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#sugar-meeting, 2019-03-01

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18:56 Quozl_ .
18:58 #startmeeting
18:58 meeting Meeting started Fri Mar  1 18:58:42 2019 UTC. The chair is Quozl_. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
18:58 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
18:58 Quozl_ #topic waiting for quorum
18:59 samsongoddy Hello
18:59 Quozl_ our oversight board mission is to "ensure that the Sugar Labs community has clarity of purpose and the means to collaborate in achieving its goals."
18:59 perrie <perrie!~perrie@> has joined #sugar-meeting
18:59 Quozl_ samsongoddy: hello.
19:00 walterbender hi
19:00 samsongoddy Happy new month
19:00 walterbender last night between midnight and midnight was Seymour Papert's birthday
19:00 He would have been 91
19:01 samsongoddy yeah I saw it everywhere on twitter
19:01 Quozl_ oversight board members are Walter Bender (present), Lionel Laské, Devin Ulibarri, James Cameron (chair, present), Samson Goddy (present), Alex Perez, and Claudia Urrea.
19:01 walterbender He was born on 29 Feb. :P
19:01 Quozl_ walterbender: hello.
19:02 i'm in a motel room four hours drive from home, so i don't have all my notes with me.  dawn is half an hour away.  i just finished speaking with karen sandler.
19:03 walterbender I am in Toronto, behind a firewall and about to head to the airport
19:03 tries to contact pikarusa
19:05 Quozl_ ours and another project's travel policy exemption request were considered by the conservancy board, but they decided not to grant either, because of the increased work and the number of exemptions they had already granted to all projects.
19:06 the other project's exemption was due to illness.  our exemption was due to our own failure to communicate.
19:06 walterbender "What we have here is a failure to communicate"
19:07 pikurasa <pikurasa!~devin@fsf/member/pikurasa> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:07 walterbender Did you ever see "Cool Hand Luke"?
19:07 pikurasa Hi!
19:07 walterbender hi Devin
19:07 texted Claudia too
19:08 Devin: can you please translate "Take a tour" when you have a chance?
19:08 pikurasa walterbender: ok
19:08 walterbender thx
19:08 devin, I will be at MIT on Wednesday. I could bring USB sticks with me.
19:09 pikurasa kai is in attendance, too.
19:09 Let's plan for Wednesday. I can meet anytime before 1 or after 5pm
19:09 Quozl_ pikurasa: welcome.
19:09 #topic agend
19:09 #topic agenda
19:10 pikurasa Thank you Quozl_ ... sorry to be late
19:10 Quozl_ we have quorum, is there anything we need to talk about?  i'd like to get ibiam's travel request approved at least.
19:11 MrBIOS <MrBIOS!~aperez@c-67-170-219-226.hsd1.ca.comcast.net> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:11 walterbender Maybe a quick discussion/update re GSoC?
19:11 MrBIOS hey folks, sorry, other meeting ran long
19:11 Quozl_ i've sent Skype and WhatsApp messages to Alex and Lionel.
19:11 MrBIOS: welcome, we are in quorum, we have walter, devin, samson, myself, and you.  we are discussing agenda.
19:12 walterbender pikurasa: I will be giving a talk at 6PM
19:12 MrBIOS apologies for my tardiness.
19:12 Quozl_ walterbender: thanks, so agenda so far is ibiam's travel, update re gsoc.  i'll add a behaviour issue that is sucking time if there is time.
19:12 lionel will be with us shortly.
19:13 llaske <llaske!~llaske@v9e93-h01-176-145-89-188.dsl.sta.abo.bbox.fr> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:13 llaske hi all
19:13 Quozl_ llaske: welcome.  all but claudia are here.  agenda so far is ibiam's travel, update re gsoc, and a minor behaviour problem.
19:13 llaske: anything for the agenda before i begin?
19:14 s/for/to add to
19:14 llaske nope
19:14 Quozl_ thanks.
19:14 MrBIOS I would also like to discuss our presence at SCaLE
19:14 briefly
19:14 Quozl_ #topic travel to pycon 2019 for ibiam
19:14 MrBIOS: okay.
19:14 can i have ya or nay votes from devin and alex on the motion posted to mailing list past two days about ibiam's travel advance?
19:15 callaurrea <callaurrea!1228548f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:15 walterbender +1 from me as per my email
19:15 callaurrea Hi
19:15 MrBIOS I am in favor. , however I do believe he needs to document the benefit of his presence, which I have not seen explained, despite me asking him directly to do this
19:16 Quozl_ callaurrea: hello.  we have begun.  topic is travel to pycon 2019 for ibiam.  can i have yes or no votes on this motion please from you?
19:16 walterbender MrBIOS: +1... I have also discussed that with him
19:16 Quozl_ MrBIOS: thanks.  i agree.  i'll count that as a yes.
19:16 pikurasa has voted via mail. +1
19:16 Quozl_ we could give him ideas too.
19:16 callaurrea I am running a workshop, so I just got a break now... but I can't really stay
19:16 Quozl_ okay, thanks, the motion passes.  moving on.
19:17 callaurrea I will here in the background
19:17 Quozl_ #topic update gsoc
19:17 callaurrea: okay.
19:17 walterbender In brief, we have been accepted.
19:17 llaske great
19:17 callaurrea great
19:17 walterbender We have lots of solid proposal ideas in GH: See https://github.com/sugarlabs/GSoC
19:18 Quozl_ we got late formal notification from conservancy agreeing to us doing gsoc.  about 12 hours ago.  delay was theirs.
19:18 llaske thanks to Quozl for PR reviews on it
19:18 walterbender I would like to hold off inviting mentors until he get some idea of what sort of applications we are getting
19:19 Quozl_ walterbender: good idea.  that will also prevent the mentor hell of "is my application meeting your personal requirements" that we've been getting already.
19:19 walterbender @pikarusa -- there is a Northeastern student who is interested in performance on MB
19:19 Quozl_ s/prevent/reduce
19:19 llaske May be we could designate a main mentor on each idea, it will help to take decision
19:20 pikurasa walterbender: great, I wonder if that has to do with my meeting the NU prof a few weeks ago...
19:20 walterbender FWIW, we can still add more project ideas
19:20 and we should all try to encourage strong candidates to apply
19:20 pikurasa: maybe...
19:20 samsongoddy I am doing some outreach in Nigeria
19:20 So maybe we will get some folks
19:20 walterbender I will advertise at the Open Edx talk too
19:21 Quozl_ #agreed Motion 2019-08: to pay a travel advance of $USD 1600 to Ibiam Chihurumnaya to attend Pycon 2019 in Cleveland, with pauses in New York accommodated by member Dave Crossland.
19:21 callaurrea +1, walterbender
19:21 Quozl_ (for the records)
19:22 MrBIOS what is the travel visa situation for Nigerians inbound to US?
19:22 I guess that can be answered later :)
19:22 what next?
19:23 Quozl_ i ask that any revision to project ideas negotiated between mentors and students actually get pushed into the repository as well.  even after the start of gsoc.
19:23 MrBIOS: yours.
19:23 MrBIOS Roger. When does GSoC formally start, and will it be possible for board members to have access to the GSoC program pages, or is that verboten?
19:23 Quozl_ #agenda our presence at scale
19:24 MrBIOS: i think it would be best for you to be registered as a mentor but without expectation of mentoring; we don't seem to have any other process possible.
19:24 walterbender mrbios MrBIOS I will send you a US of the GCI data :P
19:25 Quozl_ MrBIOS: you would need to agree to google's t&c on it though.  it is always a bit non-transparent in this way, and we don't seem to have a better solution.
19:25 ibiam <ibiam!~myirc@> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:25 ibiam Hi everyone
19:25 Quozl_ ibiam: welcome, as visitor.  perrie: welcome too.
19:25 walterbender Quozl_: yes... I don't think there is any other way
19:25 ibiam Thank you Quozl_
19:26 Quozl_ MrBIOS: willing to talk us through scale now?
19:26 MrBIOS okay. SCaLE officially begins next Thursday, the seventh. I will be attending through Sunday, arriving in the evening on Thursday. Since we have a booth in the exhibit hall, gratis, I would like recommendations from other SLOBs with regards to anything they would like to be presented to the general public/attendees. The discounted floor pass is only $35, so the barrier to attend/enter this show is low
19:27 My wife, who teaches first grade here, and has taught second and third grade as well, will be accompanying me, and helping to man the booth. We will have XO’s on display, as well as a low end $250 laptop running Sugar, and an android Tablet running Sugarizer, for demonstration purposes, which anyone will be able to interact with if they so desire.
19:28 walterbender RPi?
19:28 MrBIOS walterbender: yes, that too :)
19:28 Quozl_ for general public, i think the key messages are "put this usb drive into your computer and boot it, and you have software for learning by elementary children", and you can go intro constructivist, history, one laptop per child, as appropriate.
19:28 MrBIOS yes, exactly.
19:28 Quozl_ and they may ask if it can run without usb drive, and yes, you can.
19:29 and parents are very worried about data collected on their children, and you can tell them we don't have the time or the software that does that.
19:29 MrBIOS I personally view this trip as an outreach effort, not any sort of effort to attract development contributors, however there may also be the prospect of that. It really boils down to who ends up coming to engage us at the booth.
19:29 Quozl_ and ask them if they have any budding programmers who might want to help us out with making children's software even better.
19:30 MrBIOS yes, there are also some very young attendees to this show, pre-teen and teenage kids, some of whom have literally attended their whole lives.
19:30 walterbender MrBIOS: maybe show Turtle Blocks --> Python --> Pippy --> Sugar activity
19:30 Quozl_ and we don't charge for the software, it can be inspected, and while we have an app store it's not very good at the moment, the fedora soas has much of what is needed already.
19:31 pikurasa My son, Kai, has been having fun with Turtle Blocks on his XO laptop.
19:31 ...or maybe it's just me having fun.
19:31 :)
19:31 walterbender pikurasa: he should love the Physics activity
19:31 pikurasa Yeah, we did that a bit, too.
19:32 And I noticed that TB integrates with the physics activity, which is nice.
19:32 walterbender yes
19:32 there is a plugin for creating high-precision projects for Physics
19:32 pikurasa imagines a future where MB integrates more with the other "suites" (sweets) of apps
19:32 Quozl_ MrBIOS: got enough?  any other issues re scale?
19:33 MrBIOS not that I can think of, but I ask that if anyone has any ideas or suggestions, to contact me or Caryl via e-mail.
19:33 Quozl_ MrBIOS: okay, please keep us updated via the mailing lists.
19:34 MrBIOS will do.
19:34 Quozl_ #topic introductory tasks
19:34 so i've been careful to create issues for introductory tasks that i don't have the time to do myself, and i specify them carefully.
19:35 then tony comes along and undermines them.  i'm not getting much support from any other developers, and i need support to argue against tony's put-downs.
19:35 comments?
19:35 MrBIOS can you cite the particular instance of this for those of us who are not aware?
19:35 ML archive URL?
19:35 pikurasa yes, please
19:35 I need some context, too
19:36 Quozl_ most recent is bichos activity, issue.  i'll go find, standby.
19:36 walterbender Quozl_: sorry... I have not read that thread. I will try to follow up this weekend
19:36 Quozl_ https://github.com/sugarlabs/b[…]activity/issues/9
19:36 it's just a repository merge, of commit history, easily done with a rebase and cherry-pick.  problem was caused by tony anyway.
19:37 (he had uploaded a new repository instead of cloning the author's repository).
19:38 but it is a continuing problem.  the only things tony wants to say are "don't do that, do something else".  he doesn't push commits.  he doesn't make pull requests.
19:38 pikurasa Why upload a new repository?
19:38 walterbender a bit of background: we had a major disagreement in the past when he uploaded a bunch of repos w/o the commit histories
19:38 MrBIOS basically because he doesn’t understand how Git works?
19:38 Quozl_ pikurasa: he seems to think git is for holding release versions of software.
19:38 MrBIOS: yes.
19:38 MrBIOS: or rather he doesn't understand how the rest of us use git.
19:38 walterbender I had a GCI task to hunt down the original repos
19:38 pikurasa That would make it difficult to see the project history...
19:38 walterbender but no one took the task :(
19:39 Quozl_ pikurasa: yes, impossible.
19:39 walterbender Flavio I think would be willing to help
19:39 Quozl_ and hunting them down is as easy as searching for the bundle_id string across github.  very fast.
19:39 MrBIOS walterbender: we should keep track of those items, they would be good for non-GSoC contributors to delve into
19:40 Quozl_ so, anyway, i feel i need others to step up and take on the arguments in favour of git workflow.  it can get hostile, as you can see.
19:40 MrBIOS it’s very clear to me that Tony has very minimal understanding of the way SCM is supposed to be used, but there’s nothing we can ultimately do about him choosing to be obstinate, at the end of the day.
19:40 Quozl_ i've no idea what the new contributor thinks of all this, we may have lost them.
19:40 walterbender Quozl_: I will reach out... again  (on this new thread)
19:40 MrBIOS walterbender: yeah this is probably something to which you are best suited to respond
19:41 Quozl_ i wish we had an api way of finding out what repositories we aren't watching on sugarlabs.  so if anyone has any github api foo, that's an idea to look at.
19:41 pikurasa Tony says "I will continue to distrust version control in github until some proper procedures are put in place." https://github.com/sugarlabs/b[…]comment-468192348
19:41 MrBIOS and he does not describe which procedures he thinks need to be put in place, or why
19:41 Quozl_ okay, i've nothing more to add, we can move on to general discussion if everybody is finished with this one?
19:41 walterbender I guess he don't think our current procedures are proper... but they are what we have been using for 10+ years
19:41 MrBIOS yes please
19:42 pikurasa so Quozl_ what do you propose to do given the situation?
19:42 walterbender Quozl_: I have one more topic -- a book purchase -- when we are done with this topic
19:43 Quozl_ pikurasa: nothing yet.  my plan is still in the issue first post.  generally, i'll continue logging easy issues for new developers.
19:43 MrBIOS what was the next topic on the agenda?
19:43 Quozl_ #topic book purchase
19:43 walterbender: go ahead.
19:43 callaurrea has quit IRC
19:44 Quozl_ MrBIOS: we're off the agenda now, on fresh stuff.
19:44 walterbender Perrie, who is our de facto design team asked if we would buy a book
19:44 https://www.nngroup.com/articl[…]usability-issues/
19:44 MrBIOS roger
19:44 walterbender it seems quite relevant
19:44 it is a bit pricy: $180
19:44 Quozl_ there was also that children's software research study, a bit cheaper if i recall correctly.  are they related at all?
19:44 MrBIOS it’s a report, really
19:45 the group license is $388
19:45 walterbender yes
19:45 callaurrea <callaurrea!1228548f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:45 Quozl_ yep, that was the one.  i asked about it at the time.  so we have someone who can use it.
19:45 MrBIOS which might be a better buy, since we could actually legally share it (albeit pivately)
19:45 llaske I think a group license will be better
19:45 MrBIOS agreed
19:46 Quozl_ we would have to remember to give it to only members.
19:46 MrBIOS correct.
19:46 perrie has quit IRC
19:46 Quozl_ would someone like to move that we purchase the group license?
19:46 MrBIOS I move that we purchase a group license for this
19:46 Quozl_ okay, seconders?
19:46 walterbender seconded
19:46 pikurasa I am for it if 1) it seems helpful and 2) we use it.
19:46 MrBIOS This = “UX Design for Children (Ages 3-12) 4th edition”
19:46 Quozl_ discussion on motion?
19:47 pikurasa And will assume that 1 and 2 are true, thus +1
19:47 llaske +1
19:47 walterbender +1
19:47 Quozl_ looks like we're in agreement.  callaurrea: motion is to purchase group license for https://www.nngroup.com/articl[…]usability-issues/
19:47 samsongoddy: ?
19:47 perrie <perrie!~perrie@> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:47 samsongoddy +1
19:48 callaurrea what is the cost?
19:48 MrBIOS group use license is $388
19:48 callaurrea +1
19:48 thanks, MrBIOS
19:48 MrBIOS process-wise, since we are agreed, how do we go about executing on the purchase? Can we just have SFC buy it on our behalf?
19:48 Quozl_ #agreed Motion 2019-08: to purchase a group license to https://www.nngroup.com/articl[…]usability-issues/ for use by members of Sugar Labs.
19:49 MrBIOS: i'll ask them, my job to do so.
19:49 #topic any general discussion
19:49 MrBIOS also had one issue to bring up regarding SFC travel policy
19:49 Quozl_ we're ten minutes before end of meeting, anything else to talk about?
19:49 walterbender I have nothing more
19:49 Quozl_ MrBIOS: go ahead.
19:50 MrBIOS the current policy seems to require that the least expensive flight always be purchased, regardless of the amount of time it adds to take a non-direct flight.
19:50 pikurasa Not exactly
19:50 ibiam Agreed
19:50 MrBIOS Since I value my time, I would like to understand more fully if it is possible to simply personally pay the difference between the two.
19:50 Quozl_ ibiam: agreed with which line?
19:50 MrBIOS I have two full time jobs.
19:50 ibiam pikurasa's
19:50 walterbender MrBIOS: the more recent (as of a few years ago) policy is a little more flexible
19:51 MrBIOS walterbender: got it, can you explain how it was changed?
19:51 pikurasa It does say that "more than one connection" is not assumed to be "reasonable" (I am paraphrasing)
19:51 ^ needs verification... from my memory
19:51 MrBIOS I have already purchased travel, non-stop, to PyCon, prior to fully understanding the SFC policy on this (my bad)
19:51 ibiam MrBIOS: you can also choose a flight that's $100 more from the lowest available
19:51 MrBIOS this saves several hours
19:51 walterbender MrBIOS: there is a formula layover time vs $
19:52 pikurasa MrBIOS: In my experience is the most important question is "did you take a screenshot of the various prices at purchase"?
19:53 MrBIOS pikurasa: and I did not, in my case, because I was unaware that this was the policy, but I think the price is quite reasonable, but I can’t go back in time to take screenshots, so I’m a bit at a loss as to how to rectify this oversight
19:53 pikurasa MrBIOS: I have messed up a few times. I recommend that (assuming you made an error) you explain yourself.
19:53 MrBIOS anyways, just something I wanted to throw out there. I would also like to briefly touch upon PyCon.
19:53 walterbender needs to head to the airport... sorry leave a few minutes early. thanks everyone,
19:53 Quozl_ go ahead, MrBIOS
19:54 MrBIOS walterbender: no worries, thanks!
19:54 pikurasa Karen asked me once if there is a way to make this system more convenient, so I think they are open to ideas. FYI
19:54 I need to go, too.
19:54 Thank you!
19:54 MrBIOS I would very much like them to consider using something as Expensify
19:54 but they would probably be opposed because it’s not OSS
19:54 Quozl_ i'm not familiar.
19:54 MrBIOS it’s an app/platform for managing expenses electronically, and submitting them in a structured, electronic format
19:54 Quozl_ but yes, in general, they won't use non-oss if they can avoid it.
19:55 despite doing so raising their own costs and our costs.  ;-)
19:55 MrBIOS eg photos of receipts, associated with the actual structured data which describes things about the expense, etc.
19:56 something to consider, I am sure there are other solutions which accomplish something similar, Expensify is just the one I’m familiar with
19:56 pikurasa It could be as simple as a simpler presentation of the important information from their policy on their website.
19:56 Bye for now.
19:56 pikurasa has quit IRC
19:56 Quozl_ pikurasa: bye.
19:56 MrBIOS yes, having it written in non-legalese (“American”) as Quozl_ pejoratively refers to it as, would be a good first start
19:56 Quozl_ eh? pejoratively? what's wrong with saying it that way?
19:57 in australia we always refer to canadians and united states of america residents as "american".
19:57 llaske has left #sugar-meeting
19:57 MrBIOS it sounds moderately hostile to me, but I don’t think it matters. We think of people who speak and write like that as lawyers being lawyers
19:57 Anyways, PyCon.
19:57 Quozl_ (the canadians don't like it, but we can't tell their accents apart).
19:58 MrBIOS samsongoddy has an accepted talk there, I believe. Samson, can you share a link to this content?
19:58 samsongoddy https://docs.google.com/docume[…]/edit?usp=sharing
19:58 walterbender has quit IRC
19:59 samsongoddy Pycon offer to purchase my international ticket
19:59 MrBIOS Thanks. I have not purchased lodging for PyCon yet, but I need to reserve something Real Soon Now.
19:59 samsongoddy But I will be needing support for NY to Ohio
19:59 local flight
20:00 MrBIOS that should not be an expensive flight.
20:00 samsongoddy Yes
20:00 it is under $300
20:00 MrBIOS before I can do that, I need to know roughly how many people we will have in attendance, assuming we are going to share
20:00 samsongoddy Perrie got accepted
20:00 MrBIOS which airport in NYC?
20:00 samsongoddy JFK
20:00 airport
20:01 But my speaker ticket didn't cover food expenses
20:01 MrBIOS there are 60 days until April 30th, which is the day PyCon begins
20:01 samsongoddy but they waived my $400 ticket
20:01 Pycon start 1st of May
20:02 I will be speaking 2nd or 3rd. I am waiting for the calendar
20:02 MrBIOS correct, but we need to arrive before then if we want to be there on the first day :)
20:02 ibiam Yeah
20:02 MrBIOS Quozl_: any thoughts here?
20:02 samsongoddy Yes
20:02 Quozl_ samsongoddy: do get on to the travel advance then, covering the parts that are not funded.  we have the money, and the board is, except lionel, in favour at the moment.
20:02 perrie I'll be attending PyCon hopefully if my visa gets accepted
20:03 samsongoddy I will send a motion to the board by mail for this advance
20:03 Quozl_ samsongoddy: in your travel advance request, list the costs you need cover for, _and_ for the record the costs that you don't need cover for.
20:03 samsongoddy Sure
20:03 I will do that
20:04 MrBIOS Quozl_:  I would like to propose a motion that we approve purchase of group/airbnb-style lodging for a handful of people, including myself. I can book it.
20:04 Quozl_ MrBIOS: by mail thanks, the meeting has gone over, and we have lost several people.
20:04 MrBIOS yes
20:04 by mail for sure
20:04 just brininging it up here so it’s on-record
20:04 Quozl_ ... just remember, about $93k and it's not going down fast enough.
20:05 MrBIOS I’ll be sure to book the ritz-carlton penthouse
20:05 Quozl_ ... we're not an investment bank.  ;-)
20:05 MrBIOS ;-)
20:05 honestly most of the hotels in the area are already booked
20:05 ibiam And they're quite expensive
20:05 samsongoddy Quozl_, I am guessing with the update from Karen. I should forget about the refunds
20:07 Quozl_ samsongoddy: yes, on motion 2019-04 there's nothing more we can do about it unless you have new information that you want the conservancy board to consider.  and we'd need to be convinced as well that the new information is worth them considering.  karen had thought it would be okay, but the feeling of her board was different.
20:08 samsongoddy I don't think I have any idea. This isn't the first time I refusing a refunds anyways
20:08 This isn't new
20:08 callaurrea has quit IRC
20:09 Quozl_ samsongoddy: ultimately, this board is at fault, our previous baord is at fault, and you share some of the fault.  i think we can see what needs to happen to make sure it doesn't happen again.  it's nothing to do with lionel, in my opinion.
20:09 samsongoddy I am not faulting lionel either
20:10 Karen saw me in london
20:10 And we briefly discussed about the situation
20:10 About the previous board
20:11 Quozl_ #topic closing meeting
20:11 samsongoddy Do you think that you can raise the issue with SFC that the board was unresponsive? As I am sure I sent in a motion immediately after my trip
20:11 Quozl_ all in favour of closing the meeting?
20:11 samsongoddy +1
20:11 MrBIOS aye, +1
20:11 samsongoddy I think I should either start ignoring trips that will require me to travel
20:12 As I don't wish to leave my comfort zone again and still keep losing money. I am not working
20:12 Quozl_ samsongoddy: karen knew our previous board was unresponsive.  she would have raised that at her board.  but that doesn't make it conservancy's responsibility; it made it even more your responsibility to wake that previous board up.
20:13 samsongoddy Quozl_, trust me I tried. I wrote to the board
20:13 Individually
20:13 general
20:13 Tried everything I could
20:13 Something similar happen in January 2018
20:13 Quozl_ samsongoddy: i only have evidence of the slobs@ mailing list.  if a board member does not respond, you should have used a telephone.
20:14 samsongoddy I was ignored
20:14 Quozl_ if they refuse to answer your calls or mail, you should try public mailing lists, carefully at first.  e.g. "please call me".
20:14 samsongoddy That all
20:15 At least that how I understood it.
20:15 Quozl_ and, once this becomes an issue, you have a responsibility to record your own actions to remedy it.
20:15 so that you can stand up in court and say "this is what i did to try to contact the board of which i was a member".
20:16 samsongoddy I did reach out to all board member
20:16 ibiam Quozl_: I don't think that sending to the mailing list would make any difference as he reached out to them personally and got no response
20:16 Quozl_ and i'm saying, based on your failure, you didn't do enough, or you did it in a way that caused them to feel they could not respond.
20:17 samsongoddy Well to my understand I simply asked that I need a vote on the motion. simple -1 or +1
20:17 won
20:17 Won't hurt
20:17 When the board was a bit confusional in early 2018
20:18 Quozl_ i don't remember a motion in slobs mailing list archives that i read; because you can't move a motion yourself for your own travel.
20:18 i'm talking about the london trip advance in late 2018.
20:19 samsongoddy it doesn't make any difference
20:19 because it happen early 2018
20:19 also
20:20 Quozl_ as i said, i'm only looking at the issue with the london trip advance, because that's the issue that i studied in detail.
20:20 samsongoddy I did what I can. Ask the board, contacted them individually
20:21 Quozl_ did you keep a diary of that?
20:21 samsongoddy Of personal conversional on social media?
20:21 FB and Hangout
20:22 I even had a meeting with lionel for him to vote -1 or +1
20:22 Quozl_ a board member is _required_ to keep these records, yes.  in summary form.  you might seek some board director training.
20:22 it irritates me that people join boards without understanding their obligations.
20:23 diary entry is like; date, tried to speak with N, no answer.
20:24 once you have identified a pattern of exclusion behaviour, your choices are to resign, raise it with the chair, or in our case raise it with the conservancy.
20:24 and you say you kept a diary, and these are the things i tried to do.
20:24 samsongoddy I can't mail SFC because it was Adam job
20:24 Quozl_ wrong.
20:25 you can mail sfc if adam was not doing his job as a plc member.
20:25 MrBIOS correct
20:25 Quozl_ because if adam was not doing his job, it means _you_ are responsible to do it.
20:25 same now, if i do not do my job as liaison with sfc, _you all_ must do it.
20:25 MrBIOS if James stops responding to us for whatever reason, we have every right (and possibly even obligation) to contact SFC directly
20:25 Quozl_ MrBIOS: yes, spot on.
20:26 samsongoddy I had a conversation with Karen about it
20:26 in person
20:26 About Adam and the failure of the board response
20:26 Quozl_ this concept in director training is "jointly and severally responsible".
20:26 samsongoddy She just told me to keep receipts
20:26 which is very important
20:27 Quozl_ yes, it is clear that karen was offering to cover adam's responsibility for a while.  she probably expected to have to process your travel claim herself.
20:27 MrBIOS right, but Karen is also not able to make unilateral decisions on the part of SFC
20:28 Quozl_ MrBIOS: it would have worked but for the additional delay that took it beyond the 90 day limit.
20:28 MrBIOS yep, and that’s the shitty part
20:28 Quozl_ MrBIOS: and we as the new board were also responsible for that delay.
20:28 MrBIOS I would hope SFC would be able to understand that, but apparently they are just too annoyed with us
20:29 Quozl_ MrBIOS: i took this morning's news of the conservancy board meeting decision as a signal that things are tight for them because of their leniency toward several projects, and we are just one of their problems.
20:30 MrBIOS tight in what sense, financially?
20:30 Quozl_ s/this morning/a few hours ago
20:30 i've no idea.  just that the other project affected had way more excuse than we did; actual illness.
20:31 MrBIOS got it
20:31 samsongoddy To be honest with you I am actually very disappointed.
20:33 This happened again for the second time
20:33 Quozl_ samsongoddy: in any board i'm on, i've always got that trump card, of resigning if nobody is listening to me.  you should be disappointed.  you should be more careful.  not all of this is your fault, but there are things you can do to improve future situations.
20:33 samsongoddy Quozl_, I am considering it.
20:35 We will be having election this year anyways
20:35 So I will see if i am still interested to re-run
20:36 Quozl_ you have a stack of disadvantages to deal with.  as do i.  just means i have to work harder to overcome them.
20:36 samsongoddy Because so far my efforts are slamming me on my face
20:36 MrBIOS utilizing SFC comes with its own set of limitations
20:36 Quozl_ i disagree, some of your efforts have paid off.
20:37 remember to count your successes as well.
20:37 samsongoddy Yes
20:38 First of all SFC rules doesn't work very well in Africa especially Nigeria.
20:38 Like for example SFC cannot book flight from Nigeria
20:38 so it is up to me to ask someone to advance it or I do it myself. After making the expenses, I always run into problems with SFC
20:39 90% board and 10% SFC
20:40 Quozl_ at pycon, put a hat out, say "donations toward travel costs are welcome, nigeria is difficult to travel from.", but don't use it as an opportunity to criticise SFC or Sugar Labs board.
20:40 samsongoddy Quozl_, I just remembered
20:40 I did contact SFC when Adam was inactive
20:40 perrie has quit IRC
20:40 samsongoddy I was told by Bradley to let Adam do his job
20:41 That is why I don't email SFC
20:41 anymore after early 2018 case
20:41 Quozl_ did you keep a copy of that you can share with alex and i?
20:41 perrie <perrie!~perrie@> has joined #sugar-meeting
20:41 samsongoddy Sure I can check my emails
20:41 Hopefully I still have a copy
20:41 MrBIOS that would be very helpful to present as evidence
20:41 but honestly should have already been presented
20:42 Quozl_ alex and i have discussed the value that sfc brings to us, and how they respond to problems.
20:42 samsongoddy I used to use IRC channel to ask for advice and questions
20:42 SFC IRC channel
20:44 Quozl_ can we finish this meeting now?  i've got things to do.  a day of safety training for ministers.  i've only got ten minutes left here.
20:44 samsongoddy Sure
20:44 Quozl_ MrBIOS: ?
20:44 samsongoddy I will forward the mail
20:46 perrie has quit IRC
20:48 MrBIOS yes please finish
20:48 Quozl_ #endmeeting
20:48 meeting Meeting ended Fri Mar  1 20:48:20 2019 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
20:48 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-01T18:58:42.html
20:48 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]19-03-01T18:58:42
20:48 Quozl_ write up and wiki updates will be delayed until monday.
20:48 bye.  disconnecting.
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