| Time | Nick | Message |
|---|---|---|
| 09:45 | erikos | marcopg: i pretended to be a bot for a while |
| 09:45 | marcopg | damn now I'm the chair! |
| 09:46 | #ACTION tomeu to write a proposal for paris workshop people to work on further sugarizing labyrinth | |
| 09:46 | dsd_ | are there existing presentations i can steal from? |
| 09:46 | to give an overview of the sugar architecture? | |
| 09:46 | bastien asked for that | |
| 09:46 | erikos | dsd_: it all looks like an omelette |
| 09:46 | so you could show a picture of that | |
| 09:46 | dsd_: french people will like the cuisine approach | |
| 09:47 | tomeu | erikos swallowed a clown this morning, clearly |
| 09:47 | dsd_ | hehe |
| 09:47 | tomeu | erikos: someone posted an ascii diagram this week |
| 09:47 | erikos | tomeu: oh - to sugar? |
| 09:48 | tomeu | yeah, let me find it |
| 09:49 | http://lists.sugarlabs.org/arc[…]ember/002497.html | |
| 09:49 | but sugar is a black box there | |
| 09:49 | dsd_ | thats useful |
| 09:50 | erikos | we could extend the sugar part |
| 09:50 | like a zoom in | |
| 09:50 | tomeu | I personally think we have a quite "crisp" architecture inside the shell |
| 09:50 | dsd_ | that would be cool |
| 09:50 | since i dont really know myself | |
| 09:50 | tomeu | frame, desktop window, journal, model |
| 09:51 | erikos | extensions |
| 09:51 | tomeu | and inside the desktop window: home view, groups view and neighborhood view |
| 09:51 | oh, and control panel | |
| 09:51 | we have extension points for control panel modules, keybindings and device icons in the frame | |
| 09:51 | someone should do a nice diagram out of it ;) | |
| 09:52 | erikos | since tomeu has an action item already i will do that |
| 09:52 | marcopg: can you add it? | |
| 09:52 | marcopg | you can too |
| 09:52 | Gregorio | two suggestions: mention the datastore/journal and give out the sugar API documentation links (if anyone has them) |
| 09:52 | marcopg | think the bot listen to everyone |
| 09:53 | erikos | #ACtION ascii art of sugar architecture |
| 09:53 | #ACTION erikos: ascii art of sugar architecture | |
| 09:53 | tomeu | heh |
| 09:53 | maybe listens only to the sofa? | |
| 09:53 | I mean the chair | |
| 09:54 | Gregorio: the sugar almanac is quite good | |
| 09:54 | erikos | hehe they eat clowns for breakfast in prague as well |
| 09:54 | tomeu | misses the mediamods guys |
| 09:54 | dsd_ | can someone link to the best doc for writing activities/ |
| 09:55 | is that the almanac? | |
| 09:55 | tomeu | the almanac is more a reference |
| 09:55 | I think we have a hello world somewhere | |
| 09:56 | erikos | hellomesh we have |
| 09:56 | marcopg | tomeu: I invited erikb to Sugarcamp, didn't hear back though |
| 09:57 | tomeu | oh, a pity |
| 09:57 | dsd_ | where can i find hello world? |
| 09:57 | or shall i just stick with hello mesh? | |
| 09:57 | marcopg | well I just sent yesterday night |
| 09:57 | there might be hope still ;) | |
| 09:58 | my edit-activity is a pretty decent hello world, but it doesn't have collab | |
| 09:58 | only journal and base activity stuff | |
| 09:58 | (also it doesn't say hello world anywhere :P) | |
| 09:58 | tomeu | http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activity_tutorial |
| 09:58 | dsd_ | what does edit-activity do? |
| 09:58 | tomeu | looks quite good |
| 09:58 | dsd_: just embeds a gtk.textview | |
| 09:59 | dsd_ | tomeu: and that is up to date? |
| 09:59 | that MANIFEST stuff looks wrong? i dont think i've ever done that | |
| 10:00 | tomeu | dsd_: not sure how up to date is, but the manifest changes shouldn't have broken compatibility |
| 10:00 | dsd_ | it says you have to run: find . -type f | sed 's,^./,,g' > MANIFEST |
| 10:00 | marcopg | huh |
| 10:00 | dsd_ | anyhow.. edit-activity .. wheres the source for that? |
| 10:00 | if it just embeds a single simple widget it sounds good | |
| 10:00 | marcopg | bundlebuilder generate the manifest itself now |
| 10:01 | dsd_ | ok -- this is my concern, every time i find one of these "how to write an activity" thing i run into problems because the material is out of date |
| 10:01 | marcopg | will put it on gitorious |
| 10:01 | minute | |
| 10:01 | eben | notes that (lack of) daylight savings time has made it surprisingly difficult for him to make the Sugar meetings... |
| 10:01 | tomeu | dsd_: breaking things takes too much time for also updating the docs :p |
| 10:02 | eben: should I talk with obama about it? | |
| 10:02 | eben | tomeu: he heh |
| 10:02 | tomeu | he being a disguised european, may be willing to set your clocks to a time closer to normal |
| 10:04 | marcopg | dsd_: http://gitorious.org/projects/sugar-edit-activity |
| 10:04 | Gregorio | btw not sure what this meeting is but I have a write issue I'd like to mention if there is a good time to ask about it |
| 10:05 | marcopg | hehe /me need better agendas ;) |
| 10:05 | tomeu | Gregorio: it's the weekly sugar developers meeting, I think we have already gone through all the agenda items |
| 10:05 | marcopg | Gregorio: we don't have a very clear agenda, so feel free to mention your issue :) |
| 10:05 | dsd_ | thanks |
| 10:06 | can i suggest an action item for someone? go through the Activity_tutorial on 8.2 | |
| 10:06 | try it out | |
| 10:06 | fix anything bad like the MANIFEST stuff | |
| 10:06 | shouldnt take too long | |
| 10:06 | then i can be like "hey this stuff is DOCUMENTED!" | |
| 10:06 | erikos | marcopg: we had a strong agenda! |
| 10:07 | marcopg | erikos: huh hoh sorry, I missed it then :) |
| 10:07 | dsd_ | also, if the interest is more in the platform than in activities, did anyone come up with good getting started bugs to work on? |
| 10:07 | erikos | marcopg: ;p |
| 10:07 | dsd_: lets see if you can find out what system the people use | |
| 10:08 | dsd_: you can cc us in a discussion with lionel for example | |
| 10:08 | dsd_ | what do you mean by system? |
| 10:08 | erikos | dsd_: xo or ubuntu/fedora |
| 10:08 | dsd_ | oh, probably mandriva |
| 10:08 | erikos | oh right |
| 10:09 | dsd_ | i will ask bastien to make some livecds |
| 10:09 | erm | |
| 10:09 | fedora install cds | |
| 10:09 | erikos | mandriva is fine :) but i think it would make sense to work on those issues then |
| 10:09 | dsd_ | which? |
| 10:10 | erikos | dsd_: do we have sugar packages for mandriva? |
| 10:10 | dsd_ | no idea |
| 10:10 | you are the sugar developers :P | |
| 10:10 | tomeu | hmm, if there are non-coder techies there, they could work in improving the sugar experience in mandriva |
| 10:11 | dsd_: not packagers :p | |
| 10:11 | marcopg | don't know about mandriva packages |
| 10:11 | tomeu | mandriva may be the largest distro without known packages |
| 10:12 | dsd_ | ok, thats another possibility then |
| 10:12 | erikos | i thought there was once an interest in sugar on mandriva |
| 10:12 | dsd_ | i think some mandriva people were specifically invited |
| 10:12 | tomeu | awesome |
| 10:12 | dsd_ | lionel replied btw, he cant make it here |
| 10:12 | erikos | dsd_: i would say to make an email thread about the camp and follow up on these questions |
| 10:13 | dsd_ | because irc is blocked at his company |
| 10:13 | i will send him these logs and see if he has anything to add | |
| 10:14 | erikos | cc us if you want so we can react quickly |
| 10:16 | Gregorio | time for a Write question? |
| 10:16 | marcopg | Gregorio: sure |
| 10:16 | Gregorio | thanks |
| 10:16 | marcopg | (not sure we have write experts here, but we can try!) |
| 10:16 | Gregorio | Paraguay reported a bug in Write with 8.2: http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/8972 |
| 10:17 | they are doing some final qualification testing and I think they plan to deploy 4K or so XOs after the first of the year | |
| 10:17 | erikos | (btw i think that's it with the agenda - thanks everyone for joining in) |
| 10:17 | Gregorio | they do great test work and I would like to be responsive to their needs (especially if we can help without rolling a new version of the XO to 8.2.1) |
| 10:18 | who should i assign that bug to? can anyone help look at it for Paraguay? | |
| 10:18 | tomeu | Gregorio: sounds like OOM to me |
| 10:19 | Gregorio | bummer... |
| 10:19 | I think rgs1 on the CC is Raul fro Ascuncion | |
| 10:19 | tomeu | Gregorio: abiword developers martin sevior and marc maurer are sympathetic to our cause |
| 10:19 | Gregorio | do you want to reply with some suggestions re: gathering logs etc |
| 10:20 | I want to show some movement and attention to their needs if we can | |
| 10:20 | tomeu | Gregorio: we could verify it's oom by asking them to monitor memory usage before they expect to crash |
| 10:20 | Gregorio | maybe we can't fix it but hopefully we can teach them how to help file bugs, diagnose things and in general build a better relationship |
| 10:20 | if you can comment on the bug that would be great | |
| 10:21 | tomeu | Gregorio: sounds good, I guess kim's team is working with htem? |
| 10:21 | Gregorio | do you mind if I keep it assigned to you? |
| 10:21 | good question | |
| 10:21 | yes Reuben si on it | |
| 10:21 | tomeu | Gregorio: would be good if the support team was able to ask for this info |
| 10:21 | and process it to some extent | |
| 10:21 | Gregorio | let me send one e-mail confirming that Kim wants to work this via trac |
| 10:22 | I'll make it more general, but I could use an engineer as the point person | |
| 10:22 | tomeu | I think it would be better for the longer term if I talk with reuben about it and he handles the issue |
| 10:22 | Gregorio | my default as the easiest guy to work with is Tomeu :-) |
| 10:22 | but let me know if should be someone else | |
| 10:22 | tomeu | needs to learn to hide better |
| 10:22 | Gregorio | its Tomeu now that Dan is out of shouting distance from my desk :-) |
| 10:22 | dsd_ | sorry tomeu :P |
| 10:23 | tomeu | heh, I'm doomed |
| 10:23 | Gregorio | seriously, is their a write maintainer? |
| 10:23 | there | |
| 10:23 | marcopg | Gregorio: not exactly |
| 10:23 | dsd_ | sort of |
| 10:23 | tomeu | Gregorio: OLPC used to contract Marc |
| 10:23 | erikos | dsd_: oh who? |
| 10:23 | marcopg | many activities doesn't have active maintainers |
| 10:23 | tomeu | but then the contract ended |
| 10:23 | dsd_ | marc.. |
| 10:23 | he did a bit of work on it in the run up to 8.2 | |
| 10:23 | erikos | well.... |
| 10:24 | Gregorio | is there a victim (oops I mean volunteer) who can help with this one? |
| 10:24 | marcopg | Gregorio: probably only the abiword people |
| 10:24 | no one else have a lot of experience with abiword | |
| 10:24 | tomeu | Gregorio: olpc should be able to interact with the upstream projects in order to get their help |
| 10:24 | Gregorio | I can work with Martin S. myself but I would feel better if I had a guide in our own engineering group.... |
| 10:25 | we are OLPC, right? | |
| 10:25 | tomeu | Gregorio: sure, but I mean the whole org |
| 10:25 | erikos | Gregorio: so i think - we do not have a maintainer for it - a volunteer that sometimes might fix something yes |
| 10:25 | tomeu | Gregorio: not only the developers |
| 10:25 | Gregorio | just kidding, get that clown guy back on the chat |
| 10:25 | tomeu | Gregorio: the upstream projects have also QA teams, translators, etc |
| 10:25 | Gregorio | last try, I'm asking for help solving this real deployment problem |
| 10:26 | I can hunt down Martin S ask Reuben to tell them how to capture logs, etc | |
| 10:26 | tomeu | Gregorio: if only olpc devs interact with upstream devs, we lose most of the game there |
| 10:26 | Gregorio | if anyone else with technical chops and experience in this area can help that would be great |
| 10:26 | tomeu | Gregorio: the QA team knows how to see if it's a memory problem, they should check that first of all |
| 10:27 | dsd_ | Gregorio: you may be able to find someone else to do the preliminary work. find someone to reproduce it, and confirm that it is reproducible. attach an affected file to that bug. try with 8.1, etc |
| 10:27 | tomeu | Gregorio: if they see that it's Write growing out of proportion, then we have something concrete we can show to the abiword developers |
| 10:27 | Gregorio: abiword has a bugzilla instance, we should create a bug there | |
| 10:27 | Gregorio | OK, thanks for your time, I'll leave Tomeu on the CC if that's OK and you can comment when you like (or not) |
| 10:27 | tomeu | Gregorio: then we can ask personally to martin and marc if any of them could look at it |
| 10:28 | Gregorio: ok, will write there what I said | |
| 10:28 | Gregorio | lots of suggestions but no volunteers to help get it done... :-( I'll open a thread with Kim and Reuben to see what we can do, thanks |
| 10:29 | dsd_ | Gregorio: many people are capable of doing the simple things i listed |
| 10:29 | marcopg | Gregorio: my understanding is that Tomeu is volountering |
| 10:29 | dsd_ | is frances still in contract? she might be interested |
| 10:29 | Gregorio: you could even do it yourself ;) | |
| 10:29 | Gregorio | I knew he was too nice to say no :-) I'm on it and I'll keep Tomeu in the loop, thanks! |
| 10:29 | tomeu | Gregorio: put me in CC and I'll give instructions to the support team |
| 10:30 | Gregorio: just wanted to raise the point that if OLPC has a support team and wants to ship FOSS software without paying checks monthly to upstream developers, then OLPC needs to, as an organization, institutionalize ways to successfully interact with those projects | |
| 10:30 | just taking the first developer that happens to be there won't scale | |
| 10:30 | someone at 1cc should give to it a bit of thought | |
| 10:31 | Gregorio | that's good, I didn't mean to get testy. I met Raul and he's sharp and on the ground at a real deployment so I hope we can help make him successful. It will pay off big with more engineers and feedback from South America by early next year! |
| 10:31 | tomeu | Gregorio: well, deployments should also learn to deal with upstream projects :p |
| 10:31 | marcopg | tomeu: that's probably a long term hope ;) |
| 10:32 | tomeu | sure, but we should start one day ;) |
| 10:32 | Gregorio | I'll try to teach him as best I can, I've exchanged e-mails with Marc and Martin S, hopefully we can figure it out. No definite action items for anyone here but me. Advice still welcome. |
| 10:32 | dsd_ | heh, we need to send tomeu to a deployment ;) |
| 10:33 | Gregorio | I'm backing slowly out of the room now. I have to create a presentation for support gang |
| 10:33 | ttyl | |
| 10:33 | tomeu | dsd_: no need, I can just write blurbs in trac ;) |
| 10:34 | marcopg | Gregorio: this is something we should discuss at Sugarcamp btw |
| 10:34 | i.e. how to properly escalate problems to upstream processes, ensure they stay involved as much as we can etc | |
| 10:35 | tomeu | oops |
| 10:35 | reuben already reassigned the ticket to me 2 days ago | |
| 10:35 | heh | |
| 10:36 | Gregorio: we can talk about bossed whenever you want | |
| 10:36 | Gregorio | he asked me first and I suggested you, but I'll figure out how to get it to Marc or Martin S. if that's what we need |
| 10:37 | that's why I'm hear to check and I think I have my answer | |
| 10:37 | marcopg | I think it's good that an OLPC employee owns the ticket actually |
| 10:37 | community developers can't be hold accountable for our deployment problems | |
| 10:38 | tomeu | Gregorio: first step is to see if there' memory pressure and which process is causing it, then we'll better know who should own it |
| 10:39 | marcopg | (but whoever owns the ticket should work with upstream obviously...) |
| 10:39 | tomeu | I think that support should be able to do some of these tests to better triage |
| 10:39 | Gregorio | I think I got it, I'll keep Tomeu in the loop, run it by Reuben and Kim, ask for more info from the customer, then get it to AbiWord if we have a real and reproducible problem |
| 10:40 | marcopg | Gregorio: sounds like a good plan! |
| 10:40 | Gregorio | shouldn't be more than 15 e-mails and three phone call, no problem :-) |
| 10:40 | just kidding, I'm on it, thanks for your help | |
| 10:40 | marcopg | heh hopefully it will require less once we start working like that for more tickets ;) |
| 10:50 | tomeu | erikos: some examples for the diagram: |
| 10:50 | http://linuxdevices.com/files/[…]mae-arch-diag.gif | |
| 10:50 | http://arstechnica.com/news.me[…]limo_platform.png | |
| 10:50 | http://www.access-company.com/[…]chitecture_en.gif | |
| 10:50 | http://inkscape.org/doc/architecture.png | |
| 10:50 | http://weblog.infoworld.com/te[…]chitecture_Sm.gif | |
| 10:51 | erikos: just make sure it looks as much as possible to a fried egg | |
| 10:51 | erikos | tomeu: :) |
| 10:51 | tomeu | that's our architectural goal |
| 10:53 | marcopg | is the meeting done? |
| 10:54 | erikos | yes |
| 10:54 | marcopg | #stopmeeting |
| 10:56 | ooops | |
| 10:56 | #endmeeting |
![http://linuxdevices.com/files/[…]mae-arch-diag.gif](http://linuxdevices.com/files/misc/gmae-arch-diag.gif){kind=link}
![http://arstechnica.com/news.me[…]limo_platform.png](http://arstechnica.com/news.media/limo_platform.png){kind=link}
![http://www.access-company.com/[…]chitecture_en.gif](http://www.access-company.com/img/prod/linux/ALP_architecture_en.gif){kind=link}
![http://weblog.infoworld.com/te[…]chitecture_Sm.gif](http://weblog.infoworld.com/techwatch/archives/Android_architecture_Sm.gif){kind=link}