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#sugar-meeting, 2019-11-06

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19:58 Quozl #startmeeting
19:58 meeting Meeting started Wed Nov  6 19:58:11 2019 UTC. The chair is Quozl. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:58 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
20:00 Quozl #topic quorum seeking mode
20:00 samsong Hello everyone
20:01 MrBIOS hello
20:02 Quozl #agreed we have james, samson, and alex.  quorum not achieved yet.
20:03 walterbender: are you here?
20:05 walterbender hi
20:06 Quozl #agreed we have walter, james, samson, and alex. quorum achieved.
20:06 any topics for today's agenda?  i'll report on sugar development and infra.
20:06 walterbender I will ping Devin and Claudia -- we had a time change...
20:06 GCI
20:07 Quozl okay, i'll go first.
20:07 #topic sugar development and infrastructure
20:07 MrBIOS good topic :)
20:08 Quozl Sugar development is myself and Ibiam.  No others.  Infrastructure broken is translate.sugarlabs.org.  activities.sugarlabs.org is likely compromised now given a PHP in the wild attack vector.
20:09 llaske <llaske!~lionel@2a01cb00074daf002972d7517bc​cfdb1.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr> has joined #sugar-meeting
20:09 Quozl We don't have the people to fix LDAP or respond to Wiki account requests, as far as I've seen in the past week while I was travelling.
20:09 That's all I had to say about the topic.
20:09 llaske Hi, Sorry thought it was one hour later due to DST
20:09 walterbender has handled the wiki
20:09 samsong has quit IRC
20:10 Quozl walterbender: please use a reply to the mailing list so we know it is done?
20:10 walterbender OK.
20:10 I didn't want to spam
20:10 MrBIOS Quozl: I can fix translate.sugarlabs.org, and scan ASLO.
20:10 Quozl MrBIOS: thanks.
20:10 #topic GCI
20:11 walterbender We have a plethora of mentors
20:11 samsong <samsong!~androirc@> has joined #sugar-meeting
20:11 walterbender Lots of experience through GSoC and previous GCI participants
20:11 Claudia_ <Claudia_!~webchat@> has joined #sugar-meeting
20:11 Claudia_ Hi everyonee
20:11 walterbender We were also asked by Stephanie to help with a new org.
20:11 samsong Hello
20:12 Quozl llaske: meeting is advertised on the wiki for 20 UTC, so my guess is devin made simple mistake of recording the meeting time in local time.
20:12 walterbender So I invited two additional people, who will focus on tasks to expand our Pippy lessons
20:12 llaske Quozl: thanks to ping me
20:12 walterbender they work on teaching programming
20:13 Quozl walterbender: as usual i'm concerned that we have many mentors who have not significantly contributed to the projects we run.  they aren't good role models for students.
20:13 walterbender Next up, defining tasks
20:14 MrBIOS Quozl: I share the same concern, and have voiced it to walterbender
20:14 llaske Quozl: really? Who accept them?
20:14 Quozl mind you, we're great at multiplying those sort of mentors.  ;-)
20:14 walterbender I have turned away a lot of people
20:14 MrBIOS yep, you mentioned that, and it’s good to hear
20:14 walterbender but I accept GSoC and GCI contributors
20:15 llaske May be we could ask to each mentor to list its contribution to SugarLabs in a Wiki page
20:15 walterbender I asked that and some have already done that.
20:16 llaske walterbender: GSoC contributors = GSoC student ?
20:16 walterbender yes
20:16 llaske sounds fair
20:16 Quozl any other topics?
20:16 walterbender I actually turned down of a few GSoC students who didn't live up to our expectations
20:16 no need to mention names.
20:17 We should ack that we have money in the bank
20:17 Quozl walterbender: as you've captured named in public using the wiki, i imagine they have accepted their names will be removed in public.
20:17 walterbender MrBIOS, anything else we need to do on that front
20:17 Quozl #topic Sugar Labs, Inc
20:18 Claudia_ walterbender: we may organize a follow up meeting with the group from England
20:18 Quozl MrBIOS: did you get a reply form Bradley or SFC after you suggested pique?
20:19 Claudia_ they are interested in developing a music project... but it would be good to understand better the ideas they have in mind
20:19 Quozl MrBIOS: last i saw was Bradley suggesting they would pay at the latest date they could.
20:19 MrBIOS Quozl: nothing, as suspected. The money that was agreed to be transferred to Sugar Labs, Inc. in the form of a grant from SFC, has been deposited, and the funds should clear within a day. As the first order of financial business on that side, I have scheduled a bill pay for the lawyer, Kyle Mitchell, who has mitchell
20:19 …who has sent us a bill a couple of weeks ago.
20:19 walterbender we should pay him
20:20 Quozl do you have quorum here enough in the new org to agree to pay?
20:20 (if not enough of you here, defer it to outside the old org's meeting ... ;-)
20:21 MrBIOS I move that we approve payment of bill sl-2019-10-1 in the amount of $2,338 for legal services already rendered, to Kyle Mitchell.
20:21 walterbender seconded
20:21 llaske +1
20:21 samsong +1
20:21 Claudia_ +1
20:21 walterbender +1
20:21 MrBIOS that settles that then, he should be paid Friday/Monday.
20:21 Quozl abstain, i'm not in the org.  carried.  will write up.
20:22 #agreed Motion 2019-28; pay bill SL-2019-10-1 in the amount $2338 for legal services rendered by Kyle Mitchell.
20:23 any other topics?
20:23 MrBIOS I would like to address the release processes for new Sugar Labs releases, if we can.
20:23 walterbender I have a related topic...
20:24 samsong I met with Peter Robinson
20:24 Some days back in France
20:25 Quozl #topic release processes
20:25 MrBIOS Currently, we are at release 0.116, which is technically an unstable release. I propose we release 0.117 ASAP, and would like to propose it be Sugar version 1.0, unless there is a technical reason for why that’s not possible.
20:25 Quozl go ahead.
20:25 why is 0.116 a technically unstable release?
20:25 walterbender finally...
20:26 llaske +1 MrBIOS !
20:26 MrBIOS Also, all of the releases since 0.112 have not followed the same release documentation process on the wiki, and I would like to return to that practice.
20:26 See https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/0.112
20:27 if we need to conscript a new wiki team person to work on documentation, let’s do it
20:27 pikurasa <pikurasa!~devin@fsf/member/pikurasa> has joined #sugar-meeting
20:27 Quozl welcome, devin.
20:27 MrBIOS the page at https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]ment_Team/Release still says 0.114 is an “upcoming release” for instance.
20:27 and there is no wiki page for 0.114, or 0.116
20:27 pikurasa hi
20:28 MrBIOS hi pikurasa, the current topic of discussion is the Sugar release process. I just said “Currently, we are at release 0.116, which is technically an unstable release. I propose we release 0.117 ASAP, and would like to propose it be Sugar version 1.0, unless there is a technical reason for why that’s not possible.”
20:28 Quozl: in our versioning system, odd numbered releases were development releases.
20:29 that decision is as old as Sugar Labs is
20:29 Quozl so there are two elements to this; a dislike of version numbers, and despite the wiki being de-emphasised in favour of github, we're now wanting to bring it back?
20:29 MrBIOS and we obviously had nothing to do with it
20:30 FreddieNGCI Hi 👋
20:30 pikurasa I do not want to get myself between developers and their versioning preferences :o
20:30 MrBIOS I think there may be a mis-understanding about to what extent the wiki being “de-emphasized” was an official policy, but I wasn’t on the board when that particular decision was made.
20:31 but it’s subject to reasonable debate.
20:31 Quozl do go on.
20:31 MrBIOS I don’t believe there was ever agreement that the wiki should just be left to rot forever, correct me if I am wrong other SLOBs
20:33 eohomegrownapps hi
20:34 Quozl welcome visitors FreddieNGCI and eohomegrownapps.
20:34 Claudia_ welcome
20:34 satellit any ideas about the retirement of python 2...do we request it not disappear?
20:34 eohomegrownapps (do let me know if there is any progress / updates regarding the England group / music project)
20:34 FreddieNGCI +1
20:34 eohomegrownapps hi Quozl
20:35 llaske Hi FreddieNGCI and eohomegrownapps
20:35 MrBIOS satellit: that will happen in Fedora 32 unless we specifically request an exemption, but the question is, do we need to do that? I don’t think we do at this point, we have Sugar working with Python 3, as of 0.116
20:35 walterbender eohomegrownapps, I reached out to them... Claudia_ has more recent news.
20:35 Quozl 0.116 was released as unstable because we were asked to facilitate that by peter, but he ended up not using it.
20:35 walterbender F31 python command is Python 3 :)
20:35 pikurasa you can record me as a +! on http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]9:58:11#i_2970170
20:35 *+1
20:35 satellit ok just asking  (fedora-qa)
20:35 FreddieNGCI Hi llaske
20:36 eohomegrownapps hi llaske
20:36 Quozl welcome visitor satellit.
20:37 MrBIOS As part of the re-birth of Sugar Labs, I would like to move that we release Sugar version 1.0 (or 0.117), derived from 0.116 with any important but trivial fixes that may or may not have been released since 0.116 was, which was made back on September 4th. I realize this is largely a formality, but I still think it should happen.
20:37 walterbender good marketing possibilities
20:37 MrBIOS then, we can get 0.117 packaged for Fedora 32, which is actively being worked on now, with F31 having been shipped a couple of weeks ago.
20:37 satellit +1
20:38 Quozl satellit: python org has withdrawn support for python 2 at a future date, and the only people willing to support it are doing so commercially, so there's no opportunity for cheap projects like fedora to purchase that support.  philosophical objection to paying for software when the org relies on open source licenses.
20:39 MrBIOS As a reminder, Python 2.7 will not be maintained past January 2020, in other words, less than two months from now. it is End-of-Lifed by the Python Software Foundation
20:39 all versions of Sugar prior to 0.116 were written in Python 2.
20:40 samsong I agree with MrBIOS, I think we should approach the v1 as a rebirth
20:40 Quozl 98% of activities are written in python 2, so this is really the end of sugar unless paid support is available.
20:40 walterbender GCI kids can do that
20:40 MrBIOS walterbender: exactly. That’s where we need to focus next, porting all remaining packaged (by Fedora, and then even more broadly) activities to Python 3.
20:40 Quozl no, they can't.
20:41 walterbender why not?
20:41 MrBIOS Quozl: some of them probably can.
20:41 walterbender we need to document the process... it cannot be so difficult
20:41 Quozl it is documented.
20:41 i just don't think they can or will do it.
20:42 MrBIOS Quozl: is there a list of our core activities which are _not_ ported to python3 yet?
20:42 walterbender then if it is beyond the likes of eohomegrownapps we have a real problem
20:42 MrBIOS if not, how difficult would it be to come up with one?
20:42 walterbender Quozl, they have done it in the past and we can focus on it this year.
20:42 Quozl i very much doubt anything will be done.
20:43 satellit fyi on wiki: https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Fedora_32
20:43 MrBIOS noted, but I would also like to say I think you’re being overly pessismistic.
20:43 walterbender I will make it my goal to surprise you
20:44 Quozl making lists doesn't achieve anything. search the code for "import gtk" is enough to find the gtk 2 activities, and search for "sugar-activity " is enough to find the python 2 activities.
20:44 FreddieNGCI Quozl last year I believe Alejandro, who was a GCI student, did a lot of porting work with GTK
20:45 walterbender yes...
20:45 pikurasa My son is throwing up again and I need to go to the store to buy some stuff
20:45 I trust you will work out release numbers
20:45 eohomegrownapps I think it's doable by dedicated GCI students
20:45 pikurasa has quit IRC
20:45 walterbender eohomegrownapps, we'll make it happen
20:46 MrBIOS Is anyone here _opposed_ to releaseing “v1.0” of Sugar (python3)? Quozl?
20:46 Claudia_ how many activities?
20:46 Quozl MrBIOS: i think it is a waste of effort to increment a release number when there's nothing materially different.  sugar has wasted away with the lack of developers over the last few years.
20:46 eohomegrownapps (on a similar note, another thing I was thinking is that it might be nice to refactor / clean up some of the larger js files in Music Blocks - could be a task series)
20:48 walterbender +1
20:48 MrBIOS Quozl: I can understand how you would perceive this as “busy work” or hand-waving or whatever, however I don’t think it’s a waste. It’s simply adhering to the release process that Sugar Labs has always had. 0.116 is an unstable release.
20:48 Quozl i don't like fabricating release numbers.  it's too much like marketing.
20:49 walterbender I was thinking we should adopt more of a model/view approach <-- eohomegrownapps
20:49 llaske In my opinion, v1.0 is just a marketing decision. Sean Daly (from the old marketing team) told us several times in the past
20:49 MrBIOS Quozl:  we have to do _more_ marketing, not less, if we want Sugar Labs to survive.
20:49 llaske: I don’t disagree, but “python 3 support” seems as reasonable a place to make the cut as any other.
20:50 eohomegrownapps walterbender, +1
20:50 walterbender here is a "marketing/Python3" idealet
20:50 I just did a fresh install of F31
20:51 in the process I saw the Linux "App Store"
20:51 the edu section is nice but we could load it up with Stand-alone Sugar apps.
20:51 eohomegrownapps (part of the task could be investigating / comparing the merits of different design patterns, a worthwhile activity in itself)
20:52 MrBIOS walterbender: yep we could, and I’ve had the same thought, but there may be technical reasons why that may be difficult or impossible.
20:52 walterbender Lots run independent of Sugar and we could polish that up
20:52 MrBIOS good point
20:52 Quozl martin has been doing flatpak work.
20:52 MrBIOS Quozl: cool.
20:52 walterbender I think again, if we document the process well, GCI could be a resource.
20:53 and it would reflect well if all the best apps in the app store are Sugar apps...
20:53 satellit any way to get a flatpack of sugar with python 2 in soas ? (silverblue)
20:54 walterbender no se
20:54 satellit https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]ora_32#Silverblue
20:54 like endless os
20:54 walterbender yes
20:54 MrBIOS the amount of time we have to do anything for F32 is measured in days, weeks, max.
20:55 walterbender some endless (and former endless) people have been helping
20:55 satellit +1
20:55 perrie <perrie!~perrie@> has joined #sugar-meeting
20:55 walterbender F32 should be small and stable
20:55 MrBIOS guys, we’ve gotten way off track here.
20:56 Quozl i've a meeting at 21 UTC, so i'm about to pull out.
20:56 walterbender MrBIOS, what specific work needs to be done?
20:56 MrBIOS llaske: we don’t have a functional marketing team, so it’s up to us to decide whether Python 3 support = Sugar 1.0
20:56 apathy or indecision n the matter isn’t helpful
20:56 on
20:56 Quozl: ck
20:56 ack
20:57 walterbender I think a solid Python-3 only Sugar for F32 (my preference to call it 1.0) is the way to go
20:57 llaske MrBIOS: It's why I think If we decide to release Sugar 1.0, we don't have to wait for a specific feature
20:57 walterbender what needs to happen to make that happen?
20:58 MrBIOS basically Quozl has to tag and release it, or someone else can, but I’m not sure anyone is trained to do so. I could certainly try, but I’d rather not when it’s fairly low effort, but I’m not the master of James’ time :)
20:59 as a matter of process, we should definitely have another person trained who is capable of making releases. The bus factor here is high.
20:59 walterbender the tagging is easy enough
20:59 bus factor? buzz?
21:00 MrBIOS bus factor as in, what happens if $person were to get hit by a bus. It’s a “business continuity” issue
21:00 what organizational/institutional knowledge would we lose?
21:01 walterbender oh. that bus...
21:01 I know how to make a release on GH but don't know how to hand it off to Fedora
21:02 MrBIOS that’s a different (packaging) problem, not actually related to “making a release"
21:02 satellit peter robinson ?
21:03 MrBIOS yes, currently, though he has voiced waning interest in continuing to be the packager for Sugar, and I think we should try to take it over, if we want SoaS to live.
21:03 Quozl if you're successful in finding a way around me, then you don't need me, so that's good for me.
21:03 MrBIOS Quozl: if it’s not too much to ask, we would be appreciative if you would do it, simply because it’s probably the easiest for you to do.
21:03 but if you don’t have the time, that’s completely understandable.
21:04 Quozl but do what?  where's the plan?
21:04 MrBIOS make a stable release, based on 0.116, versioned as 1.0. That’s literally it.
21:05 Quozl what a waste.
21:05 MrBIOS personally, I would like to see Sugar Labs be responsible for building Sugar rpms and .debs ,moving forward, but obviously that requires a commitment of resources.
21:06 Quozl i don't think 0.116 is good enough.
21:06 MrBIOS okay, let’s discuss that then, specifically. I want to know why. I understand you have to go for now
21:06 Quozl my other meeting seems to be delayed.  it could begin at any time.
21:06 MrBIOS okay. I’m all ears then.
21:07 Quozl mainly it isn't good enough because rahul and aniket's port was tentative and automated, and there was no test coverage other than "does it start?"
21:07 MrBIOS Let me ask you this…compared to, say, 0.114, or 0.112, do you consider 0.116 inferior, quality-wise?
21:08 Quozl yes, 0.116 is inferior to 0.114, due to the python 3 port.
21:09 MrBIOS it does not appear to suffer from any major operating flaws, compared to 0.114, in the testing I’ve done
21:09 walterbender What specifically do we need to do to improve that port?
21:09 Quozl you did testing?  i didn't know.  did you use python-coverage?
21:10 MrBIOS I did not use python-coverage, I tested your ISO. obviously activity compatibility is the biggest big-picture issue.
21:10 but that can be worked through with subsequent releases.
21:10 pikurasa <pikurasa!~devin@fsf/member/pikurasa> has joined #sugar-meeting
21:11 pikurasa I am back and read log
21:12 Quozl we're over our allocated time.  i'm not sure if it is the will of the meeting to continue this discussion.
21:12 MrBIOS I’m not sure either. I’d be happy to test 0.116 with python-coverage if there’s a tutorial on how to do so.
21:12 walterbender we can end the meeting and then continue the discussion
21:13 pikurasa walterbender: That sounds good.
21:13 Quozl all in favour of ending the formal meeting?
21:13 +1
21:13 MrBIOS +1
21:13 walterbender +1
21:13 samsong +1
21:13 llaske +1
21:13 Claudia_ +1
21:13 pikurasa If anyone wants my perspective as a total novice, feel free to ask.
21:13 Quozl #endmeeting
21:13 MrBIOS pikurasa: please :)
21:13 meeting Meeting ended Wed Nov  6 21:13:36 2019 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
21:13 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-06T19:58:11.html
21:13 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]19-11-06T19:58:11
21:14 pikurasa Walking back, after getting Kai's Apple Juice (all he can drink right now), I thought...
21:14 what if we Apple just released an iPhone 0.116?
21:14 It sounds unfinished
21:15 MrBIOS the Apple fanboys would probably want to play with it, but I agree.
21:15 pikurasa It would be nice to get to a 1.0
21:16 I mean Sugar is suppose to be a little unfinished, but... to some people it signals that it is not ready to be used
21:16 MrBIOS samsong:  would you mind sharing more about your discussion with Peter Robinson?
21:17 Peter Robinson is primarily focused on ARM-related Fedora stuff these days, and has very little interest and/or time for maintaining Sugar packages for Fedora any longer. It’s a thankless job, and he’s been doing it a long time.
21:18 pikurasa Also, I was confused with the number when I first saw it. It looks like a low number -- now version 116, but more like "9 more years until version 1"
21:18 ok, those are my two cents
21:19 MrBIOS we could also release version 1.16 ;)
21:19 pikurasa My son is ordering me to sit with him
21:19 MrBIOS 1.17 rather
21:19 better follow orders then :)
21:19 pikurasa Thank you for all your work, everyone!
21:19 Quozl Peter doesn't even test what he writes, he's that short of time.
21:19 pikurasa has quit IRC
21:20 MrBIOS Quozl: I am aware, and while I appreciate the time he does give us, it’s a problem, and I would like to see it fixed. it’s within our power to do so. We have members of the community who are capable of doing this type of work.
21:20 Quozl MrBIOS: doubt if anybody is standing in the way, except for Peter.
21:20 MrBIOS I think it would also make sense to pay someone competent to set up a CI test environment for Sugar.
21:21 samsong I met him briefly, he mentioned he is interested in mentoring someone from the community
21:21 satellit as usual I am available as a tester only...
21:21 samsong That we will soon drop support for Sugar, I think he mentioned December or January
21:21 Quozl satellit: did you test sugar live build?
21:21 samsong *he
21:22 satellit I have been testing the rawhide and f31 builds in kogi
21:22 MrBIOS The current Fedora rawhide (will become F31) ISO can be downloaded at https://dl.fedoraproject.org/p[…]-20191106.n.0.iso
21:23 samsong The main conversation was around his timing, and how some people in the SL community is unresponsive
21:23 satellit also the remixes of f31
21:23 MrBIOS and https://dl.fedoraproject.org/p[…]06.n.0-sda.raw.xz for RPi3
21:23 samsong He also mentioned you and him was supposed to work on something.
21:24 MrBIOS samsong: yep, I’m one of those people who is frankly contributing to the problem, due to lack of time and personal family issues.
21:24 satellit I have a rpi3b+ and rpi4 4 gb and test releases in fedora
21:24 Claudia_ has quit IRC
21:25 samsong So I told him Ibiam is interested, and he said, he is interested to work with Ibiam or anyone within the community.
21:26 MrBIOS yes, I was thinking Ibiam specifically as well. He is a good candidate, provided he is interested and willing to spend the time on it
21:26 satellit respins here f30 and f31: https://drive.google.com/drive[…]PI7QYjDFuWelLm6ov
21:26 Quozl well, i think sugar live build is worth doing, because we don't have to stuff around with all that fedora process, so i'll keep doing it even if nobody wants to test it.
21:27 satellit thanks
21:28 Quozl at least sugar live build is _tested_ before releasing.  same can't be said for fedora.
21:29 satellit Quozl: link for live build?
21:29 samsong walterbender, I had a chat with the GM of Open Source Initiative with Perrie while at OSSUmmit. He mentioned there is a school using Sugar.
21:30 Somewhere in DC or New York, I can't remember the city
21:30 Quozl https://lmgtfy.com/?q=%22sugar+live+build%22&s=g
21:30 satellit thanks
21:34 MrBIOS samsong: if it’s DC, the high school instrutor we met at PyCon 2019 may know the people involved.
21:35 he’s from northern Virginia, just across the river from DC>
21:35 samsong I will track the person down.
21:39 satellit Quozl added ref to live build to wiki (f32)
21:40 walterbender jeff patmore?
21:41 satellit https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]#Sugar_live_build
21:43 Quozl satellit: why?  it has nothing to do with fedora 32.
21:46 satellit just so I can find it...:/
21:46 have to go  afk...thanks all
21:50 samsong Michelle McColgan
21:51 FLOSS Desktops For kids project
21:51 Heard of it
21:51 ?
21:51 MrBIOS nope, never, but that’s hardly surprising
21:52 samsong I think we should work with her, she has done some Research, lesson plans.
21:52 MrBIOS you met Michelle? Was she aware of Sugar Labs?
21:52 samsong I met with Patrick from OSI, OSI support the FLOSS Desktop
21:52 Michelle runs the program in a school
21:58 MrBIOS ok. This is her, https://www.siena.edu/faculty-[…]michele-mccolgan/
21:59 I doubt there are two women by the same name at the same university :)
22:10 samsong Yes that her
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