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#sugar-meeting, 2019-06-07

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Time Nick Message
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11:09 pikurasa hi walterbender
11:09 I do not see Sparsh or Fakela
11:09 walterbender hmm
11:09 I pinged Fakela
11:09 meeting <meeting!~sugaroid@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
11:09 pikurasa Or is sum2it Sparsh?
11:09 I forget...
11:10 walterbender sum2it is a mentor and sparsh is a mentee
11:10 sparsh fixed a few more things in the phrase maker
11:10 but ws not a super productive week for either of them as far as I can tell.
11:12 pikurasa I will fetch changes
11:14 I do not see new commits from Fakela.... what did she do?
11:17 fakela <fakela!~androirc@> has joined #sugar-meeting
11:17 walterbender She got promises working inside block.js
11:17 but she can tell you herself :)
11:17 fakela Hello
11:17 Sorry for arriving in late
11:18 Was setting up my laptop
11:18 walterbender fakela, can you please make a PR from your changes to block.js?
11:18 fakela Yes sure I will today
11:18 My laptop is back to normal
11:18 walterbender great.
11:19 and fakela, as we discussed, I think the next step is to look at blocks.js
11:19 fakela Okay
11:19 walterbender Two things happen there (well more than two):
11:19 (1) the blocks are connected
11:20 (2) the result of the connections is that some blocks need to be reshaped.
11:20 so, for example, when I add a second pitch to a note block, the note block has to expand.
11:20 (there are several types of expandable blocks)
11:21 fakela Ok
11:21 walterbender and lots of cascading
11:21 and much of this is handled with timeouts that should be promises.
11:21 so please take a look and perhaps get back to me with a plan of where you think we need to add promises first.
11:22 fakela Okay will push the code i just wrote first
11:22 Then look at the block.js
11:22 walterbender blocks.js, plural :P
11:23 fakela Okay note taken
11:23 And look into where promises should be added
11:23 walterbender fakela, I don't recall if I do this, but if not, we should track in block.js (singular) how many "slots" a clamp block has.
11:24 Because I have a feeling we update artwork even when the number of slots does not change.
11:24 something to check on.
11:24 I am sure we do much more updating than we need to.
11:24 fakela On the artwork
11:24 walterbender yes
11:25 fakela Okay
11:25 Will check on it
11:25 sum2it <sum2it!uid281472@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-ykyjpqyzoxwoslwe> has joined #sugar-meeting
11:26 sum2it Hi, I'm Sumit. Just saw Devin's mail.
11:26 fakela Hello
11:27 pikurasa sum2it: it is okay. Sparsh is not here...
11:27 sum2it Hi fakela , any unanswered questions that you want help with?
11:27 pikurasa: oh
11:28 Any updates from Ankur? pikurasa
11:28 fakela None for now but i know i would have later
11:28 sum2it I've not yet seen any conversation from Ankur yet
11:28 pikurasa sum2it: No, I do not know Ankur's status
11:29 fakela: this is your repo, right? https://github.com/fakela/musicblocks/
11:29 sum2it Alright I guess I can leave now, right,m
11:29 fakela Yeah... I haven't pushed my current change cause my pc crashed
11:29 Its back now
11:30 Will push my changes today
11:30 pikurasa fakela: ok
11:30 looking forward to it
11:30 I need to go now
11:30 Thanks for the meeting
11:30 fakela Sure
11:30 pikurasa Spash's changes are big improvement, btw (just checked it)
11:31 walterbender yes
11:31 I think we are about to the point we can merge his PR
11:32 pikurasa walterbender: I think he was working on tuplets
11:32 pikurasa has quit IRC
11:33 walterbender OK. I am going to be off line for a bit while I make my way into Cambridge.
11:33 thanks everyone.
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19:59 pikurasa hi all
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19:59 Quozl hi.
20:00 #startmeeting
20:00 meeting Meeting started Fri Jun  7 20:00:04 2019 UTC. The chair is Quozl. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:00 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
20:00 Quozl who have we here?
20:00 pikurasa kemitchell: why are you here?
20:00 MrBIOS pikurasa: he was invited :)
20:00 pikurasa everyone kemitchell: is the lawyer that we are considering for the operating agreement
20:01 kemitchell Alex invited me to join. I am the lawyer Devin and Alex have been in touch with about representing the project in its departure from SFC.
20:01 walterbender hi
20:01 kemitchell Hello.
20:02 MrBIOS kemitchell: thank you for taking the time to join us, I figured it would be a good venue for asking a few questions. We have one remaining vote to be cast before I sign our engagement letter, and Claudia should be with us shortly.
20:02 kemitchell I won't be leading conversation or otherwise disrupting the flow of the meeting. I'm in here in case questions come up.
20:02 Quozl so far; we have myself, devin, walter, alex.  we don't have lionel, samson, and claudia.
20:03 pikurasa Ok, but when we have a vote (i.e. complete the vote) on the OA, I think kemitchell should leave
20:03 thanks Quozl
20:03 walterbender I had not heard that anyone was *not* coming
20:04 MrBIOS walterbender: samson is coming, I just spoke to him
20:04 kemitchell I'm glad to /leave whenever the board prefers.
20:04 MrBIOS pikurasa: given that the logs of these meetings are public record, I don’t think that makes much sense :)
20:04 walterbender :)
20:04 llaske Hi, sorry
20:05 MrBIOS hi, Lionel
20:05 samsongoddy <samsongoddy!~samsongod@> has joined #sugar-meeting
20:05 Quozl i've sent messages to samson, lionel, and claudia.  i've a response from samson.  as chair, i've no problem with kyle remaining, as the meeting is public.  if any member of the board wants to make that decision in private, we won't make it now at this meeting, but by e-mail.
20:06 samsongoddy Hello, sorry for coming late
20:06 Lost track of time
20:06 pikurasa hi samsongoddy
20:06 kemitchell Quozl: Thanks for mentioning you hold chair. To be clear: I'm here just in case the group finds it useful to have me. Happy to /join and /leave whenever. Feel free to /msg me
20:07 Claudia <Claudia!~webchat@rev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting
20:07 Quozl so everyone is here bar claudia.  i'll now take proposals for agenda, as we had no prior agenda.  our standing agenda is on the wiki page.
20:07 Claudia: welcome.
20:07 Claudia hello
20:07 pikurasa Claudia: ih
20:07 Claudia thanks
20:07 pikurasa *hi
20:07 walterbender nothing pressing on my end... just lots of nice press on MB in Japan :)
20:08 links added in the News page of the wiki
20:08 pikurasa https://edtechzine.jp/article/detail/1802
20:08 samsongoddy awesome
20:08 pikurasa for example
20:08 Quozl kemitchell: welcome as visitor.  you may speak at any time pertinent to the agenda item at hand.
20:08 kemitchell Quozl: Noted. Thank you.
20:09 MrBIOS2 <MrBIOS2!~default@2601:645:100:d390:b9cc:1e75:5fa7:a625> has joined #sugar-meeting
20:09 Claudia congrats, pikurasa + walterbender
20:09 MrBIOS2 hello folks, I've switched machines to a more reliable connection :)
20:09 Quozl any proposals to discuss something?
20:10 pikurasa Quozl: well we should finish discussing and voting the OA
20:10 Quozl okay, i'll move onto the standing agenda.  pikurasa; are you wanting to discuss that in private?
20:10 Claudia I can talk about my recent visit to Paraguay
20:10 pikurasa It is okay Quozl ...whatever
20:11 Quozl #topic pending motions from e-mail, an agreement proposal
20:11 proceed, pikurasa.
20:11 pikurasa Okay, so we have a few votes in for the OA. What is the current number?
20:11 4, it seems
20:12 Claudia walterbender: I have a book from Pacita
20:12 walterbender whom are we missing?
20:12 Quozl four in favour.  one question.  one no answer.
20:12 walterbender that adds up to six
20:12 pikurasa Claudia: is question. Who is no answer?
20:13 Claudia + 1
20:13 I chat with Alex
20:14 pikurasa Is James the one with no answer?
20:14 Or am I just not seeing it on the email chain?
20:14 Quozl Claudia: thanks, i acknowledge +1, that makes five in favour.  my vote is missing.  i vote against.  the motion is carried.
20:14 MrBIOS2 Claudia, if you could respond to the e-mail thread with +1, I'd like to make sure we have it all on the record in one place.
20:15 nitpicky I know, but :)
20:15 Claudia MrBIOS2: I did
20:15 MrBIOS2 nevermind, I just saw it :D
20:15 Quozl #agreed we execute an agreement to engage with Kyle Mitchel, attorney, for the purposes of setting up a 501(c)3 non-profit for Sugar Labs.
20:16 MrBIOS2 kemitchell, I've sent you the requested names and e-mail addresses via e-mail, as previously requested.
20:16 Claudia what's new/going on in Paraguay?
20:16 Quozl thanks for working through this everyone.  i shall support the work; solidarity.
20:16 pikurasa The OA is for creating a roadmap to creating NPO, to be specific
20:16 kemitchell MrBIOS2: Thank you. I see the group agreed without questions. Should I stick around here in the channel, or be on my way?
20:16 pikurasa not for the formation itself
20:17 walterbender kemitchell, is there anything you need from us at this stage?
20:17 pikurasa kemitchell: When do you plan to have this done by?
20:17 MrBIOS2 walterbender, just eSignatures.
20:17 up to you, does anyone here have any general questions for Kyle while he's here? They can always be sent to me if there's anything you think of later.
20:17 walterbender just want to say, thanks and let's get this done :P
20:17 kemitchell walterbender: Amen.
20:18 pikurasa SFC says that they need to sign a document to say that "although they are making the payments, SFC is not the client"
20:18 Quozl #topic insert; what to publish about the motion
20:18 do i include the agreement?
20:18 MrBIOS2 One thing I want to mention is that I intend to hold off on submitting expenses incurred during my SCaLE and PyCon conference visits _after_ we are fully separated from SFC, whenever that is, unless anyone here has a problem with that.
20:18 kemitchell pikurasa: I mentioned to Alex that I think the engagement letter covers it. But if they come back after we've signed, I can clarify for them.
20:19 MrBIOS2 I wish to minimize back-and-forth with SFC as much as possible.
20:19 Quozl only pikurasa should be dealing with the sfc, as our representative.  he needs to be able to back and forth as much as we need.
20:19 Claudia MrBIOS2: They are working with funding from the Gov on Caacupe, and also in private schools in Asunción... they have Sugar on different machines, but they will soon need to think about the Activities that they want going forward and how they work with SLabs
20:20 pikurasa kemitchell: they asked for it, I think it is simple, and I want to make sure that you get paid as fast as you need to
20:20 kemitchell pikurasa: FWIW, I am not particularly worried about when I get paid. I am more worried about getting an engagement letter in place, so we can start the work.
20:21 samsongoddy Great news Claudia
20:21 pikurasa hmmm... How do I put this: I highly recommend it
20:21 samsongoddy I saw pictures from twitter
20:21 Claudia I suggested a open conversation with Slabs will be great
20:21 MrBIOS2 Claudia that's great, are there any contacts there who might be interested in sharing some more about the specifics with us, via e-mail or on the mailing lists?
20:21 Quozl MrBIOS2: i don't think it is a problem to submit your expenses now, and there's the time limits in the sfc travel policy to worry about.  i'd rather you didn't lose the opportunity; we're somewhat responsible to pay you as you did something on behalf of sugar labs.
20:22 samsongoddy I agree with Quozl
20:22 Because of the 90 days rule
20:23 MrBIOS2 the 90 day rule no longer applies once we are not SFC-affiliated
20:23 Quozl i ask again; do i make the agreement with kyle available to our members (i.e. on our wiki in public).
20:23 Claudia Patricia Escauriza.. she comes to the education meeting sometimes and Mary Gomez
20:23 pikurasa kemitchell: I think we are done with the part of the conversation that pertains to you.
20:24 kemitchell pikurasa: Thank you. I'm available by anyone if there are any further needs.
20:24 kemitchell has left #sugar-meeting
20:24 Quozl the 90 day rule originates from procedures for validation of the claim by referencing current pricing.  yes, we might not have the same rule, but if we had no limit we might be slack.
20:24 MrBIOS2 Quozl I don't see why not, personally.
20:25 I also did not adhere to that policy when I booked the SCaLe lodging, and I drove there instead of flew, to be able to bring stuff and save money. The primary cost was lodging
20:25 and today is the end of the 90 day window
20:25 Quozl well, your decision will be easier.  ;-)
20:26 #topic insert; remaining business with sfc
20:26 MrBIOS2 it will also be a test of how we actually handle such things once we are independent.
20:26 Quozl pikurasa: what open tracking items do we have with sfc?  any progress?  that book?
20:27 walterbender the advice re sugarizer licenses
20:27 Claudia I am sure the 501(c)3 status doesn't need to be granted in order for us to pay the expenses... it could take months
20:27 MrBIOS2 Claudia exactly, I am sure it does not need to be either.
20:27 pikurasa I believe that Samson is waiting about PyCon
20:27 MrBIOS2 months is fine.
20:28 pikurasa I reached out 5/19 and was asked to wait
20:28 MrBIOS2 pikurasa was any reason given?
20:28 pikurasa However, since the original 30 days has passed, it seems to be just time to ask again
20:28 Claudia MrBIOS2: it took 13 for a non-profit I helped create in MA
20:28 llaske walterbender: I will have news about that very shortly, we've worked with a counsel on that
20:28 pikurasa (it was within 30 days)
20:29 Quozl #topic report froom project representative
20:29 pikurasa The ticket was made 5/6. I just sent another message.
20:29 Quozl right, we've done that one,
20:29 MrBIOS2 makes sense.
20:30 Quozl #topic report from membership and elections committee
20:30 a report was made just before last meeting but we didn't receive it.  they are operating fine.
20:30 MrBIOS2 do we have any way of sending "official" communications to our members, other than the IAEP and other mailing lists?
20:30 MrBIOS has quit IRC
20:30 Quozl #topic report from administrators of google summer of code (gsoc)
20:31 walterbender So far so good. One student has dropped out due to visa issues
20:31 Quozl MrBIOS2: we have a list of e-mail addresses, so we could potentially use that.  the membership and elections committee holds the list, but as board member you are entitled to it.
20:31 MrBIOS2 is that list not the one that's on the wiki?
20:31 llaske walterbender: on which project?
20:31 Quozl MrBIOS2: there's no list on the wiki of e-mail addresses, if things went well.
20:31 walterbender llaske, MB unit tests
20:32 MrBIOS2 has quit IRC
20:32 walterbender they seem to be blogging and keeping the devel list updated for the most part
20:32 llaske Sorry to hear
20:32 Quozl walterbender: i did not hear the drop-out was completed.  must have missed it.  github to be updated, i think.
20:32 walterbender some very good work from what I have seen
20:32 MrBIOS2 <MrBIOS2!~default@2601:645:100:d390:b9cc:1e75:5fa7:a625> has joined #sugar-meeting
20:32 llaske Very good start on Sugarizer projects
20:33 walterbender Quozl, I don't know if it is "official" but it is done.
20:33 Quozl my two students are doing stuff, but my gut feel is that they are doing it as a side hustle late at night, and we aren't getting the seven or eight hours a day that google had specified.
20:33 walterbender Quozl, you should call them out on it
20:33 MrBIOS2 Quozl, as I privately noted to you, I share this concern with at least one of them
20:33 Quozl i should, i've been asking for daily reports to encourage them to give me useful input that i can measure.
20:34 llaske Quozl, may be you could give them more ambitious objectives from one week to another
20:34 MrBIOS2 I am also in favor of asking for an explanation, and simply asking bluntly if they really are going to be able to dedicate the time necessary to this.
20:36 pikurasa I recommend to call them out on it early
20:36 Quozl for one of them, they are lost in a maze of twisty little passages; telepathy api.  i'd prefer to wait for them to get through that maze before calling them on it.  but i'm keeping it in mind.
20:36 MrBIOS2 I agree that the learning curve there is steep.
20:36 Quozl for the other, they are concentrating on quality rather than quantity of activities maintained.  he's busy with hyperlink support in sugar terminal.  ;-)
20:37 pikurasa Students who are still learning should be reporting what they are learning, preferably daily
20:37 MrBIOS2 I'd also like to generally ask all SLOBs if there is anything specific you feel has been neglected, and should be an initial focus of Sugar Labs V2, if anything. Personally, I feel we need to do a much better job with outreach, and understanding how our deployed user base actually uses Sugar.
20:37 Quozl i'm asking for and receiving daily reports, with occasional missed reports.
20:38 MrBIOS2: remote data collection of metrics?
20:38 Claudia MrBIOS2: we can beging with Paraguay
20:39 MrBIOS2 Quozl, no, I don't think that's necessary, just understanding who is using what, for what ages, which activities, etc.
20:39 Claudia agreed, it's an obvious first choice. What is the scale of Sugar usage there?
20:40 Quozl #topic next
20:40 what shall we agree to talk about next?
20:40 MrBIOS2 my question above?
20:40 walterbender Turtle Art Day in Uruguay
20:40 MrBIOS2 or that
20:40 Claudia MrBIOS2: 12K in Caacupe and not sure in the city (with private schools)
20:40 Quozl #topic turlte art day in uruguay
20:41 s/turlte/turtle
20:41 walterbender Just a heads up that the MEC is doing a TA Day in October
20:41 their initiative
20:41 Quozl what's the MEC?
20:41 walterbender Ministry of Ed
20:41 Claudia Minister of Education
20:41 walterbender they'd like some SL participation
20:42 Quozl what participation can be get from them?
20:42 walterbender but they would need to rely on us for funding (Trip Advisor)
20:42 If I can carve out the time, I'd be willing to go.
20:42 But that is a big if
20:42 Maybe Artemis Papert?
20:43 Quozl latest TA after the GTK 3 port is very difficult to use with touchscreen in classroom, i downgrade to GTK 2, have you heard of that?
20:43 Claudia I think she will be willing
20:44 Quozl: does OLPC have data of countries still using XOs/Sugar?
20:45 Quozl Claudia: yes, but very limited, as we have lost the personal contacts as our people have left, and the countries have not initiated a contact on the matter.  at the moment olpc is myself, maria, luisa, jimmy, and desire.  jimmy and desire are in rwanda.  maria and luisa in miami.  i'm in australia.
20:46 MrBIOS2 perhaps it would make sense for Sugar Labs to attempt to re-establish those contacts, where possible?
20:46 samsongoddy Claudia, I spoke with Henry from one of the OLPC/SEED school, I heard they still have about 2k laptops
20:46 llaske But Tony talked about thousands of XO in Rwanda
20:46 walterbender It would be nice at least to know what is going on in Nicaragua
20:46 samsongoddy 400,000 in Rwanda
20:47 Claudia thank for the update.. Quozl.
20:47 and yes, what is Nicaragua doing?
20:47 I heard Paraguay has kept coming
20:47 to visit them
20:47 Felix is still there
20:48 Quozl nobody from the countries seems to be contributing source code or bug reports.  i suspect they are either maintaining activities themselves, or not upgrading from known working activities.
20:49 sugar labs did release buggy activities for a while, and that would have burned the relationship.
20:49 Claudia Paraguay has not tech tean
20:49 *team, so they are not updating
20:50 Quozl not updating is the usual method a non-tech team will deploy.  strong social norms and classroom management against downloading new activities.
20:50 Claudia samsongoddy: good... are those machines still working?
20:50 samsongoddy Yes, according to Henry
20:50 I am planning to visit them
20:51 Quozl MrBIOS2: note that our work in gsoc 2019 on python 3 porting is useless to the deployed XO population.  i'm using a "fedora18" branch in each repository to maintain the old code.
20:52 walterbender back to MrBIOS2 question about what we should be doing differently in the reboot... I would say some professional marketing.
20:52 MrBIOS2 Quozl acknowledged.
20:52 in theory there's nothing to prevent Python3 from running on F18, however.
20:52 llaske Ooch :-(
20:53 walterbender Every time I talk about Sugar (most recently at a conference in NYC on Tuesday) people are blown away, but they don't know anything about it.
20:53 MrBIOS2 although that's certainly not the desired route forward :)
20:53 Quozl MrBIOS2: all the dependencies would be needed as well, but technically you are correct.  i'd budget ten engineers for six months to bring the XO population up to current software versions.
20:54 ** time, ladies and gentlemen.  we have five minutes left, any other topics?
20:55 MrBIOS2 nobody has any concerns about things which have been/become neglected over the years? I kinda doubt that
20:55 speak up!
20:55 samsongoddy walterbender, I just had a meeting earlier with the mind Africa folks, they are planning another TA this year
20:55 walterbender nice
20:56 samsongoddy I am going to see that they get all the support they need this time. I will keep the community updated if anything comes up
20:56 walterbender MrBIOS2, I think marketing is our biggest weakness
20:56 across all fronts
20:56 users, developers, etc.
20:56 samsongoddy MrBIOS2, I better structured community engagement too
20:57 Quozl i think our software quality is an issue that marketing will reveal in depth.
20:57 Claudia Strategic path forward will be great
20:57 MrBIOS2 I agree with Quozl on that front, we need to address software quality, and that includes the activities
20:57 walterbender Quozl, chicken and egg to some degree
20:58 lots of regressions for sure
20:58 Quozl walterbender: simultaneous effort required.
20:58 walterbender +1
20:58 it is just hard to get motivated if you don't ever get user feedback
20:58 Quozl but i'm used to hearing "We all have to do better" then silence.  ;-)
20:58 MrBIOS2 I also personally think we need to re-visit re-booting ASLO, I would even go so far as to propose that we hire someone to take ASLO V3 code, evaluate it, and assuming it's deemed suitable, extend it to feature parity with ASLO V1. The current activities server/service is decrepit and unmaintained.
20:58 walterbender I tend to focus where I see user activity
20:58 MrBIOS2 and a horrible user experience,
20:58 Claudia yes. 1. understand who is using to make sure we support those well, 2. establish goals for future so we can fundraise... we can do it all with the people and resources
20:59 MrBIOS2 and we _do_have user activity on the activities server, along with data to back up that claim
20:59 Quozl it's just php, it should be easy to update ASLO V1.  a few CSS tweaks.
20:59 MrBIOS2 it's not just a matter of code, it's a usability disaster, things are mis-categorized, etc etc
20:59 Quozl neither aslo v2 nor aslo v3 have been prepared with the installed base in mind.  they are a bigger job than php tweaks and recategorisation.
21:00 and using categorisation from the activities themselves is not useful, as the activities don't have them and would need maintenance anyway to add them.  ;-)
21:00 MrBIOS2 I am aware of the scope.
21:01 Quozl anyway, our time is up.  i move to close the meeting, all in favour?
21:01 walterbender Quozl, but we had developers enthusiastic about v2 and v3 and not about v1... which IMHO is critical
21:01 I need to go too... +1
21:01 MrBIOS2 +1
21:01 Claudia i need to go to a dif meeting
21:01 llaske +1
21:01 Quozl samsongoddy: ?
21:01 MrBIOS2 thanks, Claudia, llaske
21:01 samsongoddy I need to go to bed
21:01 +1
21:01 Quozl pikurasa: ?
21:01 Claudia bye everyone
21:01 llaske bye
21:01 pikurasa +1
21:01 bye
21:02 Quozl #endmeeting
21:02 walterbender thanks everyone
21:02 meeting Meeting ended Fri Jun  7 21:02:01 2019 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
21:02 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-07T20:00:04.html
21:02 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]19-06-07T20:00:04
21:02 pikurasa Thank you!
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