Time |
Nick |
Message |
12:13 |
tomeu |
hmm, should have suggested to the triagers to identify bugs we should really fix for 0.84.1 |
12:14 |
erikos |
tomeu: i can ask this as homework |
12:14 |
|
FGrose: i will post a link on the blog |
12:14 |
FGrose |
erikos: Great |
12:15 |
erikos |
FGrose: we really need to find out who the Kids testers are ;p |
12:16 |
|
ok - todays subect is 0.86 |
12:16 |
FGrose |
erikos: Email them through the wiki talk page, special link in sidebar |
12:16 |
erikos |
FGrose: ok |
12:16 |
|
we need to define the feedback process |
12:16 |
walterbender |
erikos: 0.84 is great, in case you didn't realize |
12:17 |
erikos |
and rough out the schedule |
12:17 |
|
walterbender: what do you mean? ;p |
12:17 |
|
walterbender: i look unhappy? |
12:18 |
walterbender |
erikos: you should be very proud of your child :) |
12:18 |
ishk |
can anyone tell me how can i get the information about sugar lab ideas on gsof 2009,the sugar site direct me to this IRC |
12:18 |
|
:( |
12:19 |
erikos |
ishk: :) |
12:19 |
ishk |
:( :( :( |
12:19 |
tomeu |
one minute of proud silence for 0.84! |
12:19 |
erikos |
homunq: can you guide our friend? |
12:19 |
cjb |
maybe there should be a #sugar-gsoc or something? |
12:20 |
ishk |
:D i think i came to a wrong place,,,am i? |
12:20 |
erikos |
there is always one stepping into the silence ;D |
12:20 |
tomeu |
cjb: yeah, I'm thinking that as well |
12:20 |
erikos |
ishk: #sugar is better |
12:20 |
tomeu |
ishk: here is for scheduled meetings |
12:21 |
erikos |
walterbender: ok - i will celebrate a bit - actually we should all do |
12:21 |
|
tomeu: what was about the party? |
12:21 |
sdziallas |
a party? when? where? who? :) |
12:22 |
walterbender |
sounds like linuxtag is the party date? |
12:22 |
sdziallas |
:):):) |
12:22 |
tomeu |
ok, deal |
12:23 |
erikos |
walterbender: ok, so you are coming as well - i read between the lines ;p |
12:23 |
walterbender |
I'll try. |
12:23 |
tomeu |
there's also wien, bolzano and paris |
12:23 |
|
and of course, the center of europe and thus the optimal place, prague |
12:24 |
sdziallas |
heh. |
12:24 |
|
finds a small hint from tomeu here |
12:24 |
erikos |
well it is good to celebrate several times |
12:24 |
tomeu |
german guys should just hop on the train and come spend a weekend here |
12:25 |
|
I already celebrated it myself a couple of weeks ago |
12:25 |
erikos |
tomeu: yeah, i should come visit soon |
12:26 |
tomeu |
if mel was here, she wouldn't be happy with our meeting discipline |
12:26 |
sdziallas |
we're having a meeting? heh. ;) |
12:27 |
erikos |
oups |
12:27 |
walterbender |
sdziallas: everyibe followed ishk to #sugar |
12:27 |
erikos |
ok - everyone makes a funny face now |
12:27 |
|
*blink* |
12:27 |
walterbender |
#TOPIC 0.86 |
12:27 |
erikos |
now concentration |
12:29 |
walterbender |
I am in part responsible, because I asked erikos for a rough idea of the schedule |
12:29 |
erikos |
walterbender: ok - schedule is a good start |
12:29 |
|
we already said that we should try to follow the Fedora one |
12:30 |
|
to get our release into it |
12:30 |
|
as Soas is an important product |
12:30 |
walterbender |
which means we can back out from those dates? when is F12? |
12:30 |
erikos |
yup - let me look it up |
12:31 |
tomeu |
maybe we should reflect a bit about how well has worked the 0.84 schedule |
12:31 |
walterbender |
tomeu: good idea |
12:32 |
tomeu |
IMO, the worst problem was that people didn't had a good way to test sugar |
12:32 |
|
we are still trying to get soas-* to work |
12:32 |
|
but hopefully that will have improved for 0.86 |
12:32 |
walterbender |
tomeu: made worse by the fact that it is difficult to test 0.84 on the XO |
12:32 |
sdziallas |
walterbender: this will become easier, soonish |
12:32 |
silbe |
there were some last-minute breakages that frightened me - the keyboard problem e.g. (sorry erikos) |
12:32 |
walterbender |
tomeu: SoaS will greatly broaden our ability to test |
12:32 |
tomeu |
maybe we should make a goal to run 0.85 on top of F11-based soas |
12:33 |
erikos |
so F12 - looks like it is meant to be October 31 |
12:33 |
walterbender |
tomeu: but also greatly broaden the environment in which we need to test |
12:33 |
|
erikos: what lead time do they need? |
12:33 |
tomeu |
that's true |
12:34 |
sdziallas |
tomeu, walterbender: as I threw the soas & cjb's fedora-xo kickstart files together, they're now based on the same stuff, so everybody get's the cool latest changes. and that way, sugar (0.84) will run better under F11 on the XO. |
12:34 |
walterbender |
tomeu: but I think we can agree that we do our baseline testing on a Fedora-based SoaS??? That would be a sigiifcant decision. |
12:34 |
erikos |
walterbender: that is from a draft: http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/ |
12:34 |
silbe |
more automated testing (both unit tests and sugarbot) would help in the long run, though it cannot replace manual testing fully |
12:34 |
erikos |
silbe: you mean for the mute key etc? |
12:35 |
silbe |
erikos: yup, the one where my keyboard stopped working at all |
12:35 |
walterbender |
erikos: feature submission is end of May |
12:35 |
|
how do people on other distros feel about using Fedora as the baseline? |
12:35 |
erikos |
walterbender: it starts yup |
12:36 |
|
silbe: you mean - it was not good to make that change at that date |
12:36 |
walterbender |
erikos: oh. we have until end of July... |
12:36 |
erikos |
silbe: and in the future we should be more cautious? |
12:36 |
tomeu |
walterbender: for 0.86, I would say so |
12:36 |
|
walterbender: we can revisit for 0.88, of course |
12:36 |
sdziallas |
well, feature freeze is not final freeze, right? |
12:36 |
silbe |
erikos: i don't know what the "right" thing would be. it seemed like a nice, little change but turned out to have rather grave effects. |
12:37 |
tomeu |
walterbender: saw the email I sent about gnome 2.26, there's a link about how they do their live media images, I guess for testing purposes |
12:37 |
|
? |
12:37 |
erikos |
silbe: we could have reverted it i guess |
12:37 |
walterbender |
sdziallas: I am just thinking that we need to know what features before we can freeze them |
12:37 |
erikos |
silbe: on the other hand - we fixed another bug which was only revealed that way |
12:38 |
|
silbe: in general - i think that we will get better in the future and do not need to make so many last minute changes |
12:38 |
silbe |
erikos: yes, but i don't like the idea it could have made it into the release |
12:38 |
erikos |
silbe: sure |
12:38 |
sdziallas |
walterbender: yeah, definitely agreed. but Fedora's feature freeze just means (afaik) that you need to have a current feature page, which has been approved by FESCo... |
12:38 |
erikos |
silbe: point taken - will try to be more strict with myself and us in the future |
12:39 |
|
silbe: to avoid such things |
12:39 |
walterbender |
sdziallas: OK. But regardless, we should plan to reach consensus on 0.86 features well before then |
12:39 |
silbe |
erikos: didn't mean to imply you were imcautious (sp?) |
12:39 |
sdziallas |
walterbender: agreed... |
12:40 |
erikos |
silbe: nah :) |
12:40 |
walterbender |
so we at least can agree we need to know <<July what are plans are for 0.86 |
12:41 |
|
that already narrows things down. |
12:41 |
erikos |
sdziallas: and the process is maybe the right thing for us as well |
12:42 |
|
sdziallas: that the features need to be aproved |
12:42 |
sdziallas |
erikos: yeah, I mean Fedora wouldn't be using the process if it would be bad one... |
12:43 |
erikos |
or do people think - this would slow down development - and people feel not couraged? |
12:43 |
silbe |
sdziallas: they how way more people, though |
12:43 |
erikos |
silbe: maybe we need to work towards this |
12:43 |
silbe |
i've thought about more strict rules as well, but additional load on the developers would hurt a lot |
12:44 |
erikos |
silbe: we do not need to make it super strict |
12:44 |
sdziallas |
silbe: that's also true... ;) |
12:44 |
walterbender |
erikos: I don't know that we need more strict rules, but we can tell people, here is the schedule, dirven by external events. |
12:44 |
|
if you can meet it, great. If not, your work will probably end up in 0.88 |
12:45 |
|
and having a set of agreed upon features doesn't preclude people from working on others as well |
12:45 |
|
but it will enable people to rally around some concrete goals? |
12:46 |
tomeu |
yeah, it's important that people understand that there are reason why we have rules |
12:46 |
|
and that we have processes in place to make exceptions |
12:47 |
silbe |
IMO the goals for 0.86 should be a) get Sugar to a point where it's interesting for a lot of people to contribute, esp. hackers (=> spread developer load) and b) start with automated testing (e.g. regression tests) to notice new issues faster (increase quality, reduce tester load) |
12:47 |
|
purely subjective of course :) |
12:47 |
walterbender |
silbe: good goals. we need to get everyone's goals on the table soon |
12:47 |
|
but it is hard to argue with those two goals :) |
12:47 |
tomeu |
silbe: actually, walter started a discussion about high level goals last week, but I failed to follow up |
12:48 |
|
maybe we should do that |
12:48 |
erikos |
walterbender: tomeu +1 |
12:48 |
walterbender |
I would like to have a framework in place for the diascussion |
12:48 |
silbe |
walterbender: that's a good idea. maybe even do releases more often so not getting a feature into a release doesn't hurt as much. would increase load on the release team, though. |
12:49 |
tomeu |
walterbender: maybe for the high level goals we don't need more than a plain old email thread? |
12:49 |
walterbender |
silbe: I am not proposing we churn out more than 1 per 6 months |
12:49 |
sdziallas_ |
runs, will be back later; sorry folks :( |
12:49 |
tomeu |
sdziallas_: cheers! |
12:50 |
|
at the end, we'll see people pushing for some goals but having no one who will actually work on them |
12:50 |
|
so we don't actually need to reach consensus on the mailing list |
12:50 |
silbe |
walterbender: personally, i'd go for 3 months (and perhaps even fork new development branches before the release), but that's probably not realistic for now |
12:50 |
erikos |
phone - sorry :( |
12:50 |
walterbender |
silbe: not until the secret cloning project is finished |
12:50 |
tomeu |
apart from cloning, there's the issue of distributors |
12:51 |
walterbender |
quick, while Simon's back is turned, grab a few skin cells |
12:51 |
tomeu |
right now, only distros that package sugar are distributing it |
12:51 |
walterbender |
tomeu: I agree. The bits need to get out into the world to be useful |
12:51 |
|
and to get feedback |
12:51 |
tomeu |
and they seem to be sync'ing themselves in two releases per yeat |
12:51 |
walterbender |
the intermediate (odd numbered) releases help |
12:51 |
silbe |
walterbender: secret cloning? |
12:52 |
|
oh, think i got it :) |
12:52 |
tomeu |
if in the future other people are getting sugar to kids at other times of the year, we can revisit making more frequent releases |
12:52 |
walterbender |
silbe: did you ever see the Woodie Allen movie, Sleeper :) |
12:52 |
silbe |
walterbender: not yet. will put it on the list :) |
12:54 |
walterbender |
so maybe a more aggressive call for feature suggestions and then a workshop or some event where we can drive to some consensus? |
12:54 |
silbe |
ok. Does SoaS pull the packages from Fedora? |
12:54 |
tomeu |
after having a bit of high level goals discussion in iaep? ;) |
12:54 |
|
silbe: yup |
12:55 |
silbe |
ok, so 6 months for now, fine. :) |
12:56 |
tomeu |
would be nice to have someone to take care of the feature pages in the wiki, but perhaps our wiki team is a bit overloaded? |
12:57 |
erikos |
walterbender: haha back! |
12:58 |
silbe |
it would be great to get rainbow in, BTW </shameless-plug> |
12:58 |
walterbender |
#ACTION walter will reconcile new features with trac |
12:58 |
tomeu |
silbe: I think we only need someone to work on integration |
12:58 |
silbe |
"reconcile new features"? |
12:59 |
erikos |
so, as we do development releases in the 6 months - we can get feedback earlier |
12:59 |
silbe |
ok, will try once i get the buildmaster stuff working as expected :) |
12:59 |
walterbender |
runs to the phone |
13:00 |
erikos |
and we have Soas where we can get feedback |
13:00 |
tomeu |
silbe: we talked earlier today about having all features as enhancements in trac, and the ones that are a bit complex, also a wiki page |
13:00 |
silbe |
ah, ok |
13:01 |
|
so what exactly is walter going to do? add new feature requests in trac or trying to find them? |
13:01 |
tomeu |
silbe: making sure they are properly linked and all features in the wiki have a ticket |
13:01 |
walterbender |
silbe both |
13:02 |
|
but that list is only scratching the surface |
13:02 |
silbe |
ok |
13:02 |
walterbender |
if we put out a call, we need to include a schedule and a process, which is what I asked erokos this morning |
13:03 |
|
needs to spend more time with Typing Turtle |
13:03 |
tomeu |
what would a process look like? |
13:04 |
erikos |
walterbender: i would go for a schedule like the one iposted earlier |
13:04 |
walterbender |
erikos: +1 |
13:04 |
|
nothing complicated |
13:04 |
|
but we just need to agree upon it |
13:05 |
erikos |
walterbender: yup - nearly two months for feature submission it says there |
13:05 |
|
walterbender: maybe i should just daft one up and we can discuss it |
13:06 |
walterbender |
erikos: where is "there"? |
13:06 |
FGrose |
There are new 'Roadmap' links on the TeamHeaders that can be used |
13:06 |
erikos |
http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/ |
13:06 |
silbe |
erikos: erikos: got a pointer? cannot find any mail from you with a schedule in it |
13:07 |
erikos |
silbe: nah - there is not one yet ;p |
13:07 |
|
silbe: http://poelstra.fedorapeople.org/schedules/f-12/ |
13:07 |
silbe |
oh |
13:07 |
erikos |
silbe: i meant similar to that one |
13:07 |
silbe |
ok :) |
13:07 |
erikos |
would until next week work? |
13:07 |
|
if i present a schedule we can talk about next week? |
13:08 |
walterbender |
erikos: that is fine. I guess I was looking for the Sugar schedule, not the Fedora schedule :) |
13:10 |
erikos |
walterbender: yup - next week i will have the draft |
13:11 |
|
walterbender: or we can meet on monday or tuesday for a special meeting |
13:11 |
tomeu |
an extraordinary meeting? |
13:11 |
walterbender |
erikos: I cannot do Monday or Tuesday morning :( |
13:12 |
|
erikos: why not just wait for the usual Thursday time? |
13:12 |
tomeu |
yeah, and discuss in the mailing list if you send it earlier |
13:12 |
silbe |
don't think it's a good idea to do high level decisions on an extraordinary meeting |
13:13 |
tomeu |
I would actually take all decisions async on the mailing list, in fact |
13:13 |
erikos |
walterbender: works for me - i just thought people were probably waiting for it |
13:13 |
silbe |
tomeu: even better |
13:13 |
erikos |
ok - ml is it then |
13:13 |
walterbender |
erikos: I think as long as people know it is coming, that is OK |
13:14 |
erikos |
walterbender: great |
13:14 |
|
walterbender: ok - anything else here? |
13:14 |
walterbender |
erikos: wanna post an ACTION? |
13:15 |
erikos |
walterbender: don't like to post actions for myself ;) |
13:15 |
|
ACTION: Schedule of Sucrose 0.86 - send draft to ml for further discussion (erikos) |
13:15 |
|
#ACTION: Schedule of Sucrose 0.86 - send draft to ml for further discussion (erikos) |
13:17 |
FGrose |
erikos: Let's talk about wiki page to collect goals and ideas for roadmap. There are new 'Roadmap' links for each team/project on wiki |
13:17 |
walterbender |
erikos: I cannot manage to attend a meeting without getting stuck with an Action... bad habit |
13:17 |
erikos |
FGrose: ok |
13:18 |
silbe |
walterbender: you need to delegate more :-P |
13:18 |
erikos |
FGrose: you mean i should post the roadmap to the wiki - and wait for feedback? |
13:19 |
FGrose |
erikos: No ML is best, but then some semi static collection of ideas for easy referal |
13:20 |
tomeu |
if we cloned walterbender, he could delegate on himself |
13:21 |
erikos |
FGrose: i guess we can directly do that on the roadmap page |
13:21 |
walterbender |
silbe: says silbe, who has nothing on his plate :) |
13:21 |
erikos |
FGrose: http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/D[…]ease/Roadmap/0.86 |
13:22 |
|
FGrose: oh - i see the links - nice |
13:22 |
silbe |
walterbender: did well enough :-P - but actually i promised to work on rainbow once the buildmaster stuff is done |
13:22 |
FGrose |
erikos: right, but we can structure it better for feedback ideas maybe |
13:23 |
erikos |
FGrose: suggestions welcome - a concrete idea already? |
13:23 |
FGrose |
Let me think for a couple of hours |
13:24 |
silbe |
is the modules page still up to date - e.g. marco as sugar maintainer? |
13:24 |
walterbender |
silbe: we need to protect you and Aleksey and Sebastian from getting saddled with minutia. |
13:25 |
erikos |
FGrose: ok - awesome |
13:25 |
FGrose |
erikos: Mailing list thread is best for wide participation, but point people to wiki for landed ideas |
13:26 |
silbe |
walterbender: agreed in general - but what do you mean exactly? |
13:26 |
tomeu |
silbe: marco passed on maintainance, we should update that |
13:26 |
walterbender |
silbe: nothing in particular... just a general observation |
13:27 |
silbe |
walterbender: ok, full ack then :) |
13:27 |
walterbender |
silbe: not that it wouldn't be great to get Rainbow into 0.86!! |
13:28 |
silbe |
walterbender: it's my personal release goal :) |
13:28 |
tomeu |
it's quite doable, I think |
13:28 |
silbe |
AFAICT the datastore part will be the biggest obstacle |
13:29 |
|
but i really need to dive into it to be sure |
13:29 |
tomeu |
silbe: yeah, I had some ideas about doing it with dbus, but I think the new rainbow dumped dbus completely? |
13:30 |
silbe |
tomeu: i think so, yes. the olpcfs2 could be a nice solution if it were already implemented :) |
13:30 |
tomeu |
basically, the DS needs to ask rainbow if the activity is limited to reading entries with a particular activity_id or to a particular mime_type list |
13:31 |
|
silbe: but the fuse daemon would have the same problem, right? |
13:32 |
silbe |
ah, right, rainbow will need to interact with it, not just make it work... |
13:32 |
tomeu |
silbe: you can also implement olpcfs2 for 0.86 :p |
13:33 |
silbe |
even if i had the time to do it, i don't think it would be release ready for 0.86. |
13:34 |
erikos |
tomeu: i read the thing now |
13:34 |
tomeu |
sure, just joking |
13:35 |
|
any other topics for the meeting? |
13:35 |
|
can we close it? |
13:36 |
|
I think I'm quite clean now of non-coding duties, so maybe tomorrow we can make it a bug-fixing day in preparation of 0.84.1? |
13:37 |
silbe |
maybe i'll do it as a dissertation if it hasn't been done by then ;) |
13:39 |
erikos |
#endmeeting |