum without terminal?
10:50 mchua satellit_: if maintainers step up to make sure those things work for future versions, great! Then those can be added to the v4 kickstart.
10:50 notes we should probably set criteria for inclusion in soas
10:50 #note We need to set inclusion criteria for SoaS for v4 and beyond.
10:50 sdziallas that sounds like a good plan!
10:50 mchua satellit_: Virtual terminals. if you're running Linux right now, press Ctrl+F5
10:51 satellit_ ok
10:51 mchua satellit_: (or Ctrl-F(anynumber))
10:51 satellit_: (Ctrl-F1 will usually get you back to GNOME or KDE or whatever wm you're using)
10:51 ...gee, I hope he read the "how to get back" directions before he... went off to virtual terminals.
10:51 satellit_ in soas...how
10:51 mchua oh, good. :)
10:52 satellit_: Same thing. Ctrl-F(key).
10:52 This is standard stuff on Linux systems.
10:52 satellit_ thanks...will test later on ubuntu netbook here
10:52 mchua satellit_: Whoops. It may be Ctrl+Alt+F(number).
10:53 ...yep, Ctrl+Alt+F(number). Sorry about that, I mix up my keyboard shortcuts sometimes.
10:53 satellit_ : )
10:53 mchua satellit_: it just takes a moment, you could easily check it out now.
10:53 sdziallas: Anyway, in the interests of time - can we say "yum is already included, people can download whatever else they need from there"?
10:53 sdziallas mchua: ayup!
10:54 mchua #agreed people can yum install further programs for this release if needed, we should provide instructions on how to do so
10:54 foresees fun with publican
10:54 forsees? foresees? whatever the right spelling is.
10:54 sdziallas YAY YAY YAY :)
10:54 mchua sdziallas: Okay, wow, 8 minutes left
10:54 sdziallas: ACTIVITIES GO
10:55 sdziallas alrighty!
10:55 do you just want to head through each or how do we do this best?
10:56 mchua sdziallas: Start with 0 and then add them back - what's the 1st Activity you'd add back, the 2nd, and then so on?
10:56 sdziallas: actually we could pause here and take up the question again when SLOBs is over.
10:56 sdziallas mchua: that would probably give us some time... yeah.
10:56 sounds good.
10:56 mchua #info where we're leaving off: Activity selection
10:56 Aaaand I will take the logs and put them on some wiki page somewhere...
10:56 #endmeeting
10:56 sdziallas awesome! mchua, thanks :)
10:57 mchua ...wait, meetbot?
10:57 sdziallas mhm.
10:57 #endmeeting

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