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Time	Nick	Message
11:12	marcopg	_bernie: collaboras are debian guys :)
11:12	_bernie	maybe we should run the meetbot on our new server when we get it.
11:12	cassidy	indeed :)
11:12	Robot101	you rang? :)
11:12	_bernie	marcopg: if I could learn some debian they can certainly learn some fedora ;-)
11:13		or we could install gentoo to displease everybody
11:13	marcopg	I'd just not waste their time to learn things
11:13	_bernie	Robot101: ciao
11:13	cassidy	Robot101: _bernie suggested to use xs.sugarlabs.org as ejabberd box
11:14	_bernie	marcopg: then should I manage the xs following their instructions?
11:14	marcopg	_bernie: I tried and I could not get it to work :(
11:14	Robot101	what/where is that box?
11:14	_bernie	Robot101: it's a schoolserver 0.5, but we can update whatever we want
11:14	marcopg	_bernie: there is also the problem that the xs is this custom thing...
11:14	_bernie	Robot101: it's at Solutiongroove
11:14	marcopg	_bernie: don't even know if you can yum update it
11:15	Robot101	we need to make new ejabberd instructions for installing sugar-friendly ejabberd+gadget on any system, ideally
11:15	_bernie	marcopg: yes you can, it's not as broken as OLPC-3
11:15	marcopg	_bernie: ah that's good to know
11:15	_bernie	[not nearly as]
11:15	Robot101	the host box will run xen 3.2.1 on i386
11:16		I have tools to make Debian VMs very easily
11:16		for anything else I need a kernel, initrd and tarball of the / filesystem
11:16	_bernie	marcopg: it's just a plan F9, plus F9 updates, plus a custom repository with few new packages
11:16	cassidy	would prefer a Debian actually
11:16		as it has the right ejabberd packaged
11:16		(2.0.2)
11:17	Robot101	we should provide instructions for doing it on debian and on fedora systems, so having both to test makes sense anyway
11:17	marcopg	I don't have any strong feeling, as long as we get a working ejabberd soon I'm happy :)
11:17	Robot101	we should have it working by monday
11:17	marcopg	we could use xs.sg to test the schoolserver
11:17		(on Fedora)
11:17	_bernie	caroline_: ping
11:18	marcopg	and the collabora VM for just jabber
11:18		having two would be cool anyway
11:18		one defaulted in sugar
11:18		with a bunch of people on it
11:18		and one with no people for more controlled testing
11:19	_bernie	Robot101: do you think there would be confusion if we make ejabberd in one place and the rest of the XS services in another?
11:19		are the accounts shared or something?
11:19	Robot101	_bernie: not currently, but I don't know what other parts of sugar rely on an XS
11:19	_bernie	backups...
11:19		updates...
11:20		things that the sugar developers did not use to test in the past
11:20	marcopg	updates are not really relevant for non-olpc though
11:20	_bernie	now we're on our own or we'd better declare the xs unsopported.
11:20		yes
11:20	marcopg	I wouldn't make things more complicated than they need to be anyway
11:20		we have enough problems to solve :)
11:20	Robot101	and do you really want to provide backup services for every sugar user ever?
11:20	_bernie	Robot101: it's for developers
11:21		Robot101: for now :-)
11:21	Robot101	at the moment the presence service just makes up a random JID and uses that, so its just the one hostname that configures where we connect to
11:21	_bernie	caroline thinks that without some xs integration we lack credibility in any school
11:21	marcopg	I think sugar is supposed to to get that hostname from the xs
11:22	_bernie	she volunteered to help us with it
11:22	marcopg	right and xs.sg is where we should develop that integration
11:22	_bernie	and she says solutiongroove will develop their servies on top of the existing xs
11:22	marcopg	while the collabora server would be focused on collab (jabber)
11:23	_bernie	btw, this does not imply the xs needs to be F9. we could port those packages to debian, for example.
11:23		but it's more work
11:23		and unless someone volunteers to do it, it's not gonna happen
11:23	marcopg	calls for actions!
11:24	_bernie	marcopg: if you think 2 separate servers could work, that's ok
11:24	marcopg	I think they would be useful
11:24	_bernie	Robot101: how does the xo discover the jabber server? does it look for the SRV records in the domain above the schoolserver hostname configured in the control panel?
11:25	marcopg	so the actions are something like this?
11:25	_bernie	cassidy: or maybe you know
11:25	marcopg	1 Robot101 + cassidy to setup collabora VM, marco to make it default when it's up
11:25		2 _bernie to give root access to cassidy, and we can look together into making jabber work on it
11:25		?
11:26	Robot101	_bernie: the versions shipped in XOs thus far don't do any SRV stuff because the loudmouth is too old
11:26	_bernie	cassidy: please point me at your ssh key(s)
11:26	Robot101	_bernie: so we just override it with the hostname / port directly
11:26	cassidy	_bernie: yeah, we just use the server configured using sugar-control-panel
11:26	marcopg	_bernie: no it gets it by xmlrpc from the xs
11:26	cassidy	_bernie: for a root access ?
11:26	marcopg	at registration
11:27	_bernie	so we need to choose one xs to use for everything?
11:27	marcopg	huh?
11:27	_bernie	I mean, we can't use jabber here, the rest there?
11:28	marcopg	no idea why we should do that :)
11:28		let's keep things simple :)
11:29	_bernie	marcopg: perhaps I misunderstood your action items... do we point sugar at solutiongroove's or collabora's xs?
11:29	marcopg	collabora has no xs
11:29		it has a jabber server
11:29	cassidy	tbh, I'd prefer to not have to maintain 2 jabber servers
11:29	marcopg	and we point sugar to collabora jabber by default
11:29	cassidy	I prefer to code than configure jabber server :)
11:30	marcopg	cassidy: sure, it make sense
11:30	_bernie	so do we use only solutiongroove's?
11:30	marcopg	and we use sg xs to test integration with the schoolserver
11:30	_bernie	ah I get it
11:31	cassidy	and to be really honest, I don't care about XS that much :p
11:31	_bernie	so we won't have a configuration that makes everything work out of the box?
11:31	marcopg	yeah mainly I'd prefer to not have cassidy deal with the xs
11:31		I just want a rocking jabber server from him
11:31		whatever os it's hosted on
11:32	cassidy	hey, last time I tried their LIVE cd, it almost erase one of my HD :p
11:32	_bernie	oh yeah that's fantastic
11:32	marcopg	_bernie: I think it's too early for that, especially if we don't get someone interested in XS work
11:32	_bernie	also asterisk (centos based) would do that
11:32		asteriskhome
11:32	marcopg	_bernie: whoever gets interested on xs integration should be testing it with xs.sg
11:33	_bernie	marcopg: I told you, caroline _is_ interested and has people working on it
11:33	marcopg	_bernie: right, than we should help them to setup xs.sg...
11:33		I don't see a lot of sense in asking cassidy to do that though
11:33	_bernie	it's already up and running
11:33	marcopg	_bernie: yeah but jabber is broken
11:34		and I wasted a few hours trying to make it work :/
11:34	_bernie	I see it running... what should it do?
11:34	marcopg	_bernie: gadget behaves weirdly on it, not sure why
11:34		works fine in sugarlabs2
11:34	_bernie	look, yum says there's an updated version:
11:34		<marcopg> _bernie: right, than we should help them to setup xs.sg...
11:34		<marcopg> I don't see a lot of sense in asking cassidy to do that though
11:34	marcopg	note that XS 0.5 doesn't have gadget
11:35		I had to "hack" it in
11:35	_bernie	oops
11:35		ejabberd-xs i386 2.0.1-11.fc9.olpc olpcxs 719 k
11:35		replacing ejabberd.i386 2.0.2-3.fc9
11:35		maybe this fixes things?
11:35	marcopg	not really
11:35		XS does not support gadget
11:35		and we need it
11:35	_bernie	ah ok I see
11:35	marcopg	Martin or someone will have to look into that at some point
11:36		but first we should show that gadget really help things I guess
11:36	_bernie	sorry, I wasn't paying much attention, but I vaguely remember now.
11:36	marcopg	and that's what the collabora server will help us achieve
11:36		once jabber works
11:36		we can think more about xs :)
11:36	_bernie	ok agreed
11:37		marcopg: I'm adding a CNAME for collabora's jabber server
11:38		jabber IN CNAME bhaji.collabora.co.uk. ; Cassidy
11:38	marcopg	Robot101: cassidy is that right ^ ?
11:38	_bernie	marcopg: we can make sugar point at jabber.sugarlabs.org out of the box, and we can quickly retarget it as we go
11:38	cassidy	I think it will change once we have the new VM
11:39	_bernie	cassidy: let me know and I'll update the dns accordingly
11:39	cassidy	_bernie: sure
11:39		according to Robot101 the VM should be, hopefully, running Monday
11:40	_bernie	cassidy: also, it would be nice if you could add admin contacts here:
11:40		http://sugarlabs.org/go/Infras[…]tureTeam/Contacts
11:40		and here: http://sugarlabs.org/go/Infras[…]ureTeam/Resources
11:40	cassidy	_bernie: ok, I'll do
11:41		sorry, have to leave. We have a spec meeting
11:41	marcopg	cassidy: later, thanks!
11:41	cassidy	see you guys
11:41	_bernie	(also note the nice pictures that decorate the infrastructure pages)
11:41		cassidy: thanks for everything
11:42	cassidy	np :)
11:42	_bernie	cassidy: oh gimme your ssh keys if you (still) want access to the xs (but I don't think so :-)
11:44		marcopg: oh, regarding dns, shall I make buildbot point at sugarlabs2.xen.prgmr.com?
11:51	marcopg	_bernie: it does already I think
11:52		_bernie: http has another problem
11:52		_bernie: the UI shows both git and http
11:52		_bernie: so I guess we should make both work
11:53	_bernie	marcopg: oh yes it's already done
11:53		marcopg: I just replied to lance
11:53		it's easier than I thought
11:54		we just need Alias /git/ /var/lib/git/
11:55	marcopg	and that makes both http and git to work?
11:55		(see my last mail)
11:55	_bernie	but I can't do that myself
11:55		hmpf
11:56		I can't edit files in /etc/apache/...
11:56		this process of granting admin privileges selectively is really bothersome
12:32	Robot101	_bernie: no it won't be bhaji
12:32		_bernie: that's our router in the office
12:37	_bernie	Robot101: ok
12:37		let me know when I should update the cname
12:37	Robot101	it'll be korma.collabora.co.uk
09:52	gregdek	mchua_: Hosed?
09:52	mchua_	is still hosed, but here for the purposes of meetingness.
09:52	erikos	which is meeting is now?
09:53	mchua_	Mm, just a little. Though I was flat out for 12 hours last night and feel much better now. (I pretty much shut down and went "zomg must have the resting.")
09:53		erikos: marketing!
09:54	erikos	oh marketing
09:56		looks like we should change the title here by now
09:56	mchua_	erikos: you're supposed to say it with exclamation points. "oh!! marketing!!!" ;)
09:56	erikos	mchua_: damn - i never get it right ;p
09:57	mchua_	erikos: bugsquad, of course, is in all caps with underscores and even more exclamation points. ;) <---is biased
09:58		contemplates making an aalib animation of glittering, flashing, marquee "YAY TESTING" text marching across the screen, but thinks better of it
09:58	erikos	bugsquad, my pet subject
09:59	mchua_	that's __//BUGSQUAD!!!111//__ (...okay, maybe "simplify and amplify" only goes so far, and there's something to be said for nuanced understanding)
10:00		howdy caroline!
10:00	erikos	mchua_: maybe you slept too long?
10:00	caroline	good morning :)
10:00	erikos	hello caroline
10:00	jt4sugar	Hello
10:00	erikos	hello jt4sugar
10:01	jt4sugar	Hi
10:01	mchua_	erikos: I'm pretty sure I did...
10:01	erikos	mchua_: :)
10:01	walter	greg: shall we get started?
10:01	mchua_	jt4sugar: oh hey, john! evangeline got to connect with the learning team, btw, so good news
10:01	jt4sugar	Very good to hear
10:01	mchua_	jt4sugar: (asking members of the learning team for their thesis == really easy way to make them happy and wanting to talk with you ;)
10:02	jt4sugar	OK
10:02	mchua_	gregdek: ping, o fearless leader?
10:02	walter	mchua: just don't ask them to write
10:02	gregdek	Hello.
10:02		looks for agenda.
10:03		Forgive me if I'm a bit slow today -- feel like my head is swimming in molasses.
10:03		One sec...
10:03	mchua_	gregdek: http://sugarlabs.org/go/MarketingTeam/TODO ?
10:03	gregdek	http://sugarlabs.org/go/MarketingTeam/TODO
10:03		Bah. :)
10:03		NEW RULE: whomever posts the agenda first runs the meeting!
10:04		(tee hee)
10:04		All right.
10:04		Let's get to it.
10:04		ROLL CALL please.
10:04	walter	walter here
10:04	caroline	Caroline
10:04	mchua_	Mel
10:04	jt4sugar	JT
10:04	erikos	listens
10:05	gregdek	Decent quorum. Thanks
10:05	caroline	JT can you expand out to somehting I can match with an email address to help me get a better feel for people.
10:05	gregdek	First of all...
10:05	jt4sugar	John Tierney
10:05	caroline	Hi John :)
10:05	gregdek	...sorry for sending a reminder saying that we were meeting at 10am, since this meeting is supposed to be at 11am.
10:06		Apologies for any confusion, but since everyone showed up at 10, fine. I still think we should keep the 11am slot, so in subsequent weeks that's what we'll do.
10:06		ITEM 1: Make the "Get Involved" page amazing.
10:06		walter, how's christian doing on his static page layout?
10:06		Since it seems to be consensus that ultimately this page will live there...
10:06	walter	coming along, but no quickly
10:06	gregdek	Anything that anyone can look at yet?
10:06	walter	I think people (including me) still owe him some copy
10:06		Nothing to see yet.
10:07		bit of a chicken and egg
10:07	gregdek	Is anyone keeping track of the copy he needs?
10:07	caroline	Greg, from the get involved page we need a link to the How to talk to us on IRC page.
10:07	walter	but he has been busy with lots of other little detaisl, like logos
10:07	gregdek	OK.
10:07	walter	and a better calendar
10:07	gregdek	We can keep this item simmering.
10:07		Yeah, +1 to better calendar.
10:08		And the irc question reminds me... do we have the irc client in-browser yet?
10:08	walter	not that I know of, but chatzilla is so easy... is it a priority?
10:09		maybe just the link to the chatzilla install is enough?
10:09	jt4sugar	www.mibbit.com no downloads needed
10:09	mchua_	calendar + irc sounds like an infrastructure thing to me - are they trac tickets yet?
10:09	gregdek	mchua_: I know we discussed mibbit with bernie. I don't know if it's a trac ticket, though.
10:10	walter	I'll be back via mibbit in a second
10:10		trying a new chat interface...
10:10	jt4sugar	Pretty easy HUH?
10:11	walter	actually, I think people will be confused the first time.
10:11		we should add some screen dumps
10:11		but then it should be easy
10:12	gregdek	OK.
10:12	walter	they need to remember to do three different things to start, including finding freenode in a long pulldown menu
10:12	gregdek	So we need an IRC page that talks about:
10:12	walter	anyway, let's add mibbit as an option...
10:12	gregdek	* How to install your favorite client, OR how to use mibbit.
10:12		Who wants to take that on?
10:14	mchua_	can't take new action items this meeting, for the record. veryveryhosed.
10:14	walter	walter steps back
10:14		that leaves mchua, caroline, and JT in the front row
10:14	caroline	I nominate Bernie :)
10:14	mchua_	gregdek, walter: i suspect this will be the case a lot this week and next - perhaps we can push non-taken task items to a "help wanted" section in walter's weekly digest?
10:14	gregdek	Yep.
10:14	walter	tI think it should not be a techie
10:14	gregdek	That's the point of this list.
10:15	caroline	+1 to a helpwanted section on the Sugar Digest
10:15	walter	mchua: +1
10:15	gregdek	It's not just for everyone to claim something -- it's also to leaving things unclaimed to generate volunteer help.
10:15		So that's what we'll do.
10:15		adds to TODO with "nobody" as owner.
10:15	walter	quick aside: why don't we use Jabber for meetings (eating our own dogfood)?
10:16	gregdek	It's a fair question.
10:16	erikos	likes the help section idea - to generate and include volunteers
10:16	caroline	Walter, I just asked in #Sugar and we do not yet have an XS we believe works well.
10:16	gregdek	wonders if we can come up with a way to tag all unclaimed work items to put into an easy view on the wiki...
10:16	mchua_	gregdek: untaken task-items should have an applause-watcher to watch the todo page and cheer for any volunteers who pick them up, though
10:16		gregdek: semantic mediawiki. ;)
10:17	walter	we could have an include page and a template
10:17	gregdek	Yes. Are we running semantic mediawiki? :)
10:17	mchua_	that works too.
10:17	tomeu1	trac would work bad here?
10:17	mchua_	gregdek: no, I just checked the list of installed plugins.
10:17		(http://sugarlabs.org/go/Special:Version)
10:17	walter	it is interesting why we use trac for some things and not everything
10:17	gregdek	I've never a big fan of trac because the overhead of managing it is higher... but I could be wrong.
10:18		Properly managed, trac could be great.
10:18		I've always used wiki for non-tech stuff because it's so lightweight.
10:18	mchua_	trac scales better than manually-edited wiki pages do.
10:18	tomeu1	would be awesome if we could do trac queries from wiki pages
10:18	walter	maybe a link from the wiki to submitting a ticket? But we had an issue with SNR at OLPC
10:19		We need, either way, volunteers to keep it all orderly
10:19	gregdek	Frankly, the mechanism matters not to me.
10:19		The important thing is the weekly meeting where we go over the items.
10:19	homunq	OLE nepal prefers redmine to trac
10:19	gregdek	But happy to discuss at some other point. :)
10:20		looks back at agenda.
10:21		* Create a sponsorship program.
10:21		walter, any update on this?
10:21	walter	no
10:22		I've been hosed as well and been focued on the local lab topic...
10:22	gregdek	OK.
10:22	walter	next week?
10:22	gregdek	Yep.
10:22		amends.
10:22		Next:
10:22		* Elevator pitch!
10:22		I haven't talked to Dennis and Scott at all.
10:23	walter	I have been talking to Dennis...
10:23	gregdek	Anything about the elevator pitch, or in general? And will they be able to join us for any of these meetings?
10:23	walter	invite them and they will come
10:24		Dennis comes up with nice ideas, but they seem to generic to me--they don't have a Sugar-specific bite.
10:24	gregdek	Hm, yeah.
10:24		All right.
10:24	jt4sugar	Sugar is all of the above approach Top Ten List
10:24	gregdek	So walter, do you have Dennis and Scott's emails? Since I searched my mail for their addresses, and failed to find them. :)
10:25	walter	I'll resend them
10:25	gregdek	OK, thanks. Sorry for the hassle.
10:25	mchua_	so, I noticed http://sugarlabs.org/go/Market[…]eam/ElevatorPitch has a lot of ideas, but no votes - people have only added their own new ideas
10:26	gregdek	So Dennis and Walter aside... how do we start bringing the pitch to closure this time 'round?
10:26		Deniis and Scott aside, i mean.
10:26		Do we want to call a big vote?
10:26		Do we want to let it simmer some more?
10:26	mchua_	do we have any criteria for what we're looking for? a deadline? a sense of how "permanent" this elevator pitch will be?
10:26	gregdek	Do we want to invite Dennis and Scott and receive their wisdom?
10:26	walter	I thought we were going to run the picthes past some folks?
10:26	gregdek	Yeah, but I don't guess we made the mechanism clear on how to do that.
10:26	walter	I asked Dennis already. Wanna ask Scott?
10:27	gregdek	walter: I will.
10:27		Dennis had no particular opinion on any of our pitches, I presume?
10:27	mchua_	gregdek: so, thought experiment: if, say, you exercised dictatorial powers and said "This Is Our Pitch," right now, would anything explode?
10:27	gregdek	Nope. I'm getting there, though. :)
10:27	walter	mchua: nothing would explode. let's choose one
10:28	mchua_	or perhaps the somewhat more mild "this is our pitch; comments/etc welcome over the next 48 hours," same as what i did for the planet sugarlabs blurby thing.
10:28	gregdek	Yep.
10:28	walter	I like short and to the point
10:28	gregdek	I want to make sure the point is the right one. :)
10:28		So.
10:28		We can either:
10:28		1. Allow me to choose as Leader Of The Marketing Gang.
10:29		2. Have A Vote Among Marketing Folk.
10:29		3. Have A Vote Among A Very Wide Array of People.
10:29		Which increase in order of "time to get something".
10:29		And mchua_, to your point, this is as permanent as we choose to make it.
10:30		If it goes on printed collateral like business cards, it suddenly becomes quite permanent indeed.
10:30		So.
10:30		pauses to receive wisdom.
10:30	jt4sugar	Top ten things Sugar does-will allow conversation inroads with all types
10:30	caroline	I'd love to get feedback from people in our target audiances who are not yet involved with the project.
10:30	mchua_	I would suggest (1), with a 24-48 hr comment period announced to iaep (to increase chances of buy-in), and gregdek just Making The Decision at the end of that time period
10:30	gregdek	So in three seconds, we got three opinions. :)
10:30		That tells me we're not there yet.
10:31		And honestly, I'm in no super hurry.
10:31	caroline	Maybe thsi is something marketers making a difference can help us with.
10:31	gregdek	So let me put it this way:
10:31		caroline, if you want to get other people in the loop and get some feedback, do that.
10:31		And you're in charge. :)
10:32	caroline	yeah, wish I had time to commit to that.
10:32	walter	I vote you chose and let people fix it: easier to be a critic than a creator
10:32	gregdek	caroline: Then I think you've answered the question. ;)
10:32		So I'll pick one for now, shall I?
10:32	caroline	But I have a pilot to plan, and I try to help everything USB and I'm committed to the goal of teacher involvement so I need to focus my commitment.
10:32	gregdek	And when people say "THAT doesn't represent Sugar AT ALL!" then we can go back and fix.
10:33	mchua_	gregdek: +1
10:33	gregdek	caroline: understood. No criticism, just the fact of short resources.
10:33		I would like more feedback myself. But I don't think anyone has time to go get it, and I think we're "close enough for now".
10:33	erikos	gregdek: sounds good to me - to choose one and see the feedback
10:33	caroline	yes, hopefully some of the work we have done will lead to mroe marketing resources in the Fall
10:33	gregdek	Yep.
10:33		All right.
10:34		I may ask people to vote to help me with my decision, but in any event, I own it and will have a deliverable by next meeting.
10:34		Good?
10:34	tomeu	+1
10:34	mchua_	gregdek: quick addition for when you announce the pick: "This pitch isn't set in stone. If you'd like to lead an effort to create a better one, the marketing team would welcome your contributions. Come to the next meeting at blahblahblah..."
10:34	walter	+1
10:34	mchua_	and +1
10:34	erikos	sounds god
10:34		aehm good :)
10:34	gregdek	Freudian slip. ;)
10:35		All right.
10:35		Moving on.
10:35		* Get everyone's blog aggregated at planet.sugarlabs.org
10:35		Looks like we've up to... 26?
10:35		goes to count.
10:35	erikos	put his blog up last week!
10:36	gregdek	Yay!
10:36		Yep, 26. Although it looks like a couple of those links don't point to actual feeds, as indicated by the red dotted line.
10:36		Someone should fix those at some point...
10:36	erikos	do people use categories, to avoid 'uninteresting information going in?
10:36	gregdek	...but I guess that's a trac ticket for bernie.
10:37		erikos: It depends.
10:37	_bernie	gregdek: the planetmaster is ivan, but I can do it too
10:37	gregdek	I think that pl.sl.o is pulling all of my stuff, although Planet makes it easy to pull only certain tahs.
10:37		_bernie: Maybe ping Ivan to figure out what's up with the busted feeds, like the Ceibal feed?
10:38	erikos	gregdek: yeah - asked ivan to only pull the category sugar from my blog
10:38	_bernie	gregdek: send the link to the correct category to us
10:38		also send us your hackerotchi
10:38		(the face)
10:38	gregdek	_bernie: Will do.
10:39	_bernie	I've been working a little on restyling our sites and make them consistent with each other
10:39	erikos	_bernie: hackerotchi it is called?
10:39	gregdek	Hackergotchi.
10:39		OK, so work is ongoing here.
10:39	erikos	ok ;p
10:39	walter	we should put instructions to all of this somewhere...
10:39	_bernie	to knit them all together I've started adding nav bars
10:39	erikos	walter: yes!
10:39	gregdek	walter: "contact planetmaster" is already on the planet sidebar.
10:39	walter	I use categories in my blog, but I don't know how to tell the planet about them
10:40	erikos	gregdek: well but the category thing
10:40	gregdek	And "planetmaster" should respond with a standard request: "here's what I need."
10:40	erikos	gregdek: and the hackergotchi thingy
10:40	_bernie	walter: I guess the rss link may have something like ?category=sugar...
10:41	gregdek	_bernie: However you and Ivan want to manage this, it's up to you guys. At the very least, make sure that you're letting people know that you want to aggregate according to tag/category, which will differ from blog to blog.
10:41		OK, any objection to moving on?
10:41	jt4sugar	Need a Newbie lesson for this
10:42	gregdek	I'm not sure I agree.
10:42		People who blog already blog, and people who don't blog shouldn't be forced.
10:43	jt4sugar	What if I wanted to but didn't know how
10:43	walter	I agree with JT... it is only easy after you have done it once
10:43		just like getting started in IRC
10:44	jt4sugar	On ramp to on ramp
10:44	gregdek	If someone wants me to add "a beginner's guide to blogging" to the TODO, I will certainly do that.
10:44	jt4sugar	It would be helper for older teachers
10:45	mchua_	I nominate jt4sugar for point on that todo, since he has a vested interest in making it happen. ;)
10:45	_bernie	gregdek: yeah
10:45	tomeu2	_bernie: couldn't find the other day a way to reach older entries in the planet
10:45	erikos	jt4sugar: maybe someone that blogs already - can do a blog on how to blog?
10:45		a blog post on how to blog - i mean
10:45		jt4sugar: if that is what people need to start - i am happy to do it - just let me know
10:46	_bernie	tomeu2: I think the link is missing in the template
10:46		tomeu2: please file a bug for me, or keep reminding me until I fix it
10:46	tomeu2	will file a bug
10:46	gregdek	adds a TODO: "beginner's guide to blogging for Sugar," owner jt4sugar.
10:46	jt4sugar	I dont know how so that would be great Thanks!
10:46		I'll delegate when necessary
10:48		I accept
10:48	gregdek	jt4sugar: Your learning process will be the perfect fodder for a beginner's guide! :)
10:48		(Start at blogger or livejournal, I'd say.)
10:48		Okey doke.
10:48		Moving on:
10:49		* Business card design. walter, anything new here?
10:49	walter	I posted moo stuff a while ago... Christian is working on a default
10:50	gregdek	OK. Will continue to check in on Christian's design.
10:52		All right.
10:52		Any other business?
10:53	caroline	I thought I added somethingto the agenda
10:53		PD Intern, under Requested tasks
10:54	gregdek	Yes, going there.
10:54		(Moment of wiki fail, please hold.)
10:54	mchua_	puts on the muzak
10:54	walter	and I want to just mention the Marketer Making a Difference meeting in January
10:54	mchua_	walter: ooh, where/what/when is that, url?
10:54		that sounds rather fortuitous
10:55		jt4sugar: also, if you'd like, right after this meeting I'll walk you through setting up a wordpress.com blog; it's fast, free and will only take a minute (and I find it to be the easiest to put categories into, for sorting into planet sugarlabs).
10:55	walter	Something Caroline brought to my attention. A local marketing group that gives pro bono advice to non-profits.
10:55	mchua_	cheers for pro bono advice
10:56	walter	they agreed to meet with us in January (but would like just 2-3 Sugar Labs reps. to start)
10:56	gregdek	OK, sorry.
10:56	walter	OLPC has Larry Weber...
10:56		whom NN asked not to work with us...
10:56	gregdek	...?
10:56		Sigh.
10:56	walter	even though I am the one who brought him to OLPC :(
10:57	gregdek	All right. Caroline?
10:58		caroline: tell us about your intern request.
10:58	caroline	I think we need to focus our marketing beyond geeks and espeically to teachers.
10:58		Teachers are far more likely to respect training done by teachers then by geeks.
10:58		Thus I'd like to bring in a teacher to both do training and help us create training materials that meet the expectations of teachers.
10:59		thoughts?
10:59	tomeu	I love the idea and liked the proposal you sent earlier today
10:59	jt4sugar	Be great to have Intern to be liason to field groups
10:59	caroline	this involves some financial commitments and I'm not sure how these get approved.
11:00	gregdek	turns to walter. :)
11:01		Well.
11:01	caroline	Also Professional Development is one of the engines that companies/local sugar labs can use to be sustainable.
11:01	gregdek	Sounds like a fantastic idea. The question is, what do we need to do to make it happen?
11:01	walter	we need to make it clear how teachers (and university types) can leverage Sugar Labs to raise money
11:02	caroline	walter, I don;t understand that statement
11:02	walter	but we cannot raise the money ourselves... at lease I would prefer not to...
11:02	jt4sugar	We need short-term funding to get to long-term goal
11:02	walter	Caroline: like the Gardner Grant. We do it jointly, but we aren't the money tree.
11:03	caroline	walter, did you get my email to SLOBS?
11:03	walter	I will continue to try to raise some short-term money
11:03		but it ain't easy or fast in this economic climate
11:03	caroline	This does not require SL to raise money, but the money has to go through SL.
11:03	walter	caroline: which emall?
11:03	caroline	The financial side of hiring a work study intern
11:04	walter	we can have money "pass through" SL as long as it is aligned with our goals and principles.
11:04	caroline	I don;t want exact numbers on the public record yet as they may change so nayone who needs a copy let me know and I will email.
11:04	walter	caroline: if we can find the money...
11:04	caroline	So, I'm making this a no cost option for Sugar Labs but to make this work I need the following from Sugar Labs 1. Support doing the paperwork, she has to be paid through a 501C3 2. Help finding low or no costs spaces where Terri can do workshops for teachers and parents in Boston 3. Help finding USB donations so we can provide Sugar on a Stick without paying for USB sticks 4....
11:04	mchua_	walter: I think what caroline may be asking for is the procedure for having money 'pass through' SL - if someone has money and wants to put it through, what do they do?
11:04	caroline	...Agreement that its fine for Sugar Labs to run a workshop for teachers and charge for it. 5. Agreement in principal that if things go well, and the workshops make money Solution Grove will either be paid back or we'll work together to endow a fund that is dedicated to teacher and community engagement and creation of materials for workshops. 6. Agreement that all materials created...
11:04		...will be available under an open license that allows remix and reuse in commercial applications by anyone.
11:05	gregdek	Yeah.
11:05	caroline	Walter, Solution Grove is fronting the money and I am suggesting charging for workshops to make it sustainable.
11:05	walter	Let's talk to the SFC about this
11:05	gregdek	thinks Walter missed the "no money" part. :)
11:05	walter	greg is right...
11:05		Caroline: let's talk to Karen this week.
11:06	gregdek	OK.
11:06		So I'll move this to the "accepted tasks" section.
11:06	caroline	My plan in entrepenueral, Solution Grove provides the upfront investment but my hope is she pays for herself.
11:06	gregdek	And mchua_, what about your slide deck request?
11:06	caroline	and thanks to the fact the US government pays 70% of her salery the model looks good to me.
11:07		gregdek, I think Walter has the next action, talking to SFC about how ot make the financees work.
11:07	mchua_	walter, caroline: please post the "how to pass funding through SL" thing somewhere public when it's up? I'd love to take a look at it and possibly pass some stuff through it too
11:08		gregdek: i put it up on the todo, it looks like christian took it
11:08	gregdek	OK.
11:08	dfarning	mchua_, I also work on the pass through stuff
11:08	gregdek	So that's our agenda.
11:08		(Hey dfarning!)
11:09	mchua_	dfarning: hey!
11:09	dirakx	hey all i got i request we have to investigate forms in wich a local lab can alter Sugar Labs logo and what a local lab can't do with the logo..
11:09		sorry to interrupt. ;)
11:09	mchua_	dfarning: yallrighty, then count yourself in that request as well :)
11:09	walter	Hey. I need to hop on my bike... back online in 2 hours.
11:09	dfarning	hey all just listening from the corner:)
11:09	jt4sugar	If you can make that a visual it would help
11:10	dirakx	i mean what is the grade of customization possible
11:10		:)
11:10	walter	I think in the beginning at least, we need to be conservative about the logo... more alter
11:10		ciao
11:10	mchua_	dirakx, how urgent is this? (Is there a deadline that you need to know this by?)
11:11		gregdek: since the meeting's running long, do you want to pop this to the end of today's agenda, defer to next week, handle it outside of meeting? (I'm guessing this might be dependent on dirakx's answer)
11:11	dirakx	mchua_: it's not urgent...but i think it is necessary to know this for other local labs..
11:11	gregdek	Let's put it on our list as a priority two so we're tracking it, anyway.
11:12		Since it's a textual logo, localizing the word mark is going to be an issue.
11:12	dirakx	.co local lab is using a logo reviewed by christian..but we have to make rules about how to use the logo.
11:12	cjl	Caroline Thought on soliciting USB sticks. many shops have "custom logo" printed USBs as leave behinds, suggesting handing out logos with corporate logo (maybe also with SugarLabs logo) bought in bulk may be good way to get price down.
11:12	gregdek	We need a legal team. :)
11:13	dirakx	i mean we would like to add the word colomnia to it with the same font for example..
11:13		gregdek: agree ;)
11:13	gregdek	OK, so this meeting is done.
11:13		I'll edit the wiki and send out the transcript.
11:13		And then I'm gonna go find some drugs.
11:13	mchua_	gregdek: disagree. we need a legal /resource/ teams can go to. an individual or list of individuals would be fine; if the volume of work grows to the point where a team is needed, then sure.
11:14		aw. gregdek, feel better soon...
11:14	gregdek	mchua_: Same diff to me. ;)
11:14	dfarning	gregdek, I'll also pick up unscrew up the calendar as a task
11:14	dirakx	bye all.
11:15	mchua_	see ya dirakx !
11:15		jt4sugar, let me know if you'd like that wordpress walkthrough now
11:15	jt4sugar	Yes
11:16		Can we do by phone I have a few other ?s
11:16	mchua_	jt4sugar: the phone is tough for me, because I can't lipread - if you don't mind IRC, I can try to take your other questions in here as well.
11:17	jt4sugar	ok
11:18	erikos	jt4sugar: http://erikos.sweettimez.de/ some info about the blogging here as a start
11:19	jt4sugar	I look at it
11:22		Mel
11:22	mchua_	jt4sugar: yes?
11:23	jt4sugar	Whats next step
11:26	marcopg	no marketing meeting?
11:27	jt4sugar	Started at 10am et today
11:28	marcopg	ah!
11:28		late as usual...
11:29	jt4sugar	Back on at 11am next week
11:29	mchua_	marcopg: not late, gregdek sent out the wrong time ;)
11:29		jt4sugar: ok - before we start, I'm going to request that you write up the things we're doing now as your first blog post ;)
11:29	marcopg	mchua_: aaaah! evil gregdek! :)
11:30	mchua_	jt4sugar: erikos just put out a blog post, http://erikos.sweettimez.de/?p=50, that linked to http://wordpress.com/features/ - go there.
11:30	jt4sugar	ok
11:30	mchua_	jt4sugar: then click the 'sign up' link
11:30	jt4sugar	ok
11:32		In process of activating blog
11:34		Have blog activated now what?
11:35	mchua_	jt4sugar: can you send me your blog's url?
11:36	jt4sugar	where do i find it?
11:37	mchua_	jt4sugar: are you viewing your blog in your browser right now?
11:37	jt4sugar	jt4sugar.wordpress.com
11:37	mchua_	clicks
11:40	jt4sugar	Now i'm logged into my account
11:41	mchua_	jt4sugar: great. you're looking at your dashboard now?
11:41		jt4sugar: there is a link on the top left hand corner that says "write"
11:41	jt4sugar	yes
11:41	mchua_	jt4sugar: click that, and you should see an editor
11:41	gregdek	_bernie: ping
11:42	mchua_	jt4sugar: write the title, and the post, and then click the "publish" button to the right
11:43	jt4sugar	dont see write new post?
11:46	mchua_	jt4sugar: you said you're logged in to your account?
11:46		jt4sugar: describe the screen you see before you, right now.
11:46	erikos	jt4sugar: at the left top - you see: posts
11:46		and then: add new
11:47	jt4sugar	did that on add new post screen
11:48	erikos	jt4sugar: then you just need to file in a title and the blog text
11:48		jt4sugar: once you are done - best to add it to a category (for example: sugar)
11:49	mchua_	(thanks, erikos)
11:49	erikos	jt4sugar: the category is at the right, and there you can give tags as well
11:50	mchua_	jt4sugar: btw, it's usually good practice to put the IRC nick of the person you're talking to in your message, so their screen flashes and they know you're talking to them - most of us have a lot of chats open simultaneously and it helps us keep track of where we should pay attention. ;)
11:51	jt4sugar	do you just type their name or can you choose it?
11:51	erikos	jt4sugar: you can use tab for a list to choose from
11:52		if i for example want to get your nick i do
11:52		a) type: jt
11:52		b) hit tab
11:52		it then autocompletes
11:53	jt4sugar	erikos: got it
11:53	erikos	if the autocomplete is not right you can hit tab again
11:53		ok cool
11:53	jt4sugar	mchua_: is that better
11:53	mchua_	jt4sugar: yay! yes, thanks!
11:54	jt4sugar	mchua_: can you save minutes from this to use as guide
11:54		mchua_: I have successfully put up first blog
11:55	mchua_	jt4sugar: I'll email you the log from this channel.
11:55	jt4sugar	erikos: Thanks for the help
11:55	erikos	jt4sugar: welcome :)
11:55	mchua_	jt4sugar: log sent
11:55		erikos: echo jt4sugar, thank you!
11:56	jt4sugar	mchua_: who was meeting of with Evangeline and Laerning Team
11:56	erikos	jt4sugar: a small note - the post is uncategorixed at the moment
11:57	mchua_	jt4sugar: ? not sure if I understand the question
11:57	erikos	jt4sugar: under posts - you can add a category
11:57		jt4sugar: and then update the blog to belong into that category
11:57		jt4sugar: that would be lesson 2
11:57	jt4sugar	Did you say you made contact between Evangeline and learning team
11:57	erikos	and enough for today :)
11:58	jt4sugar	erikos: Will work on 3&4 in Future, Thanks!
11:58		mchua_: Did you say you made contact between Evangeline and learning team
11:59	mchua_	jt4sugar: evangeline's grad student asked for the thesis of one of the learning team members
12:00		jt4sugar: I went "oooh YAY!" and introduced them
12:00		jt4sugar: so they do have contact now, and it's a happy contact
12:00	jt4sugar	mchua_: which member
12:00	cjb	hi all
12:01	mchua_	jt4sugar: claudia urrea
12:01		hullo, cjb!
12:01		cjb: feeling better?
12:02	jt4sugar	mchua_: Thanks
12:02		mchua_: saw that Chester, Pa getting 1000 XO's do they have loop team
12:03	mchua_	jt4sugar: no, they're not using the boston pilot model
12:03		jt4sugar: (they're doing their own thing, and probably have not heard about it)
12:03	jt4sugar	mchua_: what model are they using
12:03	mchua_	jt4sugar: don't know.
12:04	jt4sugar	mchua_: who do I talk to?
12:05	mchua_	jt4sugar: I also don't know.
12:06		jt4sugar: There's not a good interface to those pilots from OLPC internal atm, and from what I've seen, there's no internal bandwidth to build one right now. I would look for what you can find about the pilots publicly, and try to make contact from the outside that way.
12:06	jt4sugar	mchua_: Want to know if they have Education School attachment. Good reason to reach out to SJ
12:06	mchua_	jt4sugar: (I know that sounds discouraging, but there isn't much I can do about this at the moment - wish there was.)
12:07	cjb	mchua_: sadly not, think I've got the flu. but good enough to type from bed. :)
12:07	jt4sugar	mchua_: Not a problem. I will make necessary inroads. Thanks for the learning
12:08		mchua_: Opportunity
12:09		mchua_: That's all for the moment. Thank You!
12:09	mchua_	jt4sugar: thanks - that's exactly what we need. whenever we say 'we can't do much right now,' there is an unspoken "but if you want to do something on your own, /that's awesome./'
12:10	jt4sugar	mchua_: Appreciate the guidance!
09:08	caroline	is it deployment meeting time?
09:13	tomeu	caroline: I think it's time, but maybe this week isn't meeting week
09:13		they are biweekly
09:13	caroline	ah thanks
09:23	icarito	ah bi-weekly -
09:23		caroline: sorry, I thought we had meeting
09:24	caroline	Sebastion?
09:24	icarito	caroline: yep
09:24	caroline	maybe you and I should meet for a few minutes and move ahead on the intern for PD project
09:27	icarito	caroline: sure
09:27	caroline	http://sugarlabs.org/go/Workplan_for_PD
09:28	icarito	caroline: yes i saw that yesterday, what did you think of my course plan?ç
09:28	caroline	url?
09:28	icarito	i attached it to you on the email
09:28		in spanish
09:28	caroline	ah looking
09:28		ah, I have no spanish :(
09:29	icarito	ah i see... ok i'll open it for reference
09:29	caroline	from what you've described here is what I'm guessing soem differences are.
09:29		- you are doing a 4 day workshop and for our next stesp in the US we need 1, 2, 4 and 6 hours workshops as people are not as invested.
09:30		US schools will have tech support so we probably won't be teaching teachers things like how to install XS.
09:30		does that sound right?
09:30	icarito	caroline: yes i understand
09:30		that is why probably only the third day and fourth are relevant
09:30		that is working with sugar / and collaboration
09:30	caroline	so I'm imaginig our goal is to create modular content, because various other places will be somewhere inbetween what you and I are doing.
09:32	icarito	caroline: what do you mean with modular?
09:32	caroline	so next steps?
09:33		people can recombine the pieces
09:33	icarito	yes i was thinking too about how to move forward...
09:33		i mean how we can collaborate better, how I can be of help to PD
09:33		btw PD stads for?
09:33	caroline	Professional Development
09:34	icarito	ah
09:34	caroline	you can edit taht page to something more understandabe to non US people
09:34		Sounds like PD is local US jargon
09:35		definitely keep an active role in making sure what we do is applicable across cultures.
09:37	icarito	caroline: the reason i need to teach maintenancee the first couple of days is beacause these will be rural and semi-rural schools, quite isolated...
09:38	caroline	yes, I understand
09:38		they need to be self sufficient
09:38	icarito	caroline: i'll be happy with any material we can work on about sugar and collaboration, we need to decide the topics we can work together
09:38	caroline	Ok, so I think maybe next step is to have you and Terri meet on IRC?
09:39		What I need help with is checking in with her over the semester,helping her decide what to do next, reviewing work etc.
09:39		Also gathering the other people like you and me, who have an interest in creating good training materials.
09:39	icarito	caroline: i'll be glad to meet her, skype is also fine, you and I could probably do well speaking once
09:40	caroline	sounds good
09:40		I'll send an email out to all concerned.
09:40		which country are you from again?
09:41	icarito	caroline: Peru
09:41		caroline: pilar from colombia has already given a workshop
09:43	caroline	ah cool, who is Pilar?
09:43	icarito	Pilar Saenz, hangs on IRC with the username "befana" - she's not currently online
09:43		her experience is pretty valuable and she has already offered help
09:43	caroline	ah cool, can you let her know, see if she is interested in collaborating?
09:44	icarito	she has teaching experience
09:44	caroline	cool.
09:44	icarito	so we have sort of a team building up
09:44	caroline	ok so next steps are we talk to Terri.
09:44		Walter is looking into the funding paperwork.
09:45		We should make some sort of general post on IAEP that doesn't include any $ numbers.
09:45	icarito	caroline: yes we should announce it when we're set and have a roadmap
09:47	caroline	sounds good. I've got putting some sort of update on my todo, not sure when I'll get to it.
09:47		but this discussion is recorded by bot so we now have some public record.
09:47	icarito	caroline: i'd like to see goals that can be measured
09:47	caroline	agreed
09:48		I just added a new section to the wiki page. Feel free to edit
09:49		Ok I shoudl get back to work..anything else we should cover today?
09:50	icarito	caroline: at the moment i cant think of more, but I'll probably write an email during the day
09:50	caroline	great thanks! see you later
09:50	icarito	thank you!
10:56	marcopg	erikos: you should be proud of me, I'm in time today
10:59	erikos	marcopg: i was just about to say - ''thank you for being in time!''
11:02	marcopg	:)
11:02	erikos	it is 16.00 UTC!
11:02		welcome everyone for the BugSquad meeting
11:02		agenda of today: http://sugarlabs.org/go/BugSqu[…]gendas/2008-12-17
11:02		ROLL CALL please.
11:03		marcopg: looks like your earliness scared people away ;p
11:04	marcopg	eeek!
11:04	mungewell1	Hi, mungewell (aka Simon) from Calgary. Parttime bugster.
11:05	erikos	mungewell1: hi, thanks for joining in!
11:05	mchua_	Mel here, from Boston. full-time Breaker Of Things at OLPC.
11:05	erikos	mungewell1: you have been quite active already - great to see you here as well!
11:05	marcopg	hey mungewell1
11:06		hey mchua_
11:06	mchua_	erikos: #startmeeting?
11:06	erikos	hello mchua_ - thanks for breaking your sleep for us
11:06		#startmeeting
11:06		oups
11:06	marcopg	hah
11:06	erikos	#endmeeting
11:07	marcopg	someone forgot to stop one?
11:07	erikos	#stopmeeting
11:07	mchua_	looks at meeting.laptop.org
11:07	erikos	hello tarbo - here for the BugSquad meeting?
11:08		thanks mchua_
11:08	mchua_	erikos: It's still running at http://meeting.laptop.org/suga[…]0081212_1112.html from... uh... 5 days ago. _bernie is the current host.
11:08	marcopg	haha
11:08	erikos	_bernie: !
11:08	marcopg	_bernie: bad!
11:08	mchua_	laughs
11:08	marcopg	infrastructure meeting went a bit long ;
11:08	tarbo	erikos: i came here because of the meeting, yes. participation was not intended, though, more absorption. is it open?
11:09	marcopg	)
11:09	erikos	giggles
11:09		tarbo: yes it is open of course
11:09	mchua_	we're being logged so it's all right, but we should tease _bernie mercilessly about this until he fixes it ;)
11:09	erikos	let me repaste the agenda of today
11:09	mchua_	anyhoo
11:09	erikos	http://sugarlabs.org/go/BugSqu[…]gendas/2008-12-17
11:09	marcopg	guess we need _bernie to stop it
11:10	erikos	ok lets start - i will take the minutes by hand - that will work out too
11:10	marcopg	erikos: maybe try to kick the both off
11:10		bot
11:11	mchua_	(not worth it right now, imo - meeting first, bot issues later.)
11:11	marcopg	but yeah, let's just start
11:11	erikos	to introduce myself i am simon (erikos) schampijer the bugsquad team leader
11:11	marcopg	mchua_: yup :)
11:11	mchua_	hail fearless leader!
11:11	erikos	now to point 1:
11:11	marcopg	!
11:11	erikos	i have drafted a mission: http://sugarlabs.org/go/BugSquad/Mission
11:12		do the people agree with that - comments - flames - anything welcome
11:12	mchua_	I like it.
11:12	marcopg	erikos: like it
11:12	mchua_	One question - does the bugsquad also go out and actively solicit those bug reports?
11:12	erikos	(in short: i wanted to express that the bugsquad main mission is to be responsive - to give feedback)
11:13	mchua_	I like that focus a lot.
11:13	marcopg	mchua_: i.e. ask people to go test some release?
11:13	tomeu	(sorry I'm late)
11:13	mchua_	marcopg: Yes, and also to go out to downstream projects and say "hey, you should use our bug reporting system."
11:13	erikos	mchua_: maybe that is more the development team responsible for? not entirely sure
11:14	marcopg	mchua_: re bug system, think so
11:14	erikos	thanks loyal tomeu for joining in!
11:14	marcopg	I'm no sure about soliciting test for a release
11:14		might be a good idea though
11:14		we will have several distributions of say 0.83
11:14	erikos	mchua_: advertise, merketing the use of the trac system sounds interesting
11:14	marcopg	and, for example, a request of help to test it, enumerating this distributions could help
11:15	erikos	mchua_: maybe if the squad is responsive - that is advertisement in itself ;p
11:15	marcopg	erikos: yeah but it cannot be responsive if a distro doesn't go upstream at all :)
11:16	erikos	marcopg: sure :) so we need the squad to advertise the system
11:16	mchua_	erikos: :) I agree. I really like your focus on responsiveness; if at some point "being responsive to incoming bug reports" means "going hmm, we should have more bug reports... let's poke people to do more testing," then great.
11:16	erikos	the release is advertised by the dev group
11:16	mchua_	but always with the "be responsive!" as the driving force.
11:16	erikos	mchua_: that is a good one yeah ;p
11:16	marcopg	erikos: advertising the release will not be enough usually I think
11:16		erikos: because it's a source release
11:16		erikos: at some point it will be packaged/shipped in distros
11:17	mchua_	anyway, +1 from me on the mission as it stands; I can't think of any ways to make it better.
11:17	marcopg	erikos: and at that point someone will have to solicit testing
11:17		maybe dev, maybe bugsquad
11:17		tend to like bugsquad, maybe just because it's you and not me :P
11:17		yeah, think we are done on mission
11:17	erikos	marcopg: ok - i don't mind making this a task of the bugsquad
11:18		marcopg: i will add it
11:18		next point
11:18		b) What is needed in trac to start triaging?
11:18	mchua_	is m_stone's http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Trac_ticket_workflow a useful framework, erikos?
11:18		(or maybe a useful framework to start from and modify?)
11:19	erikos	mchua_: yup i liked most of it
11:19		a) we need all sucrose components present
11:20		i created me a todo for that
11:20	marcopg	part of it is probably not relevant to upstream tracker, so we can simplify some
11:20	erikos	yup
11:20	marcopg	the builds stuff, for example
11:20	mchua_	off the top of my head, from the OLPC test perspective, I'd like (a) a way to flag tickets my test group / downstream project is interested in, (b) a way to track them against our milestones downstream (this doesn't have to be in your tracker, it probably should be in ours, but we should figure that part out).
11:21	marcopg	mchua_: re 2, would be tag be enough?
11:21	mchua_	...basically, I want the ability to look at bugs from both a "downstream perspective" (with all our custom milestones and fields and stuff) and an "upstream perspective" (yours).
11:21	erikos	mchua_: yeah agreed that makes sense
11:21		maybe we can add tags for distributions?
11:21	mchua_	marcopg: I think it might be more scaleable to make some way of easily tracking parallel bugs in downstream/upstream trackers (starting with downstream trac, expanding to other bug reporting options as there are downstream projects that come in and want to use them.)
11:22	erikos	(ubuntu, fedora, olpc...)
11:22	marcopg	or a distribution field
11:22		mchua_: not sure to understand what you are thinking about in concrete
11:22	mchua_	we do it for OLPC deployments with a textfield and known tags we match (for instance, "Uruguay," or "Mongolia")
11:22	erikos	marcopg: what would your distribution field contain?
11:23	marcopg	erikos: a list of distributions, I think bugzilla has something like that too
11:23	erikos	marcopg: ok - that is what i thought as well
11:23	mchua_	marcopg: let's say I (OLPC downstream) find a bug in my Sugar distro, bug #1234, that I want to get fixed for... say... our ABC release milestone. I put it in my bug tracker, tag it with all the appropriate OLPC trac-magic because that's the system we're using, and then...
11:24		...how do you guys track and fix it upstream?
11:24		how does it get there?
11:24		how do I know it gets fixed so I can reflect the status back down here?
11:24		do I need to pay attention to your milestones and trac instance as well?
11:24	marcopg	ok, so the simple and low tech way to do it is to file a bug upstream
11:24		ah, so you want to be able to track the changes to the upstream bug from the downstream trac instance?
11:25	mchua_	Ok, so it's my responsibility to make sure that bug gets filed upstream, and to hook up my tracker to follow it?
11:25		(and yeah, being able to track the changes to the upstream bug from a downstream trac instance would be pretty handy - I can try to think of a plugin design that would accomplish this, if it's something that sounds good to others.)
11:26	marcopg	mchua_: ideally I think your trac instance would observe the upstream report and log changes
11:26	erikos	just remember that nt everyone is using trac
11:26	mchua_	aye, the responsibility should be on downstream to make sure we're getting what we need, I think
11:26	marcopg	in particular it would notice when the bug is closed as fixed
11:26	mchua_	nods
11:26	erikos	so the policy must be defined first
11:26	mchua_	but I am, so I care about trac. ;)
11:26	marcopg	mchua_: sorry to throw you responsibilities but yeah I think so :)
11:27		is giving all responsibilities to mchua_ and erikos today
11:27	mchua_	marcopg: no, I'm happy to take them on! just wanted to make sure that we clarified which side of the fence the burden falls on. :)
11:27	erikos	mchua_: absolutely
11:27	mchua_	...in general, for all downstream projects, not just OLPC. coughcough
11:27	marcopg	mchua_: happy to help out with implementation if you like (I don't know trac, but I can learn)
11:27	mchua_	marcopg: remember my mythical "coding fridays?" ;) I've done a trac plugin before. And then there's coderanger.
11:28	marcopg	coding fridays!
11:28	mchua_	marcopg: but yep, I'll probably be pestering you for design/python help regardless. ;)
11:28	erikos	ok can we some up the policy:
11:28	marcopg	mchua_: you should do coding nights instead, you would have a bunch of time :)
11:28		offtopic, sorry ;)
11:28		mchua_: cool :)
11:28	erikos	so the downstream must take care of being in sync
11:29		what the upstream provides are ways to tag the bugs
11:29		so they can be filtered more easily
11:29		does that sound right?
11:29	marcopg	a way to tag the bugs upstream seems useful to me yeah
11:29		mchua_?
11:29	mchua_	but we can request the bugsquad to implement software features in trac, and policies for trac usage, so that we can take care of being in sync more easily?
11:29	marcopg	(it's useful also for developers btw, to know where the bug was observed)
11:30	erikos	mchua_: yup - easpacialy the policies
11:30		marcopg: right - that is another point
11:30	marcopg	mchua_: software features for the downstream trac instance?
11:30	mchua_	marcopg: upstream (SL) trac.
11:31		(downstream should take care of their own trac - but if there's something we want to do that requires modification to SL's tracker, we need to ask.)
11:31	marcopg	mchua_: oh sure. not sure which features you are thinking about though
11:31		mchua_: definately, whatever you need upstream you should ask, I tihnk
11:31	mchua_	My mythical, future, to-be-proposed-and-designed "magic sync our bugs across trac instances" trac plugin, for example.
11:31		sweet.
11:31	marcopg	you can also ask yourself as a member of the upstream bugsquad :P
11:32	mchua_	then erikos, I think I'm good with that as far as OLPC's test community is concerned. ;) I am pretty sure that every downstream project is going to have individual requests and issues, but I'm totally comfortable working those out with you guys as they come up.
11:32		grin
11:32		marcopg: point taken. :)
11:32	marcopg	we should probably look into what rh and ubuntu does about this btw
11:32	erikos	mchua_: great!
11:32	marcopg	not trac, but still workflows
11:32	mchua_	marcopg: and gnome
11:32	marcopg	mchua_: yup
11:32	erikos	marcopg: ok sounds like a good action item
11:33		who does ubuntu - who does fedora?
11:33	marcopg	I can take fedora
11:33		fedora + gnome
11:33	erikos	do we have ubuntu people here?
11:33	marcopg	mungewell1 !
11:34		wonder if mchua_ is an evil ubuntu user
11:34	erikos	#ACTION: marcopg to look at the upstream/downstream interaction fedora+gnome
11:34	mchua_	is an evil ubuntu user for this round (and also switches distros every... nowadays, about once a year to stay on her toes)
11:34	erikos	ok you can come to me after the meeting as well if you are shy :)
11:34		next point:
11:35	marcopg	mchua_: I read your laptop is unstable, now I see why ;)
11:35		mchua_: switch to fedora now! :)
11:35	mchua_	marcopg: fedora's next up, though. ;) I figured FUDCON would be a good time to start that up, since it's my distro o' experimentation for 2009.
11:35		is offtopic, sorry. um... focusing!
11:35	marcopg	mchua_: :)
11:35	erikos	(I will add the components and milestones later today)
11:35	marcopg	my fault, sorry
11:35	erikos	Meetings: when/if
11:35	mchua_	oversight meetings, or triaging sprints?
11:35	erikos	what would a bugsquad do during their meetings?
11:35	marcopg	oh next point already?
11:36		we have not yet figured out what we need to start using
11:36		milestones, releases etc
11:36		happy to do that off-meeting if you want
11:36	mchua_	oversight meetings (like this one), as infrequently as needed... like SLOBS, probably frequent as we start up, but taper off to once a quarter when possible? (may not be possible for a long time, maybe a few release cycles.)
11:36	erikos	we can do it bi-weekly as well
11:36		not sure
11:36		don't think we need a weekly meeting for it
11:36	marcopg	I'd suggest to schedule one in two weeks
11:36	mchua_	erikos: a sprint meeting I'm thinking of something like http://live.gnome.org/Bugsquad/BugDays as a potential nice entry point for new members, and a good check-in for regular ones
11:37	marcopg	and then we go from there, depending on where we are
11:37	erikos	mchua_: right that is what i had in mind as well
11:37	mchua_	woo!
11:37	erikos	marcopg: ok - so we do every 2 weeks
11:37	marcopg	erikos: I'd not say every two weeks
11:37		might not even be necessary
11:37	erikos	oh i see
11:37		ok
11:38		next point
11:38		Sprints: when/if
11:38		what mchua said
11:38	marcopg	I like the idea of sprints
11:38		especially to get people started
11:38	erikos	good
11:38	marcopg	I thnk we should also setup things so that triaging happens async though
11:38		because it needs to be a continuous
11:38	erikos	yup and it is more 'get your hands on'
11:38		cooler than meetings
11:38	marcopg	we can't stop for two weeks and then get back at it
11:39		should triage sprints coordinated with downstream testing?
11:39		testing sprints that is
11:39		might be nice to have people around at the same time
11:39	erikos	triaging needs absolutely happen all the time
11:39	marcopg	so that bugsquad can help testers to file tickets directly
11:39	erikos	not only at sprints
11:39	mchua_	"you can always triage at any time, and if you'd like to schedule your own sugar triage sprint, please do and announce it $here! if you're new and want help getting started but can't make a sprint, ask $here_2."
11:40	erikos	mchua_: yup :)
11:40		marcopg: ok - sounds like a nice idea
11:40	marcopg	and testers can start getting involved in triaging work :P
11:40	erikos	evil marcopg
11:40	marcopg	stilll wants to steal as many people as possible from mchua_
11:40		:)
11:40	mchua_	hm - speaking as a "downstream testing" person, all I want to know is when regular triage sprints will happen, so I can push my requests upstream before each sprint, if I want/need to.
11:40	erikos	so we need to find out when downstream is doing testing
11:41	marcopg	mchua_: oh, so we are thinking of regular triage meetings
11:41	erikos	mchua_: oh ok - so testers sync on bugsquad not the other way around
11:41	mchua_	erikos: Yeah, I think that makes more sense especially if you folks get a lot of downstream projects.
11:41	marcopg	those could be quickly
11:41		mchua_: at some point we will ;)
11:41	erikos	mchua_: good
11:41	mchua_	erikos: Having an independent SL cycle that we know will stay stable will give us a good incentive to conform and adjust to you. ;)
11:42	marcopg	gah s/quickly/weekly
11:42		mchua_: that applies to the development schedule too :P
11:42	erikos	great - so we agree it looks like
11:42		weekly triage meetings
11:43		next topic
11:43		is fast today
11:43		Do we need a dedicated mailing list?
11:43	marcopg	woa
11:43	erikos	so we have announcements -
11:44		any other traffic that needs to be handled by the bugsquad?
11:44		email wise?
11:44	marcopg	irc seems a better communication channel to me
11:44	mchua_	questions on how to triage something, when working asynchronously?
11:44	marcopg	for the bugsquad
11:44	erikos	mchua_: questions about a specific bug you mean?
11:45	mchua_	I think it's small enough that we can tag [bugsquad] and [bugsquad][announce] on iaep atm, and when enough momentum builds split off a new list (say... when there are 15 people that request it and say they'll be active discussion participants.)
11:45	marcopg	mchua_: I'm not sure the traffic would be enough to be worth a sep list
11:45		mchua_: right
11:45	mchua_	erikos: yeah, like "I was triaging bug #567 but didn't know what to do."
11:45	erikos	cool
11:45		likes the use of tags
11:45		anyone opposed to that?
11:45	marcopg	and I guess we can use #sugar as irc channel
11:45	erikos	so speak up now?
11:46	marcopg	or maybe #sugar-meeting for the sprints
11:46	erikos	yup - if we grow we can still get another channel
11:46		marcopg: yup sugar-meeting for the sprints
11:46		and regularly - people can ask on #sugar
11:47		next topic
11:47		(always speak up if you have something to say)
11:47		i just try to get the agenda done :)
11:47		Create a list of concrete tasks we expect the BugSquad to do regularly
11:47	marcopg	heh you turned into mchua_ now
11:47		you will finish in 1h exactly
11:47	erikos	well you were in time today - so want i :)))
11:48	marcopg	:)
11:48	mchua_	maintain the BugSquad wiki pages (especially with policies like "we use #sugar for discussion, tag your iaep posts this way")
11:48	marcopg	* add components, tags, milestones
11:48	mchua_	* triage tickets, of course. :)
11:48	erikos	mchua_: yup - will directly update we have from the info from today
11:48	marcopg	mchua_: what does triage entail?
11:49	mchua_	* provide feedback on how to improve bug advocacy on a ticket, when requested. ("How could I have written this bug report better / which developers should I ping on it"?)
11:49	marcopg	for OLPC it has been mainly set a milestone
11:49		but in this case we probably want the maintainers to set milestones
11:50	erikos	look here: http://sugarlabs.org/go/BugSquad/TriageGuide
11:50		did everyone read the triage guide as homework as requested?
11:50	mchua_	marcopg: hm... good question. What I'd like to see is that no matter what comes into the tracker, when it's done passing through BugSquad and marked as "triage is done," it has (1) a SL milestone, (2) a well-written bug report, since sometimes folks aren't going to submit good ones, and (3) a suggestion on the next step to push it to developers for fixing - who to talk to, etc.
11:50	marcopg	erikos: I was in time, now don't pretend I did the homework too :P
11:50	erikos	marcopg: :)
11:50	mchua_	http://sugarlabs.org/go/BugSqu[…]tentToEdit/Triage ?
11:50	marcopg	erikos: (seriously, no, sorry, and it looks great)
11:51	erikos	mchua_: yup we - handle the not well written cases
11:51		mchua_: we even have stock responses :p
11:51	mchua_	erikos: whoa, awesome!
11:51		erikos: I need to borrow some of those stock responses for OLPC QA... where can I find 'em?
11:51	marcopg	mchua_: the tricky bit in your list is 1 to me
11:52	erikos	http://sugarlabs.org/go/BugSqu[…]de/StockResponses
11:52	mchua_	ooOOoo.
11:52		thank you!
11:52	marcopg	mchua_: it makes total sense in the olpc context, where you have customers you need to make happy
11:52	erikos	from the gnome bugsquad mainly
11:52	marcopg	mchua_: but in the SL context, who decide the priorities and hence assigns milestones?
11:53	erikos	marcopg: maintainer i would say
11:53		marcopg: maybe maintainer and bugsquad can work together?
11:53	marcopg	yeah maybe the squad role is to ensure that the maintainer set a milestone
11:54	erikos	means: if the squad does do the pre work and then assign to the maintainer to set the stone
11:54		marcopg: absolutely
11:54	marcopg	so maybe it's 3 steps
11:54		1 the bug gets in
11:54		2 bug squad make it nice (2-3 in mchua_ list)
11:54		3 maintainer assign a milestone
11:54	erikos	sounds right to me
11:55	mchua_	+1 from me.
11:55	erikos	4 the dev does fix it :)
11:55	marcopg	erikos: nah, the reporter does
11:55	mchua_	and 5, downstream takes the patch and puts it into their version and verifies and tests downstream, as needed. ;)
11:55	erikos	well who needs fixed bugs ;p
11:55	marcopg	mchua_ should start training her team ;)
11:55	mchua_	whoa, gregdek in da house!
11:55	marcopg	hey gregdek
11:55	mchua_	salutes marcopg
11:56	gregdek	whatdido?
11:56	erikos	hmm i think we did rock the agenda today, or?
11:56	mchua_	erikos TOTALLY rocked the agenda.
11:56	marcopg	gregdek: we are just happy that you are around
11:56	erikos	ok i will update the wiki and send minutes
11:57		marcopg: maybe we can do the trac work after the next meeting?
11:57	marcopg	throws something random to mchua_
11:57		just for the pleasure of doing it ;)
11:57	mchua_	I believe my only action item is to be a vocal downstream, including seeing if I can spec out the trac plugin OLPC downstream (right now, "me") wants
11:57		catches it
11:57	marcopg	gah! :P
11:57	mchua_	ooh, cotton candy. thanks, marcopg!
11:57		munches happily
11:58	marcopg	haha
11:58	erikos	mchua_: yeah - filling that role constantly is a great task!
11:58	marcopg	stops making noises and let erikos go on
11:58	erikos	ok - anyone does have a topic he wants to bring up?
11:58		(the agenda is done)
11:58		questions?
11:58		flames?
11:58	marcopg	yeah
11:59		back to 1
11:59		who takes care of fixing trac up?
11:59		there is a ticket about it even
11:59		we miss a bunch of setup
11:59	mchua_	(I'm going to be going around with my "how easy is it to join teams?" measuring stick later this week - possibly on saturday or sunday - so I'll probably holler about n00b-friendliness then, but nothing now)
11:59	marcopg	(components etc)
11:59	erikos	marcopg: i want to do it with you after the next meeting
12:00	marcopg	erikos: naaah, dinner and then I'm going out
12:00		erikos: but ok cool
12:00		mchua_: noob friendliness of trac setup?
12:00		or of the team?
12:00	erikos	marcopg: i just go back and forth with you - you only need to say - ok with your pan mostly ;)
12:01		we can do it tomorrow as well
12:01	marcopg	erikos: like that!
12:01	mchua_	marcopg: both
12:01	erikos	ok so we are done
12:01	marcopg	mchua_: ok cool, I like noobs, sometimes :)
12:01	erikos	thanks everyone for joining in!!!
12:01	marcopg	erikos: better than mchua_, I'm so proud of you man!
12:01	mungewell1	erikos: regarding Ubuntu people. There are a few joined to 'ubuntu sugar team', so it's not just me ;-)
12:01	mchua_	marcopg +1!
12:01	erikos	and i guess nobody found the bug of the week in my email: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A[…]ma_haemorrhoidale
12:01	mchua_	ha!
12:02	erikos	mungewell1: cool :)
12:02	marcopg	mungewell1: want to take the action to summarize their workflow?
12:02		mungewell1: would be useful, I'm looking into fedora here...
12:02	mchua_	...whoa, cool. "The stink comes from aldehydes such as CH3(CH2)2CH=CHCHO."
12:02	marcopg	erikos: hah
12:03	erikos	marcopg: or maybe ask someone of the team to do it - you are our contact for now ;)
12:03		damn
12:03		mungewell1: or maybe ask someone of the team to do it - you are our contact for now ;)
12:03	marcopg	mungewell1: we are interested into figuring out how ubuntu tracks upstream bugs mainly
12:04	mungewell1	I can mention it on the mailing list, but I don't know how organised they/we are for now.
12:04	marcopg	mungewell1: oh I meant in general, not just sugar
12:04		how ubuntu handles it for GNOME, for example
12:04	mungewell1	marcopg: launchpad..... it's supposedily really easy to tag a launchpad bug with an upstream bug report, and it automatically tracks it.
12:05	marcopg	mungewell1: a description of how that works would be nice :)
12:05	erikos	morgs: might know as well
12:05	marcopg	(or even just a pointer to an example ticket)
12:05	mungewell1	if only I knew... I'll look into it. Where do you want he comment left. Wiki?
12:06	marcopg	erikos: ^
12:06		mungewell1: yay, thanks :)
12:06	mchua_	erikos, marcopg, did you still need to talk with me about Activity testing or... something that we didn't cover last time? I don't recall exactly what it was.
12:06	marcopg	not sleeping is so bad for mchua_!
12:07	mungewell1	example of cross reported bug report: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubu[…]sugar/+bug/295113
12:07	erikos	mungewell1: you can either add it to: http://sugarlabs.org/go/BugSquad/Resources or send me email
12:07	marcopg	mchua_: that would be the topic of the next meeting :) activities, olpc, autotesting
12:07	erikos	mungewell1: erikos AT sugarlabs.org
12:07	mchua_	marcopg: yeah, I woke up this morning with the Sore Throat From Hell; pushing fluids from home to stay productive
12:07		marcopg: w00t. that's supposed to be now-ish, or "when erikos and mungewell1 are done coordinating," iirc.
12:08	marcopg	mchua_: next time I'll wake up earlier and start bugging you about going to sleep before you get completely out of mind :P
12:08	erikos	done - thanks very much everyone - was very productive!
12:08	marcopg	erikos: stop the both this time :)
12:08		oh hrm
12:08		we have no bot
12:08		not very awake either!
12:08	erikos	no control!
12:09	mchua_	_bernie: #endmeeting pls!
12:09	marcopg	went to sleep at 4 am too
12:09		ok I guess we can start the next meeting now
12:09		I'm supposed to run it, but I don't know how to run meetings
12:10		but it's only a few of us, so it won't be too bad!
12:10		so activities
12:10		the question last time was... who tests activities?
12:10		mchua_: is the olpc community testing group going to do it?
12:10	mchua_	"Not OLPC," says the Mel. "Only when we want to verify Activities we're shipping on the default image for XOs," says the Mel.
12:11	marcopg	mchua_: OLPC as org or as community too?
12:11	mchua_	marcopg: as org, and as far as the org will support community testing, at least for now.
12:12		marcopg: there's a reason I started off community testers with g1g1-2008 activities - it's a really easy way to argue that this, clearly, is something OLPC Should Have Tested, as we Ship It.
12:12	marcopg	mchua_: so OLPC strategy is to rely on upstream worth activities quality?
12:12		mchua_: that's what I think too, if you ship something you need to test it
12:12		from the upstream point of view
12:12	mchua_	marcopg: Well, it's tricky. We definitely don't support Activities, even the few we ship.
12:13	marcopg	mchua_: I understand, but I've not been able to make sense out of that yet
12:13	mchua_	marcopg: and with limited resources, I would prioritize OLPC testing towards XO-specific code (like our build, say.)
12:13		marcopg: hm, then I should try to clarify... is there any particular point you had questions on?
12:13		marcopg: or should I start trying to explain my current understanding of it?
12:13	marcopg	mchua_: prioritizing make sense clearly... but I don't see how you can not support something you ship
12:14		I guess what I'm unclear on is
12:14		how does it make sense to ship a product, and not support a very relevant part of it?
12:14		think to the extreme case
12:14		if no activities would work
12:15		what good would it be if the OS/core Sugar was perfect?
12:15	mchua_	Oh, I agree that without Activities, a perfect ship of Sugar/XO-OS would be useless.
12:15	marcopg	mchua_: but you disagree that OLPC should ensure that Activities are working well?
12:16	erikos	can not kick the bot - just tried
12:16	mchua_	Maybe a similar case would be... I'm not sure how Red Hat support works, but if someone writes $random_third_party_application, Red Hat doesn't necessarily support it automagically, right?
12:16	marcopg	mchua_: totally agreed about random third parties
12:16		mchua_: but making every activity a random third party seems to push it too far
12:17	mchua_	marcopg: I disagree that it is the responsibility of OLPC to ensure all Sugar Activities are working well. I agree it is the responsibility of OLPC - a responsibility towards its customers - to ensure a small subset of Sugar Activities they're likely to care about are working well.
12:17	marcopg	mchua_: then we completely agree :)
12:17	mchua_	marcopg: I think that this responsibility can best be carried out by making sure that a non-OLPC test/dev group for that Activity (which may include OLPC employees) makes sure that Activity works well,
12:18	marcopg	so OLPC, through his community or not, should make sure that this small subset is tested, right?
12:18	mchua_	since it's likely for Activities we ship (and therefore have a responsibility to sanity-check) to change from build to biuld.
12:18		marcopg: Yep.
12:18		marcopg: Kind of like how OLPC QA has a vested interest in having SL's BugSquad triage awesomely, even though SL's BugSquad is Not Us. (In fact, we have a huge incentive to keep the two separate.)
12:18	marcopg	mchua_: make sure that the activity works well on the XO
12:19		(I guess)
12:19		so this is still some kind of downstream testing, prolly
12:19		mchua_: did you already start to work on this? or is it just a plan?
12:19	mchua_	marcopg: Yep. But OLPC QA won't really care if the Activity works well in, say, Debian. And probably can't justify resources spent to do that. Just on the stuff we ship, and on whether it works on the XO.
12:20	marcopg	mchua_: sure, that's why I call it downstream testing
12:20	mchua_	marcopg: Well, the G1G1-2008 Activity testing is my first attempt at that limited sphere of responsibility (and it's far from perfect, but better than the almost-nothing we had before.)
12:20	marcopg	mchua_: my feeling is that this kind of testing should not go through SL basically
12:21	mchua_	marcopg: I don't want that to be interpreted as "OLPC will do all Activity testing, ever!" though - and want to work with SL to find ways to encourage Other People to do it.
12:21		it'll make both of our lives easier.
12:21		marcopg: I agree it shouldn't be a SL thing either.
12:21	marcopg	mchua_: and that from the upstream point of view it should probably work just like core testing
12:21		i.e. we get and triage the bug reports
12:21		(and fix them hopefully!)
12:21	erikos	agreed here
12:22	marcopg	OK
12:22		this is really cool
12:22		mchua_: thanks a lot, I was really struggling to understand olpc position on activities!
12:22	mchua_	marcopg: well, wait... is Activity development (making sure Activity bugs get fixed) the responsibility of core-sugar devs?
12:22		basically, "Who's Responsible For Activities?"
12:22	marcopg	mchua_: nope, of the activity upstreams
12:22		well
12:22		not exactly
12:22		so
12:22	mchua_	Is it SL? The Activity maintainer (as an independent project?)
12:22	marcopg	we have a group of activities
12:23		which are part of the SL release process
12:23	mchua_	It's definitely not OLPC, except for the "we need to check what we ship" bit.
12:23		listens
12:23	marcopg	the group is called Fructose
12:23		I'm not completely sure it's the right setup
12:23		and I'm willing to question that at some point
12:23		but, as long as, things are setup this way
12:24		I think SL as a community is responsible for the Fructose activities
12:24		and only for those
12:24	erikos	development and triaging wise
12:24	mchua_	marcopg: in the same way OLPC is responsible for the Activities we ship in signed images?
12:24	marcopg	for the other activities we basically provide services
12:24	erikos	mchua_: yup
12:24	marcopg	mchua_: not quite
12:24		mchua_: in the same way we are responsible for the core
12:25	erikos	mchua_: they are officially part of the release
12:25	marcopg	SL doesn't have customers, so we are not responsible in the same sense as olpc
12:25	erikos	oh right
12:25	marcopg	we don't do support etc
12:26		mchua_: is it clear how it's supposed to work? And I'd also like your opinion about how good is this setup, or how you'd see it work
12:26		(we can't change it for 0.84 at this point, but we might reconsider down the way)
12:26		my feeling lately is that this setup is too inflexible
12:27		different deployments might want pretty different set of activities
12:27	erikos	marcopg: yeah - but we have only a very small core
12:27		marcopg: and sugar without that core is nothing
12:27	marcopg	erikos: yup, but it would grow ideally
12:28	erikos	marcopg: the core?
12:28	mchua_	marcopg: but so would the maintenance you have to do
12:28		(you == SL)
12:28	marcopg	mchua_: sure and that's part of the reason I'm starting to dislike it ;)
12:28	mchua_	So, as I understand it, what other open-source projects have done to solve this problem is to market it as "You've got to make your Activity good enough to include in our Release of Awesome."
12:28	marcopg	we might spend time maintaining things which would not be generally useful
12:28	mchua_	(which includes stuff like testing and docs.)
12:29	marcopg	mchua_: very correct
12:29		and also
12:29		the application should be somewhat generally useful
12:29		and obviously not duplicate anything else in the core
12:29		s/core/release
12:29	mchua_	Being chosen for Fructose, or the G1G1 image, is an honor. It's an honor we don't have as much transparency on (as in, "I wish my Activity could be included, what do I have to do?" does not exist.)
12:30	marcopg	mchua_: it does exist :)
12:30		perhaps not well communicated though!
12:30	mchua_	marcopg: hm, I am missing many things then :) where do I find this?
12:30	marcopg	somewhere on the wiki
12:30		:P
12:30		(re not well communicated...)
12:30		let me see
12:31		mchua_: http://sugarlabs.org/go/Develo[…]_modules_proposal
12:31		mchua_: I mailed the list about it a couple of times
12:31		and we had a few proposals about it
12:32		but well, yeah, the documentation is very poor etc
12:32		mchua_: the fact that you had no idea about it, is obviously an indication that something is broken communication wise :(
12:32	mchua_	marcopg: oh! I mostly meant for OLPC (Greg Smith has done an admirable job of starting to collect proposals and make that process more transparent for 8.2.0, though).
12:33	marcopg	mchua_: oh I thought you was referring to SL. SL sucks at that anyway :) Greg has been doing better!
12:33	mchua_	marcopg: but, yeah, I think it applies to both SL and OLPC (although in slightly different degrees/ways).
12:34		<3 greg smith. I don't know what we'd do without him.
12:34	marcopg	so the consensus here is that we should keep Fructose but be careful to not expand it too much?
12:35		that's at least my understanding of what erikos and mchua_ was saying
12:35	erikos	sounds good with me
12:35		marcopg: as well - activities can be dropped or replaced in my opinion
12:35	marcopg	erikos: sure
12:35		(though in practice removal is sort of difficult)
12:36	mchua_	from the perspective of OLPC, Fructose probably doesn't matter as much (only inasmuch as it overlaps with what we've chosen to ship, really. ;)
12:36		but that sounds good to me.
12:36		back to the original question of "who tests Activities?" - it sounds like neither SL nor OLPC can take responsibility over all Activity testing, only sanity checking (and needed testing) on the subset we've decided to be responsible for.
12:36		so my question is what we can do to work together to encourage Activity maintainers to test their own Activities, to ease the load on both of us as "downstream."
12:36	marcopg	mchua_: the idea is that it will tend to overlap a lot with what you decided to ship, otherwise Fructose is going to be pretty useless
12:37	mchua_	...until OLPC doesn't make up nearly all of SL's user base, but yeah.
12:37	marcopg	yeah that's a good question
12:38		activity testing sprints sounds like a great thing, independently from who organize them
12:38	erikos	yup testing sprints sounds great
12:38	marcopg	stuff like SoaS will also get in quite a bit of testing on activities hopefully
12:38	mchua_	I think Activity testing infrastructure helps too; that's what I've been trying to set up from the OLPC side - I hope that what we've come up with is migrateable.
12:38	marcopg	maybe activity testing sprints should be co-organized by SL and OLPC
12:39		(and by SoaS etc)
12:39	mchua_	marcopg and erikos, can SL host the Activity development and testing resources?
12:39	marcopg	a bunch of people testing the same activities on a bunch of different distros
12:39		lots of fun!
12:39		mchua_: I think so
12:39	mchua_	like their trac instances, and where we report bugs on them, and gitorious and such for them? (I know some of this is already in the works.)
12:39	erikos	mchua_: development ressources we do host
12:39	marcopg	mchua_: hosting at SL sounds like a good idea
12:39	erikos	mchua_: we just moved git
12:40	mchua_	Excellent. How can I move the current Activity testing resources upstream, then?
12:40		Both in terms of infrastructure, but also process and the people who are doing the testing?
12:40	marcopg	can you enumerate the infra you need to move?
12:40		or I can do it, if you like
12:41	mchua_	is trying to steer helpful resources in the SL-hat direction, and trying to make it as easy as possible to take and clone (and then we'll delete it here)
12:41		marcopg: the move should take place after Dec. 25, when our current Activity test sprint ends. But basically, http://wiki.laptop.org/go/G1G1_Activity_testing and all the resources that it links to.
12:41		(or things that serve the same purpose.)
12:41	marcopg	mchua_: wiki pages only?
12:42		I'm planning to help moving dev resources here
12:42		git and trac compoennts
12:42	mchua_	marcopg: also a trac infrastructure for reporting bugs, but it sounds like you already have that down
12:42		marcopg: maybe a more coherent way of rephrasing it would be
12:42		"if SL is hosting Activity development/testing as a service to the Activity development/user community, there are some things I think it should provide"
12:43	marcopg	mchua_: things == infrastructure?
12:43	mchua_	marcopg: yeah
12:43		Some are things that are also dev resources, like code hosting (and an easy way for testers to download/install both latest-stable and bleeding-edge packages) and Trac (and procedures for reporting bugs, yay BugSquad!)
12:43	marcopg	oh I'm pretty sure we can get infra team to give us what we need :)
12:44	mchua_	Some are things that are a little bit more test specific, like... searches brain for list
12:44	marcopg	mchua_: I guess my question is how do we want to go about this then
12:44	mchua_	...a way for each Activity to keep track of its own test cases, test plans, and test results. And a way for the test community (SL's BugSquad, but also downstream projects) to search for and look at information about Activity test results across multiple Activities.
12:45	marcopg	i.e. how do we get to the infra team stuff we require
12:45	mchua_	And a way of contacting maintainers so it's easier to escalate any issues.
12:45	erikos	hmm
12:46	mchua_	marcopg: Yeah... if this sounds like the arrangement we want to have, I'm super-happy to work out the tickets that we need to file for the infrastructure team, but I'm not sure if this is the arrangement that you want, too.
12:46	erikos	the bug communication happen over trac
12:46	marcopg	mchua_: I like it. Can you think of any reason I'd not want it? :)
12:46	mchua_	erikos: Yep. (Another reason to figure out the upstream/downstream magic trac plugin - chalk a +1 to my motivation-to-work-on-that list.)
12:46	erikos	testing plans - would be good to have upstream i agree
12:47		mchua_: ;p
12:47	marcopg	erikos: and activity user/devel info
12:47	mchua_	marcopg: more stuff to think about and maintain (as infrastructure), mostly.
12:47	erikos	marcopg: yeah we just need to enhance the Modules page
12:47	marcopg	well, activities are my nightmare anyway
12:47	mchua_	marcopg: the setup costs are high. But I believe they'll be a well-placed investment (and eventually, a necessary one.)
12:47	marcopg	it's the biggest blocker for SL atm
12:47		(ask caroline!)
12:47	mchua_	marcopg: how so?
12:48	marcopg	it's a pain to get them into distributions because they are poorly maintained...
12:48	erikos	is interested as well
12:48	marcopg	it's not even clear how to contact the maintainers
12:48	erikos	oh yeah :/
12:48	marcopg	maintainers don't know how to package stuff properly
12:48		etc
12:48		SL needs to start to work with activity maintainers
12:48		at all levels
12:49		packaging, testing, user documentation
12:49	tomeu1	adds a Activities category to amo
12:49	marcopg	which doesn't mean we should do the work
12:49	erikos	ok i think - lets fix the glucose one first
12:49	marcopg	but provide the infra, the policies, the info that activity authors will use to do a better work
12:49	erikos	marcopg: we could do a sprint as well
12:50	marcopg	and I think the idea of upstreaming a bunch of activity related infra pieces, fits perfectly into this
12:50	erikos	once we have the basic infrastructure up
12:50	mchua_	From the OLPC side, I'm going to try to push Activity testing resources upstream, and help the SL-hosted infrastructure get started. That'll help us concentrate on 8.2.1 and 9.1.
12:50		Is someone going to run point on "Activity testing infrastructure?"
12:50	marcopg	"run point"?
12:51		my english sucks
12:51	mchua_	oh! sorry, "take as an ongoing action item"
12:51	marcopg	(great about the OLPC side)
12:51		mchua_: I can take it
12:51		I want to have some discussion about it in tomorrow dev meeting
12:51	mchua_	marcopg: I'm not sure how common the phrase "be the point person for this" is
12:51	marcopg	mchua_: oh that I understand, it's the "run" thing which confused me ;)
12:52	mchua_	marcopg: Thanks. I'm too hosed with CTW and 8.2.1 to really concentrate on Activity testing beyond our G1G1-2008 run right now, but can probably jump back in more helpfully in January.
12:52	marcopg	oh wait Activit testing infra :)
12:52		damn, I took the action without knowing what it was exactly :P
12:52	mchua_	marcopg: So yeah, please, please do ping me on that if you need a hand after... say... Jan. 5. I should have more of a life then.
12:53	marcopg	mchua_: OK, I will take it
12:53		I suspect I'll have to bug you a lot, though :)
12:53	mchua_	marcopg: (If you're too hosed and need to back out, that's okay. I understand. We /can/ come back to this right before FUDCON.)
12:53		marcopg: That's not a problem at all - I just need someone else to take responsibility for the remembering and pushing-this-forward right now, because I'm staggering under too many things to keep track of right now. :)
12:53	marcopg	mchua_: I will do my best :)
12:53	mchua_	marcopg: thanks, Marco.
12:54	marcopg	time running out!
12:54		think mchua_ is trying to make me a 2 h meetin got make fun of me
12:54		(can't type)
12:54	mchua_	didn't know we set a time limit for this one :)
12:54		I'll stay as long as it takes.
12:54	marcopg	ok it seem like we have a plan on activities, yay!
12:54	mchua_	(...well, if it runs over 4 hours, I might have to get dinner, but... yeah.)
12:55	marcopg	wonder if mchua_ doesn't remember what I said about time of this meeting or she is just making fun of me
12:55	mchua_	marcopg: yeah, I'm feeling much better about Activity testing now, thanks. And I'll make sure this gets communicated to the OLPC testing group and community.
12:55		marcopg: oh, are we doing an hour? ah! sorry!
12:55		has... a brain of great scatteredness today
12:55	erikos	marcopg: other points?
12:55	marcopg	mchua_: hehe I had said this one was going to be exactly one hour, thought you was kidding me ;)
12:56		yeah OLPC
12:56		leaves the floor to mchua_ about this
12:56		we discussed a part of that already with activities I guess
12:57		mchua_: I guess my question is... how do you think what we discussed in this two meetings will be in regard to OLPC
12:57		mchua_: to OLPC org in particular
12:58		mchua_: it's our first customer, so we have to care about it :)
12:58		mchua_: kim in particular seemed to be worried about upstream/downstream separation of the bug tracker
12:58		mchua_: do you think we are clear enough on how to coordinate, to be able to reassure them?
12:59		mchua_: anything you would like us to do, to make OLPC life easier
13:00		erikos: these OLPC people are evil, see now she runned away so that I can't close my meeting in time!
13:00	mchua_	is here! really! just thinking...
13:00	erikos	:)
13:00	marcopg	mchua_: :))
13:00		mchua_: sleep helps to think faster :P
13:00	mchua_	do you know what kim's concerns were, and/or would you like me to talk with her about those?
13:00		marcopg: :P
13:01		marcopg: ...says the person who was also up 'till 4.
13:01	marcopg	(you was up much later!)
13:01		erikos: do you remember?
13:01		we had a thread on techteam
13:01	mchua_	As far as I'm concerned, I'm completely confident that we'll be able to coordinate upstream/downstream stuff in whatever way we need.
13:01		But I'm only one individual.
13:01	erikos	marcopg: that was the past
13:01	marcopg	mchua_: perhaps the best would be to try and talk with Kim
13:02	erikos	if there are no current issues - lets just forget about it
13:02	marcopg	mchua_: now we have a better plan, we didn't when we first discussed it
13:02	erikos	right
13:02	mchua_	And I certainly can't speak for all of OLPC, or even all of OLPC's QA team... I do currently liason between the OLPC test community and OLPC as part of my job responsibilities, so "officially" that's what I can speak as.
13:02	marcopg	I propose that we go ahead with plan. And if/when mchua_ has time she sync a bit OLPC management about it
13:03	erikos	sounds good to me
13:03	mchua_	erikos, marcopg, I think you're right; we don't have any current issues, we just resolved the huge one of Activity testing to the satisfaction of everyone here, we just need to propagate that "yay!" feeling out to SL and OLPC communities (and OLPC-HQ.)
13:03	cjb	waves.
13:03	mchua_	marcopg proposal + 1
13:03	erikos	i have learned - you have to act first
13:03	mchua_	ask forgiveness, not permissoin!
13:03	cjb	mchua_: that sounds right
13:03	marcopg	ok, fanstastic
13:03		next point!
13:03	mchua_	s/permissoin/permission
13:03	marcopg	4 mins left
13:03	mchua_	waves at cjb
13:03	erikos	if someone opposes he will do it - if not you were not blocked
13:03	mchua_	automation!
13:03	marcopg	hello cjb
13:03	erikos	hello cjb
13:04	marcopg	ok so my agenda for automation would be to figure out how we go forward
13:04	mchua_	I have no bandwidth for it! cjb proposed we send a call to the community on what automation we need!
13:04	marcopg	which team/people start looking into it etc
13:04	cjb	hi all. don't let me distract your last four minutes. :)
13:04	marcopg	the sugarbot guy seem to be back have time, btw
13:04	mchua_	on Sugar and Activity testing, I'd propose as a first step to have a sprint to try to spec out Things We Need To Build / Automate
13:04	erikos	yeah seen a blog post
13:04	mchua_	I don't think the problem space is well defined (from the perspective of OLPC and of SL, both)
13:04		w00t sugarbot!
13:05	cjb	I think the lowest hanging fruit is sending out mail saying "hey this guy wrote this sugarbot thing and none of us have had time to look at it but I bet it'd make a good framework for activity testing"
13:05	marcopg	mchua_: I second that proposal
13:05	cjb	and, you know, you offer to make someone the head of the automated testing team, and so on
13:05	mchua_	as in, "I really don't know what we have/want/need re: automated Sugar/Activity testing for OLPC" - I have a reasonable idea, but it's likely to be out of date, and has huge holes.
13:05	marcopg	cjb: did someone actually look into sugarbot?
13:06	mchua_	cjb: +1, though I'd like to find ways to fit that into a larger, more coherent "so, Activity testing... here's the big picture" thing.
13:06	cjb	marcopg: I think we've all seen the screencast, but never tried running it
13:06	marcopg	I only have a vague idea of what it does
13:06	mchua_	marcopg: I did, a veryveryvery little bit. No patches. Just... I got it to run, once, on my desktop, which no longer has it installed (I wiped it and reinstalled ubuntu when it was getting flaky, months ago.)
13:06	marcopg	cjb: yeah was thinking more of code sanity :)
13:06	mchua_	marcopg: so, practically, "no."
13:07		I also recall the setup process to be sort of painful for me, but that's probably due to n00bness in large part.
13:07		I'd have to do it again to really say.
13:07	marcopg	so time is expired and my mum will get angry if I don't go to dinner :(
13:07		pizza!
13:07	mchua_	(in other words, "I didn't document it, so it didn't happen.")
13:07	marcopg	what about if I take action to schedule an automation discussion in one of the next sugar development team meetings
13:08	cjb	mchua_: oh, you did more than us, at least :)
13:08	mchua_	marcopg: and I'll take the parallel action item to schedule the same for the olpc internal test group, with a warning that that will probably happen in January
13:08	marcopg	and pester mchua_, cjb, the sugarbot guy and other interested people to participate
13:08		mchua_: sounds good
13:08		ok great!
13:08		we are done I think
13:08	mchua_	marcopg: agree
13:09	marcopg	thanks everyone for coming
13:09		mchua_ in particular to make me much more clear about activities situation :)
13:09	mchua_	marcopg, your meeting-fu increases. :)
13:09	marcopg	happy to see things moving there!
13:09	mchua_	Likewise!
13:09	marcopg	mchua_: I will work, at some point! :)
13:09		gah
13:09		rock
13:09		I need to learn to type, first
13:09		see you!
13:10	mchua_	waves, gets lunch
14:23	_bernie	#endmeeting

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#sugar-meeting meeting, 2008-12-12 11:12:00