| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 10:35 | walterbender | hi |
| 10:35 | sdziallas | #TOPIC Sugar on a Stick v2 -- General Discussion |
| 10:35 | hi everybody :) | |
| 10:35 | caroline | hi, is there a wiki page we should all have open for reference? |
| 10:36 | sdziallas | caroline: yup, the roadmap would be useful, I think |
| 10:36 | #LINK http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]n_a_Stick/Roadmap | |
| 10:36 | that's actually where I'd like to start, too | |
| 10:37 | the reason why I wanted to get us together is that I'd like to set the way for the next SoaS release and mainly it's features. | |
| 10:37 | what we need are well defined features, on which people can work then. | |
| 10:38 | caroline drafted already her needs for an actual use case, a deployment up. (thanks) :) | |
| 10:38 | caroline | I came up with a list and someone was kind enough to put themin the wiki for me. Anyone know where it is? |
| 10:38 | sdziallas | #LINK http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]_on_a_Stick/Goals |
| 10:38 | caroline: ^^ | |
| 10:38 | caroline | cool, need to add: All activities can be updated from a.sl.o |
| 10:38 | walterbender | many of the things on this list are Sugar bugs/features, not SoaS features |
| 10:39 | we should not confuse the two | |
| 10:39 | sdziallas | walterbender: that's something we should sort out somehow, yeah (the same goes probably the "preliminary feature" list on the roadmap's page) |
| 10:39 | tomeu | one soas2 feature would be sugar 0.86? |
| 10:39 | caroline | +1 |
| 10:39 | sdziallas | tomeu: yup, definitely :) |
| 10:40 | caroline | Backup and Restore with School Server - This might be a SoaS specific goal. |
| 10:40 | Sugar on a Stick works with a VM, - definitely SoaS specific | |
| 10:41 | sdziallas | yup, agreed! |
| 10:41 | caroline | A Sugar machine can also run a SoaS - where does this one belong? |
| 10:42 | Sugar works on lesser hardware, say Pentium III 256M - Ths is another questionable one. I think its actually a Sugar goal. Because people might want to run it installed on these machines. | |
| 10:42 | tomeu | backup may need some bits done in upstream sugar? |
| 10:42 | sdziallas | caroline: the "one lesser hardware" one is a Sugar related, I'd say. |
| 10:42 | daveb | not in sugar but related packages. |
| 10:42 | caroline | I think it actually mostly works now, we just need to get it into an actual release. |
| 10:42 | daveb | well registration os soas requies sugar change. |
| 10:43 | tomeu | caroline, sdziallas: well, there are ways in which a packager can make sugar run worse on slower hardware |
| 10:43 | caroline | and changes on XS |
| 10:43 | tomeu | or better |
| 10:43 | so it could be a goal for both, but we should specify what improvements are needed (memory, etc) | |
| 10:43 | caroline | Another one to add to the list is More Hardware Supported |
| 10:43 | daveb | caroline: i don't think it requires any changes on the XS. |
| 10:44 | sdziallas | caroline, daveb: for the schoolserver, we might want to ping Martin (Langhoff)... |
| 10:44 | daveb | right. we'll keep him in the loop. he also is working on the client side packages. |
| 10:44 | satellit | install directly on lesser machine? Instlall disk? |
| 10:44 | caroline | What is our goal for this meeting? should we be diving into solutions? Should be be making a list? Do we want it prioritized today? |
| 10:45 | sdziallas | well, I'd love to see a list with our goals, sorted out, here |
| 10:45 | #LINK http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]a_Stick/Proposals | |
| 10:45 | we don't need necessarily owners, yet (I started with firstboot & install support) | |
| 10:46 | walterbender | If we can just sort out the Sugar vs SoaS vs XS features that would be an accomplishment |
| 10:46 | caroline | who is the owner? the one who will do the programming or the champion that needs it done? |
| 10:46 | sdziallas | caroline: maybe we should add a "reporter" field there, too. owner is the one who does the programming, imo. |
| 10:46 | walterbender: yeah, +1 | |
| 10:47 | caroline | why don't we call it Champion, its such a cool name :) |
| 10:47 | and a reporter might be someone who finds it then walks away. | |
| 10:47 | sdziallas | grins... I won't prevent you from calling it that way :p |
| 10:47 | tomeu | caroline++ |
| 10:47 | sdziallas | hi erikos :) |
| 10:47 | tomeu | we may list several people, btw |
| 10:47 | caroline | We also need on this page a way to indicate what priority it has |
| 10:48 | sdziallas | yeah, right. so another priority field! |
| 10:48 | caroline | #Action Add Sugar on a Stick works with a VM to the Proposal Page |
| 10:49 | Combine Sugar Live CD, Boothelper, & USB Creator on one image - Is this a dup with a Live Install Support | |
| 10:50 | sdziallas | I'm not sure... proabably. Live Install support means you can install SoaS to your harddisk... |
| 10:51 | caroline | Its your call. Do you want one big proposal for the super duper installer CD or do you want it broken up? |
| 10:52 | sdziallas | caroline: well, the install-to-harddisk support will come (hopefully) anyway... I'd go for an extra feature. |
| 10:53 | caroline | #Action turn Combine Sugar Live CD, Boothelper, & USB Creator on one image into a proposal |
| 10:54 | sdziallas | next! :) |
| 10:54 | tomeu | I think it needs to be in allcaps |
| 10:54 | for the bot to notice | |
| 10:54 | caroline | Do we need a proposal for Make all activities updatable via A.sl.org |
| 10:54 | #ACTION turn Combine Sugar Live CD, Boothelper, & USB Creator on one image into a proposal | |
| 10:54 | sdziallas | caroline: definitely! (even though this shouldn't take too long) |
| 10:55 | caroline | #ACTION Make a proposal to have all activities updatable via A.sl.org |
| 10:55 | sdziallas | (posting from above) |
| 10:55 | #ACTION Add Sugar on a Stick works with a VM to the Proposal Page | |
| 10:55 | caroline | Sugar on a Stick works with a VM - This is requires SoaS has accessible files |
| 10:56 | should we have two proposals? | |
| 10:56 | Do people know what I mean by accessible files, is there a better way to say that? | |
| 10:56 | tomeu | doesn't know |
| 10:56 | daveb | do you mean you can get inside the squashfs? |
| 10:56 | sdziallas | caroline: you don't want the user's files to be into a compressed image on the usb key... |
| 10:56 | daveb | the VM could mount it |
| 10:56 | caroline | Right now Fedora is storing everything on the stick in images so no other system can see it. |
| 10:57 | sdziallas | daveb: I guess that's the right direction |
| 10:57 | daveb | its not clear with "with a VM" means |
| 10:57 | caroline | right so do we have two proposals here? |
| 10:57 | sdziallas | caroline: yup! |
| 10:57 | walterbender | independent of VM, not having access to the user files outside of Sugar is a bug |
| 10:58 | satellit | virtualbox and VMPlayer compatable files? |
| 10:58 | sdziallas | caroline: though I think the "works with a VM" also concerns "have a joint release of VMs / USB key images"... |
| 10:58 | caroline | #ACTION make files accessible outside of Sugar Proposal. |
| 10:58 | #ACTION - SoaS works with a free VM client - Proposal | |
| 10:58 | sdziallas | satellit: yup, definitely a feature. should go into joint release for VMs / USB keys / XOs. |
| 10:59 | daveb | i think we need live install to make VMs containing soas viable. |
| 10:59 | caroline | is that a 3rd propoal, that we have simulatnous releases or is that an implementation detail? |
| 10:59 | ok | |
| 11:00 | #ACTION proposal for joint release for VMs / USB keys / XOs. | |
| 11:00 | daveb | i think that was already listed? |
| 11:00 | sdziallas | daveb: you mean having SoaS installed on to the VMs hard drive?! |
| 11:00 | daveb | sdziallas: yes |
| 11:00 | sdziallas | daveb: I agree then :) |
| 11:00 | satellit | boot CD with VMPlayer or virtualbox loaded and running from CD? |
| 11:01 | caroline | satellit - maybe the proposal is to create a VMPlayer CD that allows boot by CD then fast user switching? |
| 11:02 | satellit | yes so a stick inserted in usb can be run from boot cd |
| 11:03 | caroline | #ACTION create a VMPlayer CD that allows boot by CD then fast user switching - Create proposal |
| 11:03 | What about chipsets issues, we need braodcom, we need touchscreen, we'll surely find more things we need to add and track down. | |
| 11:04 | are those propsosals or is not having a chipset covered a bug and we'll track them each as bugs? | |
| 11:04 | walterbender | I would argue that the way we address that is to make it easy for end users (or intermediaries) to add things |
| 11:04 | sdziallas | that's a thing how we handle that (with regard to our policies) I guess. I'd call them more bugs than features. |
| 11:04 | walterbender | but not to add them at the Fedora or Sugar Labs level... |
| 11:04 | caroline | walterbender, which them? |
| 11:05 | walterbender | Fedora should decide what drivers it is comfortable to ship... |
| 11:05 | we can make recommendations, but it is their call | |
| 11:05 | caroline | I think we should actively encourage Fedora to have good chipset coverage. |
| 11:05 | walterbender | and SoaS shouldn't drift from Fedora |
| 11:05 | caroline | and also help distrubtors create custom spins to fill holes. |
| 11:06 | walterbender | caroline: sure... but it will be a headache for any number of reasons for sdz to maintain a list of drivers that Fedora won ship |
| 11:06 | uonuon't | |
| 11:06 | tomeu | caroline: we should understand first the reasons why fedora isn't shipping them |
| 11:06 | walterbender | aarg... playing with the US International keyboard |
| 11:06 | caroline | I think we agree mostly, but I think we need to be actively helpful. Someone needs to maintain that list and that someone probaably is on Sdz's team. |
| 11:06 | dsd_ | fedora do a good job of hardware support, even brand new stuff, and are actively on-the-case |
| 11:06 | caroline | tomeu, yes, and make sure they are sure about those reasons. |
| 11:06 | dsd_ | i wouldnt have thought this is much of a concern for sugar |
| 11:07 | walterbender | if we make it easy to add things downstream, then we don't need to second-guess Fedora |
| 11:07 | caroline | I think we do need to keep track of what works and what doesn't and why and how to fix. |
| 11:07 | tomeu | dsd_: well, for some deployers it may be |
| 11:07 | walterbender | dsd_: it is more the old stuff, not the new stuff :) |
| 11:07 | tomeu | not so much for sugar itself |
| 11:07 | caroline | walterbender. I think we done need to interact with Fedora, they need to know someone cares. |
| 11:07 | dsd_ | i worry that sugar is moving too much into distribution land |
| 11:07 | when there are already many experts doing that job outside | |
| 11:07 | caroline | dsd_ there is no one else out there in distribution land. |
| 11:07 | dsd_ | and there is so much sugar work to be done as "just an upstream" |
| 11:08 | walterbender | caroline: agreed, but we cannot count on their always agreeing... downstream, you need to be able to customize |
| 11:08 | sdziallas_ | got disconnected, sorry |
| 11:08 | caroline | right, we need to actively work both sides to make work steadily on increasing the hardware coverage. |
| 11:08 | dsd_ | if F11 doesnt work for a particular deployment? get them to work with fedora |
| 11:08 | tomeu | dsd_: this is a soas meeting, not sugar ;) |
| 11:08 | caroline | dsd_ there is no them. |
| 11:08 | walterbender | dsd_: exactly my point. SoaS shouldn't second-guess Fedora... we should just make sure that downstream from there, there is a way to add things |
| 11:09 | sdziallas | walterbender: maybe this could result in a "make customization of SoaS easier" proposal? |
| 11:09 | caroline | so far we have gotten Fedora to add what we need. I don't see why we shoudl assume they won't in the future. They might not, but I think mostly they will want to. |
| 11:09 | dsd_ | caroline: fedora already is a distribution, that supports a lot of hardware, and strives to support more and more. there is a them :) |
| 11:09 | walterbender | sdziallas: yes |
| 11:09 | sdziallas | (hinting at trademark stuff here, but that should be discussed at a different time) :) |
| 11:10 | walterbender | dsd_: there will always be a gap between what Fedora can/will do and what some deplyment needs... |
| 11:10 | caroline | no the them that doesn't exist is the deployment, right now the deployments are an US. Hoepfully in the next round after Novemeber there will be some Them deployments. |
| 11:10 | walterbender | dsd_: so sdziallas ís on the right track, IMHO |
| 11:10 | dsd_ | which track is that? |
| 11:10 | sdziallas | caroline: just btw, I saw the (open source) broadcom driver might have finally made it into Fedora |
| 11:10 | walterbender | sdziallas: I need to disappear for a meeting across campus... |
| 11:10 | erikos | caroline: that is not correct, I have two deployments here in germany |
| 11:10 | caroline | sdz exactly my point and I think we had a hand in makign that happen. |
| 11:11 | erikos, aren't you part of us? | |
| 11:11 | walterbender | dsd_: ' make customization of SoaS easier' |
| 11:11 | sdziallas | walterbender: yeah, okay ;) thanks for being here! catch you later... |
| 11:11 | erikos | caroline: i read US as US ;p |
| 11:11 | caroline: USA | |
| 11:11 | caroline | sorry I meant Us vs Them |
| 11:11 | dsd_ | walterbender: ok, agreed..that sounds more scalable than entering the driver game |
| 11:11 | erikos | caroline: sorry, I am sleepy today |
| 11:11 | caroline | right now all of us doing deployments of SoaS are SugarLabs insiders and thus its this team working these issues. |
| 11:11 | erikos | goes back to sleeping position |
| 11:12 | sdziallas | dsd_: it's the "follow Fedora as closely as possible but encourage people to do customizations" track :) |
| 11:12 | tomeu | also understood US as in US :p |
| 11:12 | caroline | hopefully by Nov it'll be more like OLPC with some people who are quite separate doing deployments. |
| 11:12 | dsd_ | sdziallas: as long as you communicate "customizations are expensive" as well |
| 11:12 | walterbender | also thought of the US of A :) |
| 11:12 | caroline | and I'd like to add, actively communicate with Fedora about what we need. |
| 11:12 | sorry | |
| 11:12 | walterbender | has to run... will see caroline in a few hours |
| 11:12 | tomeu | I'm a bit lost, what are we discussing now? |
| 11:13 | sdziallas | dsd_: yeah, good point actually... |
| 11:13 | caroline | erikos, it woudl be awesome if you also posted updates about your pilots to IAEP. |
| 11:13 | erikos | caroline: i blog about it |
| 11:13 | caroline | we are discussiiong the fact between now and Nov we'll spend a lot of time fussing about chipset support. |
| 11:13 | sdziallas | tomeu: you're right... |
| 11:14 | dsd_ | caroline: you envision attacking chipset support in general, or only for the machines included in the GPA and erikos deployments? |
| 11:14 | caroline | I think its going to be a big part of our work in general. |
| 11:14 | dsd_ | its a horrible game to be a part of |
| 11:14 | and very distracting.. | |
| 11:14 | caroline | Its not been that bad. |
| 11:14 | its really our core mission for SoaS. | |
| 11:14 | not a distraction. | |
| 11:14 | satellit | is there a usb wireless adapter that works in soas? |
| 11:15 | caroline | Its not the most fun but with persistance we've made a lot of progress. |
| 11:15 | satellit | rather than fix all chipsets? |
| 11:15 | tomeu | satellit: I would think so |
| 11:15 | caroline | satellit, that requires people to buy things so that is not always a great solution. |
| 11:16 | satellit | but it might be a solution interim |
| 11:16 | caroline | We've done great in the last few months, I think if we just keep at it one problem at a time we'll make a lot of progress. |
| 11:16 | tomeu | but I guess soas itself doesn't need to attack the hw problem? |
| 11:16 | caroline | I thnk we should have a process for dealing with and tracking what works, doesn't, why and work arounds and who is working on upstream fixes. |
| 11:17 | tomeu | could be something done between the deployer and fedora |
| 11:17 | caroline | no |
| 11:17 | dsd_ | i agree with tomeu |
| 11:17 | caroline | I disagree. |
| 11:17 | tomeu | once something gets solved, any of them prods the soas guy |
| 11:17 | caroline: I don't see how soas people can attack that problem themselves | |
| 11:17 | caroline | the people doing the deployments don't have the skillsets, we need to track and work the issues. |
| 11:17 | tomeu | caroline: they are not in the field nor can influence packages such as the kernel |
| 11:17 | caroline | tomeu we've done it already |
| 11:18 | tomeu | caroline: but does it need to be done inside the soas project? |
| 11:18 | caroline | yes, it is the SoaS project |
| 11:18 | its the core of it. Its making Sugar work with what you have. | |
| 11:18 | tomeu | ? |
| 11:19 | caroline: who is "you' there? | |
| 11:19 | caroline | You is the teacher and the school. |
| 11:19 | and the parent. | |
| 11:20 | tomeu | I don't know why is good that the soas people get involved at that level, but it's not my call |
| 11:20 | dsd_ | i have to go..i'm admittedly a bit uninformed on the whole situation but my closing personal concern i have is that soas scope is growing and growing and taking a few too many resources away from sugar |
| 11:20 | caroline | we've done incredible work in this so far. We will never get to 100% but getting more and more hardware to work is the core of what we are doing. |
| 11:21 | tomeu | I'm worried in general about resource management, yeah |
| 11:21 | sdziallas | hrms. |
| 11:21 | tomeu | quite a bit of the open source processes are meant to optimize resources |
| 11:21 | caroline | nod |
| 11:21 | sdziallas | thinks. |
| 11:22 | caroline | We will get done what we get done when we get it done. |
| 11:22 | tomeu | if we are going to reinvent our own organizational processes from scratch, it will take us a good while to reach a good place |
| 11:22 | caroline | but to me the goal is to let people, teachers, kids, use Sugar with the resourcs they have. and getting it to work on lots of chipset is core to that mission. |
| 11:22 | and we are doing GREAT so far. So I don't see why we should give up. | |
| 11:23 | tomeu | who said give up? |
| 11:23 | erikos | caroline: the thing is - who do you think is Soas? |
| 11:23 | caroline | to me sayiing someone else shousl do it is givign up. |
| 11:24 | tomeu | caroline: it could be the same people, I was referring to defining the scope of each project |
| 11:24 | caroline | erikos, good question! I dont have a good answer. |
| 11:24 | tomeu | caroline: we may be discussing in circles because we attach a different meaning to the same words |
| 11:24 | caroline | yes |
| 11:24 | I think that is probably true. | |
| 11:25 | erikos | caroline: yeah, I guess we each have different visions |
| 11:25 | tomeu | if sugarlabs is composed by people that deploy sugar and we agree that deployments have a place in sugarlabs, then SLs should cater for the needs of those people |
| 11:25 | but that's SLs, which is quite broad | |
| 11:25 | now we were talking about soas | |
| 11:26 | caroline | To me the SoaS team enables people around the world to use Sugar on their existing hardware and in a situation where kids do not have 1-1 computesr they can take home so they carry their data on an external storage device. |
| 11:26 | tomeu | should be part of soas directly supporting people in the field, or should be a layer in between? |
| 11:26 | caroline | I think between now and next Nov we should not add another layer but that someday we should. |
| 11:27 | tomeu | caroline: so the soas project should give direct support to teachers, parents, kids, etc? |
| 11:28 | caroline | Walter and I are. we are in the school with teachers and students |
| 11:28 | and will be in the fall. | |
| 11:28 | So to me that is just the current reality of it. | |
| 11:28 | tomeu | caroline: and your project in that school is part of the soas project? |
| 11:28 | or is a different project? | |
| 11:29 | caroline | good question. I think yes, I think its the pilot for Sugar on a Stick. |
| 11:29 | erikos | caroline: but as you said, every school and hardware is different, so everybody going into a school will have different issues |
| 11:29 | tomeu | caroline: and you think this is going to scale? or in the future deployments will be different projects? |
| 11:30 | erikos | caroline: I am sure I have different one than you |
| 11:30 | caroline | no I dont; think its going to scale. Thats why its just a pilot. clearly we can't scale it with Walter and I and erikos at the schools. |
| 11:31 | but I also think I can't do the pilot without the team's support and that we can't scale till we've done some succesful pilots. | |
| 11:31 | erikos | caroline: for me - soas is a live version of Sugar and Fedora |
| 11:31 | caroline: sugar feedback is going to the Sugar upstream project | |
| 11:31 | caroline | for me its jsut Fedora today |
| 11:31 | erikos | caroline: hardware feedback to Fedora |
| 11:32 | tomeu | caroline: but it being a different project doesn't mean that you don't get support. just means that there are some processes in place to make support more efficient |
| 11:32 | erikos | caroline: how so - just Fedora? |
| 11:32 | caroline | someday it might also be Ubuntu or Chrome or Suse |
| 11:32 | to me SoaS is about the mission. Letting students use Sugar on different machines in different locations. | |
| 11:33 | tomeu | caroline: all the people working on soas share that mission? |
| 11:33 | sdziallas | ah! very basic discussion here... let me put it this way, as I already did in this one e-mail: |
| 11:33 | caroline | tomeu, yes I think we are goign round and round because I don't think its time to formalize those processses yet. |
| 11:33 | to me you don't formalize soemthing till you've got it working once. | |
| 11:34 | tomeu | caroline: ok, it's good we are talking about this, I think we are getting somewhere |
| 11:34 | caroline | but I think we both absoltely agree we will need formal proceedures. To me I image them comign into being over time and being there by middle of next sprng. |
| 11:34 | sdziallas | Sugar on a Stick is not Fedora to me. It's more than Fedora. It's its own distribution, *based on* Fedora. That's it. |
| 11:34 | caroline | I am worried if we tryto put them in place now we'll get it worng. |
| 11:35 | because we need tomake this work for schools and teachers. | |
| 11:35 | to me the WE here the SoaS team is the people who will try to create glue between teachers and the open source world. | |
| 11:36 | that is the crucial process we need tofigure out. and honestly I don't know how to do it yet. i think that is why I'm resisting making the process. | |
| 11:36 | cause the process tht will work for me, Walter and Erikos will not scale down to teachers. We need to learn what we have to do to make something that will. | |
| 11:36 | that is the hard work ahead of us. | |
| 11:36 | does that make sense? | |
| 11:38 | erikos | sdziallas: yup |
| 11:38 | tomeu | caroline: I think I see your POV, but I think it's a bit far away from the open source way of working. that's not to say that it won't work, just that it won't magically fit in the way open source people work unless a lot of things are made explicit |
| 11:38 | let me explain how I see things as a FOSS developer: | |
| 11:39 | - I spend my time on solving some issues that I think are needed by other people | |
| 11:39 | - as I won't be bringing the fruit of my work to those users, I will have to make possible for the people who will actually do that to take my work and convert it in something deployable | |
| 11:40 | mchua | reads back in discussion, interested |
| 11:40 | tomeu | - as I won't be doing everything from scratch, I'm going to be asking other projects to do stuff for me (or accept my changes and improvements) |
| 11:40 | sdziallas | waves to mchua, still thinking... |
| 11:41 | tomeu | caroline: now, that doesn't make much sense for companies or people not in the foss world |
| 11:41 | the straight line for them is to take the products from other projects they need, bang on them until it works, then make something they can deploy | |
| 11:42 | that's what Sun did with GNOME, what OLPC did with fedora, and most other companies that were new at working with FOSS | |
| 11:42 | caroline | tomeu, maybe we can agree that we have a hard problem we are wroking on. Empowering teachers and schools without a lot of company or IT department support to use Sugar effectively with students who don't have 1 laptop each. |
| 11:42 | tomeu | what makes it hard to explain this is that in order to understand the benefits of playing the upstream/downstream game, you need to understand why the straight line might not be the shortest |
| 11:42 | and you need experience for that | |
| 11:43 | caroline: who are we here? | |
| 11:43 | caroline | No one ever said anything about the greater OLPC mission was easy, just important. To me this is the core problem that the SoaS team, technical and notechnical is working on. |
| 11:43 | tomeu, Sugar Labs and its Sugar on a Stick team. | |
| 11:44 | tomeu | hmm, I think we didn't met each other at the middle |
| 11:46 | mchua | might be missing some context for this discussion... is the question about whether SoaS is downstream from SL, or within it? (on both technical/organizational levels, and how the development vs the deployment works?) |
| 11:46 | caroline | good question |
| 11:47 | and are we getting too far off of sdz's agenda which was to put in proposals for Nov? | |
| 11:47 | tomeu | mchua: one aspect of the discussion is if soas is intended to be consumed as-is (so the project supports all its users directly) or if there's someone in the middle |
| 11:47 | sdziallas: back to you | |
| 11:47 | sdziallas | caroline: it was slightly shifting but I think this discussion here is really important. |
| 11:48 | caroline | I guess I'd like to create a proposal to figure out a system for tracking chipsets and for making steady progress on increasing our coverage. |
| 11:48 | tomeu | yeah, defining the project goals and scope might be a prerequisite of deciding the roadmap |
| 11:48 | caroline | sdz, its an awesome discussion but I have to go really soon. |
| 11:48 | sdziallas | caroline: maybe this can help: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]_a_Stick/Hardware |
| 11:48 | tomeu | caroline: do you realize that's a goal of the fedora project? |
| 11:48 | caroline | yes |
| 11:49 | and I guess I'm just saying the SoaS team has a role and should allocate resources to interfacing with Fedora and testers. | |
| 11:49 | I think Fedora really cares about us btw. | |
| 11:49 | mchua | thanks, tomeu - that helps a lot. sdziallas, maybe this is something to take to the mailing list, if caroline has to go soon... |
| 11:49 | caroline | I think they have been awesome and really want to help us. |
| 11:50 | sdziallas | mchua: yeah, makes sense... but I'm fearing that we're running in circles, too. |
| 11:50 | caroline | I actaully really think we've made tremendous progress talking in real time. |
| 11:50 | tomeu | caroline: one important aspect of FOSS is that projects care more about the users that know how to interface with them |
| 11:50 | mchua | One of the things that's hard to figure out is *how* Fedora can help Sugar, speaking from my just-one-person-from-the-Fedora-side-of-things voice. |
| 11:51 | caroline | tomeu right so part of the SoaS goal is figuring out how to be the interface between the teachers and things like Fedora. |
| 11:51 | tomeu | caroline: I agree soas should interface directly with fedora |
| 11:51 | caroline | as you point out its vitally important and its a hard problem. |
| 11:51 | mchua | One of the things I've been trying to do, while working on edu stuff for RH, is trying to find concrete ways the two projects can help each other. Why Sugar/SoaS succeeding == Fedora++, how we can help that happen. |
| 11:51 | tomeu | caroline: but I'm not sure it's just soas which should do that |
| 11:51 | mchua | So suggestions would be uber-welcome. |
| 11:51 | caroline | tomeu I'm not sure either. |
| 11:52 | erikos | mchua: I think it is just about being reponsive to bugs - hardware support |
| 11:52 | mchua: that is mostly what is needed, imho | |
| 11:52 | sdziallas | mchua: help me convincing jlaska to get us a test day ;) (just kidding, but we should try to identify intersections)... |
| 11:52 | caroline | As I said I don't know the right answers, so to me the task for this fall is to try thngs and try to find the right answer. So I'm resistant to putting policies into stone. |
| 11:52 | mchua | erikos: so, SoaS as the source of lots of good hardware feedback? |
| 11:52 | caroline | cause the way its always worked for Open Source is not going to directly translate down to teachers. |
| 11:53 | tomeu | caroline: ok, as a bystander, I think you and sdziallas should agree on what soas is. I'm not sure you do from earlier comments |
| 11:53 | mchua | sdziallas: +1. i believe I'll be seeing jlaska in about 2 weeks btw, if it helps |
| 11:53 | erikos | mchua: yes, and I do think they have to do anything special compared to their other users |
| 11:53 | tomeu | caroline: +1 |
| 11:53 | sdziallas | mchua: see how many people already already submitted their hardware configuration using SoaS: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/S[…]_a_Stick/Hardware |
| 11:53 | mchua: we should talk about that (maybe after the meeting or some other day...) :) | |
| 11:54 | mchua | sdziallas: whoa. AWESOME |
| 11:54 | caroline | and Firstboot Inclusion - this extends that right? |
| 11:54 | erikos | has to leave |
| 11:54 | sdziallas | caroline: exactly. each user will be directly given the possibility to submit the hardware profile, I he wants to. |
| 11:54 | waves to erikos | |
| 11:54 | erikos | sdziallas: ttyl |
| 11:55 | sdziallas | yup! |
| 11:55 | caroline | ok so we need a proposal that says we need a process, with both human and automated compontents for Sugar hardware coverage. |
| 11:55 | sdziallas | +1 |
| 11:55 | mchua | has to go also |
| 11:56 | caroline | how shoudl we phrase that? |
| 11:56 | sdziallas | waves to mchua... ttyl! :) |
| 11:56 | caroline | thanks mel |
| 11:57 | sdziallas | maybe something like finding better ways of gathering feedback, both automated and manual, in terms of issues and hardware support? |
| 11:57 | tomeu | sugar hardware coverage? or soas? |
| 11:57 | mchua | will be back on irc later, would love to continue this convo |
| 11:57 | sdziallas | cool! |
| 11:57 | caroline | sdz, yes |
| 11:57 | sdziallas | tomeu: this would be soas. this point is about establishing a connection point to Fedora. |
| 11:58 | caroline | tomeu, you tell me, how much difference is there? |
| 11:58 | tomeu | caroline: sugar can be said to support some hardware such as input methods, but should be pretty much independent |
| 11:58 | caroline | Also who are the people who are champions of Sugar not on a Stick and not on a XO? |
| 11:59 | garycmartin | tomeu: +1 |
| 11:59 | tomeu | caroline: well, working on a UI written in python involves a set of skills very different from debugging a hw issue |
| 11:59 | caroline | tomeu I don't understand what you said |
| 11:59 | right, different people work these issues. | |
| 12:00 | tomeu | caroline: sugar is a set of components that, architecturally speaking, are quite far away from the hardware |
| 12:00 | caroline: it can be said that sugar needs to improve its support for touchscreens | |
| 12:00 | caroline: but not that sugar doesn't support XYZ wifi card | |
| 12:01 | caroline | right those are both different bugs |
| 12:01 | tomeu | soas is an operating system, sugar is just a dozen of software modules that run on top of the rest of the OS |
| 12:01 | caroline | and have differnet priorities |
| 12:01 | tomeu | and different people should work on them, etc |
| 12:01 | caroline | sure |
| 12:02 | and they both need working on, and they'll both get worked on as we get volunteers who care and have the skills to work them. | |
| 12:02 | our goal in these meetings is to get all these things clearly on to road maps and separated so that volunteers can come work on them. | |
| 12:02 | right? | |
| 12:04 | tomeu | well, as I said, I'm not sure how we can make a roadmap for a project if we don't agree first on its scope |
| 12:05 | but though I will work on soas stuff at some points, I don't consider myself a driving force behind it | |
| 12:05 | caroline | maybe, altough agreeing on all the things that need to be done then sorthing them is not a bad way to work on things. |
| 12:05 | What do you see your role as Tomeu? | |
| 12:05 | sdziallas | already knows what tomeu's going to say :) |
| 12:06 | tomeu | caroline: in soas? I'm an upstream developer that realizes that there's not enough people to work on soas |
| 12:06 | caroline: so I will have to make sure it works there after the sugar code freeze | |
| 12:07 | so I will be working in soas, but with a limited role | |
| 12:07 | caroline | but what we have time to do between now in Novemer is not this meeting, thats the meeting where we go over proposals. |
| 12:07 | clearly not everything will get done for V2. | |
| 12:07 | that doesn't mean we don't make proposals | |
| 12:07 | sdziallas | which is why I wanted this meeting |
| 12:07 | I don't want proposals to come up late in the dev cycle | |
| 12:07 | I want them NOW :) | |
| 12:08 | caroline | also we add people all the time. If we have proposals that we don't think will get in and we get a volunteer then we can still get it worked on. If we don't have a propsal its a lot harder for a new person to contribute. |
| 12:09 | Also this project of keeping track of chipsets and investigating what and why for each one. Its a very different skillset then python programming. | |
| 12:09 | so hopefully its a very different resource that is doing it. | |
| 12:10 | I have had 3 new volunteers last week. I have two new ones coming this week. Knowing what we need done and what skills it needs is really important to me right now. | |
| 12:11 | sdziallas | nods... |
| 12:13 | caroline | sdz, can you ty to create an action for a propsoal, we can modify it on the wiki. |
| 12:13 | I have to pack the car and drive to LFG | |
| 12:13 | tomue, great disucssion! Thank you so much. | |
| 12:13 | sdziallas | caroline: yup, I will. I just noticed that the other action items didn't make it in our meeting log. I'll end them and end the meeting then. |
| 12:13 | caroline | thanks!! biab |
| 12:14 | tomeu | cheers! |
| 12:14 | sdziallas | thanks everybody for the meeting :) |
| 12:14 | garycmartin | sdziallas: a little short notice, will read the back log :-) |
| 12:14 | sdziallas | #ACTION turn Combine Sugar Live CD, Boothelper, & USB Creator on one image into a proposal |
| 12:14 | #ACTION Make a proposal to have all activities updatable via A.sl.org | |
| 12:15 | #ACTION make files accessible outside of Sugar Proposal | |
| 12:15 | #ACTION - SoaS works with a free VM client - Proposal | |
| 12:15 | #ACTION proposal for joint release for VMs / USB keys / XOs. | |
| 12:15 | #ACTION create a VMPlayer CD that allows boot by CD then fast user switching - Create proposal | |
| 12:15 | garycmartin: yeah, sorry... I know :/ but still good to have you here :) | |
| 12:17 | garycmartin | only made it here in time by booting the SoaS.iso, readonly, in a VM :-) |
| 12:17 | sdziallas | garycmartin: that demonstrates that our software actually works :) |
| 12:18 | garycmartin | sdziallas: :-) |
| 12:19 | sdziallas | garycmartin, tomeu: anything else we should discuss (seems like we're the only remaining)? |
| 12:20 | tomeu | sdziallas: nope ;) |
| 12:20 | sdziallas | okey dokey... I'll end this then, we can continue if needed anyway ;) |
| 12:20 | satellit | sdziallas: the boot CD with VMPlayer or virtualbox could also sense usb insertion and run VM on insertion? |
| 12:21 | sdziallas | counting... (always wanted to do this) |
| 12:21 | satellit: I'm not sure... it could be possible. | |
| 12:21 | garycmartin | sdziallas: that first action point above looks real nice to me. I have major dificulties getting a working stick, actually since Strawberry I've not been able to do it any more :-( but that mey be my USB sticks failing, hard to tell. |
| 12:22 | sdziallas | garycmartin: the one to have it run in a VM, you mean? |
| 12:22 | satellit | sdzillas: openSUSE distributes a .raw file for usb. could we? |
| 12:22 | sdziallas | thinks we also need priorities (as discussed) for the different proposals. |
| 12:22 | satellit: what's the advantage of having a .raw file around? (I honestly don't know) | |
| 12:23 | satellit | with dd command you make a bootable USB Soas |
| 12:23 | garycmartin | sdziallas: No problems with VMs, just no luck making up a working stick (from Fedora) or converting the .iso to a .img and .crc for direct install on an XO. |
| 12:23 | sdziallas | hm! I'm not sure. I'd actually like to have one *working* method instead of three half-working ones. |
| 12:24 | garycmartin: I heard that we might get something from Martin (Dengler) soooooonish :) | |
| 12:24 | garycmartin | sdziallas: me too :-) |
| 12:24 | sdziallas | satellit: lfaraone was working on something, if I recall correctly... |
| 12:25 | satellit: we should investigate the different types of distribution, I'd say, yes. | |
| 12:25 | satellit | k |
| 12:26 | sdziallas | ends meeting, thanks everybody! |
| 12:26 | #endmeeting |