| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 12:13 | marcopg | nice |
| 12:13 | caroline | cool |
| 12:14 | marcopg | yeah let me paste the agenda |
| 12:14 | * Build system setup and infrastructure. | |
| 12:14 | * Release announcement and changelogs. | |
| 12:14 | * Activities packaging. | |
| 12:14 | * Custom repositories. | |
| 12:14 | * File system layout and customization. | |
| 12:14 | * Testing. | |
| 12:14 | * TODO. | |
| 12:14 | let's start from build system | |
| 12:14 | we currently have two streams of Soas | |
| 12:14 | one based on Fedora 10 (soas-1) | |
| 12:14 | another based on Fedora 11 (soas-2) | |
| 12:15 | we can build soas-1 on sugarlabs1 just fine I think | |
| 12:15 | or are there any problems with that box, erikos? | |
| 12:15 | can we build xo images on it= | |
| 12:15 | ? | |
| 12:15 | BigOrangeSU | Why do we need to have two? Can't we just transition to one, and continue to port it to the new versions of Fedora as they are released? |
| 12:15 | erikos | marcopg: have not done any xo images |
| 12:16 | marcopg | BigOrangeSU: that's a point I want to discuss actually and it's not in the agenda, let's add it just after this infra discussion |
| 12:16 | erikos: we need to make sure that we can build them I think | |
| 12:17 | erikos: want to take that as an action item? ;) | |
| 12:17 | erikos | marcopg: actually, i think no |
| 12:17 | marcopg: i mean i don't want to take it as an action item | |
| 12:17 | caroline | BigOrangeSU - speaking in my customer role, what effect will it have on my timeframe of having working sticks if we moved to just Fedora 11? |
| 12:18 | marcopg | erikos: fair enough, then no xo images unless someone step up to do that work |
| 12:18 | (which is pretty bad because it reduces a lot the amount of testing we get, but ok) | |
| 12:18 | erikos | marcopg: yup - as hard as it may sound, but i have no time for that :/ |
| 12:19 | caroline | why do we want XO images? in what way to they help the project? |
| 12:19 | marcopg | caroline: they get us more testing |
| 12:19 | caroline | An XO image is a stick that could boot an XO to sugar right? |
| 12:19 | marcopg | caroline: gary for example can only test on the XO |
| 12:19 | caroline | so the value is people who only have XOs can test with them. |
| 12:19 | marcopg | caroline: no it's a normal XO image that you can install on the nand |
| 12:19 | cjb | (hi all) |
| 12:19 | marcopg | hi cjb |
| 12:20 | sdziallas__ | hates being kicked out of the internet |
| 12:20 | <sdziallas_> caroline: having it really usable... would be probably possible with beta release of F11 - which is afaik somewhere in the end of March. | |
| 12:20 | erikos | marcopg: maybe people should invest on making F11 run on the xo? |
| 12:20 | tomeu | end of march still? wow |
| 12:20 | we froze sugar too early | |
| 12:20 | marcopg | erikos: you mean plain F11 or soas-2? |
| 12:20 | tomeu | or we put too little bugs on the new code |
| 12:20 | erikos | marcopg: plain F11 |
| 12:21 | caroline | ok, so we need to keep going on F10 for a good while. We have people who could be using SoaS with kids before the end of March. |
| 12:21 | marcopg | erikos: I guess that's a question for cjb ;) |
| 12:21 | cjb | they certainly should, and in fact they are :) |
| 12:21 | sdziallas__ | https://fedoraproject.org/wiki[…]eases/11/Schedule - 2009/03/24 |
| 12:21 | caroline | are we working with F11 too early? Shoudl we wait and focus on F10 for anotehr 4 weeks? |
| 12:21 | marcopg | erikos: I don't know if/who is interested in maintaining a stream of F11 + sugar |
| 12:21 | BigOrangeSU | What is the benefit/drawbacks of running SOAS on F11 vs F10? |
| 12:21 | erikos | marcopg: why a stream - 0.84 is in F11 |
| 12:22 | marcopg | let's close the discussion about xo images |
| 12:22 | then we can move to F10 vs F11 | |
| 12:22 | caroline | ok |
| 12:22 | marcopg | erikos: you still need to maintain a ks at best |
| 12:22 | erikos: and a build system to generate images | |
| 12:22 | cjb | so, OLPC isn't doing software releases any more, the way it used to |
| 12:22 | caroline | XO image seems like a nice to have but it needs an owner. Is that a statement anyone agrees with? |
| 12:23 | marcopg | caroline: yup, that's pretty much my opinion |
| 12:23 | sdziallas__ | caroline: exactly. |
| 12:23 | erikos | marcopg: ok - about the images - i mean i am happy if someone is doing it |
| 12:23 | cjb | as a result, probably the best way to get Sugar actually used by people with XOs is to have F10/F11 builds with Sugar in |
| 12:23 | marcopg | I *might* be able to help out maintaning it, but only in 2-3 weeks from now |
| 12:23 | cjb | I don't mind what it gets called; at the moment, I'm working on an F11+Sugar build for the XO |
| 12:23 | caroline | ok so why don't we post a help wanted on the list and on the SoaS wiki page and let it slide till someone steps. up. |
| 12:23 | Marco, I feel like we have more pressing priorities for you. | |
| 12:24 | sdziallas__ | could try to help, but isn't sure |
| 12:24 | caroline | I don't feel like the XO image is a great return on investment this month. |
| 12:24 | marcopg | cjb: ok so I guess you are the owner we are looking for :) |
| 12:24 | caroline | although its certainly something it woudl be great to have. |
| 12:24 | erikos | sdziallas: we need you for the general SoaS, i presume |
| 12:24 | marcopg | cjb: we could reuse the bits of soas infra and just use an olpc ks |
| 12:24 | erikos | sdziallas: and the edu spin of course ;) |
| 12:24 | sdziallas__ | erikos: :) |
| 12:24 | caroline | ok if cjb feels passionately about it and its your top priority of how you want to contribute then go for it. |
| 12:25 | marcopg | ok, let's move back to Soas |
| 12:25 | we can talk more about xo images off-meeting | |
| 12:25 | so F10 vs F11 | |
| 12:25 | cjb | marcopg: yeah, that's the sort of thing. |
| 12:25 | caroline | My top priority for the next 2 months is getting somethign that we can use at conferences and we can take into classrooms for short couple hour lessons. |
| 12:25 | marcopg | F11 is quite unstable these days |
| 12:26 | sdziallas__ | marcopg: oh, yeah. it is really. |
| 12:26 | caroline | just to make my bias completely clear |
| 12:26 | marcopg | on the other hand, we can make some kind of changes only in F11 |
| 12:26 | sdziallas__ | caroline: two months is doable, imo. |
| 12:26 | marcopg | unless we use F10 |
| 12:26 | and do a lot of custom packages | |
| 12:26 | caroline | sdziallas, people are trying to use it today, I want to spend the next 2 months making it into a good experience. |
| 12:26 | marcopg | which I doubt is sustainable right now |
| 12:27 | caroline: it's tricky because working more closely with Fedora life cycle will certainly slow down things a bit | |
| 12:27 | sdziallas | caroline: probably we could just continue to maintain both, and once F11 approaches a more or less stable stage, drop soas-1 |
| 12:27 | marcopg | caroline: but I don't feel like we have the resources to maintain our Fedora fork |
| 12:27 | caroline | right, and now is when we are getting press and funders are looking. |
| 12:27 | sdziallas | marcopg: which is also the reason why we're not calling it Fedora ;) |
| 12:28 | walterbender | it seems that we have two bits (F10sF11) and (0.82 vs 0.84) |
| 12:28 | marcopg | sdziallas yeah but maintaning two streams is sort of confusing/time consuming |
| 12:29 | walterbender: not quite | |
| 12:29 | sdziallas | marcopg: I'm not saying we should do this for a long time, maybe just for the next month... |
| 12:29 | marcopg | walterbender: soas-1 is F10 + 0.84 |
| 12:29 | sdziallas | marcopg: but since we've also 0.84 in F10 with the additional repo... mh! |
| 12:30 | walterbender | I was going to suggest that is the optimal quadrant to work in for the moment... |
| 12:30 | caroline | What would the agile programing team do? |
| 12:30 | marcopg | if we can get two maintainers for the two streams maybe it could work out fine |
| 12:30 | walterbender | unless it demoralizes the F11 community |
| 12:30 | sdziallas | thinks that it doesn't make sense to go with F11-only for *now* |
| 12:30 | marcopg | proposes erikos maintains soas-1 and sdziallas soas-2 |
| 12:30 | walterbender | if they are both willing... |
| 12:31 | caroline | lets discuss that vs dropping F11 for 4 weeks then pcikign it back up. |
| 12:31 | erikos | marcopg: which brings us to the question what maintaining means |
| 12:31 | marcopg | walterbender: I don't think it would demoralize them but... it means a lot of custom packages |
| 12:31 | walterbender: -> maint cost | |
| 12:31 | sdziallas | asks erikos about his opinion and nods |
| 12:31 | caroline | I'm not saying that is what I think we shoudl do, I just want to hear the pluses and minues. |
| 12:31 | erikos | i have been thinking about the general role for Sugar Labs regarding SoaS lately |
| 12:31 | marcopg | erikos: I think it means doing what you have been doing in the last couple of weeks :) |
| 12:31 | fix distro issues | |
| 12:31 | run builds | |
| 12:31 | document/announce them | |
| 12:32 | erikos | so the thing is - is that really Sugar Labs work? |
| 12:32 | marcopg | no Soas is *not* SL work |
| 12:32 | I think we should aim to make it a completely independent project | |
| 12:32 | erikos | right - but it looks like to most of the people |
| 12:33 | marcopg | I know |
| 12:33 | it's tricky | |
| 12:33 | because it's our only product | |
| 12:33 | erikos | yes - starting from getting an own tracker for example |
| 12:33 | marcopg: yes i know :) | |
| 12:33 | marcopg | curious about caroline opinion about that (and walterbender) |
| 12:33 | caroline | I was hoping that we wuld get to teh point where most of the bugs people expeience using SoaS will be bugs in applications. |
| 12:34 | erikos | marcopg: for example branding usb sticks with SoaS and promoting it as Sugar Labs work is dangerous |
| 12:34 | walterbender | I see it as much the same as working with a distro in terms of bug-tracking... |
| 12:34 | caroline | erikos..say more about that |
| 12:34 | marcopg | walterbender: caroline I guess my main question is... is SoaS a SL product? |
| 12:35 | cjb | caroline: sure; the bias is fine. someone else needs to work on a way to get XOs running 0.84, though :) |
| 12:35 | erikos | caroline: well it is a marketing issue |
| 12:35 | walterbender | I don't think SL has products other than Sugar itself... |
| 12:35 | erikos | caroline: and a support one |
| 12:35 | cjb | I guess we run into this tension a lot |
| 12:35 | walterbender | we work up and downstream to help people package it |
| 12:35 | cjb | do we exist to write software in a vacuum, or to get it deployed too? |
| 12:36 | BigOrangeSU | Doesn't sugar labs also have a live cd? as a product? |
| 12:36 | marcopg | walterbender: with Sugar not being a real product |
| 12:36 | walterbender | into their products |
| 12:36 | erikos | cjb: yeah it is hard :/ |
| 12:36 | cjb | I guess GNOME has worked it out, so there's hope |
| 12:36 | marcopg | BigOrangeSU: none of these are supposed to be SL products atm I think |
| 12:36 | walterbender | I think that part of our SL responsibility is to work with the people who make products |
| 12:36 | erikos | cjb: i think you can only work it out with clear separation |
| 12:36 | walterbender | so I think of SoaS as a product... actually, there will be many such products... |
| 12:37 | erikos | walterbender: absolutely |
| 12:37 | cjb | erikos: that sounds right |
| 12:37 | marcopg | there seem to be agreement on the fact that SoaS should be quite independent from SL |
| 12:37 | caroline | as of right now I have no budget for SoaS or the Gardner deployment. |
| 12:37 | walterbender | at least a Fedora and Ubuntu version in the short term |
| 12:37 | tomeu | sugar is a product consumed by deployers, distros, etc |
| 12:37 | those people do products consumed by users | |
| 12:37 | erikos | caroline: i think we can work out independence without a budget |
| 12:37 | marcopg | tomeu: yeah I'm using product only in the user sense, to avoid confusion |
| 12:38 | tomeu | so I guess we don't have a product in that sense, yeah |
| 12:38 | erikos | caroline: the important part is that we are clear about it - how we announce and promote it |
| 12:38 | marcopg | I think the SoaS deployment team should be in charge of doing SoaS |
| 12:38 | walterbender | Maybe SL should help ensure that team exists... |
| 12:38 | marcopg | but we need people like me and erikos if nothing else to boostrap things |
| 12:39 | erikos | marcopg: yes |
| 12:39 | see it like that - we have been looking for opertunities for devs to get paid as well - soas could be one | |
| 12:39 | as it works out well to provide services etc | |
| 12:39 | tomeu | they day that everything that is being bootstrapped gets finally bootstrapped, SLs is going to fly |
| 12:39 | marcopg | yeah all the user facing products are opportunities to get funds |
| 12:40 | caroline: does setting up SoaS as something quite independent from SL make sense to you? | |
| 12:40 | caroline | no not really |
| 12:40 | tomeu | well, even if SLs decide to not do any user products, we still need to agree that if sugar doesn't get actually used, we don't have a reason to exist |
| 12:40 | erikos | i would argue - that it will even speed up things - making it independant |
| 12:41 | caroline: happy to hear your thoughts :) | |
| 12:41 | marcopg | caroline: why not? (I have doubts myself, just trying to understand) |
| 12:41 | caroline | I'm not really understanding your concerns and why you want the separation. |
| 12:41 | For marketing, it seems to be the best thing that has happened to Sugar marketing. | |
| 12:41 | marcopg | caroline: one of the points for the separation is that there are many sugar distributions |
| 12:42 | walterbender | In some sense, since it is currently all the same people, it almost makes no difference in terms of work load... but what will attract more help and resources? and help the exsiting people sustain themselves? |
| 12:42 | caroline | For branding it seems totally confusing to try to present everythign as separate. |
| 12:42 | marcopg | caroline: if one of them is closely related to SL, the others will feel as second citizens |
| 12:42 | caroline | In terms of getting a real pilot done, without SL support there is no pilot. |
| 12:42 | tomeu | caroline: I'm concerned if we try a working model of which we don't have successful examples from which to learn |
| 12:42 | marcopg | tomeu: I suspect there is no successful model for what we are trying to do |
| 12:42 | tomeu | see GNOME Mobile, it's a product from the GNOME foundation, but GNOME itself doesn't do images or anything installable |
| 12:43 | walterbender | I think that SL is committed to SoaS, just as we are committed to Sugar on Fedora |
| 12:43 | tomeu | marcopg: there are soas equivalents in the gnome mobile world |
| 12:43 | intel does their own, canonical theirs, etc | |
| 12:43 | caroline: those gnome mobile-based products still use the gnome brand | |
| 12:43 | marcopg | tomeu: GNOME does not have deployments, I think that makes a big difference. We are working on software which is targeted to a niche of users, not to a bunch of developers |
| 12:43 | hpachas-PE | walterbender, pero la intensión de colocar sugar en los mobiless aun sigue en pie? |
| 12:43 | tomeu | marcopg: gnome has deployments |
| 12:44 | marcopg: it's used in schools, in gov. departments, companies, etc | |
| 12:44 | marcopg | tomeu: yeah but they are a very small part of their user base |
| 12:44 | caroline | I gues I also don't see why we want to separate SL from the deployments in general. |
| 12:44 | marcopg | for Sugar deployments are the *only* user base |
| 12:44 | tomeu | marcopg: don't see how that makes a difference |
| 12:44 | walterbender | hpachas-PE: si, but someone(s) need to take on the project |
| 12:45 | tomeu | we need to take care of deployments needs, just like gnome or kde need to take care of their users |
| 12:45 | walterbender | maybe USMP? |
| 12:45 | caroline | I feel like there is already too much separate and confusing, we should all be trying to come together not separate more. |
| 12:45 | hpachas-PE | walterbender, si,suena un buen proyecto |
| 12:45 | walterbender | caroline: I don't see this as separation... |
| 12:45 | hpachas-PE | walterbender, que elementos son necesarios para ejecutarlo? |
| 12:45 | caroline | ok, I am actually really confused as to what is being proposed here. |
| 12:46 | tomeu | caroline: I actually see that if we follow a well known model, we are going to remove confusion |
| 12:46 | caroline | tomeu not well known to anyone in education and they are the ones making the adopt Sugar or Adopt something else decision. |
| 12:47 | marcopg | yeah that's a fair point |
| 12:47 | erikos | caroline: is Sugar on Ubuntu a product of SL? I think that SoaS is something similar |
| 12:47 | caroline: that is the argument i guess | |
| 12:47 | caroline | what does it mean to be a "product of SL" |
| 12:47 | tomeu | I'm quite a bit worried about how people expect SLs to do everything that OLPC tried and failed |
| 12:47 | marcopg | erikos: Sugar on ubuntu has probably no users :) |
| 12:47 | erikos | caroline: support |
| 12:47 | tomeu | I see how people would want that, but I don't see how we are going to succeed |
| 12:47 | caroline | why does it mean that? |
| 12:48 | marcopg | actually I would argue that Sugar on Ubuntu is not a product |
| 12:48 | walterbender | marcopg: give it time... |
| 12:48 | marcopg | same as Sugar on Fedora (not a distro war :P) |
| 12:48 | caroline | I think we need to create an open space for for profit red hat model companies to provide paid support. But we can't expect that without a user base that has money. |
| 12:49 | tomeu | caroline: if SLs take care of some deployments, other partners with their own deployments might not feel they are giving equal opportunities inside SL |
| 12:49 | walterbender | some of the netbook vendors are more likely to adopt Sugar on Ubuntu... |
| 12:49 | caroline | if we go around making proclimations about how this or that is NOT a product of SL that is not gong to help adoption. |
| 12:49 | marcopg | walterbender: maybe... I tend to think efforts like Soas will get us more users than traditional distros |
| 12:49 | walterbender | because they already have Ubuntu support... |
| 12:49 | caroline | we could state that SL does not provide official support. |
| 12:49 | tomeu | right now, fedora is better supported because SLs devs are working directly on that |
| 12:49 | walterbender | Same with Mandriva... |
| 12:49 | Caixa Magica | |
| 12:49 | But as Tomeu suggests, Fedora support is more mature | |
| 12:49 | hpachas-PE | walterbender, he escuchado que sobre ubuntu no esta funcionando bien |
| 12:50 | marcopg | tomeu: I'm not talking about the specific distro |
| 12:50 | the big difference | |
| 12:50 | hpachas-PE | walterbender, no lo he probado, |
| 12:50 | tomeu | hpachas-PE: si, la proxima version tendra mucho mejor soporte |
| 12:50 | walterbender | and the 3rd parties would have to contribute in kind support the way Fedora/RH has... |
| 12:50 | tomeu | ubuntu intrepid salio con bastante mal sugar |
| 12:50 | marcopg | is that Fedora or Ubuntu gets a *bunch* of users by just uploading a live image on the net |
| 12:50 | erikos | see support question by hpachas-PE :))) |
| 12:50 | marcopg | because it's targeted to developers |
| 12:50 | caroline | being clear on maturity, expectations about support etc. makes sense, disowning things seems damaging to our branding and marketing. |
| 12:50 | marcopg | in the Sugar case we need to go through some kind of deployed product |
| 12:50 | like it can be Soas | |
| 12:51 | hpachas-PE | fedora esta trabajndo mucho para F11 enbebido con sugar |
| 12:51 | marcopg | or Caixa Magica |
| 12:51 | or... | |
| 12:51 | we won't get users from the developers and linux enthusiast community | |
| 12:51 | because they are not our main target | |
| 12:51 | walterbender | I think we need to be saying, if you want SoaS, the Fedora version is most mature... but try the Ubuntu if you want... |
| 12:51 | marcopg | (and anyway *very* resistent to move away from a traditional desktop) |
| 12:51 | hpachas-PE | o cualquier otra distribución.. |
| 12:52 | caroline | I dont; think SL should be promising anyone support. |
| 12:52 | hpachas-PE | quizas por que no hacer que sugar pueda instalarse en cualquier distro. |
| 12:52 | marcopg | walterbender: I actually find it very confusing that there is a Fedora soas and a Ubuntu one |
| 12:52 | caroline | but that Sugar on all platforms and Sugar everywhere is part of what SL is. |
| 12:52 | hpachas-PE | que sea una opción de escritorio.. asi como kde- gnome- sugar |
| 12:53 | marcopg | caroline: right, but does that imply that SL should be developing Soas? |
| 12:53 | sdziallas | has to run in 5 minutes :/ |
| 12:53 | caroline | anything else seems very confusing to me. |
| 12:53 | marcopg | sdziallas: I guess we can have a more technical meeting later :/ |
| 12:53 | sdziallas: or I'll send mail | |
| 12:53 | erikos | sdziallas: oh - now as it gets interesting ;p |
| 12:53 | caroline | are we going to go make another agreement with SFC? |
| 12:53 | sdziallas | has been following this discussion and is really unsure |
| 12:53 | erikos: ;) | |
| 12:54 | marcopg | caroline: but SL should then develop SoaS and a distro for say, the eepc etc? |
| 12:54 | walterbender | marcogp: we cannot (should not) prevent other distros from making SoaS... |
| 12:54 | caroline | yes, if we have volunteers who want to do it. |
| 12:54 | marcopg | walterbender: I just think it's confusing to have them share the same product |
| 12:54 | sdziallas | I think the will be always a connection between SL and SoaS. Sure thing. But it depends on what you really want to have. You can either make SoaS (Fedora-based) *the* official thing. |
| 12:54 | marcopg | walterbender: it seem to me it should be branded differently |
| 12:54 | caroline | if we had a group of peopel who want to work on eepc then they should under SL. |
| 12:54 | sdziallas | Or you can seperate it and encourage others more and more to create things like SoaS. |
| 12:55 | walterbender | SoaS is a lousy name to begin with... |
| 12:55 | sdziallas | But imo, we're in a somewhat early stage, so I'm really... not sure |
| 12:55 | walterbender: lollipop :) | |
| 12:55 | marcopg: okay... I'll just try to catch everybody later on IRC | |
| 12:55 | erikos | sdziallas: encourage others is an important part i think |
| 12:56 | marcopg | caroline: hm, some of these distributions will be developed by entities which doesn't have interest to be under the SL umbrella |
| 12:56 | walterbender | I think the different distros underneath will be branded differently... |
| 12:56 | marcopg | or better under the SL brand |
| 12:56 | walterbender | just as Sugar on the OLPC hardware is branded as OLPC, not Sugar |
| 12:56 | sdziallas | erikos: probably, yeah, if you want to spread it more and more, yes. |
| 12:57 | caroline | marco, its freedom, they can work together or separately. But I think the more we are together the better. |
| 12:57 | tomeu | if there's a team in SLs maintaining sugar, and another team in SLs maintaining sugar on eeepc, does that create the right environment to encourage an external group to maintain sugar on gdium? |
| 12:57 | sdziallas | erikos: btw, I commited newer ks files to the soas-1 branch, but left the other ones there, so that you can have a look at 'em... |
| 12:57 | erikos | walterbender: only when it comes to bashing it is called Sugar :) |
| 12:57 | sdziallas: cool - thanks | |
| 12:57 | tomeu | heh |
| 12:57 | sdziallas | is out, so see you folks ;) ttfn. |
| 12:57 | marcopg | caroline: yeah trying to understand if branding one or more of these products as SL will make it more difficult to work with entities which doesn't want their product branded |
| 12:58 | maybe this whole discussion is more appropriate for a marketing team or slobs meeting | |
| 12:58 | caroline | hmm I dont really see why. I think we want to encourage people to work as close to SL as they can, but accept that some won't. |
| 12:58 | walterbender | all that said, I would love to see a group put a real effort behind a single distro, since solid release of SoaS that SL can use as a reference... |
| 12:59 | marcopg | I suggest that we backup and go back to technical planning for a bit :) |
| 12:59 | walterbender | +1 |
| 12:59 | caroline | certainly my goal is to create a $ source that could sustain a SoaS deployment company. But it could well be 1.5 years till that is feasible. |
| 13:00 | marcopg | erikos: what's your opinion about F11 vs F10? |
| 13:00 | I see caroline point | |
| 13:00 | but I'm really scared to have to rebuild stuff like libabiword | |
| 13:00 | or evince | |
| 13:00 | it will be a lot of duplicated work | |
| 13:00 | caroline | for the next few months a really good experience available via a USB stick is a very good move for Sugar LAbs long term interests. |
| 13:01 | erikos | walterbender: i know that we need a reference |
| 13:01 | marcopg | and we currently don't have a lot of resources to devote to distro work |
| 13:01 | tomeu | caroline++ |
| 13:01 | erikos | marcopg: hmm, i am a bit biased - does f11 on a stick boot? |
| 13:01 | marcopg | erikos: yeah, at least the last time I tried |
| 13:01 | but on my thinkpad | |
| 13:02 | exp with other hardware might be worst | |
| 13:02 | cjb | erikos: if it doesn't work with Sugar and you ignore it, though, it means you're not going to get an F11 Sugar |
| 13:02 | caroline | fwiw, I am working on a business plan and will look for investment. But we need to plan for a complete bootstrap given the economic climate etc. |
| 13:02 | erikos | cjb: you mean we should better now put all the energy in f11, right? |
| 13:02 | tomeu | I guess we all agree on bootstrapping whatever it takes to get there, regardless of our opinions on longer term strategy |
| 13:03 | marcopg | tomeu: yeah |
| 13:03 | cjb | erikos: not necessarily all, but at least some |
| 13:03 | erikos | cjb: yeah |
| 13:03 | marcopg: how about the following | |
| 13:03 | tomeu | I'm testing on 4 distros, coding php, etc because of that |
| 13:03 | would prefer to just code sugar, though | |
| 13:03 | erikos | marcopg: soas1 - will live until Sugar 0.84 is out - after that - we only work on soas-2 |
| 13:04 | marcopg | tomeu: we need to figure out how to let a couple of people just code sugar :( |
| 13:04 | tomeu | yeah |
| 13:04 | erikos | marcopg: heh that is currently the main problem to me |
| 13:04 | marcopg | erikos: are we going to do the libabiword/libevince work on soas-1? |
| 13:04 | walterbender | to get there, other people have to do the upstream work... |
| 13:04 | marcopg | that's my main question I guess |
| 13:04 | erikos | marcopg: if sugar sucks we don't evenneed to talk about soas |
| 13:04 | marcopg | for caroline too |
| 13:04 | tomeu | and we need also to have time to think about managing the coding work |
| 13:04 | walterbender | to get them to do it, they have to be excited and see the possibilities... |
| 13:04 | cjb | it seems like we already have a pretty good separation |
| 13:05 | walterbender | so we have to go where they are |
| 13:05 | erikos | marcopg: yeah, nasty question |
| 13:05 | cjb | for example, Sebastian/Peter/I are working on integrating Sugar with F11 |
| 13:05 | walterbender | which means php, yuck |
| 13:05 | cjb | we're not working on Sugar code itself |
| 13:05 | marcopg | caroline: how soon do you need a working soas? :) with many activities etc |
| 13:05 | caroline | We needed it for last week when teh PR came out :) |
| 13:06 | erikos | marcopg: maybe we should just ditch soas-1 |
| 13:06 | caroline | people are looking and judging Sugar on it now. |
| 13:06 | walterbender | marcopg: without abiword and evince, it is not very useful in the classroom... |
| 13:06 | marcopg | walterbender: right, so we either do the forks on F10 or we just drop soas-1 |
| 13:07 | caroline | I'm tempted to fork and make the bet that by puttng out a better product sooner we can attact developers/ and/or money. |
| 13:07 | marcopg | so fedora final is 2009-05-26 |
| 13:07 | caroline | if we lose that bet I'm ot sure we can make the deadline for the fall pilot anyhow. |
| 13:08 | marcopg | caroline: that means that SL needs to invest a bunch of time into SoaS though |
| 13:08 | caroline | right, so its clearly not only my decision. |
| 13:08 | marcopg | i.e. a good fraction of erikos and my time will have to go into distro work |
| 13:08 | instead of sugar coding | |
| 13:08 | caroline | but the bet I am talking about is about betting on getting resources for Sugar in general. |
| 13:08 | cjb | so maybe the answer is "we can't afford to put marco and simon on distro work full-time, but if we did have the resources, this is what we'd want to do" |
| 13:09 | (which just means we need to work to get the resources) | |
| 13:09 | walterbender | maybe this is an ask for some industry partner. |
| 13:09 | marcopg | hm |
| 13:09 | caroline | walterbender who? |
| 13:09 | marcopg | aleksey expressed interest into doing that work |
| 13:09 | maybe we need to just let him maintain soas-1 | |
| 13:09 | alsroot_ | caroline: if it makes sense I could take work of packaging activities (as much as possible) for SoaS |
| 13:10 | marcopg | and fork as much as he like |
| 13:10 | alsroot_: how does that sound :) | |
| 13:10 | walterbender | if we are targeting Fedora, it would have to be someone who has interest in Fedora |
| 13:10 | alsroot_ | marcopg: parsing deps/add spec template/put it to rpm repo |
| 13:10 | tomeu | I'm pretty sure alsroot_ is capable of doing that, but he has already taken a ton of stuff ;) |
| 13:11 | walterbender | if alsroot_ will do it, that would seem to solve a lot of problems |
| 13:11 | marcopg | tomeu: yeah but this is very high priority as caroline point out |
| 13:11 | tomeu | agreed |
| 13:11 | marcopg | tomeu: so maybe it's the best use of his time |
| 13:11 | alsroot_ | and moreover it could benefit another jhconvert's distoros |
| 13:11 | tomeu | I expect that caixa magica thing can be left now on its own |
| 13:11 | erikos | one could argue as well - if alsroot helps on soas-2 we would be quicker ;p |
| 13:11 | marcopg | erikos: we actually have quite a bit of time for soas-2 |
| 13:12 | erikos: we don't have to be very quick | |
| 13:12 | tomeu | but if rawhide is too unstable, makes it sense to start working on soas-2 now? |
| 13:12 | marcopg | (i.e. there is better to go slowly and do stuff right) |
| 13:12 | tomeu: if we don't, when F11 is out it will not be good enough for us | |
| 13:12 | so my proposal is: | |
| 13:12 | erikos | tomeu: the problem is just all those backports we need to make :/ |
| 13:12 | caroline | What I'd love to see is a press release every time we get a new activity out and stable on SoaS inviting people to come back and play with it. maybe get help with lesson plans and activities, youtube demos etc. |
| 13:12 | tomeu | erikos: for 0.84 to run on F10? |
| 13:13 | marcopg | 1 alsroot_ take over soas-1 maintenance and works with caroline on what she needs on the short time |
| 13:13 | erikos | tomeu: yes |
| 13:13 | tomeu | erikos: do we have many dependencies not in F10? |
| 13:13 | caroline | If we put this effort in technically we need to leveage it with marketing and exposure. |
| 13:13 | marcopg | 2 erikos and marco works on soas-2 trying to get it mature by the time F11 is released |
| 13:13 | how does that sound to everyone involved? | |
| 13:13 | alsroot_ | marcopg: makes sense |
| 13:13 | erikos | is fine with me too |
| 13:14 | tomeu: evince for example | |
| 13:14 | tomeu | sounds good to me |
| 13:14 | erikos: damn, true | |
| 13:14 | marcopg | caroline what do you think? |
| 13:14 | caroline | explain what it means to me as the customer please |
| 13:15 | erikos | but alsroot_ might have to give up his slipstick work ;p |
| 13:15 | marcopg | caroline: for the short time it means alsroot_ will take over Soas work basically |
| 13:15 | caroline: he will work on making activities work | |
| 13:15 | caroline: by forking stuff from Fedora | |
| 13:16 | walterbender | I will also ask for more support from a few potential industry partners... cannot hurt to ask |
| 13:16 | marcopg | caroline: generic stuff like customization can be worked at the same time for both streams I think, so I and Simon can still help with that even on the short time |
| 13:16 | caroline | and marcopg and tomue will be focusing on work that will take how many months till a end user can see the result of? |
| 13:16 | marcopg | caroline: 5 May |
| 13:16 | cjb | caroline: maybe three |
| 13:17 | although I'm sure it will be bootable/usable before then | |
| 13:17 | marcopg | actually 26 may sorry |
| 13:17 | erikos | caroline: it will actually not be so much different to what you will see on alsroot_ work |
| 13:17 | caroline: i mean sugar will only see more bug fixes now | |
| 13:18 | caroline | hmm, I'd be a lot happier with more work towards the short term goals. |
| 13:18 | as the BP I am writing next week maybe in front of investors in less then a month. but getitng money is a long shot so I understand your desire to invest for the future. | |
| 13:19 | marcopg | I'm not sure how to make decisions on this kind of stuff I guess :) |
| 13:19 | erikos | caroline: how do you actually need to present? |
| 13:19 | marcopg | what if let alsroot_ take over the effort |
| 13:19 | tomeu | caroline: why don't we start like this, then in a week see how things are going and decide if we need to pour more resources in soas? |
| 13:19 | marcopg | and judge if it's worth for us to help out |
| 13:19 | depending on how much progress he make/what we need | |
| 13:19 | caroline | erikos I think these people, and others who are looking at us will not wait for us to present |
| 13:19 | erikos | caroline: i mean showing a class working with soas? |
| 13:19 | caroline | they will goto the website and make a stick |
| 13:19 | tomeu | no need to make a 5-year plan right now |
| 13:20 | marcopg | tomeu: correct, I think that's the best plan |
| 13:20 | caroline | erikos, I can wait in terms of going in front of kids |
| 13:20 | marcopg | I think the only decision we should make now is that alsroot_ maintains soas-1 |
| 13:20 | caroline | but I *know* there are funders lookign now. I hear it through the grape vine. |
| 13:20 | marcopg | and that we are fine with forking it a lot from Fedora |
| 13:20 | erikos | caroline: maybe we should get the page nice then ;p |
| 13:20 | caroline | and they will be judging by what they see up on the web. |
| 13:20 | erikos, yes good idea | |
| 13:20 | marcopg | how much effort we put into it is something that can be determined gradually |
| 13:21 | caroline | its all volunteer so each person gets to decide. |
| 13:21 | marcopg | anyone opposed to that plan? ;) |
| 13:21 | erikos | Potemkinsch villages :) |
| 13:21 | tomeu | marcopg++ |
| 13:21 | marcopg | caroline: right but we can also let people know what we think is most important for SL |
| 13:21 | alsroot_ | marcopg: +1 |
| 13:21 | caroline | but my pitch is to make a great stick *now* and hope that turns into enough extra resoures to justifiy the refactoring that will be needed for F11 |
| 13:21 | tomeu | one more consideration is that by getting 0.84 well packaged in soas, we can get more testing for 0.84 |
| 13:22 | erikos | caroline: we should at least make sure all the activities on the stick work |
| 13:22 | walterbender | caroline: a *great* stick now is not feasible |
| 13:22 | caroline | yeah |
| 13:22 | walterbender | but a demostration stick now is... |
| 13:22 | erikos | marcopg: that we should finish i guess (taking out if neessary) |
| 13:22 | caroline | erikos yes |
| 13:22 | tomeu | well, I think that the refactoring is needed to put 0.84 into F10, not into F11 |
| 13:22 | marcopg | we need to wrap up sorry |
| 13:22 | (or at least I need to go asap :P) | |
| 13:22 | walterbender | it is not usable in a classroom without Write and Read |
| 13:22 | marcopg | let's make some action items |
| 13:22 | walterbender | but it demonstable now |
| 13:23 | erikos | friday - italy cinema day |
| 13:23 | marcopg | close the meeting |
| 13:23 | BigOrangeSU | wonders what part of the agenda we are on |
| 13:23 | marcopg | and then we can keep discussing |
| 13:23 | erikos: nah just mom calling for food ;) | |
| 13:23 | BigOrangeSU: heh | |
| 13:23 | erikos | only erikos' stomach is calling for food here |
| 13:23 | caroline | thanks everyone! |
| 13:24 | marcopg | so action item 1 |
| 13:24 | is alsroot_ to take over soas-1 | |
| 13:24 | erikos | caroline: yeah - i think this discussion was needed |
| 13:24 | alsroot_ | marcopg: yup |
| 13:24 | marcopg | what if you get in touch with me by priv mail |
| 13:24 | caroline | SoaS is doing great so far and attracting interest, its a good position to be feeling so much pressure. |
| 13:24 | marcopg | and I make sure you have everything you need? |
| 13:24 | alsroot_ | marcopg: ok |
| 13:25 | marcopg | the other is erikos to start working on soas-2 I guess |
| 13:25 | erikos | marcopg: we need to give him an account for the building servre - to sebastian as well |
| 13:25 | marcopg | with me and sdziallas |
| 13:25 | erikos | ok |
| 13:25 | marcopg | I can send out mail to start/coordinate that work |
| 13:25 | and finally | |
| 13:25 | caroline | and I do totally get and respect your needs to not fork too far from Fedora releases. |
| 13:25 | marcopg | I'll take care of calling another meeting at some point in the near future |
| 13:25 | to go through the points of the agenda we didn't cover | |
| 13:25 | mainly releases, changelogs, testing | |
| 13:26 | caroline: thanks for pushing us to look at customer needs | |
| 13:26 | caroline | thats my customer role job :) |
| 13:26 | marcopg | so that's all what I have |
| 13:26 | thanks everyone for coming | |
| 13:26 | and sorry if it was a bit of a mess | |
| 13:27 | we covered a lot of ground | |
| 13:27 | even if not exactly what we planned to cover :) | |
| 13:27 | BigOrangeSU | your welcome :) |
| 13:27 | alsroot_ | caroline: do you have a short list of activities that should be runable on soas-1? |
| 13:27 | marcopg | hope to see all of you to the next meeting |
| 13:27 | thanks! | |
| 13:27 | erikos | marcopg: thanks for hosting us! |
| 13:27 | marcopg | #endmeeting |