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| 19:11 | pikurasa | meeting to start soon? |
| 19:11 | meeting | pikurasa: Error: "to" is not a valid command. |
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| 19:30 | MrBIOS | pikurasa: 30 minutes |
| 19:47 | jaskirat <jaskirat!75f26e31gateway/web/freenode/ip.117.242.110.49> has joined #sugar-meeting |
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| 19:51 | walterbender <walterbender!~walter146.115.133.213> has joined #sugar-meeting |
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| 19:51 | walterbender | hola todos |
| 19:52 | pikurasa | hi everyone |
| 19:52 | MrBIOS | hey walter |
| 19:54 | jaskirat | Hi |
| 19:55 | jaskirat__ | Hi |
| 19:58 | MrBIOS | Quozl: around? |
| 19:58 | walterbender: out of curiosity, have you ever used Loomio? | |
| 19:59 | Quozl | yes, we've toyed with loomio, we have an account there. |
| 19:59 | walterbender | MrBIOS, yes... |
| 19:59 | but not so much | |
| 19:59 | I use Slack quite a lot on my Day Job | |
| 19:59 | MrBIOS | they have a 35% discount for non-profits (which, while we are technically not, SFC certainly is). |
| 19:59 | yeah, I use slack for day job too | |
| 20:00 | walterbender | I still prefer IRC. |
| 20:00 | MrBIOS | Quozl: when you say “we” do you mean Sugar Labs, or OLPC? |
| 20:00 | Quozl | standby, i'm hunting the missing board members. |
| 20:00 | llaske: are you here? | |
| 20:00 | MrBIOS | yep, only downside with IRC is no guaranteed message delivery |
| 20:01 | what interests me, specifically, is the decision-making bits of it | |
| 20:01 | walterbender | for Loomio? |
| 20:01 | llaske | hi all |
| 20:02 | walterbender | bon soir |
| 20:02 | samsongoddy <samsongoddy!~samsongod129.56.79.161> has joined #sugar-meeting |
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| 20:02 | Quozl | okay, that's a quorum, starding. samson joining. |
| 20:02 | llaske | :-) |
| 20:02 | Quozl | #startmeeting |
| 20:02 | meeting | Meeting started Fri Apr 5 20:02:15 2019 UTC. The chair is Quozl. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. |
| 20:02 | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting | |
| 20:02 | samsongoddy | Sorry, I lost track of time |
| 20:02 | Quozl | we have here walter, lionel, devin, james, samson, alex, but not claudia. |
| 20:02 | walterbender | I will text her |
| 20:02 | MrBIOS | We seem to have a problem with timely votes on motions, etc, especially via e-mail. Does anyone else disagree? |
| 20:03 | Quozl | please list agenda items? i have texted claudia too. |
| 20:03 | MrBIOS | I guess that should be one of them? :) |
| 20:03 | walterbender | Google Summer of Code |
| 20:03 | Google Documentation program | |
| 20:03 | Kano workshop | |
| 20:03 | MrBIOS | We need 50x activities for Machine Learning for three year olds |
| 20:03 | walterbender | :P |
| 20:03 | jaskirat__ | Cool, seems to be a good start |
| 20:04 | Quozl | i've an item too, which will go first. |
| 20:04 | thanks, noted the other agenda items. | |
| 20:04 | #topic project representative | |
| 20:05 | walterbender | GNOME? |
| 20:05 | pikurasa | Should we decide GNOME advisor rep for next year... or later? |
| 20:05 | Quozl | i resign as project representative to the conservancy. the position is invidious. i don't have the necessary cultural awareness to compensate. please select a replacement now. |
| 20:05 | walterbender | Maybe Mr. Bios? Or pikurasa ? |
| 20:05 | pikurasa | I can do it |
| 20:05 | walterbender | could not handle it either... |
| 20:05 | Quozl | i was thinking llaske or samson would be good. ;-) |
| 20:05 | pikurasa | I am Mr Patient |
| 20:06 | just ask all the parents of my students... Mr Patient | |
| 20:06 | llaske | :-D I will have more cultural issue than you |
| 20:06 | MrBIOS | I do not want to do it, I would do a poor job. Personally, I propose we end our relationship with the conservancy, and become stand-alone. There is precedent for us doing this. |
| 20:06 | or rather, for other projects who wanted more control, having left the orbit of SFC | |
| 20:06 | Quozl | any other offers to do it? someone has to do it even if we become stand-alone. |
| 20:07 | MrBIOS | if we are working towards becoming stand-alone non-profit, I would be happy to do it until that actually happens, otherwise not |
| 20:07 | walterbender | Let's put pikurasa in place first... |
| 20:07 | pikurasa | If my first task is to end the relationship, I am certain that would test my ability to remain patient, but willing to do it if needed |
| 20:07 | walterbender | we'd need a rep to negotiate SFCEXIT in any case |
| 20:07 | Quozl | okay, someone propose a motion? |
| 20:07 | MrBIOS | I personally think it’s in the best interest of Sugar Labs health to end our agreement with SFC. Does anyone else have any opinions on that matter? |
| 20:08 | samsongoddy | I sort of discuss the idea with walter some days back |
| 20:08 | I think we need to move on | |
| 20:08 | walterbender | motion: SLOB appoints Devin Ulibarri to represent us with the SFC. |
| 20:08 | Quozl | seconder please? |
| 20:08 | MrBIOS | seconded. |
| 20:08 | samsongoddy | SFC is great but I don't think SFC and Sugar Labs should continue |
| 20:08 | walterbender | +1 |
| 20:08 | llaske | +1 |
| 20:08 | Quozl | votes? |
| 20:08 | samsongoddy | +1 |
| 20:08 | Quozl | +1 |
| 20:08 | MrBIOS | this is after my in-person discussion with Bradley at the SCaLE conference. |
| 20:08 | pikurasa | is not voting on something for myself |
| 20:08 | jaskirat has quit IRC | |
| 20:08 | jaskirat__ is now known as 21WAAEPBN | |
| 20:08 | MrBIOS | they are simply spread too thin |
| 20:09 | one abstention | |
| 20:09 | Quozl | claudia is missing, pikurasa is abstaining. okay, motion agreed. i'll number it later. |
| 20:09 | #topic google summer of code | |
| 20:09 | MrBIOS | I was just going to ask about Claudia |
| 20:10 | walterbender | I texted her... haven't heard back. |
| 20:10 | re GSoC... | |
| 20:10 | an update: proposals are landing... they need to be in by next week. | |
| 20:11 | We will need to add mentors to the portal to demonstrate we have mentors available | |
| 20:11 | Quozl | i'm amazed at some students, how blind they are to the obvious, how unwilling to read they are. |
| 20:11 | walterbender | once we have slots assigned and agree on which proposals to accept, we can cull the mentor list |
| 20:11 | MrBIOS | Quozl: yes it’s very disappointing, and clearly most of them have never actually used or tried to use Sugar. |
| 20:11 | llaske | Could you add Tarun, he will be mentor for Sugarizer Dashboard ? |
| 20:11 | MrBIOS | is there a limit to how many mentors we are allowed to have? |
| 20:12 | llaske | I suggest one mentor by project on the platform |
| 20:12 | walterbender | we can have as many as we want, but we also want to ensure that they are real |
| 20:12 | MrBIOS | of course |
| 20:12 | walterbender | I am certain we need more than 1 mentor per project |
| 20:12 | samsongoddy | I am more concern about new project ideas (new activities) |
| 20:13 | Quozl | my preference is one mentor per project, so there is no doubt as to who is responsible to answer a student. |
| 20:13 | walterbender | We have some regular contributors applying |
| 20:13 | llaske | Exactly my point Quozl |
| 20:13 | walterbender | Quozl, we can make that clear without limiting ourselves. |
| 20:13 | MrBIOS | we also have some people applying who clearly have no concept of the intended age range of Sugar users |
| 20:13 | Quozl | i'm worried mentors won't notice how we make it clear. ;-) |
| 20:14 | walterbender | I don't want to get into this argument again, but the bottom line is that, for example, Music Blocks projects need input from Devin (Music) and Walter (coding) |
| 20:14 | I will ride harder on the mentors this year. | |
| 20:15 | llaske | We could have several mentors without declaring all on the Google platform |
| 20:15 | pikurasa | Yes, it has been important for MB to have input from multiple mentors |
| 20:15 | walterbender | I think it is important for most projects... |
| 20:15 | pikurasa | cannot imagine what just one of us would have created... :p |
| 20:15 | llaske | The responsability for the designated mentor is to work with other mentors |
| 20:15 | walterbender | Sugar apps, for example, need pedagogical input as well as coding (and UX too) |
| 20:16 | llaske | GSoC is for coding, only the coding mentor should be on the Google platform |
| 20:16 | Quozl | i'm also worried that conversations between mentors and students will be in secret when our code of conduct says we should use the right forum. |
| 20:16 | MrBIOS | yes, I think having mandatory one mentor only has more unintended negative consequences than having more than one. |
| 20:16 | walterbender | First of all, the google platform is irrelevant to the mentoring process |
| 20:17 | pikurasa | I think llaske is saying that the mentors must be registered in Google's GSoC system as mentor for current year |
| 20:17 | walterbender | but not being on the google platform means that mentors won't be acked by google, which I think it unfair |
| 20:17 | perrie <perrie!~perrie129.56.106.50> has joined #sugar-meeting |
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| 20:17 | MrBIOS | Quozl: if they want/choose to communicate in private, we can do nothing to stop it, but we can make clear and hammer home that we have a strong preference for that to not happen. |
| 20:18 | llaske | I suggest that each mentor must do a public report each week for its project |
| 20:18 | walterbender | All of the meetings I have had with my interns (and fellow mentors) in all the years we have been doing this have been on our IRC channels. |
| 20:18 | pikurasa | llaske: can that be via IRC during weekly meetings? |
| 20:18 | Quozl | i suggest that each mentor cc sugar-devel and ask student to do so as well? |
| 20:18 | walterbender | llaske, we ask the students to do that. |
| 20:18 | and they do. | |
| 20:18 | I hold a weekly meeting with all the interns and they make reports | |
| 20:19 | llaske | What I'm calling a report is: action from last week, todo for next week. It could be a small email to the list |
| 20:19 | walterbender | I can post the meeting minutes to Sugar devel as well, if that will help. |
| 20:19 | llaske, that is what they report in the group meetings | |
| 20:19 | samsongoddy | I thought student already do that |
| 20:19 | walterbender | look at the logs... |
| 20:19 | samsongoddy | already at previous gsoc |
| 20:20 | walterbender | for the past 10 years |
| 20:20 | Quozl | nobody who is knew will know that. |
| 20:20 | s/knew/new | |
| 20:20 | llaske | because IRC minutes is too complex to read |
| 20:20 | walterbender | knew or new? I don't no? :P |
| 20:20 | Quozl, FWIW, I announce this on devel every year as well | |
| 20:20 | Quozl | shall we move on to next topic? |
| 20:21 | walterbender | please |
| 20:21 | MrBIOS | please |
| 20:21 | pikurasa | yes, please |
| 20:21 | Quozl | walterbender: control as well as policy needed. |
| 20:21 | #topic google documentation | |
| 20:21 | walterbender | We need to decide if we want to participate |
| 20:21 | orgs need to start applying | |
| 20:21 | MrBIOS | well, our documentation is shit |
| 20:22 | so, I would argue we should | |
| 20:22 | samsongoddy | I speak for the educational team that we should apply |
| 20:22 | llaske | Will love it but can't do it at the same time than GSoC |
| 20:22 | Quozl | i almost never hear from the education team, are they secret? |
| 20:22 | MrBIOS | yes, they’re all ninjas. |
| 20:22 | samsongoddy | It is a new group |
| 20:23 | Quozl | it seems to be uninvolved or a splinter |
| 20:23 | samsongoddy | and they are working on bringing reports |
| 20:23 | walterbender | that doesn't believe in using the lists |
| 20:23 | Quozl | we frequently have discussions and decisions made by developers that would benefit from education input, but where are they? hiding? |
| 20:23 | walterbender | and ostracizes people that voice contrary opinions... |
| 20:23 | MrBIOS | samsongoddy: that’s not true, it has existed since 2009 |
| 20:23 | see history at https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/ind[…]am&action=history | |
| 20:23 | samsongoddy | I know |
| 20:23 | walterbender | since 2008 |
| 20:23 | MrBIOS | :) |
| 20:24 | walterbender | back on topic? |
| 20:24 | MrBIOS | Quozl: we need to recruit. samsongoddy, is there a canonical list of people on the education team, as of today? |
| 20:24 | Quozl | perhaps the new group, as a splinter org, just wanted legitimacy so grabbed the name? like the design team tried twice? |
| 20:24 | MrBIOS | the education team would probably want to be interacting with the documentation writers, would they not? at least, in theory |
| 20:25 | Quozl | i think the developers will want to interact most. |
| 20:25 | technical documentation is the skill, for which developers are the dependency, and the cure for any doubts. | |
| 20:25 | walterbender | so are we interested in the Documentation program? Should we apply (no obligation)? Who will apply? |
| 20:26 | MrBIOS | what is the process for applying? does anyone know? |
| 20:26 | samsongoddy | I think we should apply |
| 20:26 | walterbender | It is similar to GSoC |
| 20:26 | mostly boilerplate | |
| 20:26 | Quozl | i think the program would be beneficial, if it were to focus on user and teacher documentation for sugar and sugarizer. i don't think we need any api documentation, we already have most of what we need. |
| 20:26 | MrBIOS | I agree with the above |
| 20:26 | llaske | Quozl: +1 |
| 20:26 | pikurasa | It is a good idea. |
| 20:27 | walterbender | I think we need to ensure that potential deployments have the documentation that they need to get started |
| 20:27 | llaske | Something like the book "XO in the classroom" will be great |
| 20:27 | walterbender | Maybe I could get Sdenka to run the program for us. |
| 20:28 | 21WAAEPBN | Maybe related to TB and MB as well writing a book and having some video tutorials |
| 20:28 | walterbender | Quozl, can I make a motion that we apply but leave the details of who does it out? |
| 20:28 | Quozl | here's perhaps my next sugar laptop ... https://www.one-education.org/pages/infinity |
| 20:28 | walterbender: yes. | |
| 20:28 | 21WAAEPBN: for the record of the meeting, who are you? | |
| 20:29 | pikurasa | 21WAAEPBN: is Jaskirat, correct? |
| 20:29 | Quozl | oh, it was jaskirat. |
| 20:29 | we also have perrie as visitor, i think. | |
| 20:29 | walterbender | motion: Sugar Labs will apply to the Google Season of Docs 2019 program. |
| 20:29 | Quozl | i've been remiss at welcoming the visitors. welcome! |
| 20:29 | 21WAAEPBN | Oh yeah , client changed my name . Yes it is me jaskirat |
| 20:29 | perrie has quit IRC | |
| 20:30 | pikurasa | walterbender: seconded |
| 20:30 | Quozl | +1 |
| 20:30 | walterbender | +1 |
| 20:30 | MrBIOS | +1 |
| 20:30 | llaske | +1 |
| 20:30 | samsongoddy | +1 |
| 20:30 | Quozl | the motion is agreed. will number later. |
| 20:31 | #topic kano | |
| 20:31 | perrie <perrie!~perrie129.56.106.50> has joined #sugar-meeting |
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| 20:31 | walterbender | Just wanted to let everyone know that there is a Sugar workshop end of April in Kano State in Nigeria. |
| 20:31 | llaske | Is it a remote workshop? |
| 20:31 | walterbender | I'll post details as we learn more. |
| 20:31 | It is in the city center | |
| 20:31 | MrBIOS | it would be great if we could get a post-workshop report and some photos, if possible. |
| 20:32 | Quozl | who is attending? |
| 20:32 | samsongoddy | I will follow up on that |
| 20:32 | walterbender | kids and parents from the area |
| 20:32 | Quozl | is it a public event or invitation? |
| 20:32 | walterbender | Public event |
| 20:32 | Quozl | who is presenting? |
| 20:33 | walterbender | Ahmed Idris is the lead |
| 20:33 | It will be a bunch of Sugar stations with different activities | |
| 20:33 | and some teachers he has been working with | |
| 20:33 | Quozl | what is the duration of the event? |
| 20:34 | llaske | Is there a Sugar deployment planned there? |
| 20:34 | walterbender | Not sure. |
| 20:34 | llaske, this is a prelude | |
| 20:34 | Quozl | is ahmed idris a member of sugar labs, and are any other members of sugar labs going to be there? |
| 20:34 | MrBIOS | walterbender: any idea if they are running SoaS, is it on Pi/ARM, or x86? |
| 20:34 | walterbender | He is not a member... although heading in that direction |
| 20:34 | llaske | or Sugarizer :-) |
| 20:35 | walterbender | I think SoaS on workstations |
| 20:35 | samsongoddy | Quozl, for me I am travelling for a private business. But Maybe Perrie or Ibiam might make the trip |
| 20:35 | I am considering asking one of them to travel to Kano | |
| 20:35 | MrBIOS | he should be aware that collaboration is completely broken in SoaS F28/29 |
| 20:35 | walterbender | I have been helping him remotely, but introduced him to the Sugar Labs members in Nigeria |
| 20:35 | MrBIOS, I don't think he'll touch on collaboration in the workshop. | |
| 20:36 | Quozl | in 2013 i've a mail from a Dr. Ahmed Zakeri Idris claiming to represent the president of Nigeria and offering to invest in my country. Must be someone else we're talking about. ;-) |
| 20:36 | MrBIOS | ok, good to know. |
| 20:36 | llaske | :-) |
| 20:36 | walterbender | Quozl, I hope you send him your account info. |
| 20:36 | samsongoddy | lol |
| 20:36 | Oh no | |
| 20:37 | MrBIOS | would it make sense for there to be a public, Nigeria-specific Sugar Labs mailing list, so some of the presumably-private conversations related to planning these sorts of things could be brought out into the open a bit more? |
| 20:37 | Quozl | idrisahmed0011 at yahoo.co.jp was the return address, but i didn't get time to answer. |
| 20:37 | MrBIOS | I would personally be in favor of something like that. |
| 20:37 | perrie | I would have loved to be there but that's a school day for me |
| 20:37 | walterbender | MrBIOS, why not use iaep? or devel? |
| 20:38 | samsongoddy | I agree with Walter on that |
| 20:38 | There is no need to be specific | |
| 20:38 | MrBIOS | IAEP is general purpose, and a workshop is definitely not development related, but IAEP would probably be the most appropriate |
| 20:38 | I think we have _really_ abused the devel mailing list for a shit-ton of things that have zero to do with development. | |
| 20:38 | Quozl | iaep is appropriate, if the information can be public. as it's been mentioned here, it is public. |
| 20:39 | is there a motion planned for this topic? | |
| 20:39 | samsongoddy | Not Perrie and Ibiam want to make the trip |
| 20:39 | *if | |
| 20:39 | MrBIOS | do we know if Amhed Idris is subscribed to IAEP, or even knows that it exists? |
| 20:40 | walterbender | no motion... just a heads up |
| 20:40 | MrBIOS, I've told him about devel... don't recall re iaep | |
| 20:40 | Quozl | okay, any other topics? for me, just a mention that summer time ends for me tomorrow, so i'll appear an hour later from now on. |
| 20:41 | MrBIOS | I have another topic to add… Fedora 30 beta is out as of three days ago, and the beta ISOs for Sugar on a Stick are downloadable at https://download.fedoraproject[…]4-30_Beta-1.8.iso and https://download.fedoraproject[…]6-30_Beta-1.8.iso |
| 20:41 | (for 64-bit and 32-bit Intel machines, respectively) | |
| 20:41 | walterbender | I was just updating one on my machines with F30 last night |
| 20:41 | Quozl | MrBIOS: is collaboration likewise completely broken? |
| 20:41 | MrBIOS | collaboration was/is broken in earlier F30 builds, and I do not believe that F30 includes Sugar 0.113 |
| 20:42 | walterbender | MrBIOS, I will check this weekend |
| 20:42 | Quozl | MrBIOS: yeah, in general fedora developers won't take our fixes unless someone raises a bug. |
| 20:42 | walterbender | MrBIOS, any interest in being the rep to GNOME? |
| 20:42 | MrBIOS | The Fedora 30 release schedule is here https://fedoraproject.org/wiki[…]eases/30/Schedule and Final Freeze is on the sixteenth of this month |
| 20:42 | Quozl | #topic fedora 30 |
| 20:42 | MrBIOS | eleven days from today |
| 20:42 | Quozl | #topic gnome representative |
| 20:43 | i confirm from src.fedoraproject.org that sugar is still 0.112 | |
| 20:43 | MrBIOS | I volunteer myself to be the GNOME representative. |
| 20:43 | Quozl | motion: alex perez to be one of our gnome project representatives. |
| 20:43 | samsongoddy | Seconded |
| 20:44 | llaske | +1 |
| 20:44 | Quozl | votes? |
| 20:44 | pikurasa | +1 |
| 20:44 | samsongoddy | +1 |
| 20:44 | walterbender | +1 |
| 20:44 | MrBIOS | this will, officially, require me to attend weekly board meetings, as well as to "Attend the two days of in-person meetings prior to GUADEC. " |
| 20:44 | These responsibilities are laid out at https://wiki.gnome.org/FoundationBoard | |
| 20:45 | Quozl | motion is agreed. i may make minor changes to the motion to fit the naming convention of gnome project. |
| 20:45 | pikurasa | Just do not swear too much while representing SL MrBIOS |
| 20:45 | MrBIOS | GUADEC 2019 is being held in Thessaloniki, Greece August 23rd — 28th |
| 20:45 | Quozl | will number later. |
| 20:45 | #topic guadec 2019 | |
| 20:46 | MrBIOS | pikurasa: I pledge to reserve deployments of F-bombs and other incindiary language :: |
| 20:46 | ;-) | |
| 20:46 | Quozl | okay, moving on? i've another item to talk about; |
| 20:47 | #topic sugarizer discussions missing from sugar-devel@ | |
| 20:47 | llaske | ? |
| 20:47 | Quozl | a student told me they couldn't see any discussion about sugarizer or responses to questions on sugar-devel@ if the topic was sugarizer. llaske are you answering privately? |
| 20:48 | llaske | I've asked privately to all students that asked me to review their proposal |
| 20:48 | MrBIOS | as far as I can tell, no meaningful sugarizer discussion happens on any Sugar Labs mailing lists. |
| 20:48 | development discussion, rather | |
| 20:48 | Quozl | a student asked for lionel's address in the past week, on sugar-devel@, but there was no answer if i recall correctly. |
| 20:48 | llaske: your address is not on your github profile, that was the first place one student looked. | |
| 20:48 | llaske | Okay I will add it |
| 20:49 | Quozl | thanks. |
| 20:49 | pikurasa | Feel free to answer on the list. That way we/others can follow. |
| 20:49 | Quozl | okay, i'm done, any other topics? |
| 20:49 | #topic other business | |
| 20:49 | llaske | Sure but I'm very busy will students PR/Issues |
| 20:50 | samsongoddy | I don't know if I should voice this out, but I will do it any way without mentioning names |
| 20:50 | llaske | about 10-15 contributions each day |
| 20:50 | walterbender | nothing else from me |
| 20:50 | Quozl | llaske: yeah, i'm subscribed to the notifications, i see them. ([llaske/sugarizer]) |
| 20:50 | llaske | plus llaske/sugarizer-server and llaske/ExerciserReact |
| 20:51 | samsongoddy | Before we go I think we should consider making SL great again, for a community. I don't know how to do that |
| 20:51 | But people are complaining | |
| 20:51 | llaske | Thanks to all to reply on sugar-devel regarding Sugarizer, specically Quozl |
| 20:51 | Quozl | are they complaining in private to you? that's good, they think you can fix it. |
| 20:51 | MrBIOS | samsongoddy: apply? |
| 20:51 | rather, about? | |
| 20:52 | samsongoddy | How unsafe and how we don't thank our vision seriously |
| 20:52 | Quozl | what is unsafe? which vision? |
| 20:53 | MrBIOS | I do believe we should be asking ourselves what our vision is, but I don’t understand "unsafe" |
| 20:53 | Quozl | is the complaint about the oversight board or the community in general? |
| 20:54 | walterbender | unwelcoming? I know I feel unwelcome at the education team meetings |
| 20:54 | samsongoddy | Quozl, I don't think I can fix it. I am just 1 out of 7 of us responsible. As for "safe" some members and visitors says that we are rude for a starter. |
| 20:55 | But the most mentioned is how we don't want to listen to other contributors | |
| 20:55 | I am assuming they mean the day to day community bonding in SL | |
| 20:55 | Quozl | who is we? the community or the oversight board? |
| 20:55 | MrBIOS | Simon Schampijer (AKA erikos) is listed as the current Fedora Sugar package maintainer, according to https://src.fedoraproject.org/[…]r/erikos/projects |
| 20:56 | Quozl | MrBIOS: are you listening? ;-) |
| 20:56 | samsongoddy | Not Oversight Board but the "community" |
| 20:56 | MrBIOS | samsongoddy: I guess “don’t want to listen” can be taken a number of ways. Can you be more specific? |
| 20:57 | pikurasa | I think that samsongoddy is bringing up something important. |
| 20:57 | MrBIOS | a common problem with volunteer-oriented organizations is that other newcomers think that if they suggest an idea, other people will simply do it, or see how obvious it is. Is that some of what’s going on here, or something else? |
| 20:57 | samsongoddy | People are afraid of suggesting or improving something because of how they feel about the main community members |
| 20:58 | walterbender | I observe something in addition... |
| 20:58 | Quozl | sometimes when i try to listen and reply very carefully, i'm told i'm rude and condescending. sometimes when i reply hastily, i'm told i'm rude and too brief. damned if i do, and damned if i don't. i really think it is criticism of those in power, which is a common theme in today's world. |
| 20:59 | MrBIOS | samsongoddy: could that be short-circuited by simply allowing and soliciting anonymous suggestions? |
| 20:59 | walterbender | We are a learning organization and we need to accommodate new and veteran contributors ... let them make mistakes and learn. |
| 20:59 | MrBIOS | agreed |
| 20:59 | walterbender | but it is not always easy |
| 20:59 | samsongoddy | +1 walterbender |
| 20:59 | walterbender | and it takes time |
| 21:00 | and I think we all are very pressured time-wise | |
| 21:00 | Quozl | llaske: what do you think of this issue? |
| 21:00 | samsongoddy | Maybe we should try to do a survey |
| 21:00 | walterbender | to what end? |
| 21:00 | samsongoddy | to get community input without collecting names |
| 21:00 | Quozl | if you ask people there is a problem, more people will say there is a problem than would have said so. |
| 21:00 | llaske | I think you try to do the best to give maximum informations to volunteer |
| 21:01 | But it's sometimes boring to repeat always the same thing | |
| 21:01 | pikurasa | I think we could do a couple things without any survey: |
| 21:01 | walterbender | maybe we can ask Pattie (our ombudsman) to do a little investigating? |
| 21:01 | samsongoddy | +1 |
| 21:01 | pikurasa | 1) Have some template "welcome" for those who ask "I am new. What can I do?" We get many of those emails. |
| 21:02 | walterbender | Quozl has such a template that he shares and updates |
| 21:02 | Quozl | also, samson, could you urge these private correspondents of yours to speak more in public about their problem? |
| 21:02 | MrBIOS | Should we move to set up an anonymous suggestion system? |
| 21:02 | this is low-effort | |
| 21:02 | samsongoddy | Quozl, I did. But I guess they don't want to speak out |
| 21:03 | walterbender | pikurasa, and #2? |
| 21:03 | pikurasa | 2) Put ourselves in the other person's shoes when responding to questions (e.g. think "how might they (unintentionally) take this?") |
| 21:03 | questions, etc | |
| 21:03 | MrBIOS | samsongoddy: did you ask them if they would do so anonymously? |
| 21:03 | llaske | I like the #1 idea |
| 21:03 | samsongoddy | Yeap. MrBIOS |
| 21:03 | walterbender | pikurasa, not always so easy... especially given the diversity of the community :P |
| 21:03 | Quozl | i think anonymous input lacks usefulness, because then any of us could use it as an attack vector. i'm sure i have some people who would do that to me. |
| 21:04 | walterbender | has been trolled many times |
| 21:04 | MrBIOS | Quozl: I agree it is a risk, but you don’t have to choose to share the feedback publicly. |
| 21:05 | Quozl | other possibility is that samson is being trolled to swing him away from sugar labs involvement. ;-) |
| 21:05 | MrBIOS | we (as a board, and presumably the collective recipients of such anonymous feedback) can decide whether or not to share it, when it is appropriate to do so, and not incendiary. |
| 21:05 | Quozl | our time for the meeting is expired, do we have a motion? |
| 21:06 | pikurasa | I need to go now. |
| 21:06 | MrBIOS | most of the on-line, third party suggestion box platforms seem to cost about USD $9 per month. |
| 21:06 | I do not think we should host our own, for privacy reasons. | |
| 21:06 | walterbender | I'll bring the topic up with Pattie and ask her to report back. |
| 21:06 | Quozl | we could also ask sfc. |
| 21:07 | MrBIOS | sure, although again, they do seem very reticent to dedicate any further time to anything related to Sugar Labs |
| 21:07 | samsongoddy | Quozl, maybe I get some attacks. But I am more understanding than a new visitor |
| 21:07 | Quozl | MrBIOS: could you investigate without a motion? pikurasa needs to go, we need to end the meeting. |
| 21:08 | 21WAAEPBN | I just wanted to add something, if that does not mind. Since working of SFc and Open Collective is same and Open Collective has better transparency for fundraising. We should try shifting or put ourselves on Open Collective for raising funds for various aspects |
| 21:08 | MrBIOS | sure, end the meeting, I will investigate a bit. |
| 21:08 | Quozl | motion: meeting close, all in favour? |
| 21:08 | samsongoddy | Collective doesn't give governance support |
| 21:08 | +1 | |
| 21:08 | 21WAAEPBN | https://opencollective.com/ |
| 21:08 | pikurasa | +1 |
| 21:09 | llaske | +1 |
| 21:09 | pikurasa has quit IRC | |
| 21:09 | MrBIOS | Open Collective is nice in theory, but it only solves one aspect of the problem. |
| 21:09 | and quite frankly, it’s the easier of the two. | |
| 21:09 | walterbender | +1 |
| 21:09 | MrBIOS | for that very reason. |
| 21:09 | samsongoddy | replacement of SFC can be OSI or FSF |
| 21:10 | or we stand alone | |
| 21:10 | 21WAAEPBN | @MrBIOS: I am not sure what do you exactly refer to as aspects |
| 21:10 | MrBIOS | 21WAAEPBN: it does not solve the fact that we do not actually control our own fate, as SFC members, because of the amount of control that we lack. |
| 21:10 | 21WAAEPBN | One aspect like? Just curious to know |
| 21:11 | samsongoddy | 21WAAEPBN, I have a project with OC |
| 21:11 | MrBIOS | our agreement with them may not even allow for such independent collection of funds, quite frankly. |
| 21:11 | it would have to be looked in to. | |
| 21:11 | 21WAAEPBN | @MrBIOS: I agree |
| 21:11 | Quozl | MrBIOS: vote to end meeting please? then you can continue your non-meeting discussion. |
| 21:11 | 21WAAEPBN | @samsongoddy: yeah I know open source africa? Right? Even I do run a project there |
| 21:11 | MrBIOS | Sure. I vote to end this meeting. |
| 21:12 | only eleven minutes over ;) | |
| 21:12 | Would be nice to know where Claudia went | |
| 21:12 | Quozl | #endmeeting |
| 21:12 | meeting | Meeting ended Fri Apr 5 21:12:20 2019 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4) |
| 21:12 | Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-05T20:02:15.html | |
| 21:12 | Log: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]19-04-05T20:02:15 | |
| 21:12 | walterbender | Back to Samson's topic: One tangible piece of feedback I will share publicly: I think that the devel community has been dismissive of the role of non-developers. |
| 21:13 | MrBIOS | samsongoddy: I would strongly encourage you and your other Nigerian volunteers to form a Local Lab, see https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]al_Labs_Directory |
| 21:13 | walterbender | Perhaps because we are very thin on developers? |
| 21:13 | samsongoddy | MrBIOS, I am working on that |
| 21:13 | walterbender, agreed | |
| 21:13 | MrBIOS | walterbender: I agree as well. |
| 21:14 | samsongoddy | I am actually again't it. As Sugar Labs is an "Educational" project when people Google it |
| 21:14 | walterbender | frankly, even today's GSoC discussion about mentors... we already had this discussion and agreed to a mechanism to add non-coding mentors... but I had to defend that position once again. |
| 21:15 | samsongoddy | "non-coding" is offensive to the open source community |
| 21:15 | walterbender | I don't agree. But it seems to be to some developers. |
| 21:16 | samsongoddy | So what do we do? we didn't have that category last year or previous years as far as GSoC is concerned |
| 21:18 | 21WAAEPBN | Tagging as non-coding categorizes volunteers for future things which is inappropriate |
| 21:18 | MrBIOS | samsongoddy: what are you against, exactly? |
| 21:18 | walterbender | I think the intention was to ensure there was an experienced Sugar developer associated with each project. But it seems (in some minds) to have turned into only experienced Sugar developers need apply. |
| 21:18 | llaske has quit IRC | |
| 21:18 | MrBIOS | yes, you are a contributor, period. developers can be contributors, and they can also not be contributors (to Sugar Labs) and still be developers. |
| 21:18 | walterbender | we have a few of those too :) |
| 21:19 | samsongoddy | I am against the word "non-coding" when using it in an open community like Sugar Labs |
| 21:19 | which is educational focused | |
| 21:19 | 21WAAEPBN | +1 |
| 21:19 | MrBIOS | well, if you know very little/nothing about Sugar, you probably shouldn’t consider being a mentor. |
| 21:19 | Quozl | i'm against the tendency for non-coders to refuse to learn even the simplest coding. they set themselves such limits. |
| 21:20 | walterbender | Quozl, me too... and I think everyone should learn git... |
| 21:20 | but... | |
| 21:20 | Quozl | we also see it with coders who refuse to learn the next skill they need, like debugging, or c, or kernels. |
| 21:20 | walterbender | MrBIOS, last year, we had a lot of mentors go MIA |
| 21:20 | MrBIOS | walterbender: I’m aware |
| 21:21 | there has also been a surge of unsubscribes on our mailing lists. I see those e-mails. | |
| 21:21 | walterbender | but I don't actually think it correlated with either coding skills or Sugar experience. |
| 21:21 | MrBIOS | (and subscriptions, to be fair) |
| 21:21 | walterbender | the MIAs |
| 21:21 | Quozl | we usually get a surge of unsubscribes when lots of mails come out. |
| 21:22 | i think it's the traffic forcing people to reassess their involvement. | |
| 21:22 | a surge also triggers the undeliverable address unsubscribes. | |
| 21:23 | oh, and i only recently enabled unsubscribe notifications. you may have thought it was a surge; we just weren't getting them before that. | |
| 21:23 | MrBIOS | walterbender: all of the links at https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]al_Labs_Directory to individual labs are broken, I am going to remove them. Any objections? |
| 21:23 | walterbender | no objection |
| 21:23 | Quozl | yes, remove anything that is broken, if anyone objects they are responsible for noticing you. |
| 21:23 | walterbender | +1 |
| 21:24 | plus... it is a wiki... there is a page history. they can restore | |
| 21:24 | MrBIOS | yep. done |
| 21:24 | it just looks bad. | |
| 21:26 | Quozl | walterbender: suggestion; before you add mentors to gsoc dashboard, please remind them of their immediate responsibilities? e.g. if you want them to, or don't want them to review the final proposals now, or later. |
| 21:28 | MrBIOS | we really need a new maintainer for Fedora SoaS and for the fedora Sugar packages themselves. They are all on life support. |
| 21:29 | Quozl | ... i think the complaints that samsongoddy relays have to do with a perception of non-inclusiveness, and much of our decision-making on how to handle gsoc mentors has happened on github instead of sugar-devel@ ... wrong forum again. |
| 21:30 | there are a few assisting mentors on the ideas page that i've not seen react to any notifications on the gsoc repository, so i suspect they don't get them. aren't listed as watching. aren't members of the github org. | |
| 21:32 | conversation seems to have dried up, i'll go get myself some breakfast. ;-) | |
| 21:33 | walterbender | sorry... got distracted by a phone call |
| 21:33 | MrBIOS | I’m here |
| 21:33 | samsongoddy | My passport is stuck at the South African embassy |
| 21:33 | I am honestly tired about anything visa these days | |
| 21:34 | walterbender | Quozl, I will remind all of the potential mentors of their responsibilities |
| 21:34 | samsongoddy, it is a miasma that has been in the air since 2016 | |
| 21:36 | samsongoddy | you are right |
| 21:36 | I am just a bit lucky that for USA, I got the visa process on the right time. If not I will be facing another problem | |
| 21:37 | and it is hard when you are using passport from Africa | |
| 21:37 | especially a Nigerian one | |
| 21:38 | I saw on the news that US nationals will be needing visas to Europe | |
| 21:39 | MrBIOS | samsongoddy: that’s only partially correct, see https://www.schengenvisainfo.c[…]ch-is-not-a-visa/ |
| 21:48 | samsongoddy | walterbender: Do you think SL should look into adopting one hardware to recommend to new users as how we did with OLPC? |
| 21:48 | Something extremely cheap | |
| 21:49 | walterbender | I think we should support several as demonstration projects, e.g., RPi and perhaps the Positivo laptop to be built in Rwanda. |
| 21:49 | but not be exclusive | |
| 21:50 | has to go... | |
| 21:50 | ttyl | |
| 21:55 | MrBIOS | I agree, no one platform should be the only one we support. The hardware evolves too quickly for that to be a successful strategy, honestly. |
| 21:55 | samsongoddy | +1 |
| 21:57 | walter__ <walter__!~walter146.115.133.213> has joined #sugar-meeting |
|
| 22:00 | Quozl | https://www.one-education.org/pages/infinity ... i've been testing this one, i like it. |
| 22:01 | MrBIOS has quit IRC | |
| 22:01 | walterbender has quit IRC | |
| 22:04 | samsongoddy | yes |
| 22:04 | good device | |
| 22:04 | but a bit expensive | |
| 22:04 | $500?? | |
| 22:04 | Quozl | you're misled by the price. |
| 22:04 | that's with an australian consumer law warranty, plus more warranty beyond it. | |
| 22:05 | you're also looking at australian dollars, which confuses it further. | |
| 22:05 | samsongoddy | I have the infinity:one prototype |
| 22:05 | Oh AUS dollars | |
| 22:06 | Quozl | i'm aiming for something around $250 USD ... the much cheaper mass production models by the big companies always seem to lack something. |
| 22:06 | this one is a custom build. | |
| 22:07 | samsongoddy | Wow that is cheap |
| 22:07 | then | |
| 22:07 | I will try ordering one myself | |
| 22:07 | MrBIOS <MrBIOS!~aperez216.52.21.30> has joined #sugar-meeting |
|
| 22:08 | Quozl | i've heard stock of the second infinity mass production run should be arriving in sydney within about a week. |
| 22:09 | samsongoddy | Did you manage to get linux installed? |
| 22:09 | Quozl | yes, and everything worked. i used ubuntu 18.04 with the olpc sugar packages. |
| 22:09 | samsongoddy | Then I am sold |
| 22:09 | Quozl | even the active pen worked well. |
| 22:09 | samsongoddy | I save for it and get it |
| 22:10 | MrBIOS | Quozl: cool. What’s the price range/ |
| 22:12 | Quozl | MrBIOS: depends on what you want. the model advertised has an active pen and windows. removing them lowers the price. since their target market is students, parents, and teachers in australian schools, they don't see the demand for anything _but_ the most optioned up. |
| 22:12 | MrBIOS | *nod* |
| 22:13 | satellit_ | I may be interested also US price? (fedora 30) no OS? |
| 22:13 | MrBIOS | I mean, it’s a computer, you can put anything on it |
| 22:21 | Quozl: that’s why I asked “range” | |
| 22:22 | Quozl | MrBIOS: alright, at MoQ 10,000 probably $USD 215 |
| 22:23 | ... two million dollars tends to do things to pricing. ;-) | |
| 22:23 | MrBIOS | yes, I’m well aware. Can individuals buy them, or not? |
| 22:25 | Quozl | at the moment, one education australia will sell to individuals, and you can talk to them ... but the power cables are australian, you would have to source your own iec c5 cable. if olpc goes for it, we would stock some, and possibly offer it for individual sale, as we _already do_ with the nl3 and xo. ;-} |
| 22:25 | MrBIOS | that’s hardly a concern for me |
| 22:26 | Quozl | exactly. but i've had push back just about the cable. |
| 22:26 | MrBIOS | rolls eyes |
| 22:27 | Quozl | i've even had push back that the installation is not as easy as an xo and there's no security system, but nobody has ponied up on those yet. |
| 22:27 | we can do anything with money. ;-) | |
| 22:30 | MrBIOS | meh |
| 22:37 | Quozl | gah, i'm sore. was doing about 60mph on a dirt road yesterday and hit a washed away section; depth of etching was about 6 inches. seatbelt bruising. |
| 22:39 | qwebirc8197 has quit IRC | |
| 22:42 | MrBIOS | yuck. 60 on dirt/gravel is risky |
| 22:43 | Quozl | shrug. it's fine if you've done it for ten years and know the road. forgetting recent rain was the mistake. |
| 22:44 | i'd also just changed a flat, so had "i'm late" bias biting in. | |
| 22:44 | the next decision was "be late". | |
| 22:45 | the etching was randomly shaded by light tree cover, and mostly along the direction of travel, so from a distance it looked like tyre tracks. | |
| 22:47 | MrBIOS | I was up at an acre-sized vacant lot I own up in the Sierra Nevadas, a few weekends ago, chainsawing up an oak tree that had fallen, and I barely got out of there with 4WD due to soil saturation. |
| 22:48 | Quozl | we've been bone dry for two years here, and had 3.7 inches of rain. no vegetation left to keep the water in the paddocks and farms, so it departed via any friendly road. |
| 22:50 | MrBIOS | here in the town I live in, we broke a record of 4.7 inches of rain in a 24 hour period, this winter |
| 22:50 | since record keeping began in 1902 | |
| 22:51 | Quozl | we're finding weather systems are much slower moving than ten years ago. we've had a few cyclones off the coast that almost sit around doing nothing bit digging in. we see it also with rain cells, and heatwaves. |
| 22:56 | perrie has quit IRC | |
| 22:57 | MrBIOS | yeah, same around the world in lots of places, it would seem. |
| 22:57 | Quozl: https://photos.app.goo.gl/HoddMnuJvWMr29ux9 | |
| 22:58 | Quozl | lovely. wish we had mud like that. ;-) |
| 23:16 | MrBIOS has quit IRC | |
| 23:50 | samsongoddy has quit IRC |
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