| Time |
Nick |
Message |
| 12:00 |
wadeb|w |
Hey all. Welcome to ActivityTeam meeting #2. Anyone who wasn't here last time, feel free to introduce yourself. |
| 12:01 |
alsroot |
so we are starting, hi all |
| 12:01 |
FGrose |
Hi, Listening in. |
| 12:01 |
valhalla |
hi everybody, i'm new |
| 12:01 |
garycmartin |
Hi folks! |
| 12:02 |
wadeb|w |
Ok, got lots of progress to quickly go over since the last meeting. Feel free to add in anything I forget to mention. |
| 12:03 |
|
First of all, thanks alsroot for fixing & packaging like every damn activity for SoaS. |
| 12:03 |
|
Also, thanks dfarning, tomeu, mick, et al for getting addons.sl.o up and running. |
| 12:04 |
garycmartin |
( alsroot: thanks for the moon patch! ) |
| 12:04 |
alsroot |
garycmartin: np :) |
| 12:05 |
wadeb|w |
We've also made progress on at least half of our high profile tasks from http://sugarlabs.org/go/ActivityTeam/TODO. |
| 12:05 |
dfarning |
wadeb|w; you are welcome. keep the bug reports coming.... and with jasons help wit should look and work pretty weel soon:) |
| 12:05 |
wadeb|w |
Speak collab is done (thanks alsroot!) |
| 12:05 |
|
ImageQuiz is in progress by tonya - need to get an update from him |
| 12:06 |
alsroot |
wadeb|w: "from him" or her ? |
| 12:06 |
wadeb|w |
TamTam modifications (and activity modification in general) has been quite well documented - http://sugarlabs.org/go/Modify[…]#Modifying_TamTam |
| 12:06 |
|
alsroot: tony anderson I think :) |
| 12:07 |
walterbender |
are the csound issues reolved? |
| 12:07 |
wadeb|w |
walterbender: in speak collab or in tamtam? |
| 12:07 |
walterbender |
in general, I guess |
| 12:07 |
|
I wonder if I should try moving Turtle Art to csound |
| 12:07 |
alsroot |
walterbender: in TamTam (at least it works - in somehow) |
| 12:10 |
wadeb|w |
Anyone have any additional progress to report from the last month? |
| 12:10 |
|
I've been hacking on Typnig Turtle mostly. Nepal plans to ship it in their deployment and I've been dealing with the insane complexity of their character set. |
| 12:11 |
cjl |
wakes up, waves |
| 12:11 |
alsroot |
wadeb|w: in act TT looks great |
| 12:11 |
|
s/act/fact |
| 12:11 |
wadeb|w |
I also snuck in a Log.activity update - ported from gnomevfs -> gio and added a draggable splitter. |
| 12:11 |
walterbender |
amharic makes devanigari look simple :) |
| 12:11 |
wadeb|w |
walterbender: yikes :) |
| 12:11 |
walterbender |
silbe helped clean up some bugs in TurtleArt, although there are lots more remaining... |
| 12:12 |
wadeb|w |
it's good, I could have started with a simple Spanish deployment, but this helps me work out the issues beforehand. |
| 12:12 |
walterbender |
I have a request: a simple guide to gitorious |
| 12:12 |
wadeb|w |
noted.. we've had a lot of developers complain about having a hard time w/it. |
| 12:12 |
cjl |
walterbender: more challenging still when we don't get much in the way of L10n, but my understanding is that they do most education in English in Ethiopia |
| 12:12 |
wadeb|w |
#ACTION write a simple guide to gitorious |
| 12:13 |
|
#ACTION I'd also like to propose some additional activity guides: |
| 12:13 |
walterbender |
wadeb|w:lots of people--including me--have gotten confused about things link merging... |
| 12:13 |
wadeb|w |
#ACTION Localization (how to use Python's features, how to set up translation infrastructure like pootle, how to localize things like images, etc) |
| 12:13 |
walterbender |
I've been keeping notes on my User page, but it is pretty scatter-brained |
| 12:14 |
wadeb|w |
#ACTION Resolution independence. Things like using sugar.graphics.style.GRID_CELL_SIZE and not hardcoding font sizes, as well as using Box sizers appropriately. |
| 12:14 |
walterbender |
alsroot fixed a bug in genpot which will help a lot with Localization |
| 12:14 |
wadeb|w |
walterbender: yeah, notes how to accept and perform merges would be good too. |
| 12:14 |
|
and yeah, I ran into that bug as well, that's great to have fixed,. |
| 12:14 |
cjl |
wadeb|w: Yes, on L10n, it would be very helpful if a clearer flow from new lang-en activity to fully checked int oPootle. |
| 12:15 |
wadeb|w |
#ACTION Posting. How to release newly developed activities. Our importing frmo d.l.o guide is pretty complete, but we could use something for new activities coming from outside. |
| 12:15 |
|
Anyone else got any guides they they think would benefit a lot of authors? |
| 12:17 |
walterbender |
we should come up with some documentation guidelines |
| 12:17 |
|
and perhaps instructions on how to create a FLOSS manual about your activity |
| 12:17 |
wadeb|w |
Yes, good idea. |
| 12:18 |
alsroot |
in case of docs -- I've mentioned (wile packaging var. activities) there is lack on internal docs |
| 12:18 |
|
I mean gui docs |
| 12:18 |
wadeb|w |
What do people think about that? |
| 12:18 |
|
How should we be including documentation in our activities? |
| 12:19 |
walterbender |
We have the almanac, but it is a bit disorganized and incomplete |
| 12:19 |
pgf |
ideally the activity could display the doc via Browse. ;-) |
| 12:19 |
cafl |
We should have help as has been proposed |
| 12:19 |
garycmartin |
wadeb|w: I still see the need to doc as a fail in design, but I know I'm out numbered :-) |
| 12:19 |
walterbender |
how do we currently feel about .xol bundles? |
| 12:19 |
cjl |
wadeb|w: I had sketched out some notes on a classigication rubric for the activity surevey http://sugarlabs.org/go/User:Cjl/Sandbox Might be some ideas for you on actvity develeopment guidelines. |
| 12:20 |
walterbender |
because packaging for the browser can be complicated |
| 12:20 |
|
if you have images, etc. |
| 12:20 |
|
I did some rude embedded image hacks in TurtleArt as an end-run |
| 12:20 |
wadeb|w |
Ok, pretty good survey. garycmartin - heh, I agree in principal but some activities are just too shall we say "feature rich" :) |
| 12:21 |
|
Finance has some cheezy help built into each screen. the MaMaMedia apps have some lesson plans built in too. |
| 12:21 |
cjl |
Calculate has some function help strings |
| 12:21 |
pgf |
walterbender: my comment was tongue-in-cheek, because it's impossible for an activity to launch browse at the moment, no matter how complex or simple the content. |
| 12:21 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: .xol bundles, until we have a lightweight browse like widget, .xol won't go away. It might also become a place for docs auto installed by activities. |
| 12:21 |
wadeb|w |
but it would be nice to have some unified help system |
| 12:21 |
pgf |
wadeb|w: +1 |
| 12:21 |
wadeb|w |
cjl: I like it! http://sugarlabs.org/go/User:Cjl/Sandbox |
| 12:21 |
walterbender |
and a help system that the end user can add to |
| 12:22 |
wadeb|w |
I guess one question is - should help be in the activity, or part of the system? |
| 12:22 |
|
ie, should there be a help button in the standard toolbar? |
| 12:22 |
|
and should it launch browse or just drop down a journal like widget? |
| 12:22 |
cjl |
wadeb|w: Thanks, I was trying to capture some things that seemed to get spotty attention by activity devels. Please take and modify that as needed. |
| 12:23 |
garycmartin |
wadeb|w: Most kids won't read docs, so we are just writing for the adults, right? Unless you want to make pictorials (comics) or video of features... |
| 12:23 |
walterbender |
cjl: I wish you could use a C (collaboration) and V (view source) and maybe a J (journal) or R (reflection) |
| 12:23 |
|
Maybe CoVeR IMAGE |
| 12:23 |
wadeb|w |
pgf: I think you can create a journal entry with a file:// url, and then show the journal programatically |
| 12:23 |
|
hehe |
| 12:23 |
cjl |
walterbender: I ran out of cute acronym energy :-) |
| 12:23 |
wadeb|w |
cjl, walterbender yeah, we should finish that up and post it, it's great. |
| 12:23 |
pgf |
wadeb|w: i'd like a pointer to a HOWTO for that, if so. |
| 12:24 |
wadeb|w |
pgf: someone sent me a tiny cmdline script once, can't remember who :) might violate rainbow tho |
| 12:24 |
pgf |
wadeb|w: aye, there's the rub. |
| 12:25 |
cjl |
wadeb|w: walterbender Please do take that forward out of the Sandbox, I'm more interested in contribution than attribution |
| 12:25 |
wadeb|w |
cjl: gotcha |
| 12:26 |
|
ok, I posted these guides to the ATeam TODO list. |
| 12:26 |
|
feel free to get them started, anyone. |
| 12:27 |
walterbender |
cjl: Ill write up something for CVR |
| 12:27 |
wadeb|w |
(they are under Community Tasks) |
| 12:27 |
garycmartin |
cjl: re calculate, I was planning to add the strings as secondary menu items. Think it would work much better as a generl light weight help (hint) solution for many. |
| 12:27 |
wadeb|w |
what namespace should we use? ActivityTeam/LocalizationGuide? ActivityTeam/Guides/Localization? |
| 12:27 |
alsroot |
+1 for ActivityTeam/Guides/ |
| 12:27 |
wadeb|w |
garycmartin: and yeah, I think adults are the primary audience for help |
| 12:28 |
cjl |
ActivityTeam/Guides |
| 12:28 |
wadeb|w |
garycmartin: kids tend to figure things out by playing more often |
| 12:28 |
cjl |
That can branch and get busahier as needed later |
| 12:28 |
cafl |
But if kids ask adults, adults read manuals. |
| 12:29 |
wadeb|w |
right.. it's important to have the help available in there somewhere |
| 12:29 |
cjl |
wadeb|w: even a link to a stable wiki page is a start |
| 12:30 |
|
realizes stable and wiki page represents an oxymoron. |
| 12:30 |
wadeb|w |
cjl: yeah, I'm wondering what to do about that - so far we have identified the SL.o Activities/XXXX pages as "for devs" to avoid the w.l.o mess |
| 12:30 |
|
cjl: also it would be best to ship any docs we produce with the activities in case the users don't have internet, right? |
| 12:30 |
cjl |
yes |
| 12:30 |
wadeb|w |
cjl: and there has to be some mechanism for translators to translate the documentation |
| 12:31 |
garycmartin |
wadeb|w: The addons site is only for weak level of documentation, not full guide material. |
| 12:31 |
wadeb|w |
garycmartin: yeah, for sure. ...so I'm thinking it should go in .xo bundle? |
| 12:31 |
cjl |
I'm jsut suggesting that nay publically accessible page is a start, not an end- goal |
| 12:31 |
wadeb|w |
maybe a Foo.activity/doc/en_US/index.html like system? |
| 12:31 |
|
where index.html can be translated using Pootle somehow? |
| 12:31 |
|
maybe HTML is the wrong format, maybe it should be markdown or something that normal people can write. |
| 12:32 |
garycmartin |
wadeb|w: Well get bad activity bloat I'm sure if docs go in.... |
| 12:32 |
wadeb|w |
cjl: yeah, I agree that we need to start somewhere |
| 12:32 |
cjl |
Well ideall FLOSS manulas for something bigger |
| 12:33 |
garycmartin |
For those that need it, go fo a separate 'book' download, ideally an activity based one so it's a 1st class component. |
| 12:34 |
cafl |
There was a cool, almost finished javascript activity that made it easy to create comic strips. It made it easy to put bubbles of speech over images. Kids like comics and would read help in that form I think. If it was easier to create, maybe a good kind of help (and the bubbles text would be translatable.) |
| 12:34 |
cjl |
Ther eshould be something of a gradient, a wiki page during creation, a FLOSS manual for a relatively stablew widely sued activity, |
| 12:34 |
garycmartin |
(back to a lightweight html widget for a template viewer activity) |
| 12:34 |
cjl |
thinks it should have good spell checking too :-) |
| 12:35 |
wadeb|w |
so do people generally prefer that documentation be separate from the activity itself? that potentially simplifies things. |
| 12:35 |
|
(in comic book, html, FLOSS manual, etc form) |
| 12:35 |
alsroot |
wadeb|w: guess we could use some links to docs in activity's code |
| 12:36 |
cafl |
I think people like to see the help with the thing they want help with. not flipping back and forth. |
| 12:36 |
cjl |
wadeb|w: If in FLOSS manual, process for refreshing HelpActivity to get it local could be worked out. |
| 12:36 |
garycmartin |
cafl: I like the comic idea :-) Artists seem hard to find though. |
| 12:36 |
cafl |
It is possible to use screen shots, templates with kids talking, for that perhaps. |
| 12:37 |
wadeb|w |
yeah, I'm not seeing a clear consensus. I guess it's that there seem to be multiple "levels" of help - go and read about the activity vs what does this button do |
| 12:37 |
|
is there another need in between "what do I do on this screen?" and "activity X for dummies"? |
| 12:37 |
garycmartin |
wadeb|w: I'm happy with lightweight help in activity, like your finance inline help works well, or by adding to the 2ndary menus. Big help/tutorials should be separate, lots of translation issues and effort there. |
| 12:38 |
cafl |
I like little "show me" movies as well. Wouldn't need to be very hi res and could use speex sound? |
| 12:38 |
dfarning |
FWIW, I will be with the FLOSS manuals team next. So ping me with suggestions on how we can work together. |
| 12:38 |
wadeb|w |
cafl: yeah, movies would be nice.. someday when we have 100 activities all working great on XO and SoaS we need to spend a weekend and make youtube videos of each one. |
| 12:39 |
sdziallas |
wadeb|w: oh yeah... videos :) |
| 12:39 |
wadeb|w |
garycmartin: ok, here's where I'm at now. We should request a lightweight help feature from the Sugar Toolkit folks, so it can be standardized. Help text must be small enoguh to be contained in the source code as translatable strings, so we're not talking anything crazy extensive here. |
| 12:39 |
garycmartin |
wadeb|w: Yes, good plan. |
| 12:40 |
|
wadeb|w: (youtube vid weekend) |
| 12:40 |
alsroot |
wadeb|w: +1 |
| 12:40 |
wadeb|w |
garycmartin: regarding "book" level help for activities, we need to a) talk with the FLOSS manuals team and b) get the .xol situation sorted out |
| 12:40 |
cjl |
dfarning: If the FLOSS folks have methods/plans for simplified MediaWiki > FLOSS migration, that would help bride the gap in tool usage skills. You could start a chapter on the wiki and someone else could pull it into a FLOSS page. |
| 12:40 |
wadeb|w |
dfarning: so, maybe we can pick a couple activities for the FLOSS folks to try writing quick (1-2 page) guides? |
| 12:41 |
walterbender |
cjl: 1st pass at http://sugarlabs.org/go/User_t[…]ndbox#COVER_IMAGE |
| 12:41 |
wadeb|w |
loser: hey, glad you could make it! we're talking about activity help. |
| 12:41 |
garycmartin |
wadeb|w: I think the inline stuff is alredy doable, no new code needed from core team. Just use the 2ndary palettes, you can get a scentence or so in each (already tried with calulate). Looks nice and is 'right there' |
| 12:41 |
loser |
hey wade. i almost missed it. |
| 12:42 |
wadeb|w |
garycmartin: ok, we should add it to the "guide" then. would it be appropriate for what I'm doing in Finance as well? |
| 12:42 |
dfarning |
cjl, wadeb|w I have added those dicsussions to my tolist |
| 12:42 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: maybe for 0.87 we can let those secondary menus be modified locally and shared |
| 12:43 |
wadeb|w |
walterbender: has anyone considered writing a Translate activity? |
| 12:43 |
|
walterbender: ie something to locally pick up .po files from activities and allow the user to update strings? |
| 12:44 |
cjl |
wadeb|w: That could be done by sugarizing Virtaal |
| 12:44 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: yes, locally edits could be nice; or convice folks to edit source... (perhaps the view source could allow strings to be edited?) |
| 12:44 |
cjl |
http://translate.sourceforge.n[…]iki/virtaal/index |
| 12:44 |
walterbender |
wade|b: cscott had an inline translation widget he'd be experimenting with |
| 12:44 |
cjl |
or poedit, but Virtall has a nice GUI |
| 12:45 |
cafl |
I was intrigued by the email thread on (who knows what) list regarding the grab key. Is there some clever way to use a similar technique to enable a more interactive help? |
| 12:45 |
walterbender |
but I had something a little different in mind, although it could use the same interface. |
| 12:45 |
garycmartin |
wadeb|w: Finance, I'll read through your strings again and have a think. I'd do calculate as a working example and see what folks think. |
| 12:45 |
walterbender |
I'd like the kids to be able to write their own documentation and share it in the neighborhood |
| 12:46 |
wadeb|w |
cafl: what kind of a help UI are you thinking? |
| 12:46 |
|
cafl: like, press this key and whatever the mouse is over describes "what it does"? |
| 12:46 |
cafl |
(or interactive translation)...make a show code key be show translation. Why are we fixated on making the world's children little programmers? maybe they should be little explainers? |
| 12:46 |
wadeb|w |
cafl: heh, good sentiment.. so a key that would bring up the current activity's .po file in an overlay window? |
| 12:47 |
cafl |
Yes wadeb|w I'm thinking of a way to "click" on a text and then translate. Didn't Chris Ball or Scott show a demo of something like that for automatic translation? |
| 12:48 |
|
(In the xo camp or whatever led to all the youtube videos). |
| 12:48 |
bemasc |
cafl: cscott prototyped exactly that |
| 12:48 |
walterbender |
cafl: CScoot demoed it |
| 12:48 |
cafl |
Thanks, I get mixed up on who is who since never see anyone in person. |
| 12:49 |
wadeb|w |
yeah, we should see where that work ended up - I missed the demo so I'm not sure how it was implemented |
| 12:49 |
cafl |
I will attempt to find the video and send a link later. |
| 12:50 |
wadeb|w |
ok, time is running short, let's discuss addons |
| 12:50 |
cjl |
semi-related thread http://lists.laptop.org/piperm[…]tober/020417.html |
| 12:51 |
wadeb|w |
So, has everyone had a chance to try out activities.sugarlabs.org? |
| 12:51 |
|
We still don't have a lot of bundles up there yet - in fact there are more in Honey thanks to alsroot :) |
| 12:52 |
|
Just wondering if people are having trouble posting, or if it's that we haven't gotten enough of the old authors involved. |
| 12:52 |
|
(my own activities are taking time because I'm slow ;)) |
| 12:52 |
|
although I did finally post Finance yesterday |
| 12:52 |
loser |
wadeb|w: sweet |
| 12:52 |
cjl |
wadeb|w: I would make a renewed call to close out OLPC Trac tickets so it is a migration and not a fork. |
| 12:53 |
wadeb|w |
cjl: yeah, I have bugs open on SL for closing those, I will try to get to it soon |
| 12:53 |
garycmartin |
activities.sl.org is still broke right? addons.sl.org is the only way I can get there. |
| 12:53 |
wadeb|w |
garycmartin: yeah, you're right, my bad |
| 12:53 |
alsroot |
wadeb|w: how could we post activities that are unmaintened by original devs but patched in some way and packaged in honey (for example) ? |
| 12:53 |
cjl |
wadeb|w: Not picking on anyone in particular, would just like to see it considered normative behavior |
| 12:53 |
wadeb|w |
garycmartin: we are moving -> activities.sl.o though |
| 12:54 |
cafl |
a.sl.o needs a "reading" or "literacy" or "words" category. |
| 12:54 |
wadeb|w |
alsroot: I guess, we should just take them over |
| 12:54 |
|
alsroot: and invite the original authors to get back involved when they have time |
| 12:55 |
alsroot |
wadeb|w: in that case we should mark activity poster like "not orig. dev" or current-maint |
| 12:55 |
dfarning |
cafl; please file a bug in dev.sugarlabs.org so we dont lose the idea |
| 12:55 |
cafl |
ok |
| 12:56 |
wadeb|w |
cafl: yeah, great idea |
| 12:56 |
|
#ACTION <cafl> a.sl.o needs a "reading" or "literacy" or "words" category. |
| 12:56 |
alsroot |
dfarning: could we mark person who post activity to aslo as "not orig. dev" ? |
| 12:57 |
wadeb|w |
alsroot: yeah, it's a good idea to differentiate |
| 12:57 |
dfarning |
alsroot; me looks |
| 12:57 |
pgf |
wadeb|w: is there a guide to migrating activities? and, more importantly, is it a goal that all activities be migrated? |
| 12:57 |
wadeb|w |
alsroot: it coudl be mentioned in the "support" area of the a.sl.o tag |
| 12:57 |
|
pgf: there is a guide: http://sugarlabs.org/go/Activi[…]migrate_from_OLPC |
| 12:58 |
garycmartin |
FWIW: There's a design team meeting tomorrow that will likely also be hittin on some a.sl.o topics. |
| 12:58 |
wadeb|w |
pgf: and yeah, we are politely asking people to consider migrating - along with making sure the activities run on SoaS etc |
| 12:58 |
|
pgf: migration status is maintained at ActivityTeam/ActivityStatus |
| 12:59 |
FGrose |
Design team moved to Sunday 1 March |
| 12:59 |
garycmartin |
FGrose: Thanks, must get through the rest of my email... |
| 12:59 |
pgf |
wadeb|w: thanks. i'll see if i can move RoadMap over one of these days. is there special wiki markup for "legacy, not very sugary" activities? |
| 13:00 |
wadeb|w |
pgf: heh, you can add a tag if you want :) |
| 13:00 |
|
pgf: would be great to have RoadMap migrated! |
| 13:00 |
cjl |
Aspartame |
| 13:00 |
pgf |
wadeb|w: okay. "sour" |
| 13:00 |
wadeb|w |
lol |
| 13:01 |
|
Ok all, I'm out - catching a flight in a couple hours and have to go home and get ready. |
| 13:01 |
garycmartin |
wadeb|w: thanks for you time! |
| 13:01 |
wadeb|w |
Thanks for coming and we'll try for a shorter gap between this meeting and the next one. I'm thinking 2 weeks. |
| 13:01 |
dfarning |
alsroot; that information might best be located in the developer comments portion of the description |
| 13:01 |
cjl |
thanks wadeb|w I'm glad I stumbled in. Tghis was a good convo. |
| 13:02 |
wadeb|w |
I've added what tasks I noticed to the ActivityTeam/TODO and ActivityTeam/ProjectIdeas pages but feel free to go check it out and and add anything I missed. |
| 13:02 |
alsroot |
dfarning: should we create aslo user "Activity Team" w/ common email and so to cover all activities w/o orig. devs. ? |
| 13:03 |
wadeb|w |
cjl: definitely a good meeting, thanks for stopping by. |
| 13:03 |
|
Oh, and before I forget... |
| 13:03 |
alsroot |
I mean I dont like my name in "submitted by.." for not my own activity |
| 13:03 |
wadeb|w |
Reminder: Go to http://sugarlabs.org/go/Activi[…]m/GettingInvolved and perform the "Join the Activity Team" steps! |
| 13:03 |
alsroot |
dfarning: ^ |
| 13:03 |
wadeb|w |
heh, sorry alsroot |
| 13:04 |
dfarning |
wadeb|w; I'll start sending out another round of migration email reminders over the next couple weeks |
| 13:04 |
wadeb|w |
And don't forget to "Watch" the ActivityTeam page for news updates. |
| 13:04 |
|
dfarning: thanks, those have been great in getting people reinvolved |
| 13:04 |
dfarning |
I sent some last week an got rather overwhelmed |
| 13:04 |
wadeb|w |
ok, I'm out.. later all! |
| 13:06 |
dfarning |
alsroot; will do. |
| 13:07 |
FGrose |
#endmeeting |
| 13:27 |
cjl |
dfarning: Um, wade left without ending the meeting bot logging I think. |
| 13:28 |
|
aNY IDEA WHAT TO DO ABOUT THAT? |
| 13:28 |
|
switches back to inside voice |
| 08:02 |
erikos |
is there a design meeting now? |
| 08:04 |
tomeu |
design meeting, cool! |
| 08:04 |
garycmartin |
erikos: I hope so, I woke up extra early (for me) ;-) |
| 08:04 |
erikos |
garycmartin: :) |
| 08:06 |
walterbender |
I believe so too. |
| 08:07 |
tomeu |
maybe some timezone confusion? |
| 08:08 |
garycmartin |
erikos: is there a quick terminal command to find out the sugar version, the CP in cjb's F11 build jush has 0.83.x ;-) |
| 08:08 |
walterbender |
I'll send Christian an email ping |
| 08:09 |
erikos |
garycmartin: rpm -q sugar |
| 08:10 |
|
garycmartin: and then the (version -1) |
| 08:10 |
|
garycmartin: i have fixed it in the latest packages i made |
| 08:10 |
|
garycmartin: they contain 0.83.6 or whatever it is at the moment |
| 08:13 |
garycmartin |
erikos: Cool, it's telling me 0.83.8-1 |
| 08:15 |
erikos |
garycmartin: sorry it is actually -2 |
| 08:15 |
garycmartin |
erikos: :-) |
| 08:15 |
erikos |
garycmartin: so you are running 0.83.6 |
| 08:15 |
|
garycmartin: but you can only rely on that calculation now - not in general |
| 08:17 |
garycmartin |
erikos: oh my, I'll wait for you fine CP addition then in future (still rpm -q is a nice hint to check a package version if I need to dig, thanks) :-) |
| 08:18 |
erikos |
garycmartin: yes absolutely it is fine for checking rpm versions |
| 08:18 |
|
garycmartin: see the issue is: |
| 08:18 |
|
garycmartin: the sugar package is 0.83.8 |
| 08:18 |
|
garycmartin: sugar toolkit is 0.83.7 |
| 08:18 |
|
garycmartin: and sugar-artwork 0.83.4 |
| 08:19 |
|
garycmartin: but the version of Sucrose is 0.83.6 |
| 08:19 |
|
garycmartin: (hope this explains it) |
| 08:20 |
garycmartin |
erikos: Thanks, yes. |
| 08:27 |
walterbender |
maybe we can have a bit of a design discussion while we wait for Christian? |
| 08:28 |
|
I think there are three major topics, but Christian may have more |
| 08:28 |
garycmartin |
Sure, I'm just drinking tea and getting used to daylight here. |
| 08:28 |
walterbender |
(1) 0.86 planning |
| 08:28 |
|
(2) Overall branding for the various s.o sites |
| 08:28 |
|
(3) The static landing page |
| 08:29 |
|
Of course, suddenly #3 has had a lot of attention. |
| 08:29 |
sdziallas |
should catch a coffee, though ;) |
| 08:29 |
walterbender |
enjoying his first cup of themorning |
| 08:29 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: Yea the SOM lit up about it this week. |
| 08:30 |
walterbender |
Maybe we can talk about #3 for a few minutes? |
| 08:31 |
|
I felt like there were two different conversations going on... |
| 08:31 |
|
checking the SOM to see if it confirms my feeling |
| 08:32 |
|
(a) there is the question of the design itself and (b) the question of the message we need to convey |
| 08:32 |
|
a & b were often confused in the discussion |
| 08:32 |
|
and I think it was my fault for not playing a better role in moderating the discussion. |
| 08:33 |
|
Personally, I think the design is very strong and the content very weak |
| 08:33 |
|
But I think the weak content caused a lot of confusion about the design |
| 08:33 |
|
and exposed some design flaws as well. |
| 08:34 |
|
Sean made an important point: the audience for the static site is not Sugar users or Sugar developers. |
| 08:35 |
|
The latter will be happy in the wiki; the former at add-ons (for the time beign) |
| 08:35 |
|
But parents and teachers are turned off by the wiki. |
| 08:35 |
|
And they come to the site with a different set of questions. |
| 08:35 |
|
We tried to address their needs... |
| 08:36 |
|
It would be great if we had more pictures, but we got (almost) no response from the field over the course of two months of weekly pleas |
| 08:36 |
|
Not sure why. |
| 08:37 |
|
And we could use hep wordsmithing |
| 08:37 |
garycmartin |
The landing page needs to be very clear and friendly, the current design is strong, but that doesn't make it good or right for SL. |
| 08:37 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: have you seen the weekend sketches? |
| 08:38 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: I don't think so, where should I go look? |
| 08:38 |
walterbender |
looking for URL |
| 08:39 |
|
http://www.christianmarcschmid[…]abs/betasite_alt/ |
| 08:39 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: (just realised, I've never clicked on the 2 images, kids/sharks to the right of the landing page, likely due to all the text distracting/confusing me) |
| 08:40 |
erikos |
garycmartin: yeah - there is quite a bit of text :/ |
| 08:40 |
sdziallas |
walterbender: imo (just my opinion), this page looks even better than the one before did. it seems to be less confusing (at least to me). |
| 08:40 |
walterbender |
I think we need more and better videos, more and better images,... |
| 08:40 |
|
and the could still be tighten up... |
| 08:41 |
|
but I think the design itself is quite solid and useble |
| 08:41 |
|
and it has a quality to it that says, this is a professional effort. |
| 08:41 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: the sketch is looking better. |
| 08:41 |
erikos |
walterbender: oh - that looks better now - with the explanatory text |
| 08:43 |
walterbender |
I think the text is still too wordy and I need to tighten up the interior text too... |
| 08:43 |
|
Any concrete feedback about the design itself? |
| 08:44 |
erikos |
walterbender: almost one million children in over 40 countries. |
| 08:44 |
|
walterbender: this sounds a bit much to me |
| 08:44 |
walterbender |
I think that is accurate |
| 08:44 |
|
> 750000 rounds to almost 1 million |
| 08:45 |
|
and I am sure there is Sugar in 40+ countries... |
| 08:45 |
erikos |
yeah - but 40 countries? |
| 08:45 |
|
maybe with all the pilots, hmmm |
| 08:45 |
walterbender |
I'll double-check on that number, but I am pretty confident in it... |
| 08:45 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: the unexpected scrolling, pulsing document effect has been removed now right? |
| 08:46 |
erikos |
shrugs and get better back to code if we have so many users |
| 08:46 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: I don't know if I ever experienced that effect |
| 08:46 |
|
garycmartin: what browser do you use? |
| 08:46 |
garycmartin |
Safari, but FF as well when testing. |
| 08:47 |
erikos |
walterbender: maybe with the 'free' - we could add open source |
| 08:47 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: It was the effect when clicking ...the...elipsis...texts... |
| 08:47 |
walterbender |
erikos: maybe "it is free software'? |
| 08:48 |
|
garycmartin: I never saw any pulsing... hmm |
| 08:48 |
erikos |
walterbender: yeah - i am not sure yet if we should mention free as in beer |
| 08:48 |
|
walterbender: i mean it is actually |
| 08:48 |
walterbender |
But I only checked the site with FF and Opera |
| 08:48 |
erikos |
walterbender: and this matter to many people i guess |
| 08:49 |
|
walterbender: the problem is - when you read today 'something is free' in most cases it is not |
| 08:49 |
walterbender |
erikos: then, free and open-source software... |
| 08:49 |
erikos |
walterbender: yeah - having both makes it maybe clearer |
| 08:49 |
walterbender |
erikos: in this case, the software is free in both senses of the word |
| 08:49 |
erikos |
walterbender: and the word 'free' not as strong |
| 08:49 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: is it possible to use an inline effect to play the sugar UI video on the page? |
| 08:49 |
erikos |
walterbender: right |
| 08:50 |
walterbender |
erikos: but most people don't know what free and open-source means... |
| 08:50 |
erikos |
walterbender: yeah, i know - we need another comic for that |
| 08:50 |
walterbender |
which is why we try to explain it on the site... |
| 08:50 |
erikos |
walterbender: (which might actually be a good idea) |
| 08:50 |
walterbender |
erikos: +1 |
| 08:50 |
erikos |
walterbender: awesome :) |
| 08:50 |
walterbender |
erikos: more narratives |
| 08:51 |
tomeu |
need to go cook some food, but the vision of a comic book by several artists explaining the concepts around sugar came to my head the other day after seeing the one in the beta site |
| 08:51 |
|
I think it's an effective way to work on a complex matter |
| 08:51 |
walterbender |
just heard from Christian: he thinks the meeting is at 10am |
| 08:52 |
erikos |
tomeu: absolutely - and it is strong laison - to have word and text together telling a story |
| 08:52 |
walterbender |
tomeu: we need to recruit more artists |
| 08:52 |
tomeu |
I really loved the one we have now, though I could understand other people don't like it so much |
| 08:54 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: 2nd page, black inverted highlights, get in the way of reading. |
| 08:55 |
|
walterbender: (like page has correction fluid fixing mistakes) |
| 08:55 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: I am not sure it is a show-stopper. |
| 08:56 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: same with the 3rd page. This one needs plenty of tightening up layout wise. |
| 08:56 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: it is used infrequently and it is an effective way of drawing attention. |
| 08:57 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: all the //// make it look like some kind of source code comments |
| 08:57 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: to a software engineer, perhaps |
| 08:58 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: The empty, blank white area to the page right, that's going to have thumb image content in? |
| 08:58 |
|
walterbender: (like page1 does) |
| 08:59 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: yes... but we need content--ideally things kids make... |
| 08:59 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: good, that will help lots. |
| 09:00 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: yes. that was part of the original design... but I haven't had much luck getting images from the field |
| 09:01 |
|
garycmartin: maybe in the short term, we should just use images we make ourselves... less authentic though |
| 09:03 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: I'm happy to see the menu is now static on the page (not a floater). The menu content seems a little confusing for navigating (the nesting is the issue) |
| 09:06 |
|
walterbender: The 'about' sub section vs. top level items. I think it's that menu don't work this way. No pop-up menu I've ever seen had a container that's also an item. |
| 09:07 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: interesting point... I wonder why not? |
| 09:09 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: aha so clicking a top level container just defaults to the first item in the container. |
| 09:11 |
|
walterbender: I guess if the menu at least showed breadcrumbs, that would allow you to see where you really were. |
| 09:12 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: good suggestion |
| 09:12 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: So (after selection) it would show "about -> overview", "about -> features", or "contributors -> teams". |
| 09:14 |
|
BTW: it's a little of a fiddle to get to items in the contributor sub menu if you not careful with mousing (the menu auto hides) |
| 09:16 |
|
Menu might just need a short delay timer before hiding, so careless mousing outside the box is less painful. |
| 09:16 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: another good idea |
| 09:20 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: regarding image content, screenshots of Sugar's UI 'doing things' will help even if it's not all kids works just now. Seeing Sugar screenshots will help explain what Sugar is about. |
| 09:21 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: I think we all agree about that |
| 09:22 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: It's a pitty, I could have sent some Paint work my nieces and nephew did, but they just got into the habit of painting out their work to start again (couldn't find the Stop button) |
| 09:26 |
|
walterbender: have you trawled flicker for possible sugar image content? |
| 09:28 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: not exhaustively... |
| 09:28 |
garycmartin |
http://flickr.com/groups/colombiaolpc |
| 09:30 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: the problem is most photos are kids with computers, not kids learning with computers... |
| 09:30 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: true, I could see Maze collaboration going on at least. |
| 09:32 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: I'll take a closer look |
| 09:33 |
tomeu |
walterbender: do you know if there's anything that could be done about the video? |
| 09:34 |
|
it's a bit sad that just because NN didn't liked circles circumscribed inside squares, we fail to project the image that someone will see when launching sugar for the first time |
| 09:36 |
walterbender |
tomeu: Eben produced it... it was a lot of work... |
| 09:37 |
tomeu |
ok, I guess I can ask him later during the meeting |
| 09:40 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: http://www.flickr.com/photos/l[…]greco/2957778110/ |
| 09:40 |
|
walterbender: not sure who was behind that one. |
| 09:41 |
|
walterbender: (there are stills of what look like kids hands drawing the green car in Scratch) |
| 09:44 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: nice video, but Sugar plays a pretty minor role... |
| 09:45 |
garycmartin |
http://flickr.com/photos/rober[…]in/pool-onelaptop another Scratch (not from a kid I think, but could be) |
| 09:50 |
|
walterbender: I see what you mean about not 'kids with computers' there are heaps of those.... |
| 09:52 |
|
walterbender: just saw a realy old shot of abiwrite... ug how did it get so complicate now with all the tabs :-( |
| 09:53 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: alas, that is the way of all software :( |
| 09:53 |
|
garycmartin: I am as guilty as the rest: turtleart is bloated now too :( |
| 09:55 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: bloat (feature) are fine, the trick is making the set pf main ones visible, keeping the rest for advanced diggers. |
| 09:55 |
|
(... the set of main ones...) |
| 09:56 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: yeah. I just pushed a new version of TA where I reorganized the palettes to try to accomplish exactly that... |
| 09:56 |
garycmartin |
thinks we don't hide some of this stuff in sub palettes enough |
| 09:57 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: I think that a lot has to do with how useful the default toolbar is... |
| 09:57 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: :-) |
| 09:57 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: often you need not leave the default toolbar |
| 09:59 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: Rescuing much of the space from the 'share with' will help significantly. |
| 09:59 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: yes, but many activities don't default to the Activity toolbar |
| 10:00 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: (smaller share icon with palette) |
| 10:01 |
|
walterbender: you mean like TA's on canvas 'palettes' and things like Scratch? |
| 10:02 |
eben |
Hello everyone. |
| 10:02 |
garycmartin |
eben: Hi |
| 10:03 |
walterbender |
garycmartin: I mean that by default, TA starts on the Project toolbar, where mostly you stay... |
| 10:04 |
|
garycmartin: Browse starts on the Browse toolbar... |
| 10:04 |
tomeu |
eben: hi! |
| 10:04 |
|
and hi, FGrose |
| 10:04 |
walterbender |
eben: good morning |
| 10:04 |
FGrose |
Hi |
| 10:04 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: understood. |
| 10:04 |
walterbender |
leaving in 10 minutes to pick my daughter up at the airport :) :( |
| 10:04 |
eben |
So, I'm a little confused. EST is UTC-5, right? |
| 10:05 |
walterbender |
eben: yes... we thought the meeting started at 8am EST |
| 10:05 |
eben |
But Christian sent mail saying that the design meeting was at 8am then.... |
| 10:05 |
tomeu |
garycmartin: what do you think about the new toolbar proposal from eben? |
| 10:05 |
walterbender |
eben: we've been hanging out, talking. |
| 10:05 |
eben |
I think he meant it to be 10, as that was the time he last discussed with me. |
| 10:05 |
tomeu |
eben: we have solved all the design issues in your absence :p |
| 10:05 |
eben |
And he also informed me a little bit ago that he'd be about 10 minutes late. |
| 10:05 |
walterbender |
eben: yes. I confirmed that with him this morning. |
| 10:06 |
eben |
tomeu: fantastic! |
| 10:06 |
tomeu |
that means killing X and using ncurses |
| 10:06 |
eben |
I'll just go make brunch then. :-P |
| 10:06 |
walterbender |
eben: we had mostly been talking about the website... saving the 0.86 discussion for the group. |
| 10:06 |
eben |
walterbender: OK. |
| 10:06 |
garycmartin |
tomeu: I like it, lot's of atrwork challenges, but it's better that utility than we have now. ... But needs the Stop button all the time at top ;-) |
| 10:08 |
tomeu |
garycmartin: one way to subvert eben's decisions is to make a mistake and let a "bug" slip into the implementation |
| 10:08 |
garycmartin |
tomeu: ncurses, cool a decent UI at last ;-b |
| 10:08 |
eben |
tomeu: :-P |
| 10:08 |
tomeu |
garycmartin: if he really cares, he'll fix it himself, but that doesn't happen 100% of the cases :p |
| 10:09 |
garycmartin |
tomeu: I like the way you think :-) |
| 10:09 |
tomeu |
sneaky, yeah |
| 10:12 |
eben |
So, hopefully Christian will be here shortly and we can discuss some designs. We both wanted to get re-aquainted with the state of things, and work out a preliminary roadmap for the next release. |
| 10:12 |
tomeu |
ok |
| 10:13 |
walterbender |
eben: I think the 0.84 changes are great!!! a huge boost to usability |
| 10:14 |
|
especially the resume functionality !! |
| 10:14 |
eben |
walterbender: Excellent. I only have cursory knowledge of them. :) |
| 10:14 |
|
walterbender: I'm glad people are finding that a good change. I'm still a little worried that people won't find how to start new activities, though. How do you find it to be? |
| 10:14 |
walterbender |
eben: they eliminate about 5 steps and eliminate most of the Journal spam... |
| 10:15 |
|
the Journal is much more useful now. |
| 10:15 |
eben |
walterbender: awesome |
| 10:15 |
garycmartin |
walterbender: I just have cjb's latest F11 build on my XO, so I've just caught up with the Sugar changes over the last ~3 weeks. Looking great. |
| 10:16 |
cms |
good morning--sorry i'm late |
| 10:16 |
garycmartin |
I love that the palettes now show the 'Start' (New in next cycle) item as a white outline activity icon. |
| 10:16 |
tomeu |
walterbender: we didn't got to label the palette item "Start new" instead of "Start" because of the string freeze, but if you think it's very important, we can ask unmadindu if he thinks we can get a string freeze |
| 10:17 |
|
ooops, that was for eben |
| 10:17 |
|
hi cms! |
| 10:17 |
cms |
hi tomeu |
| 10:17 |
|
what are we discussing? |
| 10:17 |
eben |
tomeu: Oh, do we have menu sections!? |
| 10:18 |
|
(labels for them, that is) |
| 10:18 |
garycmartin |
cms: hi |
| 10:18 |
tomeu |
eben: do we? |
| 10:18 |
cms |
hi gary |
| 10:18 |
tomeu |
cms: starting new activity instances from the palette in the home view |
| 10:19 |
eben |
tomeu: I don't know. I'm asking, since that's where the "resume recent" and "start new" were supposed to be. |
| 10:19 |
cms |
tomeu: ah, i saw most of that was already implemented, correct? |
| 10:20 |
tomeu |
eben, cms: we don't have labelled sections in palettes yet :/ |
| 10:20 |
|
so it's not 100% as the design says |
| 10:20 |
eben |
cms: UTC 15:00 = EST 10:00 ;) |
| 10:20 |
|
tomeu: Oh, so where's the labels? We don't have any? |
| 10:20 |
cms |
heh |
| 10:21 |
|
can we actually back up for a second and talk about the development schedule? |
| 10:21 |
|
is there a date set for the new release? |
| 10:21 |
tomeu |
eben: no section labels, no |
| 10:21 |
|
eben: but we do have separators, at leasr |
| 10:22 |
|
t5 |
| 10:22 |
|
argh |
| 10:22 |
|
cms: http://sugarlabs.org/go/Develo[…]m/Release/Roadmap |
| 10:22 |
eben |
tomeu: sure, but that doesn't make the reason for the separation clear. But OK. :) We need to make those then. |
| 10:22 |
tomeu |
eben: sure, I agree those labels are important |
| 10:23 |
cms |
tomeu: thanks! |
| 10:23 |
eben |
tomeu: I think we're more interested in the 0.86 roadmap. |
| 10:23 |
cms |
eben: yes, that would be helpfu |
| 10:23 |
tomeu |
oooh |
| 10:24 |
|
no roadmap yet |
| 10:24 |
eben |
To get an idea of the timeline we want to plan on coming up. |
| 10:24 |
cms |
since we are days away from 0.84 |
| 10:24 |
tomeu |
but we would like to release again in 6 months, aprox |
| 10:24 |
eben |
OK, well, what's the approx. number of months between releases, usually? |
| 10:24 |
cms |
that's good to know |
| 10:24 |
eben |
6, OK, great. |
| 10:25 |
cms |
eben, should we recap all of the main features we want to address in that timeframe? |
| 10:25 |
tomeu |
nice |
| 10:25 |
cms |
some of these may already have been implemented |
| 10:25 |
eben |
cms: I think we should, yeah. We should also refine those added in 0.84. |
| 10:25 |
tomeu |
what I have started to do regarding 0.86 is try to get contacts that can proxy feedback from places where sugar is being used |
| 10:25 |
eben |
tomeu: excellent/ |
| 10:25 |
tomeu |
I haven't had much success yet, but want to scale up this efforts in th enext days |
| 10:26 |
cms |
tomeu: that's great, that feedback will be invaluable |
| 10:26 |
|
when are kids given the opportunity to give feedback? |
| 10:26 |
tomeu |
cms: they can always enter a ticket or send email ;) |
| 10:26 |
cms |
great |
| 10:27 |
eben |
OK, so should we just list the items we think are important (without any discussion, just so we get a full list) and then go from there? |
| 10:27 |
tomeu |
cms: I guess we need to set up some kind of process so direct contributions get translated, summarized and categorized |
| 10:27 |
cms |
eben: yes, let's do that |
| 10:27 |
eben |
tomeu: yeah, that would be great. |
| 10:27 |
cms |
so, one of the most important features was mesh chat |
| 10:27 |
tomeu |
so teachers and parents would ask kids, and someone would summarize that |
| 10:27 |
|
something like that |
| 10:27 |
cms |
tomeu: yes it makes sense that it be facilitated |
| 10:28 |
eben |
" Make Groups view work properly (more like the neighborhood) |
| 10:28 |
|
" Add list (or list-like) views to all zoom levels, for scalability & keyboard navigability |
| 10:29 |
|
" Sweet new toolbars |
| 10:30 |
|
" something controversial: remove ring view/favorites; use grid and/or freeform view |
| 10:31 |
tomeu |
* labelled palette sections |
| 10:32 |
cms |
let's figure out which of these features we can address, and if we can't do all of them, we probably need to prioritize... |
| 10:32 |
eben |
I'm sure there are many smaller ones, but I think these are the biggest on my mind. |
| 10:32 |
cms |
most important in my opinion are mesh chat, groups view, home view |
| 10:32 |
eben |
cms: You think we have a pretty comprehensive list of the big ones here? |
| 10:32 |
garycmartin |
- Jouranal grid view? |
| 10:32 |
cms |
eben: yes, that sums it up i believe |
| 10:33 |
eben |
garycmartin: Right....the "new Journal" is another really big change. |
| 10:33 |
cms |
garycmartin: good call |
| 10:33 |
tomeu |
what about the action/object separation in the journal? |
| 10:33 |
eben |
I might actually recommend pushing that off one more release so we can get the rest of the UI (zoom levels) working perfectly first. |
| 10:33 |
|
(Not that I don't *really* want to make that change...) |
| 10:33 |
cms |
tomeu: the new journal is an important area to focus on, but i agree with eben that we should try to resolve the other areas first |
| 10:34 |
eben |
We might talk about some pieces of the Journal that could be improved though... |
| 10:34 |
tomeu |
what means "remove ring view/favorites; use grid and/or freeform view"? |
| 10:34 |
cms |
the journal works well enough in its current state for another release, but the other areas are more pressing |
| 10:34 |
eben |
We could still use the sort-bar, and mutliple selection, etc. |
| 10:34 |
|
These can happen without a transplant. |
| 10:34 |
tomeu |
I'm ready to work on the weekends on the action/object separation :p |
| 10:35 |
eben |
OK, well, cms, maybe we should start with Home? |
| 10:35 |
cms |
tomeu: the action/object separation is ultimately an important change... |
| 10:35 |
|
eben: ok |
| 10:35 |
eben |
cms: I think that might be the hardest to get consensus around. |
| 10:35 |
|
So, Christian and I have been doing a lot of thinking... |
| 10:36 |
tomeu |
cms: apart from other obvious benefits, if we have an object view in the journal, probably with hierarchy, means we can interface with the filesystem as some people want |
| 10:36 |
cms |
now that we have had some time to experience the new home view, there are some modifications we think would make it more usable |
| 10:36 |
|
the first observation is that people don't use the favorites |
| 10:36 |
eben |
And we've both independently come to the conclusion that the ring doesn't really serve the purpose we had intended |
| 10:36 |
|
Mostly because people either don't know about, or don't make use of favorites to an advantage. |
| 10:37 |
cms |
this comes as a bit of a surprise, but it was an interesting finding |
| 10:37 |
tomeu |
that means that people don't use the ring, or don't use the starring thing? |
| 10:37 |
eben |
And we think that this distinction is likely more confusing in the end than a view which plainly and simply shows all installed activities. |
| 10:37 |
cms |
because people aren't using favorites, they tend to show *everything* in the main, ring view |
| 10:37 |
eben |
tomeu: It means that the ring doesn't really "work", since it's really only designed to hold 10-20 activities. |
| 10:37 |
tomeu |
ok |
| 10:37 |
cms |
in other words, they aren't *de-starring* items to free up the ring |
| 10:37 |
eben |
The ring isn't serving their use cases well. |
| 10:38 |
tomeu |
I see |
| 10:38 |
cms |
has anyone else observed this? |
| 10:38 |
eben |
So, I think cms and I have slightly different interpretations of what this means, but it involves some combination of freeform, grid, and list views. |
| 10:38 |
garycmartin |
cms: not here. Ring view is certainly my fav layout. |
| 10:38 |
tomeu |
I have seen how some sugar on a stick images shipped with lots of activities as favorite, and that made the ring hard to use |
| 10:39 |
|
but if there aren't many activities, the ring works quite well |
| 10:39 |
eben |
With the ultimate goal to be to have 2 views (just like all zoom levels will have!), where both views show *all*activities, and one of those views includes text up front. |
| 10:39 |
tomeu |
text up front? |
| 10:40 |
cms |
garycmartin: yes, to tomeu's point--the ring looks great when there are a ltd number of activities represented |
| 10:40 |
eben |
tomeu: Sure, but a) we don't think that's common, and b) we think that favorites are more trouble than they're worth to people. Added complexity. |
| 10:40 |
cms |
but when you exceed a certain number, it tends to become unmanageable |
| 10:40 |
tomeu |
looks great, and is also easy to click on the wanted activity |
| 10:40 |
eben |
text up front: show text without need for a palette |
| 10:40 |
tomeu |
eben: may be, yeah |
| 10:41 |
garycmartin |
eben: so how will a teacher/parent customise the view - just start deleting stuff?? |
| 10:41 |
cms |
the proposal is to essentially remove the favorites altogether-- |
| 10:41 |
tomeu |
eben, cms: btw, which observations have you made? |
| 10:41 |
cms |
--and have a single view for all activities |
| 10:41 |
eben |
garycmartin: or organizing stuff. ;) |
| 10:42 |
cms |
garycmartin: the model could be much simpler than it currently is |
| 10:42 |
|
meaning a single view for all activities |
| 10:42 |
|
now, maybe we need to think more about what that single view could look like, |
| 10:42 |
garycmartin |
eben: Do what Apple did with their stacks. Nice ring view if under N items, then auto switch to a grid (please not raandom) once exceeded. |
| 10:42 |
cms |
but we think that the freeform view satisfies the need for organizing activities in a single space |
| 10:43 |
eben |
garycmartin: That type of solution honestly doesn't seem valid to me. (even in Apple's case) |
| 10:43 |
tomeu |
my personal, user experience is that freeform views don't work well |
| 10:43 |
cms |
tomeu: i'm not sure-- |
| 10:44 |
tomeu |
maybe I should post a screenshot of my desktop for you to see |
| 10:44 |
eben |
I feel like the stack was just eye-candy, and it didn't scale, so they resorted to a grid view for large quantities. |
| 10:44 |
cms |
i was reading an article recently on interaction design |
| 10:44 |
|
(eben, i think you had bookmarked it) |
| 10:44 |
|
on essentially "unnecessary" affordances |
| 10:44 |
tomeu |
maybe we are facing two very different user groups? maybe we need to support two very different interaction models? |
| 10:45 |
cms |
the freeform view gives you the ability to organize activities spatially, which may not have a clear and immediate purpose (other than making small clusters/groupings), |
| 10:45 |
|
but the sheer ability to move objects around the space and personalize it in that way is satisfying on its own |
| 10:46 |
eben |
cms: Also, we want search in Home to work well....right now its disabled. |
| 10:46 |
tomeu |
I don't know why, but I feel very annoying having to move the icons around in my dekstop |
| 10:46 |
|
so much that I don't do it |
| 10:46 |
eben |
A funny thing about it before was that not all of the activities were in the view... |
| 10:46 |
|
so, do you pull them into the view? or not search on them? |
| 10:46 |
cms |
mean to say, there are interactions that functionally may not be necessary, but are satisfying to people |
| 10:46 |
garycmartin |
cms: so can we at least keep a 'snap to ring' 'snap to spiral' if we want? |
| 10:46 |
cms |
tomeu: *some* people ;) |
| 10:46 |
eben |
Now, everything will be available. |
| 10:46 |
tomeu |
perhaps if we had a good search facility in home, we would be already supporting an interaction mode closer to me |
| 10:47 |
eben |
garycmartin: I think "snap to grid" should be a default, personally. cms disagrees. :) |
| 10:47 |
tomeu |
cms: yeah, I guess that's true |
| 10:47 |
eben |
garycmartin: But I don't see a reason that snap-to-snything couldn't continue to be a hack, as it has been... |
| 10:47 |
cms |
garycmartin: we should think about how to best implement this--there may be a setting in the preferences that controls snap to grid |
| 10:47 |
|
eben: i don't disagree |
| 10:47 |
|
eben: actually, you're right i don't think it should be the default, but i *do* think there should be the option |
| 10:48 |
eben |
I just think Sugar, up front, should be presenting an extremely simple and consistent model for Home. (and all zoom levels) |
| 10:48 |
cms |
eben: i agree. |
| 10:48 |
|
simplicity is really key, here |
| 10:49 |
eben |
And, let me just put two flavors of this out there, briefly. |
| 10:49 |
cms |
and the notion of a personal space that you can customize |
| 10:49 |
eben |
As I mentioned, there are kind of three layout options: freeform, grid, and list. |
| 10:49 |
tomeu |
I agree as well with that goal |
| 10:49 |
eben |
There are a few ways to combine these. |
| 10:49 |
garycmartin |
eben: the ring view is like neighbourhood group sharing, grid or random looses that. |
| 10:49 |
eben |
1) freeform (with snap-to-grid option) and list |
| 10:50 |
|
2) freeform and grid (*instead* of list) |
| 10:50 |
garycmartin |
eben: neighbourhood (graphic) view will have to be limited (gadget/screen space) list view would show all. So that's like home fav's just now... |
| 10:50 |
cms |
garycmartin: that was the initial thought, yes. but freeform also has a close resemblence to neighborhood |
| 10:50 |
eben |
3) freeform or grid, and list |
| 10:50 |
|
garycmartin: Kind of, that's true. |
| 10:51 |
|
Although in Home, there's no implication that the things are just "out of sight"...they're literally sectioned off in a different space. |
| 10:51 |
cms |
garycmartin: but ultimately this is to address function not form |
| 10:51 |
caroline |
hi |
| 10:51 |
cms |
hi caroline |
| 10:51 |
eben |
I think this model works well in the other views, since we're still talking about a single plane and items within it, either in view or not. |
| 10:52 |
|
But yes, I agree with cms....this is primarily a functional decision (everyone knows that both of us strongly preferred the ring, to begin with) |
| 10:52 |
|
But over time, we've come to see that it's not really the best solution in terms of model and interaction. |
| 10:53 |
|
It was a miracle, really, that we sat down over lunch not too long ago and both brought up this same point, independently. |
| 10:53 |
tomeu |
wonder who has actually used sugar 0.82 with kids and could give feedback about it |
| 10:54 |
cms |
eben: of the three options, i find myself leaning towards (1), for simplicity mostly |
| 10:54 |
|
tomeu: that is a good point, actually--some feedback here would help us all make a decision |
| 10:54 |
eben |
Right, I think I put them in order of probability, actually. |
| 10:54 |
tomeu |
caroline: how close are you from giving this kind of feedback? |
| 10:54 |
cms |
tomeu: the thing that cause me to begin questioning the ring was looking at people's screenshots of their home views |
| 10:55 |
caroline |
Sorry, I'm still lost we are talking about how to display activities in the home view? |
| 10:55 |
cms |
the home views i saw were always fully populated with activities, and the ring no longer seemed to work as intended |
| 10:55 |
tomeu |
caroline: yup, and secondarily, the other zoom views |
| 10:55 |
caroline |
I think we are about a month from being able to have a group of kids use Sugar and us look over thier sholder and ask questions. |
| 10:55 |
eben |
I think one of the reasons that the "small number of favorites" failed is explicitly because the model of "activities" is working so well! So it's a win, there. :) |
| 10:55 |
cms |
eben: yes a nice way to view it... ;) |
| 10:56 |
caroline |
*my* imagnation of how I would like it to work is day 1 kid gets ring with a few things picked out by the teacher. |
| 10:56 |
eben |
They are small and self-contained, and there are lots of them, each good at its own little thing. |
| 10:56 |
caroline |
the teacher can via the web add things to all the kids favorites |
| 10:56 |
cms |
eben: essentially, that is what is going on. people don't want to have to choose between their favorite activities, they want them all to be displayed |
| 10:56 |
caroline |
kids talk to each other and learn how to access and add favorites and add addons. |
| 10:56 |
eben |
I even find myself with an overstuffed ring, even though I only have a dozen apps in my OSX Dock |
| 10:56 |
cms |
caroline: you raise an interesting point |
| 10:57 |
|
caroline: but i wonder if that isn't something else altogether |
| 10:57 |
|
i.e., perhaps there is a different home view that teachers can create for their students, a kind of shared collaboration space |
| 10:57 |
caroline |
I think there is a big difference in use case between evaluating Sugar and introdcuting ti to a class. And using it a year into your schooling. |
| 10:58 |
|
cms, we should be doing some of that in Moodle. |
| 10:58 |
tomeu |
yeah, long term feedback would be better, but if we change the UI every release, we won't get it ever :p |
| 10:58 |
cms |
tomeu: agreed... |
| 10:58 |
eben |
I recently shown Sugar to some new individuals myself (not kids, unfortunately; but actually some folks with a little interaction design background) and they found the favorites idea to be a little awkward..didn't understand it without explanation. |
| 10:58 |
caroline |
because remember the idea of "class" is not that stable. There is my reading group, my math group, my afterschool class. |
| 10:59 |
garycmartin |
cms: eben: I'm really not feeling the love here. Give'em a grid, it's easier; and if they don't like it, make it random and leave them to spend 20min trying to drag-n-drop, dodging pop-up menus and accidental launches... Yeuch |
| 10:59 |
caroline |
With "no ceiling" everything will not be discoverable by everyone without explaination. But our tartget is schools, with kids helpign each other. |
| 10:59 |
|
My goal is to reinforce the notion that exploring will get you somehting interesting. |
| 10:59 |
eben |
garycmartin: they shouldn't pop up when dragging. ;) |
| 10:59 |
cms |
caroline: a while ago, eben and i discussed a bulletin board concept that essentially gave you the flexibility to create these shared spaces, in conjunction with groups |
| 10:59 |
caroline |
and that watching other kids will get you something interesting. |
| 10:59 |
|
cms, just saw that email haven't followed the link yet. |
| 11:00 |
eben |
caroline: Sure, but I don't think it's good to let that be an excuse for having a confusing interface. ;) |
| 11:00 |
caroline |
eben agreed |
| 11:00 |
eben |
caroline: I agree, though, but I think there are other, better things we can let them explore and learn. |
| 11:00 |
garycmartin |
Currentyl in Sugar it's so nice not to have to constantly clean up the desktop like I have to else where. |
| 11:00 |
eben |
One of them, hopefully, will be the addition of proper "groups" |
| 11:01 |
caroline |
we have a tension between initial very simple views controled by the teacher, and complex rich student controled views of experienced older kids. |
| 11:01 |
cms |
garycmartin: well, i think it's still a different model from your typical desktop, due to activities always remaining in view. there's no need to clean up, but it's nice to be able to reposition if you like |
| 11:01 |
caroline |
I'm thinking of the 3 year olds I saw not even struggle with windows they just gave up till an adult came over. |
| 11:01 |
|
that is exactly what I don't want. |
| 11:01 |
cms |
garycmartin: it's more like taking the ring, and spreading it out over the entire screen |
| 11:02 |
caroline |
what is the topic on the email with the link to the bulletin boards? |
| 11:02 |
cms |
caroline: actually, this was discussed many months ago |
| 11:02 |
caroline |
you guys need to change subjects more in these long threads! |
| 11:02 |
cms |
i can try to find it--eben, do you know when it was discussed? |
| 11:02 |
eben |
I'm not sure bulletin-boards relate to the current discussion, though. |
| 11:03 |
cms |
they do |
| 11:03 |
eben |
how? |
| 11:03 |
tomeu |
long threads are really evil, yeah |
| 11:03 |
cms |
in terms of what caroline was mentioning--teacher-created collaboration spaces |
| 11:03 |
eben |
Oh oh....sure. Well, definitely, that's exactly what they are. :) |
| 11:03 |
tomeu |
bulletin boards are the solution to all the problems we avoid ;) |
| 11:03 |
cms |
it would be good to have the long-term vision in the back of our minds as we set out to redesign home |
| 11:03 |
eben |
But they're just not a part of Home :) But we should find that for her. |
| 11:04 |
cms |
yes, i'll see if i can dig it up again |
| 11:04 |
caroline |
http://sugarlabs.org/go/Design[…]e/Bulletin_Boards this? |
| 11:04 |
cms |
caroline: i think that will address what you were referring to |
| 11:04 |
eben |
caroline: Kind of...that's a really old mockup/form |
| 11:05 |
caroline |
anyway, we are gettig off topic I think, eben can you restate what you are looking for? |
| 11:05 |
eben |
caroline: A way to think about the current bulletin board idea is that it's an activity (which can be shared), which serves like a shared desktop for activities, objects, notes, etc. |
| 11:05 |
cms |
eben: thanks, that sums it up nicely |
| 11:06 |
eben |
caroline: They can be created around specific topics and serve as a literal "bulletin-board", or more like a project starter kit for a given asignment, etc. |
| 11:06 |
caroline |
cool |
| 11:06 |
eben |
caroline: We should talk more about that sometime, and get your feedback. I think you'll like the thoughts, so far. |
| 11:07 |
caroline |
ok I don;t want to get you off topic |
| 11:07 |
eben |
So, how can we sum up Home, for now? |
| 11:07 |
|
Should we give this a week to settle and discuss again next week? |
| 11:08 |
cms |
yes, let's have the thought settle for a while, then pick it up again and see how it resonates |
| 11:08 |
eben |
Sounds good. |
| 11:08 |
tomeu |
eben: I think we should work hard in involving more people in this discussions |
| 11:08 |
cms |
tomeu: what is the best way to do that? |
| 11:08 |
garycmartin |
tomeu: yes, I noticed no one started the meeting bot to capture all this... |
| 11:08 |
eben |
garycmartin: Oh, that's my fault. |
| 11:09 |
|
is sorry. |
| 11:09 |
tomeu |
cms: that's what I'm trying to discover by appointing contact points in each geog. area where sugar is used |
| 11:09 |
|
cms: will keep working on that, then we'll have some people to ask for feedback |
| 11:09 |
eben |
tomeu: Yeah, good point. Having a few people here with outside insight would be useful; they don't have to be directly interested in the design itself. |
| 11:09 |
tomeu |
0.82 is not widely used, though |
| 11:10 |
eben |
tomeu: also a good point. :) |
| 11:10 |
caroline |
eben you are local to me right? I hope to shortly have a computer lab somewhere and a supply of kids, think about what you'd like to observe. |
| 11:10 |
cms |
should we move on to mesh chat? i think that is one of the most compelling new features |
| 11:10 |
eben |
OK. Well, it's been an hour. Do folks want to wrap up now, then; or take on a few other zoom-level issues? |
| 11:10 |
|
caroline: Yeah...I'm in Providence these days. |
| 11:10 |
tomeu |
eben: as we don't have nobody paying developers, maybe we need to find a way so that developers that contribute their own time feel that the stuff they do is in connection with the needs of actual users |
| 11:11 |
|
I'm happy to move to other issues |
| 11:12 |
cms |
tomeu: yes, before we make any major changes we should make sure that we have some validation |
| 11:12 |
eben |
The remaining issues in the zoom levels are 1) groups is "broken" 2) list views at all levels 3) neighborhood search with gadget 4) chat |
| 11:12 |
tomeu |
btw, not sure I have pasted this link before: http://sugarlabs.org/go/DeploymentTeam/Places |
| 11:12 |
garycmartin |
Happy to move on (still reeling from home change suggestion) |
| 11:12 |
tomeu |
I think caroline had some ideas about the groups view |
| 11:13 |
eben |
Then there are also 5) activity search in Home (related to previous discussion) and 6) addition of groups (finally!) |
| 11:13 |
tomeu |
activity groups or contact groups? |
| 11:14 |
erikos |
sad to have missed the meeting |
| 11:14 |
caroline |
yeah groups is broken |
| 11:14 |
eben |
tomeu: groups, as in collections of people (for the purpose of sharing, etc.) |
| 11:14 |
tomeu |
erikos: we're just starting :p |
| 11:14 |
|
ok |
| 11:14 |
caroline |
what is groups supposed to do? Show friends? Show classmates? |
| 11:14 |
erikos |
tomeu: ohh |
| 11:14 |
eben |
But, we can "fix" the groups view without adding proper groups support. |
| 11:15 |
|
Sure, let me try to clarify the goal. |
| 11:15 |
tomeu |
erikos: we have been talking one hour, but there's lot of ground to cover |
| 11:15 |
eben |
Right now, we have the notion of friends. |
| 11:15 |
erikos |
tomeu: absolutely - there is a lot to do for 0.86 |
| 11:15 |
eben |
We want to add to this the notion of groups....sets of individuals who all agree to join a group...which can then serve as sharing scope. |
| 11:16 |
|
(eg. "share this with my [third grade class] group, or my [chess club] group") |
| 11:16 |
tomeu |
caroline: were you in the presentation that cms and eben did in the sugarcamp? |
| 11:16 |
eben |
The Groups view is supposed to be the space between Home and Neighborhood, where you interact with these people you're closer to....friends...and other group members. |
| 11:17 |
caroline |
ok, so once we have integration between Moodle and eJabber we could start to do some more interesting things. |
| 11:17 |
eben |
The view itself should work almost identically to the neighborhood view...in fact...it's basically the same, except we "zoom in" a little bit to show people we know, instead of everyone. |
| 11:17 |
|
The same rules for showing people clustered around activities, etc. all apply there (should, anyway). |
| 11:18 |
caroline |
So once we are connected to Moodle we now know who is online and shares a group with you. |
| 11:18 |
eben |
caroline: Yes, there has been some discussion around the idea of linking Sugar groups with Moodle. |
| 11:18 |
caroline |
My Moodle classes could include, My class, my grade, my afterschool program, plus I have maybe Sugar frineds who might be in other grades including older and younger sybling. |
| 11:18 |
eben |
I'd like them to be possible without Moodle, but maybe that's too hard a challenge. Not sure yet. |
| 11:19 |
|
caroline: Because I'd really like them to be created ad-hoc. "You four, form a group for the rest of class and work on X" |
| 11:19 |
caroline |
I optomistically see that info being available to Sugar in the next few months. Seems quite possible to trasmit. |
| 11:19 |
|
yeah, that is a harder problem. |
| 11:19 |
eben |
Anyway, at least the notion of what groups should *do* is pretty clear. |
| 11:19 |
caroline |
but if we solve the general problem of group view conveys info about groups from Moodle it becomes Moodles problem. |
| 11:20 |
tomeu |
the biggest problem with groups is how to make sure that in all laptops in a class, the class group contain the same people |
| 11:20 |
eben |
The two big advantages are 1) there will be a filter on the Groups view, so you can look at a particular group at any given moment. |
| 11:20 |
|
and 2) You can also share with a group, instead of just the neighborhood |
| 11:21 |
|
tomeu: Well, the trick is really in namespace collisions.... |
| 11:21 |
|
I think group membership isn't very hard....though like anything, it could take time to propagate the membership changes. |
| 11:21 |
|
I don't think that's a problem though. |
| 11:22 |
tomeu |
well, if a group composition changes without intervention from the user, maybe that user will make an operation on a set of people that aren't what he thinks? |
| 11:22 |
garycmartin |
eben: isn't 'group' better as local thing? I make a 'group' object and add 5 of my friends to it. I can now share to that group. |
| 11:23 |
eben |
The only other point to make about Groups view, in how it differs from Neighborhood, is non-friends/non-group members who are shown there because they're in an activity which does contain a friend/group member are rendered as outlines. |
| 11:23 |
garycmartin |
eben: the group isn't 'publised' for others to auto join (unless I share the 'group' object) |
| 11:24 |
eben |
garycmartin: No, we explicitly want this to be a shared notion. A collaboration. |
| 11:24 |
garycmartin |
eben: it is, you create a group, and then if you want share it. |
| 11:25 |
eben |
garycmartin: Well, you share activities *with* a group |
| 11:25 |
cms |
hi everyone--i'm going to have to leave, but looking forward to continuing this next week |
| 11:25 |
garycmartin |
eben: the 'group' object could come from moodle, someone sharing, or yourself. |
| 11:25 |
eben |
But what does that mean to share it? |
| 11:25 |
tomeu |
cms: ok, we can move some of this discussion to the mailing list |
| 11:25 |
caroline |
I agree at least some of the time the group can be a Moodle Group |
| 11:25 |
garycmartin |
cms: thanks for you time. |
| 11:26 |
eben |
A group is shared, implicitly, with its members. |
| 11:26 |
caroline |
I think you share with a Group, you don't share a Group. |
| 11:26 |
eben |
caroline: right, that's the idea. |
| 11:26 |
cms |
thanks--see you later |
| 11:26 |
eben |
A group isn't an "object"....it's a collection of individuals who agree to share things amongst themselves. |
| 11:26 |
garycmartin |
eben: if a group is shared implicitley, then there's a whole bunch of network chatter and sync going on, invites appearing and other such distractions. |
| 11:27 |
eben |
garycmartin: nah, not really. |
| 11:27 |
|
I mean, it would work something like this... |
| 11:27 |
caroline |
so the conclusion I am coming to is Group view is broken cause the connection to Moodle is fundmentally still broken. |
| 11:27 |
eben |
I cdecide to make a group, and pick the people I want to join. Yes, there is some chatter, as each would get an invite to join the group, and either accept or decline. |
| 11:28 |
tomeu |
caroline: but don't we want groups to work even without moodle? |
| 11:28 |
eben |
But that chatter is limited to the members, and once and done. |
| 11:28 |
caroline |
tomeu, for me. No not really. |
| 11:28 |
eben |
Then, anytime someone in the group shares an activity with the group, each group member gets an invitation to join. |
| 11:28 |
caroline |
but I know that I am more into the server then average person. |
| 11:28 |
eben |
But again, only group members get that, so it's not lots of broadcast. |
| 11:28 |
tomeu |
oh, ok |
| 11:29 |
eben |
tomeu: yes, it's a goal of mine to have this work without a server....but that's a technical discussion to be had. Maybe we should start with server, and then later grow the offline support? |
| 11:30 |
caroline |
I need to go eat sme breakfast back in a bit. |
| 11:30 |
eben |
I need to go, myself, actually. |
| 11:30 |
tomeu |
eben: yeah, that's a possibility |
| 11:31 |
|
eben: ok, how we move forward with 0.86? perhaps you can email a link to the log with some minutes to the ml? |
| 11:31 |
eben |
Perhaps we should come back to this anyway, since adding "groups" is not for next release....but making "Groups view" work naturally, so it's ready for future "groups" support is. |
| 11:31 |
tomeu |
that may get more people interested |
| 11:31 |
eben |
tomeu: You mean copy/paste the log somewhere? |
| 11:33 |
|
Next time I'll remember to use the bot... |
| 11:33 |
garycmartin |
eben: Currently Sugar can share with 1 buddy, or share with all buddy, the bit it's really missing is, share with bob & sue (or N other named buddies). Share with N users seems the feture to fill (if you give N a name it's a nice group). |
| 11:33 |
tomeu |
eben: to the wiki, yeah, like we do in the dev team meeting: http://sugarlabs.org/go/Develo[…]Meetings#Meetings |
| 11:33 |
eben |
garycmartin: right! But the idea here is that all groups are named, and that Bob and Sue would need to agree to be members of that group. |
| 11:34 |
|
tomeu: But you usually link to the logs which are kept by the bot. |
| 11:34 |
|
I guess copy/paste directly into the wiki could also work... |
| 11:34 |
|
A little ugly, probably. |
| 11:34 |
tomeu |
eben: before we had the bot, we pasted to the wiki or linked to a file somewhere else |
| 11:34 |
eben |
ok |
| 11:34 |
tomeu |
a bit ugly, but well |
| 11:35 |
garycmartin |
tomeu: a bit ugly, sounds like the new perposed home view ;-b |
| 11:36 |
eben |
garycmartin: I'll make sure you get a grid! ;) |
| 11:36 |
|
(I don't like freeform much myself...) |
| 11:36 |
garycmartin |
eben: thanks eben, and a ring shaped grid please... |
| 11:37 |
eben |
garycmartin: I'll leave that to the hackers. :) |
| 11:37 |
|
What I'll try to do is make the layout system easily hackable... |
| 11:37 |
garycmartin |
eben: with the identity icon centre. |
| 11:37 |
eben |
garycmartin: yes |
| 11:37 |
|
That will stay as is. |
| 11:38 |
garycmartin |
eben: Curious to see how a snap grid layout will work around a centre icon like that. |
| 11:39 |
tomeu |
wonder who will actually implement all this ;) |
| 11:39 |
eben |
garycmartin: I expect it to work fine, if the XO takes up a multiple of the grid cell size. |
| 11:39 |
garycmartin |
tomeu: I have a few bugs I'd like you to help me add if this ever makes it 'in' ;-) |
| 11:40 |
tomeu |
garycmartin: sure, I love adding bugs! |
| 11:41 |
garycmartin |
eben: how would the grid fill, left to right, right down, etc, etc. larger icons when you only have 10-20 or so activities, smaller when you have more?? |
| 11:42 |
eben |
garycmartin: Not yet determined. We we're thinking that it might be an extension of freeform, where placement is random but constrained to the grid. |
| 11:43 |
|
scanline order is also a possibility, but not particularly exciting....a square spiral would also work.... |
| 11:43 |
|
Logs: http://sugarlabs.org/go/Design[…]Meetings/09.03.01 |
| 11:43 |
|
Oh dear. Yes, that is ugly. |
| 11:44 |
garycmartin |
eben: hmmm, I'll wait for a mockup I think, devel in the detail and all that. |
| 11:45 |
eben |
OK, later all! Thanks for entertaining our ideas. We'll talk more next week, and try to get some plans in place. |
| 11:45 |
|
In the meantime, good luck finishing up 0.84! |
| 11:46 |
garycmartin |
eben: thanks eben, interesting chat. |
| 11:47 |
|
thinks it's still early but needs a large drink... |
| 11:48 |
tomeu |
I was thinking about that, but think I'm going to fix some bugs first |
| 11:48 |
garycmartin |
tomeu: good point. I should hit some Labyrinth todos also. |
| 11:48 |
tomeu |
garycmartin: when you come for the 0.84 release party, will be happy to show you the best beer in prague ;) |
| 11:49 |
garycmartin |
tomeu: :-D |
| 11:49 |
|
tomeu: will be a happy day :-) |
| 11:49 |
|
tomeu: catch you later... |
| 15:33 |
mtd |
sdziallas: ping |
| 15:33 |
sdziallas |
mtd: pong! |
| 15:33 |
mtd |
sdziallas: hi! which would you rather people play with: soas-2 or fedora-xo? They still seem different enough to me... |
| 15:34 |
sdziallas |
mtd: hey :) well... really depends. if you'd ask cjb, he'd probably refer you to fedora-xo. concerning soas-2, I can tell you that we'll be publishing a new snapshot, if not even a release quite soonish, since 0.84 is pretty close now. |
| 15:35 |
mtd |
is building both from your ks files |
| 15:36 |
|
so I won't worry about waiting for an image :) |
| 15:36 |
sdziallas |
mtd: well, the one helps more getting Fedora to run on the XO, while the other one helps us directly to promote Sugar with SoaS. |
| 15:36 |
|
mtd: ah okay, that's cool :) |
| 15:36 |
mtd |
is depressed that building an image takes about as long as downloading it :) |
| 15:36 |
|
sdziallas: I guess I should splay with soas on my XO then |
| 15:37 |
sdziallas |
mtd: I won't prevent you from doing so, yeah... |
| 15:37 |
mtd |
prefers to promote Sugar on his XO so he can use it to program activities, hack sugar, and ssh to his mail server. |
| 15:37 |
|
sdziallas: heh |
| 15:37 |
sdziallas |
mtd: I figured that having a cache around with the latest packages increases the image creation speed a bit, but still, you're right... |
| 15:37 |
mtd |
sdziallas: s/increases/decreases/? |
| 15:38 |
|
sdziallas: ah sorry |
| 15:38 |
|
sdziallas: yeah I find that as well :) |
| 15:38 |
sdziallas |
mtd: :) |
| 15:38 |
mtd |
sdziallas: takes about 15 minutes to build an image and about the same to download 500MB |
| 15:38 |
|
sdziallas: is the sl.org git repo for soas up-to-date? |
| 15:38 |
sdziallas |
mtd: heh, for me it takes partly hours to get stuff... |
| 15:39 |
mtd |
sdziallas: ouch! |
| 15:39 |
sdziallas |
mtd: mostly, yeah. |
| 15:39 |
|
(I don't have any significant missing changes in mind, right now) |
| 15:39 |
mtd |
sdziallas: cool, thx |
| 15:39 |
sdziallas |
:) |
| 15:42 |
mtd |
sdziallas: is there a reason besides startup speed/memory that you have disabled sshd on boot? |
| 15:42 |
cjb |
mtd: the standard Fedora install does that, doesn't it? |
| 15:42 |
sdziallas |
mtd: this has been done in one of the earliest builds, but I don't recall any other reason |
| 15:42 |
m_stone |
mtd, sdziallas: (heya!) |
| 15:43 |
sdziallas |
waves to m_stone & cjb ;) |
| 15:43 |
mtd |
m_stone: hi hi |
| 15:43 |
sdziallas |
cjb, mtd: yep, it does: http://git.fedoraproject.org/g[…]dora-live-base.ks |
| 15:43 |
mtd |
cjb: dunno, sorry, didn't realize it was standard |
| 15:43 |
|
sdziallas: ah, thanks |
| 15:43 |
|
finds that odd |
| 15:43 |
sdziallas |
mtd: well, I don't see any other reason for that, either. sooo... |
| 15:44 |
|
mh! |
| 15:44 |
mtd |
sdziallas: was just asking. I'll futz with enabling it in my .ks build once I get something that boots in less than a few minutes :) |
| 15:45 |
sdziallas |
mtd: okay, sounds like a good plan! ;) |
| 15:58 |
mtd |
realises what channel this is, grumbles at himself. |
| 11:01 |
SeanDaly |
Hi, Sean here, anybody yet? |
| 11:01 |
caroline |
I am |
| 11:02 |
SeanDaly |
Hi Caroline! |
| 11:02 |
dfarning |
is this marketing? |
| 11:02 |
caroline |
hi DAve, are you paying $5 a hour? |
| 11:02 |
SeanDaly |
dfarning: Sure is but haven't started yet, about to |
| 11:02 |
dfarning |
sounds good |
| 11:03 |
SeanDaly |
Hi jt4sugar! |
| 11:03 |
jt4sugar |
hI sEAN |
| 11:04 |
dfarning |
No, but the food is free. |
| 11:04 |
SeanDaly |
Shall I start? |
| 11:04 |
dfarning |
ahh. No, we have the free logon |
| 11:04 |
tomeu |
hi all! |
| 11:04 |
SeanDaly |
Hi Tomeu! |
| 11:04 |
|
#start-meeting |
| 11:05 |
|
Lots of topics today but don't let me do all the talking :D |
| 11:06 |
|
Why don't we start with the phone number problem |
| 11:06 |
|
Reminder, the idea is for Sugar Labs to have a journalist-facing phone number |
| 11:06 |
dfarning |
Is astrick a possiable solution? |
| 11:06 |
SeanDaly |
useful for those times (like hopefully next week) when there is "news" |
| 11:07 |
tomeu |
geeks love to propose asterisk, but I don't see that working very often |
| 11:07 |
SeanDaly |
I had pinged Bernie about the asterix possibility but no reply :-( |
| 11:07 |
caroline |
asterix seems like a very big hammer for this job |
| 11:08 |
|
we have used it for a client project and it took quite a bit of work to set up by an expert |
| 11:08 |
SeanDaly |
So I found this: #LINK: http://www.efls.com/voicemail.html |
| 11:08 |
|
Greetings mchua & homunq |
| 11:08 |
mchua |
Hey, sorry I'm late. |
| 11:09 |
SeanDaly |
They propose a voicemail box with local Boston number and e-mail forwarding of voicemail for 10 USD per month |
| 11:09 |
homunq |
doesn't know what meeting this is...? |
| 11:09 |
|
:/ |
| 11:09 |
SeanDaly |
homunq: "Marketing" |
| 11:09 |
homunq |
ok |
| 11:09 |
dfarning |
That looks reasonable. |
| 11:10 |
caroline |
Sean what does it give us for $10 that GrandCentral doesn't give us for free? |
| 11:10 |
SeanDaly |
They offer other US cities local numbers |
| 11:10 |
tomeu |
maybe the people that are going to answer the phone get to decide by themselves? |
| 11:10 |
SeanDaly |
Caroline: GrandCentral piggybacks on an existing phone number |
| 11:10 |
caroline |
does it ring your number? |
| 11:11 |
|
hmm, I didn't think so I thought it gave me a new number, and a 617 number. |
| 11:11 |
SeanDaly |
caroline: no, "Follow Me" is more like $49 per month + charges |
| 11:11 |
|
is 617 Boston I guess? |
| 11:11 |
caroline |
yes |
| 11:11 |
|
will this one ring your phone in Europe? |
| 11:11 |
SeanDaly |
No, $10/month is a voicemal box only |
| 11:12 |
dfarning |
I have a cell phone which I only use for SL, we can send calls to it for now. |
| 11:12 |
caroline |
huh, seems like GC gives us voicemail +email for free |
| 11:12 |
SeanDaly |
GC USA only :-( |
| 11:13 |
|
dfarning: do you mean we could put that number on press releases? |
| 11:13 |
caroline |
only people from teh US can call into a GC nuber? |
| 11:13 |
|
really? |
| 11:13 |
SeanDaly |
caroline: any number can call the US number linked to GC, but GC will only forward to a US number |
| 11:13 |
caroline |
want to try to call mine? I'm pretty sure I've had calls from teh UK and France |
| 11:14 |
dfarning |
SeanDaly, Yes, we can start with that number and move it to other service as we grow. |
| 11:14 |
caroline |
but if the $10 a month one won't forward to a non US phone then how is it better? |
| 11:14 |
SeanDaly |
caroline: better than nothing :-) |
| 11:15 |
caroline |
can't we get teh same thing by getting a free GC number and having it not forward? |
| 11:15 |
SeanDaly |
Remember, a phone number on a press release may be noted by a journalist and called back months later... |
| 11:15 |
caroline |
hmm am I the only one confused, cause if everyone else gets it i'll shut up :) |
| 11:15 |
SeanDaly |
Perhaps I don't understand completely how GC works, my understanding is that you come to it with a number already |
| 11:15 |
caroline |
no you don't |
| 11:16 |
|
it will give you a number |
| 11:16 |
|
seems to be out of 617 numbers right now though. but how important is that? |
| 11:16 |
|
http://www.grandcentral.com/home/reserve |
| 11:16 |
SeanDaly |
caroline: I'm sure though that it won't forward outside the US, they list that as part of their "expansion plans" |
| 11:17 |
caroline |
yes they don't forward outside the US |
| 11:17 |
SeanDaly |
caroline: that link bounces me to a "you are not in USA, you don't exist" page |
| 11:17 |
caroline |
and if we can pay $10 a month to forward outside the US thats great |
| 11:17 |
mchua |
notes that it's almost 1/3 of the way into meeting time |
| 11:17 |
caroline |
opps :) |
| 11:17 |
|
ok lets me and Sean take tis offline |
| 11:17 |
walterbender |
+1 |
| 11:17 |
SeanDaly |
Well, this is hot & we need a solution |
| 11:18 |
|
OK for offline |
| 11:18 |
caroline |
Sean maybe you can call my GC number after and we'll work it out. |
| 11:18 |
SeanDaly |
Next: marketing talikg points |
| 11:18 |
|
talikg -> talking |
| 11:18 |
|
So... start with... what are the "three" key great new things about Sugar? |
| 11:18 |
jt4sugar |
SeanDaly: check these out later-http://www.voicestick.com/ http://www.uwtcallback.com/call_my_us_number.html |
| 11:19 |
SeanDaly |
jt4sugar: thanks will do |
| 11:19 |
walterbender |
SeanDaly: 3 new things baout 0.84? |
| 11:19 |
dfarning |
action# caroline and SeanDaly resolve phone issue by next meeting |
| 11:20 |
tomeu |
maybe the biggest is that Sugar runs in lots more places than before? |
| 11:20 |
mchua |
dfarning: SeanDaly has to say the #action for meetbot to pick it up |
| 11:20 |
SeanDaly |
dfarning: sooner than that I hope... by 0.84 media blitz date |
| 11:20 |
|
tomeu: good suggestion! |
| 11:20 |
mchua |
tomeu, you and the other developers would know better than most of us, I think (too bad erikos isn't around) |
| 11:21 |
|
Is there a list of shiny new features somewhere around the development section of the wiki? |
| 11:21 |
SeanDaly |
#action resolve phone issue with Caroline & Walter |
| 11:21 |
walterbender |
and the Journal interface is much simpler, cleaner |
| 11:21 |
mchua |
or major closed bugs in trac? |
| 11:21 |
dfarning |
Are we ready to promote activities? It will be running in a few days |
| 11:21 |
tomeu |
well, the points we choose depend on the audience |
| 11:21 |
|
so it's not a matter of just developers |
| 11:21 |
walterbender |
and lots of new activity features |
| 11:21 |
erikos |
hello |
| 11:21 |
tomeu |
maybe TAP? |
| 11:21 |
walterbender |
erikos: too bad you are not around :) |
| 11:21 |
mchua |
erikos! hey. SeanDaly was just asking what the 3 biggest new features in 0.84 are that we should be announcing. |
| 11:21 |
SeanDaly |
mchua: closing bugs, while laudable, is I'm afraid rarely if ever a marketing priority :-) |
| 11:22 |
walterbender |
universal view source? |
| 11:22 |
SeanDaly |
because the idea is, bugs are "supposed" to be fixed |
| 11:22 |
erikos |
walterbender, hehe |
| 11:22 |
|
mchua, walterbender view source is one |
| 11:22 |
SeanDaly |
I like improved Journal + universal view source, because these are strong points exclusive to Sugar |
| 11:22 |
erikos |
resume by default another one |
| 11:23 |
walterbender |
the resume by default doesn't sound sexy, but it is a major usability enhancement |
| 11:23 |
erikos |
and journal yes! |
| 11:23 |
SeanDaly |
erikos: Yes that's a good one |
| 11:23 |
dfarning |
runs on more platforms, runs more activities easer to use |
| 11:23 |
tomeu |
the journal and resume by default could be conflated in one? |
| 11:23 |
walterbender |
we could add the portfolio to the mix as well |
| 11:23 |
mchua |
SeanDaly: aye, but some bugs (or enhancements) are major user-facing features, so that's another place to find 'em. |
| 11:23 |
erikos |
tomeu, yup - good point |
| 11:23 |
mchua |
(though this seems to be way more efficient.:) |
| 11:24 |
SeanDaly |
Resume by default is a big one, because many Mac users reboot once a month and suspend/resume the rest of the time while on Windows it's iffy |
| 11:24 |
walterbender |
maybe highlight things like infoslicer as a tool for teachers and content creators? |
| 11:24 |
tomeu |
mchua: but perhaps saying we fixed major deficiencies is like saying "we suck less", which may be less important for marketing purposes |
| 11:24 |
mchua |
SeanDaly, I think he meant Activities resume by default, not suspend/resume |
| 11:24 |
SeanDaly |
(referring to typical teacher & parent experience of resume) |
| 11:24 |
mchua |
tomeu: point taken... yeah. |
| 11:24 |
SeanDaly |
mchua: Ahhh yes without cluttering up the Journal oops |
| 11:24 |
tomeu |
SeanDaly: oh, it's not resuming the machine |
| 11:25 |
|
right ;) |
| 11:25 |
erikos |
yup - i was not really clear :/ |
| 11:25 |
walterbender |
nor I |
| 11:25 |
mchua |
SeanDaly, got enough stuff for your list? ;) |
| 11:25 |
walterbender |
addons is a big deal too |
| 11:25 |
SeanDaly |
erikos: Well, that's we're here for - to make a clear case for trying "new improved" Sugar ;-) |
| 11:25 |
erikos |
SeanDaly, i can update you with a url that should have all the new features listed soon |
| 11:25 |
SeanDaly |
erikos: Many thanks |
| 11:25 |
mchua |
oh sweet, release notes! |
| 11:25 |
caroline |
should addons be a separate press release? |
| 11:26 |
erikos |
mchua, yeah |
| 11:26 |
mchua |
+1 addsons as separate |
| 11:26 |
cjb |
mchua: fun photo of you on the olpcnews front page :) |
| 11:26 |
SeanDaly |
caroline: when I say "press release" I mean the "main" press + educators release... not very technical |
| 11:26 |
jt4sugar |
Activities-List a few- Infoslicer-teachers, etoys-kids, Portfolio/Journal-helps teachers and students and parents |
| 11:27 |
caroline |
Sean, agreed but do we want to have more of them or less of them? |
| 11:27 |
|
we certainly coudl do 2 |
| 11:27 |
SeanDaly |
jt4sugar: Yes - I want to do star marketing on Activities |
| 11:27 |
|
caroline: more of what? |
| 11:27 |
erikos |
the development release notes do contain good information as well already http://sugarlabs.org/go/Develo[…]/Roadmap#Schedule |
| 11:27 |
|
each has a link in the schedule |
| 11:28 |
SeanDaly |
Now, I'm sorry I'm not up to speed but what is Portfolio? |
| 11:28 |
walterbender |
addons is not very well populated yet... we should hold off on that press release until we migrate more activities into it. |
| 11:28 |
|
portfolio is a way to make portfolio presentations from Journal entries... an assessment ool |
| 11:28 |
|
^ool^tool |
| 11:29 |
tomeu |
also, activities.sl.o may need a new look before advertising widely |
| 11:29 |
caroline |
Portfolio is goign to be the most interesting of the 3 things to eductors |
| 11:29 |
SeanDaly |
walterbender: interesting, amplifies the usefulness of the Journal |
| 11:29 |
caroline |
yeah, I agree activities.so isn't ready to publicize yet. |
| 11:30 |
SeanDaly |
The static site will I think do an excellent job of introducing Sugar |
| 11:30 |
jt4sugar |
If we can make release Kid/Teacher Centric I think it will be big Win! |
| 11:30 |
SeanDaly |
jt4sugar: that's why I compiled the 75+ education press/portal/journals links ;-) |
| 11:31 |
erikos |
tomeu, we had a designer for this if i remember correctly |
| 11:31 |
SeanDaly |
OK i propose to start a marketing list thread so we can hit-parade the marketing taliking points in the next day or so, OK? |
| 11:32 |
tomeu |
erikos: yeah, but takes time to make stuff actually happen |
| 11:32 |
erikos |
tomeu, sure |
| 11:32 |
SeanDaly |
#action: marketing list thread to hit-parade marketing talking points for press release |
| 11:32 |
erikos |
SeanDaly, sounds good |
| 11:33 |
SeanDaly |
I'd like to jump to item 4 in the agenda #link: http://sugarlabs.org/go/MarketingTeam/Meetings |
| 11:33 |
|
Is it possible today to pick a day for the media launch? Or, alternatively how can we pick that day/time? |
| 11:33 |
walterbender |
Ides of March? |
| 11:34 |
|
we can hold a toga party for the release party :) |
| 11:34 |
SeanDaly |
walterbender: "beware the Ides of March"... |
| 11:35 |
|
Seriously, March 15th? will give us loads of time I thought would be sooner |
| 11:35 |
walterbender |
we could do sooner... what day of the week is most likely to get us coverage... a slow news day |
| 11:35 |
SeanDaly |
By tradition, slow news day is Monday morning |
| 11:36 |
walterbender |
so next MOnday morning? |
| 11:36 |
SeanDaly |
But, our news is a tad less high-priority for journalists than the economy, the US president, etc so any day but Friday would be all right I think |
| 11:37 |
mchua |
+1 ides of march, actually - that's around the time we'll be deploying Sugar here in Boston, and coinciding press releases might be handy. |
| 11:37 |
SeanDaly |
Monday morning the 16th? |
| 11:37 |
walterbender |
education should be at the heart of every solution to every pre...oblem we fac |
| 11:38 |
|
I think we should issue a challenge to educate in our press release... |
| 11:38 |
SeanDaly |
mchua: do these deployments involve being in school? |
| 11:38 |
walterbender |
we are the solution... |
| 11:38 |
jt4sugar |
Everyone will forget us the next day on St Pattys. might wait till they all sober up |
| 11:38 |
mchua |
SeanDaly: yeah, but it's a small first-world (Boston) deployment, so it might not matter as much. and i don't have an absolute "Sugar will be here on X date" date for that. |
| 11:39 |
SeanDaly |
walterbender: actually I really like talking about "passionate Sugar volunteers on a mission to educate" |
| 11:39 |
walterbender |
SeanDaly: yes. |
| 11:39 |
SeanDaly |
jt4sugar: I'll bring me bit o' the ol' irish luck in ;-) |
| 11:40 |
|
Are we OK for March 16th? |
| 11:40 |
walterbender |
sounds like a plab |
| 11:40 |
tomeu |
ok |
| 11:40 |
walterbender |
^plab^plan |
| 11:40 |
SeanDaly |
I like that date because we will have time to translate the PR too |
| 11:40 |
mchua |
walterbender, that reminds me - that would be a good date to coincide the "1-year vision roadmap for SL" post with. |
| 11:41 |
SeanDaly |
#action: press release date March 16th |
| 11:41 |
tomeu |
for March 16th, I hope we have a good soas for people to try |
| 11:41 |
walterbender |
mchua, almost wrote it for this week, but decided the release too precedence. |
| 11:42 |
mchua |
yay! |
| 11:42 |
SeanDaly |
OK, now... what time on the 16th? I propose the morning EST, say 9:00 AM? |
| 11:42 |
walterbender |
gives you Europeans a chance to sleep in :) |
| 11:43 |
SeanDaly |
Of course, it's possible no journalists will care or telephone, but I'd rather we (mostly) be all awake |
| 11:43 |
|
OK let's discuss the PR draft process |
| 11:44 |
|
i take exception to drafting it online in a web-facing list... any alert journalist will just pick up a draft and link to it & blog it. |
| 11:44 |
walterbender |
google docs? |
| 11:44 |
SeanDaly |
I mean, it would be great to have the exposure, but it's better if we can plan for it. |
| 11:45 |
|
walterbender: +1 |
| 11:45 |
caroline |
+1 |
| 11:45 |
walterbender |
or Write in Sugar? |
| 11:45 |
SeanDaly |
I guess we can darft a shared document in the start.sugarlabs.org? |
| 11:46 |
|
walterbender: wow... if we manage to dogfood it we will have to brag about that ;-) |
| 11:46 |
walterbender |
SeanDaly: maybe the two of us can get started that way atleast... |
| 11:47 |
SeanDaly |
walterbender: Google Docs, or Write? |
| 11:47 |
walterbender |
Write... |
| 11:47 |
|
then we can legitimately say we aate the dogfood!! |
| 11:47 |
tomeu |
ok, don't forget to enter tickets when you find bugs ;) |
| 11:48 |
SeanDaly |
OK only thing is I only have XO connectivity at home with ethernet adapter |
| 11:48 |
tomeu |
SeanDaly: cannot use soas is any other computer? |
| 11:49 |
SeanDaly |
tomeu: have downloaded ISO a couple of times, but have not succeeded yet in flashing USB stick :-( |
| 11:49 |
tomeu |
SeanDaly: that's a big problem |
| 11:49 |
|
SeanDaly: we need to understand why people are having problems with that |
| 11:49 |
|
SeanDaly: maybe we can talk in #sugar? |
| 11:50 |
SeanDaly |
tomeu: because house full of aging Macs none of which can run SoaS... I have a fairly recent PC I built a couple of years ago with a wrecked Win install on it, might install a new hard drive & work with a GNU/Linux distrib |
| 11:50 |
tomeu |
ok |
| 11:50 |
SeanDaly |
tomeu: I'll mail you offline & "expose" my problem |
| 11:51 |
tomeu |
hopefully not a lot of people will be like you ;) |
| 11:51 |
SeanDaly |
tomeu: I'm afraid it might be worse: I know the command line & have worked with computers for 20 years :-( |
| 11:51 |
caroline |
we should find a way to create sticks on the mac |
| 11:52 |
SeanDaly |
caroline: in fact it's easier on recent (Intel) Macs, but I don't have one & no plans |
| 11:52 |
|
I have an EeePC though |
| 11:52 |
tomeu |
sebastian is our man here, he's in contact with the people that try to solve the same issue for plain fedora |
| 11:52 |
|
SeanDaly: soas runs well on an eeepc here |
| 11:52 |
SeanDaly |
And was thinking of obtaining a classmate or small Dell or HP |
| 11:53 |
mchua |
notes we have 5 minutes left in scheduled meeting time |
| 11:53 |
tomeu |
but as mchua would say, we are losing focus |
| 11:53 |
|
damn, she beat me |
| 11:53 |
SeanDaly |
tomeu: offlist you'll tell me how to use EeePC |
| 11:53 |
tomeu |
ok |
| 11:53 |
mchua |
grins |
| 11:53 |
SeanDaly |
OK on the brochure: I'll wait until static site is up |
| 11:54 |
|
I want to take this opportunity to thank Christian and everyone who worked on the site I really like it now |
| 11:54 |
walterbender |
thins about how to get Sean an OLPC XO |
| 11:54 |
tomeu |
yeah, I'm quite happy as well |
| 11:54 |
SeanDaly |
Let's talk SoaS in the last few minutes OK? |
| 11:54 |
|
walterbender: I have two XOs ;-) |
| 11:55 |
|
G1G1x2 |
| 11:55 |
|
SoaS: I haven't ordered them yet |
| 11:55 |
|
It seems most of them are made in Taiwan & Shenzen |
| 11:56 |
|
I found a company that can do nice 1 Gb sticks with logo... from Hong Kong including shipping to US, but *not* customs |
| 11:56 |
|
At $6.40 per stick |
| 11:56 |
caroline |
good price |
| 11:57 |
tomeu |
cool |
| 11:57 |
caroline |
how is the brochure for me to go begging wtih going? |
| 11:57 |
tomeu |
I have 20 |
| 11:57 |
|
I want 20 |
| 11:57 |
walterbender |
SeanDaly: I wonder if someone at OLPC could handle the customs business for us? |
| 11:57 |
SeanDaly |
i also found a supplier who does plastic USB sticks as red candy wrappers! |
| 11:57 |
mchua |
looks skeptical about banking on OLPC for customs |
| 11:57 |
SeanDaly |
walterbender: could we investigate? |
| 11:58 |
tomeu |
would be bad if happened the same as with pizzas in the sugarcamp |
| 11:58 |
SeanDaly |
caroline: re PDF brochure, I want to do that once the static site is up (next couple of days) |
| 11:58 |
walterbender |
seandaly: I will ask them |
| 11:59 |
SeanDaly |
Where will the sticks be shipped to? |
| 11:59 |
caroline |
great thanks! |
| 11:59 |
|
me? |
| 11:59 |
walterbender |
tomeu; mchua: I'll ask Robert Fadel, a singularity of effiiency |
| 12:00 |
SeanDaly |
caroline: OK.. I know I can count on you to not fling them into the crowd (since they are not cheap) |
| 12:00 |
tomeu |
yeah, robert has always delivered |
| 12:00 |
mchua |
oh my. yes, robert is amazing. |
| 12:00 |
caroline |
yup |
| 12:00 |
SeanDaly |
walterbender: please ask them if promotional materials have an exception... I think they do if you list the time & place of a "trade fair" |
| 12:01 |
|
Re SoaS preloading: most suppliers claim to do it |
| 12:01 |
sdziallas |
is late for the meeting, sorry |
| 12:02 |
caroline |
can we yum update? |
| 12:02 |
SeanDaly |
But most of them can't preload a bootable GNU/Linux image since they use Windows-specific software |
| 12:02 |
walterbender |
SeanDaly: can you email a summary of your questions? |
| 12:02 |
SeanDaly |
#action SD will email Walter list of importing questions for SoaS USB sticks |
| 12:03 |
|
caroline: ?? |
| 12:03 |
caroline |
yes? |
| 12:03 |
SeanDaly |
what is a yum update? |
| 12:03 |
caroline |
its a one step update of the whole system |
| 12:03 |
sdziallas |
caroline: yum update on soas? |
| 12:03 |
caroline |
is that the right terminonogy? |
| 12:04 |
|
basically if we preload it woudl be good to be able to update if we need to. |
| 12:04 |
SeanDaly |
i'm afraid I have no advice to offer about the best way to individually flash sticks |
| 12:04 |
tomeu |
caroline: yum update would update a running system to newer versions of packages |
| 12:05 |
|
I guess flashing is their business, but it's true that not too many people might be asking for bootable linux images |
| 12:05 |
mchua |
notes that we're 6 minutes over meeting time ;) |
| 12:05 |
SeanDaly |
I have researched a shell-script solution using dd which would allow my PPC Macs to write the ISO out to a USB stick |
| 12:05 |
caroline |
I think the first batch we'll have to get volunteers to help. |
| 12:05 |
SeanDaly |
OK one more item agenda: Sugar STories! |
| 12:05 |
mchua |
wonders whether she could replace herself with a meetbot code addition that periodically called out how much time we had left. |
| 12:05 |
caroline |
Mel wanted free admission to the FLOSS conference ;) |
| 12:06 |
mchua |
Stories! SeanDaly, I can get you a profile on the CFS deployment folks by press release date for sure. |
| 12:06 |
|
(with some "and a bunch of high schoolers from IL came to help us out" thrown in on the side because the IMSA kids are awesome.) |
| 12:06 |
SeanDaly |
mchua: sounds great! |
| 12:07 |
erikos |
FLOSS - reminds /me of FLOSS Manuals (i guess we need to coordinate an update here as well) |
| 12:07 |
SeanDaly |
mchua: remind me what CFS is...? |
| 12:07 |
mchua |
SeanDaly: the grassroots deployment in boston, cambridge friends school |
| 12:07 |
SeanDaly |
mchua: gotcha |
| 12:07 |
mchua |
another profile might be the SoaS team - caroline, sdziallas, etc |
| 12:07 |
SeanDaly |
mchua: good ide, because our next "big" press release will be SoaS I guess |
| 12:08 |
|
s/ide/idea |
| 12:08 |
mchua |
oh, okay. I'll wait for that, then. |
| 12:08 |
SeanDaly |
mchua; no, don't wait - we are mentioning SoaS already, as "under active development" |
| 12:08 |
walterbender |
maybe dsd? insight into the Paraguay deployment? |
| 12:09 |
tomeu |
hmm, I saw the stories thing as something more individual, so that current lurkers could get an idea of the process through which proven contributors found their way |
| 12:09 |
SeanDaly |
walterbender: nice idea since brings in the intternational aspect |
| 12:09 |
walterbender |
maybe Christian and Eben for a designer's perspective? |
| 12:09 |
caroline |
I like the team story idea |
| 12:09 |
mchua |
is there an educator we can profile? |
| 12:09 |
SeanDaly |
walterbender: +1 |
| 12:09 |
mchua |
Ok, what I'll do is start a queue of interviews on the wiki, shout it out to the marketing list, and people can push stuff onto the queue |
| 12:09 |
tomeu |
well, christian and eben got involved into sugar in a way that casual contributors won't get |
| 12:10 |
SeanDaly |
mchua, it would be great if you could work on Sugar Stories |
| 12:10 |
mchua |
I'll work through the queue as far as I can before press release date, and other people can also help work through the queue |
| 12:10 |
walterbender |
Bill Kerr would be great or Tony Forster? |
| 12:10 |
tomeu |
not saying it's not interesting, just that it won't probably inspire more people to actually do stuff |
| 12:10 |
jt4sugar |
mchua: you should interview Evangeline |
| 12:10 |
SeanDaly |
Sugar Stories will help us attract new volunteers |
| 12:10 |
walterbender |
How about Dongyun Lee? |
| 12:10 |
|
and Mike Lee? |
| 12:10 |
SeanDaly |
tomeu: you don't think so? |
| 12:11 |
tomeu |
SeanDaly: what I mean is that there are several dozens of people that are already interested in sugar, they lurk in #sugar and the mailing lists, but they haven't found yet the way to contribute |
| 12:11 |
|
SeanDaly: a very small part of these people managed at some point to overcome that barrier and became successful contributors |
| 12:11 |
jt4sugar |
Should ask community members how and why they got involved-the answers will speak for themselves |
| 12:11 |
tomeu |
my original idea was to replicate that movement from lurker to doer |
| 12:11 |
SeanDaly |
jt4sugar is right |
| 12:12 |
tomeu |
it may be two very different things: individual interviews to "proven contributors" and success stories |
| 12:12 |
SeanDaly |
tomeu: and I was in that category too... an IAEP list subscriber woondering how to contribute |
| 12:12 |
jt4sugar |
And the answers should include who helped them along |
| 12:12 |
tomeu |
SeanDaly: right, you are a good candidate to be interviewed in that way |
| 12:12 |
SeanDaly |
tomeu: tee hee I'll interview meself |
| 12:13 |
tomeu |
I also don't know how caroline and dfarning decided one day to actually do stuff |
| 12:13 |
|
but they have done really good stuff |
| 12:13 |
SeanDaly |
It's true that the mystique & jargon around coding can be daunting |
| 12:13 |
tomeu |
if we can explain how this varied array of people found their way to contribute, we increase the chances that this process happens inside more people |
| 12:14 |
walterbender |
there are lots of folks out there among the developer ranks as well... |
| 12:14 |
|
and in deployment circles... |
| 12:14 |
SeanDaly |
there is a common thread... we want kids to have a better education |
| 12:14 |
tomeu |
in #sugar there's typically 80 people, but nobody there explains how they decided to submit their first patch |
| 12:14 |
SeanDaly |
back to my agenda idea, perhaps each of us can write up a few phrases: "Why I contribute"? |
| 12:15 |
jt4sugar |
For each team we should have a "why I got involved page" "What led me here" |
| 12:15 |
mchua |
add more suggestions for interviews to the queue at http://sugarlabs.org/go/Market[…]eam/Sugar_stories, but note that I *can't* get to all these groups in <2wks |
| 12:15 |
tomeu |
I was thinking rather about "how did I got started into doing stuff" |
| 12:15 |
SeanDaly |
tomeu: well, it's true that it's a personal choice |
| 12:16 |
|
mchua: 3 to 5 stories would be grand enough |
| 12:16 |
tomeu |
but that's because I'm thinking about how to further involve people that are already in the sugarlabs community, but still as observers |
| 12:16 |
mchua |
I might struggle to hit that number, but it's a good ambitious target. I'll see what I can do. |
| 12:16 |
tomeu |
it's true that growing the community is also important |
| 12:16 |
mchua |
Can I suggest a community growth focus for the-release-after-this-next-one? (0.88?) |
| 12:17 |
caroline |
afk |
| 12:17 |
SeanDaly |
tomeu has a point... it's probably tha case that most active contributors started out as lurkers |
| 12:17 |
tomeu |
that's one year ;) |
| 12:17 |
mchua |
tomeu: 6 months. |
| 12:17 |
|
we need more things for new people to do, more mentors to help them, and so on, before we go "floodgates! open!" |
| 12:17 |
tomeu |
mchua: true, we'll start working on 0.88 in 6 months |
| 12:18 |
mchua |
my focus for the 0.86 release is to help teams build community participation infrastructures, now that we have some good solid teams |
| 12:18 |
SeanDaly |
mchua: actually what I'd like to see is teacher particpants sharing how they use Sugar in the classroom... cf the feedback topic of 2 wks ago |
| 12:18 |
mchua |
SeanDaly, if someone can get me in touch with teacher participants willing to talk for an hour or two, I'll gladly interview 'em and write up nice profiles. |
| 12:18 |
SeanDaly |
we need volunteers to manage volunteers |
| 12:19 |
|
mchua: that's where local Labs can come in |
| 12:19 |
|
But this week I wanted to talk priority about the PR which is why I left that off ;-) |
| 12:19 |
tomeu |
mchua: do we already know that a mentor plus a given project is the best way for people to get started? I think it's not the case that sustained contributors had those conditions before starting to contribute |
| 12:19 |
mchua |
nope, but that's a good thing to find out. |
| 12:20 |
walterbender |
mchua: there is a teacher from Uruguay who has been active lately: |
| 12:20 |
jt4sugar |
mchua: best shot is to talk to SJ and have him put you in touch with Birmingham deployment |
| 12:20 |
mchua |
walterbender: awesome! can you pop them on the http://sugarlabs.org/go/Market[…]eam/Sugar_stories list? |
| 12:20 |
SeanDaly |
i think part of what motivates people to contribute is the feeling that their contribution will be valuable, will "make a difference" |
| 12:20 |
walterbender |
mchua: Oneyda Ortega is starting to get his students to document their work |
| 12:20 |
tomeu |
mchua: that's why I would like to read about how people got to do sugar stuff |
| 12:20 |
|
mchua: normally it was by taking an area of responsibility |
| 12:20 |
walterbender |
mchua: maybe a good interview subject... in Spanish. |
| 12:21 |
tomeu |
a mentor might take a bit of responsibility out from the new volunteer |
| 12:21 |
|
thus making the commitment less strong and lasting |
| 12:22 |
mchua |
walterbender: send me his contact info offlist and I'll try to find someone who speaks Spanish to do the interview - my es is terrible. |
| 12:22 |
|
okeydokey. SeanDaly, anything else? |
| 12:22 |
SeanDaly |
I think we've hit the high notes for this time? |
| 12:23 |
|
going once, going twice... |
| 12:23 |
|
#end-meeting |
| 12:23 |
mchua |
SeanDaly: no hyphen |
| 12:23 |
SeanDaly |
zut! #endmeeting |
| 12:24 |
mchua |
SeanDaly: no zut! ;) |
| 12:24 |
SeanDaly |
#endmeeting |
| 12:25 |
mchua |
scratches head |
| 12:25 |
|
#startmeeting |
| 12:25 |
|
hm. |
| 12:25 |
SeanDaly |
oh no did I mess up? |
| 12:26 |
mchua |
Don't worry about it, just ask someone to copy-paste their logs to the wiki. |
| 12:26 |
|
Meetbot seems to be a bit awry. |
| 12:26 |
|
(Nothing you did, Sean - looks like a bot problem.) |
| 12:26 |
|
dogi, ^^^ - meetbot doesn't seem to be pushing logs to http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/ right now |
| 12:27 |
SeanDaly |
actually I think i did hashstart-meeting with a hyphen :-( |
| 12:27 |
mchua |
Don't worry about it - now we know for next time. :) |
| 12:27 |
SeanDaly |
i tried to log locally but messed that up tpp :-( |
| 12:28 |
|
tpp -> too |
| 12:28 |
mchua |
caroline or someone with logs, can you post to wiki (or forward to me and I'll do it)? |
| 12:28 |
|
and thanks for driving this forward, SeanDaly! You've got a tough job especially because most of us are new to this marketing thing. |
| 12:28 |
|
so it's great to be able to watch and listen to you and learn. |
| 12:28 |
SeanDaly |
I do my best but the real test will be if we manage to get any atttention at all on the 16th ;-) |
| 12:28 |
mchua |
(my marketing education prior to this consisted of reading one chapter in "the 10 day mba" for a required class.) |
| 12:29 |
|
I'm bracing myself for the flood of press. :) It's going to be fantastic. |
| 12:29 |
SeanDaly |
there might not be a flood... or even a trickle... it can happen that we work hard and nothing happens |
| 12:30 |
|
Press coverage is extremely random as any marketing/PR person can tell you |
| 12:31 |
mchua |
Even if it's a trickle, it gives us a good base of materials to work with for ongoing marketing/outreach. |
| 12:32 |
SeanDaly |
one of the "secrets" to getting press coverage is if an influential journalist covers the subject... there is a "lemming effect" |
| 12:33 |
|
the Holy Grail is a wire service: the slightest mention in AP, Reuters, Bloomberg, AFP, even specialized like IDG means dozens of articles |
| 12:34 |
|
OK mchua signing off now many many thanks |
| 12:36 |
tomeu |
mchua: still looking for the logs? |
| 12:36 |
mchua |
tomeu: yes, please! |
| 12:39 |
|
tomeu: got it, thanks! |
| 12:39 |
tomeu |
welcome! |
| 06:30 |
field_marshal |
is the meeting for discussing gsoc on?? |
| 06:34 |
tomeu |
field_marshal: hi, nope |
| 06:35 |
field_marshal |
tomeu: when would it start? |
| 06:37 |
tomeu |
field_marshal: 17:00 UTC |
| 06:42 |
field_marshal |
tomeu i have an idea for gsoc. Where can i submit it? |
| 06:43 |
|
i would like to work on it if given an opportunity this GSOC. |
| 06:43 |
tomeu |
field_marshal: here: http://sugarlabs.org/go/Develo[…]Team/ProjectIdeas |
| 06:50 |
field_marshal |
tomeu if i paste my idea there isnt it possible that someone could copy my idea? |
| 06:51 |
tomeu |
field_marshal: well, what is evaluated aren't the ideas, but the quality of the proposal |
| 06:51 |
|
having good ideas isn't what usually makes for a good gsoc |
| 06:51 |
field_marshal |
tomeu ok |
| 06:51 |
|
:) |
| 08:16 |
annette |
hello |
| 09:39 |
walterbender |
annette: are you looking for a meeting? |
| 10:21 |
mchua |
dirakx: argh! I'm sorry, Rafael - I put down the wrong time for deployment team meeting today. are there logs? I can send notes to the list instead... |
| 10:22 |
tomeu |
mchua: didn't saw a meeting yet |
| 10:22 |
|
today, I mean |
| 10:23 |
mchua |
tomeu: it turns out it was supposed to be 1.5 hours ago instead of 30 min from now |
| 10:24 |
tomeu |
actually, rita joined half an hour ago, so might have thought there was a deployment meeting going on |
| 10:48 |
dirakx |
mchua: you can send the logs to the list .. |
| 10:49 |
tomeu |
is very confused |
| 10:49 |
dirakx |
mchua: but there hasn't been any meeting :( |
| 10:49 |
mchua |
dirakx: aww! |
| 10:49 |
dirakx |
tomeu: hi :) |
| 10:50 |
walterbender |
thought there was a deployment meeting scheduled for 14UTC and a GSoC meeting scheduled for 17 UTC |
| 10:51 |
mchua |
there's a GSoC meeting in 10min, walterbender? that's a new one for me, I must have missed the list announcement... in any case I'm here though. :) |
| 10:51 |
|
org apps open next monday, so it's good timing |
| 10:52 |
tomeu |
yeah, it's much less stressing to be hear all day long instead of trying to track the meeting times :p |
| 10:52 |
|
s/hear/here |
| 10:52 |
walterbender |
mchua: I think the GSoC meeting is in 70 minutes |
| 10:52 |
mchua |
walterbender, dirakx, I was talking with Mike Lee yesterday, they're working on Sugar stuff in Washington DC... we came up with a barrage of questions about various SL group options, let me type them in from my notebook and shoot them here |
| 10:52 |
walterbender |
tomeu: +1 |
| 10:52 |
mchua |
goes to find notebook...somewhere in house... |
| 10:53 |
dirakx |
mchua: please do. |
| 10:53 |
walterbender |
mchua: I tried to find Mike at MIT all day... :( |
| 11:00 |
tomeu |
homunq: you said in that email that the meeting would be in 2 hours |
| 11:01 |
homunq |
oops |
| 11:01 |
|
1 hour, right? |
| 11:01 |
tomeu |
not sure, have heard lots of different times :p |
| 11:01 |
|
the first one asked 5 hours ago |
| 11:02 |
homunq |
yeah, 1 hour |
| 11:02 |
|
1700 utc |
| 11:05 |
dirakx |
yes 1 hour. |
| 11:08 |
mchua |
walterbender: he thought you were stuck home with the snow! |
| 11:08 |
|
found notebook |
| 11:10 |
walterbender |
was stuck in the snow on Monday... |
| 11:11 |
homunq |
mchua, you are coming to GSoC meeting in 50 minutes, right? |
| 11:11 |
mchua |
homunq: Yep, I'll be here. |
| 11:11 |
homunq |
(and walterbender...) |
| 11:11 |
tomeu |
everybody is here! |
| 11:11 |
mchua |
homunq, thanks for calling it - I probably missed the meeting announcement somewhere. |
| 11:11 |
walterbender |
homunq: yes. |
| 11:12 |
dirakx |
i'll be there also..;) |
| 11:12 |
mchua |
homunq, do you want to drive the meeting? I don't have a cohesive agenda since I just found out about this a few minutes ago. ;) (I could invent one, and will swing around and update the SL wiki page, but it sounds like you have more well-formed thoughts in this department at the moment.) |
| 11:12 |
|
shenki: ping, GSoC mtg in 45min here |
| 11:13 |
dirakx |
wants to see SL suceed on gsoc. :) |
| 11:13 |
homunq |
I can't say I have an extremely cohesive plan, but sure, I can drive. |
| 11:13 |
|
dirakx: can you mentor??? :) |
| 11:13 |
mchua |
sweet. |
| 11:14 |
dirakx |
homunq: thinking on it.. |
| 11:14 |
field_marshal |
is the discussion for gsoc goin on? |
| 11:14 |
homunq |
time is short |
| 11:14 |
|
field_marshal: in 45 minutes |
| 11:14 |
dirakx |
homunq: truth, |
| 11:14 |
mchua |
homunq, we need to clarify the commitment for gsoc mentors for SL so people can know what they're getting into |
| 11:14 |
homunq |
though we are chatting |
| 11:14 |
|
mchua: hold that thought :) |
| 11:15 |
mchua |
walterbender, dirakx, I've got those questions about local labs and groups typed up, want to discuss that here before gsoc? |
| 11:15 |
dirakx |
sure.. |
| 11:15 |
mchua |
clings to thought for dear life! |
| 11:15 |
walterbender |
ok |
| 11:16 |
nteon_ |
i volunteered myself as a mentor on the SL wiki, mchua/homunq I would certainly like to clarify my commitment when the meeting comes around :) |
| 11:16 |
mchua |
walterbender, dirakx, I put the questions we had on http://sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mchua/Sandbox temporarily, when we get answers worked out I'll find a better place to migrate them |
| 11:16 |
|
the first is "what's a local lab?" |
| 11:17 |
|
what is its purpose, what services does SL provide for local labs, who can/should start one, how do you start one? |
| 11:17 |
|
that kind of thing... we realized we were both fuzzy on that, if it was an interest group or a legal entity or whatnot. |
| 11:17 |
|
nteon_: Awesome, looking forward to having you! |
| 11:18 |
nteon_ |
mchua: thanks, let me know what i can do to help |
| 11:18 |
dirakx |
mchua: a local lab is an idependent org or company that agrees with SugarLabs mission and wants to extend it and apply it on an specific region. |
| 11:20 |
|
mchua: i think anyone can start one, and for many porpuses it should have a legal background. |
| 11:20 |
|
it can start as an interest group like ubuntu's LoCo teams.. |
| 11:21 |
|
SL ca provide services like wiki, maillists and mail accounts. |
| 11:22 |
|
can. |
| 11:22 |
|
all the services that google apps is offering. |
| 11:23 |
mchua |
dirakx: ok, so a legal entity is a requirement for a local lab, but it can be an existing org or company? (like if Bob's Computers, Inc. decided they wanted to do a Sugar deployment in Cuba, they'd become a Local Lab, kind of like an "approved corporate partner" of SL?) |
| 11:24 |
dirakx |
yes..that's my understanding on it. |
| 11:24 |
|
isn't walterbender ? |
| 11:25 |
mchua |
trying to put this in the context of groups and companies that already exist... would groups like OLE Nepal, Solutiongrove, and OLPCfriends be good candidates for LLs? |
| 11:25 |
walterbender |
yes |
| 11:25 |
dirakx |
mchua: yes |
| 11:25 |
|
indeed. |
| 11:25 |
|
for the initial interaction SL and LL have a MOU. |
| 11:25 |
mchua |
okay, but groups like "I'm a professor and my class is working on Sugar Activities this semester" would not be a LL. |
| 11:26 |
|
Ahh, okay, I vaguely remember the MOU being discussed... where can I find it? |
| 11:26 |
walterbender |
I'll find the wiki link.. |
| 11:27 |
dirakx |
http://sugarlabs.org/go/Deploy[…]eam/Local_Lab_MOU |
| 11:27 |
walterbender |
dirakx: too quick for me |
| 11:27 |
mchua |
thanks, dirakx! today appears to be my day to ask many stupid questions about SL groups. ;) |
| 11:28 |
|
so if an org wants to become a LL, is there a list of requirements somewhere, a list of benefits, a list of existing LLs (if we have any), a "here's a step-by-step process of what you'll have to do and how long it takes and what things you might need to have" thing? |
| 11:28 |
dirakx |
walterbender: ;). |
| 11:28 |
mchua |
(I'll move on from LL in a sec, since the other kinds of groups are more interesting to me right now) |
| 11:29 |
dirakx |
mchua: we still like documentation in that sense. |
| 11:29 |
walterbender |
mchua: there will be when you write it up :) |
| 11:29 |
dirakx |
s/like/lack |
| 11:29 |
|
is thinking that is a must to have a deployment meeting next week. |
| 11:30 |
mchua |
*grin* I'm glad to write it up, but I don't think I'm the one that should be making up the answers. |
| 11:30 |
walterbender |
mchua: tke a first pass |
| 11:30 |
mchua |
but I'll settle for one - if I'm an org that is interested in becoming a LL, what do I do to find out more / get started? |
| 11:31 |
|
an actual, formal, "I'm interested in possibly signing legal pieces of paper; you already know me and I already think SL is awesome." |
| 11:31 |
walterbender |
start with the link on the sidebar of the wiki |
| 11:31 |
dirakx |
wiki is a good start.. |
| 11:31 |
walterbender |
we need a "madlib" version of the MOU for people to fill in... |
| 11:31 |
dirakx |
and also mailist if thre are further questions. |
| 11:32 |
|
IAEP. |
| 11:32 |
mchua |
why is it required to be a legal entity? (I may have missed this discussion) |
| 11:33 |
walterbender |
mchua: not sure it is |
| 11:33 |
|
required |
| 11:33 |
|
but an MOU between SL and whom? what? |
| 11:33 |
|
there has to be an entity of some sort |
| 11:34 |
|
and that entity should have a governance model |
| 11:34 |
|
but I don't think it need to be incorporated in any formal sense |
| 11:35 |
dirakx |
i think that if this entity, manages services or contracts has to be legally conformed. |
| 11:36 |
walterbender |
dirakx: yes, but that is the other end of the relationshp. |
| 11:36 |
dirakx |
right. |
| 11:36 |
walterbender |
SL <--> LL can be with an informal group |
| 11:36 |
dirakx |
sure. |
| 11:36 |
mchua |
so for instance, the Olin College chapter, they've been around for a while, they're a club at the college, they're working on Sugar and a deployment, but they're not incorporated |
| 11:36 |
walterbender |
LL <--> services to the public may need be formalized |
| 11:36 |
mchua |
they could be a LL, just not sign a MOU |
| 11:37 |
|
though if you can be a LL without incorporation and signing an MOU, why would you want to sign an MOU? |
| 11:37 |
walterbender |
mchua: I think it would be best to sign an MOU |
| 11:37 |
mchua |
for all LLs, incorporated or not? |
| 11:37 |
walterbender |
yes |
| 11:38 |
|
an MOU, not the MOU |
| 11:38 |
mchua |
something different than the existing MOU, which is for legal entities? |
| 11:38 |
walterbender |
so we have some understanding of expectations... |
| 11:39 |
|
what we have is a draft and it is targeting legal entities... |
| 11:39 |
dirakx |
mchua: the MOU is just a beginning. |
| 11:39 |
mchua |
ok, I've been looking at what other projects do for non-legal-entity interest groups, and I can draft one up for SL |
| 11:39 |
walterbender |
maybe we need another document too |
| 11:39 |
mchua |
Okay. So what is the difference between the legal-entity-MOU and the interest-group-MOU? |
| 11:39 |
walterbender |
but having some level of understanding between the groups is important... |
| 11:40 |
dirakx |
walterbender: agree with that. |
| 11:40 |
mchua |
does SL actually deal with legal entities differently? what can they do for SL that non-incorporated groups can't? |
| 11:40 |
walterbender |
mchua: you tell me... |
| 11:40 |
dirakx |
is beneficial for both. |
| 11:40 |
mchua |
nods - understanding between groups is a good thing to establish |
| 11:40 |
walterbender |
as long as we agree on the principles, e.g., freedom, then we are cool. |
| 11:40 |
mchua |
walterbender, well, that's why I'm wondering why we want multiple MOUs at all. I can't see why an incorporated group would be any more useful to SL or any better at doing SL stuff than a non-incorporated group would. |
| 11:40 |
walterbender |
then the MOU can be quite simple |
| 11:41 |
mchua |
so it doesn't make sense to have two identical but separate interfaces for them, but I don't know a heck of a lot about legal stuff so I may be missing something. |
| 11:41 |
walterbender |
mchua: you may be correct... but SL needs to be sure that it is not liable for what the LLs do |
| 11:41 |
mchua |
ok, but why would that differ in the case of an incorporated or nonincorporated LL? |
| 11:41 |
|
either way, you want to be non-liable. |
| 11:42 |
dirakx |
the MOU is an statement of good faith between the parts. |
| 11:42 |
mchua |
(like I said, I'm asking a lot of stupid questions today. ;) I'm trying to get to the point where I don't have any more questions on this. |
| 11:42 |
dirakx |
np |
| 11:42 |
mchua |
does the MOU give SL the "we're not liable" coverage? |
| 11:42 |
walterbender |
mchua: yes. which is another reason we want an MOU, but as to why it needs to be different for differet types of groups, maybe it doesn't. |
| 11:43 |
mchua |
walterbender: who would know or be able to find out? |
| 11:43 |
walterbender |
mchua: you'd have to ask the lawyers... |
| 11:43 |
|
sfc |
| 11:43 |
|
they know |
| 11:43 |
mchua |
okeydokey. I'll shoot an email asking SLOBs (ccing iaep) to ask the sfc, then. |
| 11:44 |
walterbender |
any other LL questions? we have 16 minutes before the GSoC meeting |
| 11:44 |
mchua |
in the meantime - Mike Lee's group down in DC is wondering what kind of group they should call themselves / what kinds of interfaces for groups SL has. |
| 11:45 |
|
oh, plenty, http://sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mchua/Sandbox |
| 11:45 |
dirakx |
mchua: ok, that is the way to go to answer your questions more specifically. |
| 11:45 |
walterbender |
is not as good of a timekeeper as Mel |
| 11:45 |
mchua |
dirakx: they have pretty much all of the things listed on #4 for http://sugarlabs.org/go/User:Mchua/Sandbox, or a bunch of people that could easily become one |
| 11:48 |
dirakx |
mchua: it's worth to ask what pursuits does the different gruops have in relation to Sugar and Sugarlabs, |
| 11:48 |
|
what are it's expectations and so on. |
| 11:49 |
mchua |
I'm not sure I understand the question |
| 11:50 |
|
They're already meeting and doing things and planning Sugar-related projects, playing with SoaS, really excited about the possibility of Sugar deployments with netbooks |
| 11:51 |
|
they have no expectations of resources from SL, but wanted to know what resources were available, what sort of groups SL was looking for |
| 11:51 |
dirakx |
mchua: hmm ok. |
| 11:51 |
mchua |
(I think it's usually the organization that says "hey, you can have these kinds of interest groups, here's how!" rather than interest groups forming and going "so, you should make us official!") |
| 11:52 |
walterbender |
we do have some resources we could offer... |
| 11:52 |
mchua |
(OLPC and SL are just weird in that we have no interfaces for groups to participate yet groups have sprung up anyway.) |
| 11:52 |
walterbender |
mchua: irc is a participatory resource |
| 11:52 |
|
so is the wiki |
| 11:52 |
|
and are the mailing lists |
| 11:53 |
|
and Sugar itself... |
| 11:53 |
mchua |
yep, they're using all those already. |
| 11:53 |
walterbender |
obviously you had something very different in mind |
| 11:53 |
mchua |
do they have to do anything more to "become a real group in the eyes of SL?" |
| 11:53 |
|
sign an MOU? |
| 11:53 |
|
list themselves somewhere? |
| 11:54 |
walterbender |
I think they should have a mission statement and a rep to SL |
| 11:54 |
mchua |
I'll note that these questions come from a centralized mindset, so if these are silly questions to ask we should be making it clear to people that that's not how SL operates, since I think most people still assume central planning by default. ;) |
| 11:55 |
walterbender |
we can offer xyz.sugarlabs.org |
| 11:55 |
|
mchua: some things are centralized, but as few as possible |
| 11:55 |
dirakx |
mchua: i think that the status of real to the eyes of SL is given by meritocracy.. |
| 11:56 |
walterbender |
we have consensus around using #sugar-meeting, for example, but a lcal group need not... |
| 11:56 |
dirakx |
the group has to have somthings clear for starters, like a mission and so on. |
| 11:56 |
mchua |
walterbender, dirakx: thanks - I think I have enough to take a first plunge through the wiki pages now. |
| 11:57 |
|
Making up stuff happily as I go along. ;) |
| 11:57 |
dirakx |
and then a MOU would be in order. |
| 11:57 |
walterbender |
mchua: that is the nice thing about a wiki... easy to edit |
| 11:57 |
mchua |
I think by tomorrow I should have a "here's what I did! please edit/throw tomatoes!" email out to iaep. |
| 11:57 |
dirakx |
mchua: thanks for your questions, we are trying to do things the more distributed as possible. |
| 11:57 |
mchua |
wiki w00t! |
| 11:58 |
|
dirakx: I'm trying a hypothesis that centralized communication helps to decentralize action, in this case. ;) |
| 11:58 |
|
anyway, i'ts about time for homunq's gsoc meeting |
| 11:58 |
homunq |
OK... mchua, do you know how to run the bot? |
| 11:59 |
|
#startmeeting |
| 11:59 |
|
well um |
| 11:59 |
|
#endmeeting |
| 11:59 |
mchua |
homunq, just go ahead, I'll check what's up with the bot |
| 11:59 |
|
if it doesn't work, I'll post my logs |
| 11:59 |
walterbender |
mchua: if every LL used #sugar-meeting, for example, then it would be much easier to cross-pollinate ideas... but on to the next topic :) |
| 11:59 |
dantrix |
buenas dias |
| 11:59 |
walterbender |
ciao |
| 11:59 |
dantrix |
no me dijieron que era en ingles oopss |
| 12:00 |
homunq |
OK, this is the meeting for internal organization of Sugarlabs' GSoC application/process |
| 12:00 |
mchua |
homunq, it's spewing logs into http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]0090227_1200.html. wade didn't turn off the bot. but we can carry on. |
| 12:00 |
dantrix |
se va a traer el diccionarario de ingles |
| 12:00 |
walterbender |
isn't there a translation robot for en<==>es? |
| 12:01 |
homunq |
no sabe si hay un bot |
| 12:01 |
walterbender |
I'll go ask Hernan... |
| 12:01 |
homunq |
usa en2es bot.talk.google.com o algo así. |
| 12:01 |
|
pero solo en google... en IRC ha de haber uno |
| 12:01 |
|
OK sorry |
| 12:01 |
mchua |
https://fedorahosted.org/lingobot/ == bot, if someone wants to set it up quickly in the background, but yeah we should carry on. |
| 12:02 |
dantrix |
thanks |
| 12:02 |
mchua |
listens to homunq! |
| 12:02 |
homunq |
First item of business, mentors |
| 12:02 |
|
we need more, and we need to be clearer about what it involves |
| 12:02 |
|
have some way of evaluating if people are capable. |
| 12:03 |
|
The relevant page right now is http://sugarlabs.org/go/Summer_of_Code/Mentors |
| 12:03 |
walterbender |
from Hernan: walterbender, alguien en #olpc lo hizo y automaticamente se traducia en #olpc-es |
| 12:04 |
homunq |
My original proposal was 2 mentors per task |
| 12:04 |
|
I now think that is a bad idea |
| 12:04 |
|
but I do think that each person should be assigned a fallback mentor |
| 12:05 |
|
If for whatever reason a mentor disappears, the fallback mentor steps in |
| 12:05 |
mchua |
and we should have a "mentor pool" of "students, if you have questions and these people aren't around, look for these nicks on IRC, they've specifically said they want to help with gsoc project questions. |
| 12:05 |
homunq |
and if that means that they are spread too thin, they ask for help |
| 12:05 |
nteon_ |
mchua: that sounds like a good idea |
| 12:05 |
walterbender |
homunq: given that there are only five people signed up, don't we have bigger issues? |
| 12:05 |
homunq |
yes |
| 12:05 |
mchua |
also keep in mind that we're likely to get 1-2 funding slots via google this year. |
| 12:06 |
homunq |
I have posted a few calls for mentors |
| 12:06 |
mchua |
so it seems like we can pretty easily find 2 mentors. |
| 12:06 |
homunq |
mchua: where do you base that guess? |
| 12:06 |
|
I would have guessed 3-4 |
| 12:06 |
|
if we can swing a good application and mentor pool |
| 12:07 |
|
based on us "inheriting" a majority of OLPC's slots, as we've inherited most of their code |
| 12:07 |
yamaplos |
Remember the Canvas guy we saw in Contributors'? that sounded like an interesting project for GSoC |
| 12:07 |
homunq |
and a decent growth; last years' 4 slots, AFAIK, was limited by poor showing the previous year |
| 12:08 |
|
but this is all speculation |
| 12:08 |
dantrix |
byes |
| 12:08 |
mchua |
I think that there was an announcement sent out saying that because of the economy or somesuch, they were cutting back on slots this year... trying to dig it up |
| 12:08 |
yamaplos |
How could I help? I don't feel quite qualified as a mentor for /code/, unless it's a project that has usability as a main criterion |
| 12:08 |
homunq |
yamaplos: are you signed up as a mentor? |
| 12:09 |
mchua |
and that new organizations usually started out with 2 slots |
| 12:09 |
yamaplos |
not yet |
| 12:09 |
walterbender |
if we identify interesting projects and interesting mentors, whether or not we get funding almost doesn't matter |
| 12:09 |
yamaplos |
I guess I should... |
| 12:09 |
tomeu |
mchua: cannot piggy back on OLPC past record as was suggested by SJ? |
| 12:09 |
homunq |
yeah, they had I think 1250 last year and 1000 this year or so |
| 12:09 |
mchua |
yamaplos, I'd hang out and listen to the rest of this meeting first |
| 12:09 |
|
yamaplos, we're working out what people can do to help right now |
| 12:10 |
|
tomeu: for various reasons, I think that would be a bad idea |
| 12:10 |
homunq |
OK. So your expectations as a mentor: |
| 12:10 |
yamaplos |
sure! thanks - that was my intention, for once, to listen :-) |
| 12:10 |
homunq |
4 hours a week |
| 12:10 |
mchua |
tomeu: happy to discuss more on pm if you want, so we don't sidetrack this convo ;) |
| 12:10 |
tomeu |
nm, happy to leave this in more capable hands ;) |
| 12:10 |
homunq |
try your best to have a 24-hour turnaround or better. |
| 12:10 |
tomeu |
debugging AMO now |
| 12:11 |
homunq |
have "office hours" of at least 2 hours/week on IRC |
| 12:11 |
|
(that is part of your 4/week) |
| 12:12 |
walterbender |
homunq: I think we can offer almost instant turn-around in #sugar in addition to "office hours" |
| 12:12 |
homunq |
if you are a "backup" mentor, you should at least read the conversation for the project you're backing up for. |
| 12:13 |
walterbender |
there is a "third mentor", the community, as backup |
| 12:13 |
homunq |
walterbender: good point. |
| 12:13 |
|
Should |
| 12:14 |
|
"sugarlabs-gsoc" sign up as a contributor's program? Give xo's to all our students, permanently? |
| 12:14 |
|
(oops, off agenda) |
| 12:15 |
walterbender |
homunq: SoaS to all our students permnently !! |
| 12:15 |
mchua |
that's an interesting idea, and we can talk about it at the end, I think ;) |
| 12:15 |
walterbender |
has a sticky a key |
| 12:15 |
homunq |
Do we need to have an advanced policy of when to reject a mentor? I don't have real reservations about anybody signed up so far, nor do I think nooBs are likely to sign up. |
| 12:16 |
mchua |
mentors should generally have been active members of the SL dev community for... eh, a month or two? (rough guideline, not a requirement.) committed patches and such, been around IRC, on mailing lists. |
| 12:16 |
homunq |
OK, that's good enough. |
| 12:16 |
walterbender |
I think that rather than rejecting mentors, we should provide backup of know quantities as you suggested earlier. |
| 12:16 |
mchua |
Well, I don't think we need explicit guidelines, but some sort of "in general, we think these things make for a good mentor" guidelines like ^^ |
| 12:16 |
|
so we can calibrate expectations |
| 12:17 |
yamaplos |
rather than reject, others welcomed to apply as backup mentors.... |
| 12:17 |
homunq |
I'd say, more than a month or two. Three months? |
| 12:17 |
|
(as a suggestion) |
| 12:17 |
walterbender |
I think we just need to pair newbie mentors with people with roots in the community... |
| 12:17 |
yamaplos |
+1 |
| 12:17 |
homunq |
OK. |
| 12:17 |
mchua |
the more common case than "inexperienced person applying to mentor," I think, would be "experienced person who would make a great mentor thinking they're not good enough because they've only been around 3 months and maintain 2 Activities..." |
| 12:17 |
walterbender |
it is another way to open the door to more people |
| 12:18 |
homunq |
Who here will take the task of updating the wiki page with the results from here? |
| 12:18 |
mchua |
homunq: Yep. Whatever the suggestions end up being, there'll be suggestions. |
| 12:18 |
|
raises hand |
| 12:18 |
homunq |
OK, so be it |
| 12:18 |
|
mchua |
| 12:18 |
|
Next item of business? |
| 12:18 |
mchua |
I'm going to disappear after this meeting to do all my updates from the last 3 conversations. :) |
| 12:19 |
|
Projects? |
| 12:19 |
homunq |
yeah |
| 12:19 |
mchua |
I think that's the *biggest* shortage we have, actually. |
| 12:19 |
homunq |
the ? was "are we done", projects comes next for sure |
| 12:19 |
mchua |
ah, okay. I'm ready to move on to projects. |
| 12:20 |
walterbender |
homunq: can we suggest projects or do they come from the interns? |
| 12:20 |
|
homunq: there is plenty of interesting work to be done |
| 12:20 |
homunq |
walterbender: generally an org suggests a list of projects |
| 12:20 |
|
but then interns choose or invent their own |
| 12:20 |
|
the list is to give an idea |
| 12:21 |
walterbender |
have we compiled a list specifically for GSoC? |
| 12:21 |
|
homunq: there are lists all over the wiki |
| 12:22 |
homunq |
the gsoc page references http://sugarlabs.org/go/Develo[…]Team/ProjectIdeas and http://sugarlabs.org/go/Market[…]oadmap_brainstorm |
| 12:22 |
walterbender |
and tomeu, erikos, et al. could make many additional lists |
| 12:22 |
mchua |
we have a bunch of project ideas, but many of them are not very well explained (even if they're good ideas) |
| 12:22 |
homunq |
There are two things we need, separately |
| 12:22 |
|
long list of brainstorm |
| 12:23 |
mchua |
just like the "here's stuff that usually makes for a good mentor," we need a "here's stuff that usually makes for a good project proposal" |
| 12:23 |
homunq |
and more focused list of well-explained projects |
| 12:23 |
mchua |
and also "here are the areas we're most interested in seeing people work on" - which is actually a known and answered question |
| 12:23 |
|
(sort of) |
| 12:23 |
homunq |
well, I would not say known, but certainly not unexplored |
| 12:23 |
mchua |
when gregdek and I were talking about gsoc way, way back in... december or so, we put forth the idea of collaboration as a theme/focal point for this year's gsoc |
| 12:24 |
|
to force us to build up our collaboration infrastructure |
| 12:24 |
|
so it would be easy/possible for students to do meaningful work on it |
| 12:24 |
homunq |
OK, so, without doing people's work for them, we can: |
| 12:24 |
|
point to the GSoC application pages in OLPC for last year |
| 12:24 |
mchua |
(similar to how the first OLPC Game Jam in June 2007 forced the Sugar Activity framework to accelerate development) |
| 12:25 |
|
I already ported the SL-relevant project ideas from the OLPC wiki to http://sugarlabs.org/go/Develo[…]Team/ProjectIdeas |
| 12:25 |
homunq |
make a list of what we want most, why we want it, what overall skills and design choices we think are involved |
| 12:25 |
mchua |
(I'd actually like to not point to OLPC stuff as much as possible, at least this year for gsoc.) |
| 12:25 |
|
(but that's a Mel thing, and you can feel free to ignore it.) |
| 12:26 |
|
(In general, I'm a fan of both projects, and a fan of both organizations being distinct and as separate as possible.) |
| 12:26 |
homunq |
I think that we could ask last years' applicants specifically |
| 12:26 |
|
that is kosher |
| 12:27 |
|
if they say yes, we could actually copy the application to SL wiki. |
| 12:27 |
cjb |
ello |
| 12:27 |
|
(did you guys know that OLPC is doing gsoc again this year?) |
| 12:27 |
homunq |
(that is also a way to contact them, they may well make good applicants this year) |
| 12:27 |
cjb |
(talking in parentheses is fun) |
| 12:27 |
walterbender |
cjb: I did not know one way or another... |
| 12:27 |
homunq |
cjb: (yes but) |
| 12:28 |
|
(we'd love to hear you tell us more about it) |
| 12:28 |
walterbender |
cjb: what kinds of projects? |
| 12:28 |
|
cjb: we should try to compliment the efforts |
| 12:28 |
mchua |
hey cjb! is sj doing olpc's gsoc again this year? |
| 12:28 |
cjb |
walterbender: you can complement them too, but I won't say no to compliments :) |
| 12:28 |
cjl |
Those are nice efforts s/compliment/complement/ |
| 12:28 |
cjb |
mchua: yeah, that's right |
| 12:28 |
mchua |
realizes how many acronyms were in that sentence... |
| 12:29 |
walterbender |
cjl: i don't no how to spel |
| 12:30 |
cjb |
it's a shame SJ isn't around |
| 12:30 |
|
http://lists.laptop.org/piperm[…]ruary/023158.html is one of his mails about this |
| 12:31 |
walterbender |
cjb: for example, would OLPC be interested in focusing on the XS? |
| 12:31 |
cjb |
walterbender: certainly -- http://lists.laptop.org/piperm[…]ruary/023167.html |
| 12:32 |
walterbender |
cjb: that would be a great boost to everyone! |
| 12:33 |
cjb |
so there's definitely some interest in having gsoc interns work on the XS. I can't give a good answer about what else SJ has planned, though -- I'll try and catch him in the office and ask him to communicate that. |
| 12:33 |
homunq |
cjb: if someone came to OLPC with an application that was clearly sugar, with nothing XO-specific, would you send them to us? |
| 12:33 |
cjb |
of course! |
| 12:34 |
mchua |
I think the difficulty is in figuring out what projects are sl and which ones are olpc, but we should work that out on an app-by-app basis as we get them. |
| 12:34 |
cjb |
no worries there. I don't want to take Sugar interns at OLPC, it's not the right place for them. |
| 12:35 |
|
mchua: yeah, I think so. we should also coordinate the project ideas pages, though, since it's no good to have SL and OLPC ideas pages that both say the same thing |
| 12:35 |
homunq |
cjb: would there be many hard feelings if there were more slots for SL than OLPC this year? |
| 12:36 |
mchua |
Aye... I'll draft a "you might want to do a SL project if... you might want to do an OLPC project if..." thing, and then maybe we should send you and sj a list of sl's project apps once a good bunch have come in and ask "do you think any of these would be better off with olpc?" |
| 12:36 |
cjb |
homunq: absolutely not |
| 12:36 |
mchua |
er, cjb: ^^ |
| 12:36 |
cjb |
SL has, bluntly, more mentoring capacity than OLPC in my opinion |
| 12:36 |
homunq |
OK, cool |
| 12:36 |
walterbender |
mchua: we can ask Potter Stewart do tell us when a project is Sugar :) |
| 12:36 |
cjb |
mchua: yup, or even meet up in person after the app deadline and wade through both sets together |
| 12:37 |
mchua |
cjb: yay! that would be great, actually. |
| 12:37 |
homunq |
Should we be telling Google that we plan to do this in our respective applications? |
| 12:38 |
cjb |
we should send this log to SJ to make sure he's in the loop, too, since I don't think I'm going to be playing a big part in gsoc this year |
| 12:38 |
homunq |
I think it could only help us both, actually |
| 12:39 |
cjb |
homunq: sure. |
| 12:39 |
homunq |
OK, cjb, you don't have the authority to answer that. So I will take the task of following up that question with SJ, but I personally think it's a good idea. |
| 12:39 |
cjb |
great. |
| 12:39 |
homunq |
back to projects |
| 12:39 |
mchua |
homunq, google already knows; I've talked with leslie (who runs gsoc) about it. |
| 12:40 |
|
short version of response: "ok, cool, just make sure you guys get all your paperwork in on time." |
| 12:40 |
cjb |
:) |
| 12:40 |
walterbender |
mchua: and the deadline is? |
| 12:40 |
homunq |
mchua: so have I, about the general situation. I was talking specifically about the fact that we'll be coordinating specifically |
| 12:41 |
|
which, AFAIK, was first raised just now. |
| 12:41 |
|
walterbender: mar 9-13 for initial organization applications |
| 12:42 |
walterbender |
homunq: anything you need from SL to get that application in? |
| 12:42 |
homunq |
Um, that is item 3 in agenda |
| 12:42 |
walterbender |
homunq: I assume we are applying as SFC? |
| 12:42 |
homunq |
let's finish 2 first |
| 12:42 |
|
back to projects |
| 12:42 |
mchua |
walterbender: organization apps open this coming Monday. They're not due for some time after that, though due dates have not yet been announced. |
| 12:42 |
walterbender |
will be more patient |
| 12:43 |
mchua |
oh! due 13. okay then, yay homunq! |
| 12:43 |
|
er, yes. projects! |
| 12:43 |
homunq |
I think that everyone here can clean up one project on http://sugarlabs.org/go/Develo[…]Team/ProjectIdeas |
| 12:43 |
mchua |
I'll write up "this makes a good project description" suggestions |
| 12:44 |
homunq |
say: what it involves (design outline/choices, skills) and why it is important to SL |
| 12:44 |
dirakx |
just proposed a project ;)..for anyone that can take it. |
| 12:44 |
mchua |
and since this falls within the 0.86 release cycle, maybe we should be asking our wonderful release manager what the priorities for that are |
| 12:44 |
homunq |
2-4 shortish paragraphs each, I think. |
| 12:44 |
|
mchua: sure |
| 12:45 |
|
About the idea of contacting last years' applicants... |
| 12:45 |
|
I can go through the list on w.l.o and assign 2-3 to everyone here |
| 12:46 |
|
that would be mchua, walterbender, dirakx, yamaplos, ...? |
| 12:46 |
cjb |
homunq: have a chat with SJ about that |
| 12:46 |
mchua |
homunq: release manager == erikos |
| 12:46 |
homunq |
OK, I will ping sj first |
| 12:46 |
CanoeBerry |
Just added above link to http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Cont[…]utors_program#FAQ |
| 12:46 |
walterbender |
homunq: maybe contact the original posters (although we are personally responsible for many of the entries) |
| 12:46 |
mchua |
homunq: wait, contacting last year's applicants about what? |
| 12:47 |
homunq |
about whether we can use their applications as examples for this year in sl |
| 12:47 |
erikos |
mchua: ? priorities for 0.86? |
| 12:47 |
yamaplos |
I'm cool |
| 12:47 |
erikos |
mchua: those need still to be defined |
| 12:47 |
homunq |
(and as an excuse to remind them that it's happening again, in case they want to apply) |
| 12:48 |
|
erikos: process/timeline for definition? |
| 12:48 |
erikos |
homunq: normally ~6 months from now |
| 12:49 |
homunq |
6 months until we have priorities? |
| 12:49 |
erikos |
homunq: we talk about it in the dev meeting tomorrow |
| 12:49 |
|
homunq: nah until the next release |
| 12:49 |
homunq |
OK. If you can start talking priorities soon, we'd be happy |
| 12:50 |
|
I'll try to attend tomorrow. |
| 12:50 |
erikos |
ok |
| 12:50 |
homunq |
Next agenda: application |
| 12:50 |
erikos |
well tomorrow we will more decide on the process and what needs to happen |
| 12:50 |
homunq |
um. |
| 12:50 |
erikos |
but good to attend |
| 12:50 |
homunq |
erikos: OK |
| 12:51 |
|
Application is the big one. |
| 12:51 |
|
I do not want to carry this alone, but we really have to start working now. |
| 12:51 |
|
Can someone propose a division of labor? or some plan? |
| 12:52 |
|
hunts some links |
| 12:52 |
|
http://code.google.com/opensou[…]8250740394219425_ |
| 12:53 |
walterbender |
homunq: I can help with this |
| 12:53 |
homunq |
First question, who will be our primary/backup program admins officially? |
| 12:53 |
walterbender |
that is question #10 :) |
| 12:54 |
homunq |
I could do it, but I think walterbender / mchua would maybe be better |
| 12:54 |
mchua |
I'm currently the name on the list by default, and I'm happy to shoulder the admin burden. However, I'm equally happy to give it up to someone who would do a better job. |
| 12:54 |
homunq |
walterbender: your opinion? |
| 12:54 |
walterbender |
I raised the subject with Adam Hyde et al. |
| 12:55 |
dirakx |
wishes to help, but he preffers to do a project. |
| 12:55 |
|
or mentor one |
| 12:55 |
walterbender |
typed into the wrong window |
| 12:55 |
mchua |
homunq: if anyone needs to give permission, it's the development team, as gsoc is a project under its umbrella. |
| 12:55 |
walterbender |
if mchua is willing... |
| 12:55 |
mchua |
(so, marco. but he's already said, months ago, that I should do whatever I want with this, and I'm glad to pass that blessing on to everyone else.) |
| 12:56 |
homunq |
seconds mchua nom |
| 12:56 |
tomeu |
is happy when mchua does whatever she wants |
| 12:56 |
homunq |
I could be backup |
| 12:56 |
mchua |
homunq: I was about to propose the reverse arrangement, actually. :) |
| 12:57 |
homunq |
mchua: are you planning to mentor? |
| 12:57 |
mchua |
I'm unqualified to mentor code projects for SL, so not for gsoc. |
| 12:58 |
homunq |
I think the main admin should ideally not be a mentor, though that is not definite |
| 12:58 |
|
but that is why I prefer you as main admin. |
| 12:58 |
mchua |
homunq: oh - you want to be a code mentor? |
| 12:58 |
homunq |
not that I want to duck the tasks |
| 12:58 |
|
yes |
| 12:58 |
mchua |
ah, okay. then sure, I'll take it on. |
| 12:59 |
homunq |
espera ser mentor en español... |
| 12:59 |
mchua |
thanks for driving the bus today, homunq. |
| 12:59 |
|
ah, si, que es importante tambien. |
| 12:59 |
|
homunq, having you as backup will also help me a lot. |
| 12:59 |
homunq |
so walterbender implicitly suggested taking Google's questions in order |
| 13:00 |
mchua |
It's a good suggestion. |
| 13:00 |
homunq |
1 is pretty easy, get a blurb from marketingteam |
| 13:00 |
mchua |
(btw, gregdek and karsten from fedora both suggested a weekly gsoc meeting from now 'till the end of the project, which I think is a good idea.) |
| 13:00 |
homunq |
2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, all kinda easy. |
| 13:00 |
mchua |
has to leave soon |
| 13:01 |
homunq |
9, application template? |
| 13:01 |
walterbender |
homunq: why don't I tackle all of them as a draft this afternoon and then you can take a stab at fixing my errors |
| 13:01 |
homunq |
great |
| 13:01 |
mchua |
yay walterbender! |
| 13:01 |
homunq |
that sounds perfect |
| 13:01 |
|
cheers |
| 13:01 |
walterbender |
I'll post it to the wiki... |
| 13:01 |
homunq |
... and email with the link :) |
| 13:02 |
mchua |
sugar-devel and iaep, I'd say |
| 13:02 |
|
well, actually, no, just sugar-devel |
| 13:02 |
|
iaep announcement when we want a rush of mentors and projects and students |
| 13:02 |
|
later |
| 13:02 |
homunq |
OK. So, let's continue to drum up mentors. |
| 13:03 |
|
And I think that's it? |
| 13:03 |
|
meeting: #endmeeting |
| 13:03 |
|
sorry, jumped the gun |
| 13:03 |
walterbender |
just created http://sugarlabs.org/go/Summer[…]de/SL_application |
| 13:04 |
homunq |
anyone else have anything to say before we wrap up? |
| 13:05 |
mchua |
Yes. |
| 13:05 |
|
I want to set up a weekly meeting for gsoc as per gregdek's suggestion |
| 13:05 |
|
so I'll be putting up a meeting time poll to the mailing lists today as well. |
| 13:05 |
dirakx |
good idea |
| 13:05 |
mchua |
that's all. |
| 13:05 |
homunq |
homework is me: ping sj about coordination and poaching last year's applicants; mchua: fix up mentor page; walterbener:application; everyone: flesh out project ideas page and be ready to help poach. |
| 13:06 |
mchua |
sounds awesome. |
| 13:06 |
|
thank you so much, homunq! |
| 13:06 |
homunq |
mchua: also talk about applying to contributor's program? |
| 13:06 |
mchua |
(want me to post logs?) |
| 13:06 |
homunq |
mchua: yes please |
| 13:07 |
mchua |
homunq: ok, will do. if the meeting's over now, we can talk about applying to contrib program really quickly now, or in 40min when I'm at 1cc sitting next to adam holt (and don't have to immediately run anywhere) |
| 13:07 |
homunq |
dirakx: algo que deberíamos hacer con respeto a español? |
| 13:07 |
|
mchua: ok later |
| 13:07 |
dirakx |
homunq: hacer ping en las listas para buscar posibles interesados en projectos |
| 13:07 |
mchua |
homunq: ok. off to the train now, I'll be back and ping you when I'm at 1cc soon. |
| 13:07 |
dirakx |
y mentoring |
| 13:08 |
homunq |
dirakx: hoy hice un pingitito con respeto a mentoring |
| 13:08 |
dirakx |
hmm es cierto |
| 13:09 |
homunq |
y era contestando uno con respeto a proyectos |
| 13:09 |
dirakx |
hay varios interesados en uruguay por ejemplo |
| 13:09 |
homunq |
entonces por el momento estamos bien. Volverlo a hacer en una semana. |
| 13:09 |
dirakx |
bien |
| 13:09 |
homunq |
dirakx: qué bueno. |
| 13:09 |
|
OK, ya, done. |
| 13:10 |
|
I gotta go too. |
| 13:12 |
|
oh, walterbender, one thing... |
| 13:12 |
walterbender |
si |
| 13:12 |
homunq |
$ |
| 13:13 |
|
it is $4500 for each student, and $500 to the org for the mentoring. |
| 13:13 |
walterbender |
what about $s? |
| 13:13 |
|
to the org or to the menotrs? |
| 13:13 |
homunq |
that decision is up to the org |
| 13:14 |
cjb |
walterbender: it's to the org; the mentors are (must be?) unpaid |
| 13:14 |
|
I've never heard of an org paying its mentors |
| 13:14 |
homunq |
well, since some are direct employees, that is not quite true... |
| 13:14 |
walterbender |
ok... SL could use the money to sponsor travel between the mentor and mentee? |
| 13:15 |
|
the money should be dedicated to the needs of the mentor/mentee relationship in any case |
| 13:15 |
cjb |
walterbender: the money won't arrive until after the program has ended |
| 13:15 |
|
(a few months after, in fact) |
| 13:15 |
homunq |
Personally, I'd be happy to mentor for free. But, even happier if I got half that money. |
| 13:15 |
cjb |
so it cannot be used up front to fund activities during the program |
| 13:16 |
|
homunq: I'm still very dubious about this paid mentor idea; I've done GSOC as mentor and mentee several times, and this has never been the norm |
| 13:16 |
homunq |
I don't want to cause problems, just to raise the issue. |
| 13:16 |
walterbender |
then we should bank it to use next year in support of the glue around the program and find existing funds to do the same for this year... |
| 13:18 |
homunq |
OK, I'll drop it. Anyway, I think that walterbender is the one to think about how to use that money. |
| 13:18 |
cjb |
(certainly.) |
| 13:19 |
|
(well, we tend to vote on things like that, but yeah) |
| 13:19 |
homunq |
I'm kinda dubious about travel - from my perspective, the world is pretty big for $250 |
| 13:19 |
walterbender |
cjb: a good topic fro Friday's SLOBs meeting |
| 13:19 |
cjb |
walterbender: yup |
| 13:19 |
tomeu |
someone could see what other projects do? |
| 13:19 |
homunq |
sure, vote, but think about the options |
| 13:20 |
cjb |
tomeu: no project I've been a part of (GNOME, OLPC) has ever paid mentors |
| 13:20 |
homunq |
sorry $500 |
| 13:20 |
tomeu |
we could spend the money in soas sticks for a school local to the student :p |
| 13:20 |
walterbender |
and a lousy t-shirt :) |
| 13:20 |
tomeu |
or to the mentor, fwiw |
| 13:20 |
homunq |
GSoC already gives t-shirts |
| 13:20 |
|
:) |
| 13:21 |
walterbender |
so we could encourage the mentors to sell the t-shirts to SL for $500 :) |
| 13:21 |
homunq |
umm... great idea? |
| 13:22 |
|
For $300 and 100 SOAS sticks. |
| 13:24 |
|
OK. Peace out. |
| 13:24 |
tomeu |
$200, 100 soas sticks and a wonderful, branded umbrella |
| 13:24 |
cjb |
I guess one of the reasons here is that the student only gets paid if the mentor says they're doing well at each interval |
| 13:24 |
homunq |
aaah |
| 13:24 |
cjb |
and introducing money for the mentor creates a conflict of interest there |
| 13:24 |
homunq |
yeah |
| 13:24 |
|
definitely |
| 13:25 |
cjb |
we can still ask Leslie about it |
| 13:25 |
homunq |
Well, I personally am totally incorruptible. But yeah, for anyone else... |
| 13:25 |
|
:) |
| 13:25 |
user34u890 |
hi guys. how's it going? ;) |
| 13:26 |
homunq |
wonders if that's a real person... |
| 13:27 |
user34u890 |
user34u890 wonders if homunq is a real person |
| 13:27 |
tomeu |
that passes the turing test? |
| 13:28 |
homunq |
sure |
| 13:28 |
user34u890 |
@tomeu does it? |
| 13:28 |
tomeu |
I asked first ;) |
| 13:28 |
user34u890 |
@tomeu so what do you think about that? |
| 13:28 |
walterbender |
user34u890 AKA Eliza |
| 13:29 |
user34u890 |
@Eliza you know i love of thee |
| 13:29 |
walterbender |
thinks that if user34u890 were a real person, she'd use /me |
| 13:29 |
tomeu |
xobot: tell user34u890 hi |
| 13:29 |
xobot |
tomeu: okay |
| 13:29 |
user34u890 |
@walterbender *facepalms* |
| 13:29 |
xobot |
user34u890: by the way, tomeu told me to tell you 'hi' 10 seconds ago (on Wed Mar 4 20:28:52 2009) |
| 13:30 |
me |
o hai! |
| 13:31 |
cjl |
wonders when Endless September will end. . . |
| 13:34 |
Guest80908 |
@cjl what is: yawgan? |
| 13:34 |
cjl |
Guest80908: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September |
| 13:34 |
Guest80908 |
@cjl not cool :-/ ? |
| 13:35 |
tomeu |
wonders if Guest80908 is written in turtleart |
| 13:35 |
Guest80908 |
hang on, friendly friends in da haws yo ;) brb |
| 13:37 |
cjl |
tomeu: Unlikely, the XO can't hold that many bits of randomness in only 1GB of NAND |
| 13:38 |
Guest80908 |
@cjl agrees. |
| 13:38 |
tomeu |
yeah, we really had a lack of entropy in the xo :p |
| 13:38 |
Guest80908 |
so has anyone been able to figure out a truly random number generator or a quantum computer? |
| 13:40 |
cjl |
tomeu The idea of grabbing entropy from hard-drive spin variations never got much of anywhere on the XO :-) |
| 13:41 |
Guest80908 |
what is: spintronics? |
| 14:28 |
mchua |
homunq, still around? sorry about that; snow tends to throw my transit time out of whack. |
| 14:28 |
homunq |
sure |
| 14:30 |
|
mchua |
| 14:30 |
mchua |
homunq, you wanted to talk about giving gsoc students something as a "thank you" present, maybe XOs (and then walter mentioned SoaS as another option)? |
| 14:30 |
homunq |
yeah |
| 14:31 |
|
I think if we go through the contributors program, getting 1-6 xo's is probably pretty much a slam dunk. |
| 14:31 |
mchua |
aye. do we want to try for XOs, though, or something less OLPC-associated? |
| 14:31 |
homunq |
Then we could use a tiny bit of the $500 to sugarlabs to cover shipping |
| 14:31 |
mchua |
(also, gsoc students get paid reasonably well) |
| 14:32 |
homunq |
I think that a few SOAS would be good, but an XO is probably the biggest-ticket item we can get without actually paying for it |
| 14:32 |
mchua |
it might be more SL-ish if we gave them the means - supplies and support - to do a small sugar deployment near them so that they can see kids using the code they made |
| 14:32 |
|
"I got a laptop" vs "I got a deployment" |
| 14:32 |
homunq |
I don't think it's exclusive |
| 14:33 |
mchua |
for <5 students, I can commit to getting small pilots up near them |
| 14:33 |
|
SoaS pilots - send out 25 sticks, that'll be pretty cheap. |
| 14:33 |
|
some stickers, a shirt, something like that. |
| 14:33 |
|
less than $50 total in supplies and shipping. |
| 14:34 |
|
homunq, you're right, it's not exclusive at all |
| 14:34 |
homunq |
Are you actively opposed to including an XO in that box? |
| 14:34 |
mchua |
yes. |
| 14:34 |
|
Well, -0. |
| 14:34 |
homunq |
Hmmm. |
| 14:34 |
mchua |
I'm opposed to it; I think a non-XO box would be better, but if an XO goes into that box I won't fight it. |
| 14:34 |
|
Here's my reasoning. |
| 14:34 |
|
I love OLPC, I think the XO rocks, you know all that already. |
| 14:35 |
|
I think that right now, one of the best things we can do for both OLPC and SL is to differentiate them. |
| 14:35 |
|
They are two separate orgs, and it's good that they are; they focus on different things. Right now they're all mixed up together, though. |
| 14:35 |
|
And that leads to a lot of overhead for both orgs because stuff and people and projects keep shuffling back and forth. |
| 14:36 |
|
One way to differentiate is to have an iconic product associated with each. SL's product is Sugar; OLPC's product is the XO. |
| 14:36 |
|
One way SL has been differentiating itself has been through making SoaS, making Sugar run on non-XO platforms. |
| 14:37 |
walterbender |
homunq: mchua: I am almost done with a first pass at http://sugarlabs.org/go/Summer[…]de/SL_application |
| 14:37 |
mchua |
walterbender, you are magical. |
| 14:37 |
homunq |
OK. Compromise: let students self-organize a contrib-program app if they choose, and say Yes, We Support It if they do. |
| 14:37 |
|
:) |
| 14:38 |
mchua |
homunq: that sounds great to me - I'll try to put together a shiny present package that's wonderful enough that they won't feel deprived without an XO, too. |
| 14:38 |
homunq |
I agree with your logic, but still think that it is basically all upside if they end up with XOs somehow. |
| 14:38 |
mchua |
(if a gsoc student's project depends on them having an XO, then it's probably not a good sl gsoc project.) |
| 14:38 |
|
homunq, how's that? |
| 14:40 |
homunq |
unless the XO is a total broken time-sink, I think it will help motivate Sugar work. They will also feel Cool to get an actual computer out of this. |
| 14:40 |
|
but this is silly, I think we've already agreed, so stop trying to prove points. |
| 14:41 |
walterbender |
===What will you do to ensure that your accepted students stick with the project after GSoC concludes?=== |
| 14:41 |
|
The best we can do is infect the students with enthusiasm for our project's goals. We also plan to enable and encourage each student to launch a small pilot in a school in their community, thus investing them further in longer-term sustainability. |
| 14:42 |
mchua |
will keep trying to disassociate XOs and Sugar, or rather reposition XOs as "one of many platforms Sugar runs on," but homunq, I agree. I think we're set. |
| 14:43 |
walterbender |
hey, if OLPC is willing, we are able to put to good use any hardware that comes out way |
| 14:43 |
mchua |
walterbender: I'll go even more direct and say "we /will/ launch a small pilot near the student so they can directly see immediate results of children using their work," and I'll make sure that happens (and well within the $500/student SL will get from Google.) |
| 14:44 |
|
no additional commitment on the student's part required, but I bet most if not all of them will take us up on the offer. |
| 14:44 |
walterbender |
mchua: make the edits! |
| 14:48 |
mchua |
walterbender: edited |
| 14:49 |
walterbender |
mchua: maybe you can make the next pass through the text and then let homunq have a go at it... |
| 14:50 |
homunq |
will look at it tonight. |
| 14:58 |
mchua |
looking at it now |
| 15:01 |
|
walterbender, when was SL incorporated? (Month is fine, just trying to do a "Google, we didn't exist last summer" thing.) |
| 15:02 |
|
walterbender, I'm putting "fall 2008" for now, but that date might be off. |
| 15:14 |
cjl |
homunq I think you may be mistaken in thinking that Contributors Program laptops are intended to be permanent (at least under recent revisions of CP). Note on the new form http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Cont[…]ect_proposal_form that it is described as a loan and a specific length of the loan is a required element of the application. |
| 15:16 |
mchua |
in transit again... |
| 15:17 |
walterbender |
mchua: 2008-06-29 The Conservancy Board has provisionally approved Sugar's application to join the Conservancy... |