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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2010-01-13 11:40:00

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11:40 lfaraone basically, I asked if they had any spare servers in Sept, and they emailed today saying "hi, we've got them in sets of 3, we'll send you four boxes if you pick up shipping"
11:40 bernie hello
11:40 dogi is coming
11:40 silbe #topic server donations from WikiMedia foundation
11:40 lfaraone they've been in service for three year, and are out of warranty, which is why WMF doens't want them.
11:41 will brb in less than 5.
11:41 silbe oh, that was a quit, not a join... let's wait for him.
11:42 dogi #startmeeting
11:43 hui
11:43 walterbender bernie: if you want them, we can cover the shipping, I am sure
11:43 silbe #link http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]0100113_1140.html
11:43 dogi hi all
11:43 walterbender dogi: long time, no see :)
11:43 dogi :)
11:44 silbe dogi: lfaraone will join us in < 5 minutes
11:45 bernie the specs are not impressive, but you don't look a gift server in the case
11:45 lfaraone Back.
11:46 silbe ok, let's start then
11:46 dogi #link http://me.etin.gs/treehouse/tr[…]0100112_1546.html
11:46 +1
11:46 bernie Dual CPU 2.5 GHz AMD
11:46      * 3-4GB RAM Each
11:46      * Most have 80 GB or larger HDD
11:47 silbe we need to decide NOW, so I'd argue that we give more priority to the "we want them" side - we can always send them elsewhere later if it turns out we have no use for them
11:48 they're not top-notch, but still pretty decent (likely better than anything i own)
11:48 lfaraone So I can host 3U of them in Virginia.
11:48 (one at TW IX, where we have a gur. 10mbits connection, one at the ACC, (as long as we don't have heavy network usage), and one at Obscure.org)
11:48 dogi +1 silbe
11:49 silbe one pro argument i've given yesterday is that we might use a set of them to experiment with scaling aslo - as (rightly) argued on systems@ it doesn't make a lot of sense to set up three VMs on the same host for that
11:49 lfaraone Since they are shipped in groups of 3, I was figuring we can send 2 boxes (6) to Walter and the other two to the ACC, where we can move them to TWIX and Obscure.
11:50 bernie we need to ask RIT how much rack space we're allowed to use
11:50 silbe what's ACC and Obscure? I guess TWIX is the ISP mentioned yesterday...
11:51 lfaraone silbe: ACC is the arlington career center, c/o Jeff.
11:51 bernie silbe: we have an offer from transworldix to rack one machine there
11:51 silbe: and one at rit
11:51 silbe so ACC=RIT, TWIX=transworldix?
11:51 lfaraone silbe: Obscure is a non-profit ISP-ish organization that does some sugar and educational stuff.
11:51 silbe: RIT == rit.edu
11:51 silbe: RIT is in NY
11:51 dogi is interested in checking some them ... he is right now in boston :)
11:51 bernie since the machines are 1U, perhaps racking 3 of them wouldn't be a problem for rit?
11:52 dogi +1 bernie
11:52 walterbender bernie: so maybe ship one box to Boston, one to NY?
11:52 dogi who is NY? walter?
11:52 lfaraone dogi: RIT is.
11:52 dogi: and dfarning, iirc.
11:53 dogi thx
11:53 walterbender lfaraone: dfarning is in WI :)
11:53 silbe yeah, let's dfarning take the aslo servers into his home ;)
11:53 dogi +1 walterbender
11:54 cjb bernie: (just read scrollback) looks good!
11:54 bernie invites djbclark
11:54 lfaraone okay, so the plan is 2 boxes (6 servers) to ACC in VA, 1b/3s to Walter in MA, and 1b/3s to RIT in NY, afaict.
11:54 dogi +1 cjb
11:55 lfaraone (two to ACC since we have multiple area partners)
11:55 cjb whoa
11:55 there are 12 servers?
11:55 I don't think we need 12 servers
11:56 silbe cjb: they are out of warranty; WMF recommended to use some of them as spares
11:56 lfaraone cjb: WMF told us that they don't want to send less, since some may break.
11:56 bernie cjb: yeah, I wouldn't take more than 3
11:56 cjb ah, interesting
11:57 lfaraone cjb: they have been running Wikipedia for 3 years, it's every server's worst nightmare.
11:57 dogi lol
11:57 likes the idea wikipedia sponsoring  us :P
11:58 bernie if we're going to cluster aslo, we require minimum 2 machines in the same location.
11:58 silbe the only backside of the deal is that they're rather low on HD space
11:58 bernie otherwise, I see no reason to move it away from sunjammer
11:58 silbe: aslo does not need much disk space
11:58 lfaraone silbe: 80gb?
11:59 silbe bernie: how much does it need, actually?
11:59 lfaraone: that's not even enough for 8 buildslaves :-/
12:00 (we have bender for that, just using as a comparison)
12:00 bernie silbe: lol
12:00 dogi silbe, lol for messuring in buildslaves
12:01 bernie silbe: since bender has very little b/w and had been not very reliable in the past, I wouldn't mind replacing it in the future
12:01 silbe: current aslo is 4.5GB, plus the db
12:01 silbe so we already have a use for some of them: aslo scaling and buildslaves
12:02 bernie but we want the db centralized of course
12:02 silbe bernie: ok, sounds reasonable enough. hey, we could even move it to RAM ;)
12:03 lfaraone bernie: we can't do anything bandwidth-intensive at ACC, but we can with TWIX. (Obscure is in the middle somewhat on that)
12:03 I'll see if I can squeeze another U or two out of TWIX>
12:03 bernie another way to scale aslo up in the short term  would be to purchase a modern server machine which would be 8-10 times faster than sunjammer
12:03 this is the simplest solution and therefore my favorite
12:03 it does not require special sysadmin skills
12:04 it is much much more robust
12:04 cjb bernie: could a WMF machine be good enough?
12:04 (I agree that using one machine should be preferred)
12:04 bernie cjb: we have found cheap hardware with 8 cores
12:04 neuralis: ping?
12:04 silbe bernie: but we still need to scale aslo to multiple machines in the future - we just move the breaking point (which is good, of course)
12:05 djbclark: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]0100113_1140.html
12:06 djbclark silbe: thx
12:06 bernie silbe: yes, this is only a short term solution
12:06 cjb bernie: right, but that doesn't really answer the question
12:06 bernie: how many cores do the WMF machines have?  do you think they could handle ASLO?
12:06 bernie silbe: "short term" probably means 2 years at the current growth rate
12:07 dogi we have in the end to decide only if we want them first?
12:07 bernie cjb: they don't say. probably one core
12:07 dogi is there something speaking against?
12:07 bernie cjb: I would expect those to be the same of sunjammer or slower
12:07 silbe bernie: what was dfarnings estimate for us outgrowing sunjammer? would we (who?) have enough time for setting up clustered aslo without the "intermediate" solution?
12:08 dogi has time to look if this machines are worth the time ...
12:08 cjb bernie: you'd expect "Dual CPU 2.5 GHz AMD" to be slower than sunjammer?
12:08 dogi even i have to travel to DC
12:08 bernie silbe: he said we were doubling every 3 months
12:09 silbe: I think it's more correct to say "we doubled in three months". growth seemed to be linear
12:09 cjb dogi: not speaking against, it sounds good but it's a lot of machines.  I think the only argument against would be that since we only need something like 1-3, it might be better to let them go to someone who's going to use them.
12:09 bernie silbe: it is not easy to tell how much we'll grow in the future, but lately we've been seeing a *reduction* in traffic:
12:09 http://sunjammer.sugarlabs.org[…]che_accesses.html
12:10 cjb bernie: (oops, I got sunjammer and solarsail confused :)
12:10 bernie I asked aa and rgs and they told me that schools are closed in uruguay and paraguay, which would explain the current trend
12:10 silbe interesting, might be term-related
12:10 bernie we can't easily predict how many more kids will use aslo over the next school year in latam
12:11 cjb: sunjammer is a "Dual-Core AMD Opteron(tm) Processor 2216 HE"
12:11 cjb: we also need to transition away from solarsail, btw
12:11 cjb nod
12:12 bernie cjb: it's too slow to run trac and the wiki, and the OS is aging with no good support in latest releases of ubuntu
12:12 cjb yup
12:12 dogi thats why i agree bernies idea to buy a new machine ala sunjammer, too
12:12 bernie treehouse and housetree would be fast enough, but the hardware is consumer-grade... not sure we want to host really critical stuff there
12:13 lfaraone Okay. Can we get agreement on the destinations of the 12 servers from WMF?
12:13 bernie dogi: we have at least $2000 earmarked already, we'd have to get to $3000
12:13 lfaraone: right, let's get back on track
12:13 lfaraone: are you in the loop with RIT?  I guess not
12:13 lfaraone: we should ask them if it's ok to host 3 1U machines there
12:13 lfaraone bernie: no, I am not.
12:14 silbe sounds like a bunch of new servers could help us expand and avoid buying a new machine from our limited funds (but we'd probably need some additional parts) in exchange for increased admin overhead
12:14 lfaraone bernie: assuming they all work :)
12:14 bernie lfaraone: since i'll be traveling for the next 25h, I'd prefer if you did the talking.
12:14 #action bernie will forward email communication between us and rit to lfaraone
12:14 I can't do action items?
12:14 djbclark suggests a limited-access mailing list when dealing with sites that donate machines / services
12:15 bernie dogi: you're chairing the meeting
12:15 dogi no
12:15 djbclark (seems to work well with lemote)
12:15 lfaraone bernie: silbe is.
12:15 silbe #action bernie will forward email communication between us and rit to lfaraone
12:15 djbclark (that way if the person handling it normally has to stop, it's easy for another to see history and pick up)
12:15 lfaraone silbe: +1, I think you can safely mark that #agreed
12:16 djbclark: that sounds like a good use for RT :)
12:16 bernie djbclark: systems@lists.sugarlabs.org is kind of limited access. subscriptions require approval and archives are not public
12:16 silbe #agreed
12:16 djbclark throws up in the nearest available receptical
12:16 bernie lfaraone, djbclark: I would not mind installing rt for sugarlabs. the problem is getting people to actually use it.
12:17 dogi can create an rtVM on treehouse
12:17 is there an interest
12:17 djbclark lfaraone: RT is fail when working with externals; people add people to cc: and then tickets get duped. Roundup is a bit better. And perhaps newer RT, FSF has rather old version running.
12:17 silbe isn't RT the system OLPC used for handling sending out the salvaged XOs? they managed to send each of their replies to a different email address of mine ;)
12:18 dogi +1 silbe
12:19 silbe so to get back on topic (i need to continue work on my thesis), what do we do about the servers?
12:19 bernie djbclark, dogi, silbe: so let's explore other possibilities... who wants to do that?
12:19 silbe do we want them?
12:19 dogi yes
12:19 bernie silbe: your email addressing scheme defeats me too btw :)
12:20 silbe bernie: do what?
12:20 bernie: :-P
12:20 if defeats SPAM as well, though :)
12:20 bernie silbe: can't you just get plenty of spam like anyone else? :-)
12:20 dogi hopes to be able help dfarning in RIT
12:22 cjb silbe: as long as WMF understands that we only plan on using ~2 of them, +1 on taking them from me
12:22 bernie dogi: I'm not sure dfarning wants to be in the loop, but it would be great if you could convince him...
12:22 lfaraone Do we want them in the places I've described earlier? (6 - {ACC, TWIX, Obscure}, 3 - RIT, 3 - Walter)
12:22 cjb: SLDC will be sure to use all of the available servers :)
12:23 silbe bernie: +1 on getting dfarning motivated again, it would help us a great deal
12:23 djbclark bernie: I would suggest setting up a mailing list since that can be done with existing systems in a few minutes; if that ends up being annoying, can always set up a issue tracking system and redirect the list address there later.
12:23 bernie silbe: I'll try to call him on the phone from the airport to say goodbye.
12:24 silbe sorry to display my lack of geographic knowledge again - is any of the other places near DC?
12:24 bernie djbclark: can't we just use systems@ for this? I'm trying to reduce the proliferation of dozens of deserted mailing lists, like at olpc
12:25 cjb bernie: +1
12:25 bernie silbe: no, rit is in NY (a few hours drive west from boston)
12:25 cjb bernie: btw, can I subscribe to systems@?  is it just for people with root, or any infra team members?
12:25 silbe then i'd say we should ship at least one box to DC
12:25 bernie lfaraone: sounds good, pending authorization from RIT and TWIX
12:26 djbclark bernie: unless the RIT people want to get a lot of unrelated email, that would seem inadvisable. Oh unless you mean like just be sure to always cc: systems and then set systems to allow posts by RIT people... that would work but have to be cognisant; also in that case, perhaps bounce existing emails to systems@?
12:26 bernie lfaraone: can you check shipment costs? it may be quite high, since each machine probably weights ~20kg
12:26 dogi lol
12:27 silbe wow, what did they put in it? lead or something?
12:27 cjb oh, I thought someone else was paying shipping :)
12:27 yes, shipping will surely be hundreds of dollars
12:27 lfaraone bernie: they estimated about 300usd for all of them, but they said that they couldcover it if it was a problem.
12:27 djbclark bernie: I may be driving to DC area soon to visit a friend; this is RIT -> DC?
12:27 lfaraone djbclark: right now they are in florida :)
12:30 bernie walterbender: to explore the other path, we need to find out if we can afford $3000 on infrastructure
12:30 lfaraone djbclark: i'm not sure if FL>DC is cheaper than FL>MA
12:30 bernie djbclark: no, transworldix is in dc. rit is in rochester.
12:33 lfaraone has to go to class...
12:35 So I'll report back with the estimated shipping costs.
12:36 dogi 6 -> dc (lfarone), 3 -> rit (dfarning), 3 -> bos (walterbender)
12:36 ?? did i understand that right?
12:37 +1 lfaraone
12:37 bernie lfaraone: sent email to you and systems@
12:37 silbe dogi: i think so
12:38 dogi thx
12:38 :)
12:38 cu
12:38 bernie lfaraone: are you also going to write to twix to confirm they're still going to host us? they did not reply last time I wrote to them
12:38 lfaraone: I hope they haven't changed their mind
12:38 dogi s laptop is going out of power ...
12:39 bernie let's wind down
12:39 dogi #endmeeting?
12:39 bernie sdziallas: ciao
12:39 dogi: I guess meetbot did not like the ?
12:39 dogi #endmeeting
12:39 silbe #endmeeting

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