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#sugar-meeting, 2019-01-04

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19:53 walterbender hi
19:53 Quozl hi
19:53 llaske hi
19:53 walterbender Am I in time for the meeting?
19:54 Quozl walterbender: yes, another six minutes.
19:54 walterbender Great. For once I calculated correctly
19:58 pikurasa <pikurasa!~devin@fsf/member/pikurasa> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:58 pikurasa hello
19:58 Quozl pikurasa: hello.
19:59 samsongoddy Hello
20:00 Quozl #startmeeting
20:00 meeting Meeting started Fri Jan  4 20:00:43 2019 UTC. The chair is Quozl. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
20:00 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
20:01 Quozl i see we have walter, lionel, devin, james, and samson.  we do not have alex or claudia.  i'm in contact with claudia, standby.
20:01 pikurasa Quozl: thanks. I am making coffee :p
20:02 Quozl Claudia will be 15 minutes.  No answer from Alex yet.  Let's start.
20:02 #agreed quorum
20:03 #topic pending Motion 2019-01: preserve the unpaid GSoC 2018 stipend for marketing purposes, and thank the mentors who suggested this.
20:03 pikurasa: could you please vote now on this motion, just so we can get through it?
20:03 MrBIOS <MrBIOS!~aperez@> has joined #sugar-meeting
20:04 Quozl MrBIOS: welcome, we have started.  first item is pending motion 2019-01, waiting for devin to vote.  claudia expected at quarter past the hour.  rest of us here.
20:04 MrBIOS hello folks
20:04 roger.
20:04 llaske hi Alex
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20:05 walterbender Maybe he is making his coffee.
20:05 Quozl welcome to observing members pro-panda and perrie.
20:05 MrBIOS hello folks!
20:05 pro-panda Hello
20:05 perrie hello
20:05 pikurasa -1 -- I just really would like to challenge us to have more detail.
20:06 Quozl pikurasa: i respect your right to vote against it, but i think you are making a mistake, and we have no more detail yet.  what do you fear?
20:07 MrBIOS this is for the marketing material, yes?
20:07 Quozl MrBIOS: pending Motion 2019-01: preserve the unpaid GSoC 2018 stipend for marketing purposes, and thank the mentors who suggested this.
20:07 MrBIOS right
20:07 Quozl MrBIOS: it's an acknowledgement of what the mentors proposed, and binds us to no specific action.
20:08 pikurasa I do not fear much. I just think we would be off to the right start if their were more detail, even "this is what I think it might look like"
20:08 walterbender samsongoddy, if you cannot find the meeting log, I will also look for it. would be good to have the record of the decision.
20:08 pikurasa I think we might use it for these types of things: a, b, c, and d
20:09 samsongoddy walterbender, which meeeting?
20:09 walterbender samsongoddy, the meeting where we (GSoC mentors) made this decision
20:10 samsongoddy Oh I think we made that decision on email
20:10 Not on IRC
20:10 I think
20:11 So "GSoC mentor stipend "
20:11 On October 11th
20:13 About 13 mentors made discussion about the stipends
20:13 walterbender Quozl, can I make a meta observation?
20:13 Quozl walterbender: go ahead.  a point of order perhaps?
20:14 walterbender just an oberservation that may offer some context
20:15 we have a long history of bringing detailed plans and budgets to SLOBs for approval and nonetheless the SFC has persisted in asking us to approve each spending detail independently
20:15 therefore, I have little worry about the Marketing team spending this money without a plan approved by SLOB
20:16 but they should take comfort that their is an allocated budget they can work from.
20:16 MrBIOS walterbender: are you saying SFC will not cooperate if we say “we allocate $xyz for printing t-shirts, mugs, and fidget spinners’?
20:16 just want to make sure I understand the mechanics
20:17 walterbender I am saying they will not approve spedning unless it is explicitly approved by this committee
20:17 MrBIOS understood
20:17 seems sane to me.
20:17 Quozl walterbender: i agree, this behaviour by sfc is evident, but from talking to them the main reason is that members of the board have undermined decisions after they have been made, which brings into doubt the original decisions.
20:17 walterbender Perhaps
20:18 MrBIOS that’s just shitty behavior that we need to agree we will not do, in my opinion
20:18 walterbender But it doesn't matter why. It is the fact on the ground.
20:18 Quozl we are supposed to be bound jointly and severally by the decisions we make, and this means we must work to consensus rather than a majority.  so devin's objection will stop the motion in my view as chair.
20:18 MrBIOS if we disagree, it’s an internal matter, and I believe we should all collectively agree that running to SFC to whine about it is something this iteration of the SLOBs will simply pledge not to do
20:18 does that seem reasonable?
20:19 Quozl so to progress the motion devin (alone) requires a marketing plan.  we can wait for that, but while we do we would have to be careful not to bring up other objections to the motion.  can we do that?
20:20 MrBIOS: yes, whining to SFC is counter-productive; it's undermining the right of the board to deliberate.
20:20 MrBIOS right, and if we collectively and unanimously pledge to SFC that we will not to that, I think that carries some weight
20:21 s/to/do/g
20:21 walterbender I don't follow the logic of the direction the conversation. Consensus vs majority is a big change, not to be taken lightly
20:21 But we also have a spokesperson for the SFC and *all* communication should be routed through that person
20:22 including whining
20:22 MrBIOS +1
20:23 Quozl MrBIOS: scope of your +1 is?  ;-)
20:23 MrBIOS don’t whine to SFC if you disagree with a decision you don’t like as a SLOB
20:23 they don’t care, they shouldn’t care, it’s not their role to care
20:25 are we still just waiting for Devin?
20:25 Quozl SFC have become very sensitive to everything we do, because it costs them so much.  While they want a liaison to work with, once an accounting ticket involves an individual they don't want the liaison poking in and micromanaging either.
20:26 MrBIOS: yes, i'
20:26 samsongoddy I think I am lost on the Consensus vs Majority
20:26 walterbender me too
20:27 Quozl MrBIOS: yes, i'm wanting to understand why devin wants a plan, and if he thinks we need a plan first, then we can do that.
20:27 walterbender Another point of order: can we move to some other topics while we are waiting on Devin?
20:27 MrBIOS please!
20:28 Quozl samsongoddy: in consensus, every member of the board has the right to object and force us to act until they are happy and consent.  while this is new for you, it is how most organisations behave until they recognise that they have embedded positions based on political or ideological views that can't change, then they switch to majority.
20:29 ... and i don't see that devin's position is embedded.  i'm trusting it is a real concern; a lack of plan for him blocks the mentor's choice.
20:29 okay, i guess we lost devin.  i'll move on.
20:29 #rejected to mailing list
20:30 #topic gsoc 2019
20:30 i've placed this first because it is coming up next.
20:30 walterbender We need to decide whether or not to participate by I think Jan 23
20:31 Quozl do we participate?  do we have enough project ideas?  who will be organisational administrator(s)?  i propose rahul as one.
20:31 walterbender We cannot participate w/o SLOB approval
20:31 and then we also need to scope out the context of participation
20:31 pikurasa I am reading all of this. I am not "lost". Please read the email I sent nudging for a bit more detail.
20:31 llaske I think we must participate.
20:32 MrBIOS I believe we should as well
20:32 llaske I ‘ve got some ideas that I need to formalize
20:32 pikurasa I think we should participate.
20:32 Quozl benefits are aligned with our mission, google send us money, we get new volunteers for a time who may stick around.  costs are our personal time, our board meeting time, and dealing with sfc and travel for summits.
20:33 llaske btw we should have a clear process to select project and mentors
20:33 Quozl llaske: have you reviewed the GSoC repository on sugarlabs?
20:33 #link https://github.com/sugarlabs/GSoC
20:33 MrBIOS agreed, the mentors need to be much more thoroughly vetted
20:33 llaske seen it, it’s just a template
20:34 Quozl but the template does have some process to select projects and mentors.
20:34 in particular the ideas page.
20:34 walterbender While I agree we have had some poor mentoring in the past, I strongly disagree that our process is "just a template"
20:35 and I also disagree that the only benefit is $ and a few volunteers
20:35 MrBIOS educate us :)
20:35 walterbender We get exposure to a broader community through GSoC
20:35 llaske it’s a good template for candidates not for mentors
20:35 walterbender and it keeps us as part of the FOSS community
20:36 And it keeps us connected to Google, which is not a trivial player in the industry
20:36 IMHO, it would be foolish to not seize on this opportunity.
20:36 samsongoddy I agree with Walter Bender on that
20:37 Quozl samsongoddy: on what?
20:37 walterbender That said, we have been sloppy re mentors.
20:37 samsongoddy Exposure to broader community
20:37 pikurasa At least for Music Blocks, a lot of the major development advances (eg temperament) has been done by GSoC students.
20:37 walterbender And that is something we can fix
20:37 samsongoddy But the mentoring part is what I have no comment on
20:38 pro-panda llaske: I avoided _possible_ mentor selection criteria from the repository. I expected the audience to be interested students
20:38 walterbender FWIW, we discuss (and vet) projects in this forum and in email
20:38 MrBIOS my knowledge of GSoC as it relates to Sugar Labs is near zero at this point, and I’d like to fix that.
20:39 walterbender and from participation in those discussions, mentors emerge
20:39 we can tighten up that process
20:39 but I don't think it is horribly broken
20:39 llaske yes pro-panda we should do it elsewhere
20:40 Quozl MrBIOS: in my opinion the biggest negative impact of gsoc and gci is the hiding of our development conversations inside google infrastructure; open only to the mentors and students.  we lost participants in our normal channels.
20:40 walterbender Also, FWIW, we always require multiple mentors per project and never have pair of nubie mentors paired
20:40 pikurasa Quozl: not too much of the development is hidden, I think.
20:40 walterbender that still has not prevented all problems
20:41 Quozl, we cannot do anything about that for GCI
20:41 but with the exception of reviews, we make everything public in GSoC
20:42 Quozl, I have held public meetings for every project at least 1x per week every year we have participated
20:42 nothing hidden
20:42 nothing secret
20:42 MrBIOS so it sounds like it’s more of an awareness problem
20:42 walterbender but just because I have a meeting, doeesn't mean people attend
20:42 MrBIOS awareness (that this is happening openly, and where it’s happening)
20:43 right
20:43 walterbender MrBIOS, I announce the meeting schedule, which hasn't changed in years, on the mailing lists
20:44 I think people are not interested
20:44 pro-panda I remember private contact from mentors in GSoC' 18. One of them was to ask what my project was about. It was disheartening.
20:44 Claudia_ <Claudia_!421f8612@gateway/web/freenode/ip.> has joined #sugar-meeting
20:44 Quozl Claudia_: welcome, we are discussing participation in GSoC 2019.
20:44 MrBIOS pro-panda: that is really a shame.
20:44 walterbender pro-panda, we had a particular problem with your mentor situation
20:44 Claudia_ Hi, Quozl
20:45 MrBIOS Will that mentor not be welcomed back as a mentor this next cycle, as a result, or?
20:45 Quozl Claudia_: do you have any opinions on participating in GSoC?  So many opinions so far, about ready to draw it together.
20:45 walterbender which I tried to address in 2 ways: (1) pointing you to Quozl (the resident expert who was not a mentor for personal reasons) and (2) trying unsuccessfully to get your mentors to participate
20:46 ^^ pro-panda
20:46 pikurasa I do not know if this helps anyone make the decision about SL's involvement in GSoC, but in an email sent on 10/20 on a thread to mentors, Cat Allman of Google says "While we're thinking about experiments, if 2019 we're the last year of gsoc would you still want to experiment?" This, in conjunction with what I heard here and there at the summit makes me think that there is some consideration of cutting GSoC after 2019--that it may be the last ye
20:46 no "hard evidence", but it seemed to be "the tone"
20:46 pro-panda walterbender: I agree with the steps you took
20:47 MrBIOS walterbender: do you have any documentation on mentor engagement, so it can be used to inform mentor selection this cycle (GSoC ’19)?
20:47 samsongoddy I had a discussion with the team in London
20:47 Quozl every opportunity is the last though.  we can only decide on this year, not next.
20:47 walterbender pro-panda, there is no guarantee the mentoring will always work out, but your experience was atypical
20:47 Claudia_ I apologize to those waking up in the middle of the night, but the meeting has happened for a while at 4 PM EST
20:47 Quozl i had a discussion with the google open source team in sydney.
20:48 walterbender Claudia_, 20UTC
20:48 samsongoddy the problem is their team are getting smaller
20:48 But they just hired some people so I think they may change their plans or make Gsoc even bigger
20:48 Quozl Claudia_: i only used UTC, and convert it to my local.  i think perhaps your location has shifted in respect to UTC since?
20:49 MrBIOS well, we can’t do anything about that, so I’m not sure worrying about it is going to do much.
20:49 walterbender MrBIOS, I will try to pull together some records of mentor interactions
20:49 MrBIOS (about resource allocation within Google for GSoC)
20:50 Quozl Okay.  Order.  Motion 2019-02: Sugar Labs will apply for GOogle Summer of COde 2019.
20:50 Motion 2019-02: Sugar Labs will apply for Google Summer of Code 2019.
20:50 pikurasa +1
20:50 samsongoddy +1
20:50 MrBIOS +1
20:50 llaske +1
20:50 walterbender +1
20:51 Quozl Claudia_: your vote?
20:51 Claudia_ +1
20:51 llaske I can help to administrate if need
20:51 walterbender llaske, that would be great
20:51 Quozl +1.   Consensus.
20:51 The motion is passed.  Next ...
20:51 #topic GCI 2018 travel
20:52 walterbender: yours, go ahead.
20:52 walterbender I just wanted to give the board a heads up
20:52 Quozl (i picked this also because it is time related).
20:52 walterbender Google has given us $2200 ($2000 after the SFC processing fee) towards sending a mentor to the GCI summit
20:53 I am not sure yet who will be going... we usually let the grand prose winner choose.
20:53 Claudia_ Thanks, Walter... Nov and Dec reminders of the meeting had 20 UTC and (4 pm)... my mistake I did not catch the change
20:53 walterbender It may be that this year the choice will be traveling from either Africa or India
20:53 Quozl Claudia_: my mistake as chair, i could have made it more clear, sorry.
20:53 walterbender which may exceed $2000.
20:54 Google offer to "try" to help if we go over.
20:54 But I wanted the board to be aware of the situation
20:54 Claudia_ walterbender: can we allocate some funding from SLB to cover the difference?
20:55 Quozl my opinion; you may ask google to try to help, and you may dip into our $95k savings, up to $2k if needed.
20:55 walterbender we'll know more after the 7th when the GPWs are announced and I can ask them for their prference
20:55 I agree with Quozl ...
20:55 Claudia_ me too
20:56 Quozl sfc may push back and require us to make a specific decision once the costs are better known.  so perhaps we can do that later by mail, with this forewarning.
20:56 walterbender I am sure we need to do that
20:56 but I wanted to get the feel from the board for their appetite
20:57 I will tell whomever we choose that the guarranteed budget is just $2000 for the moment
20:57 Quozl llaske: as our regular africa travel objector, what's your opinion?  ;-)
20:57 walterbender with a possibility of more
20:57 pikurasa I think that Quozl's proposal sounds reasonable.
20:57 llaske has quit IRC
20:57 Quozl noted that lionel has left.
20:58 walterbender I guess that is a subtle answer :)
20:58 Claudia_ I think the trip is important, if we can make it happen, no?
20:58 pikurasa is not at all privy to what is going on
20:58 samsongoddy From both side the earlier the better
20:59 walterbender @samsongoddy, I will consult with the GPWs on Monday evening
20:59 Quozl But we don't have a winner yet.  Draft Motion 2019-03: Sugar Labs matches the Google Code-In Summit travel budget of up to $2k once a winner is known?
20:59 walterbender I cannot discuss it with them sooner than that
20:59 MrBIOS it should happen if possible, When will we have a winner?
20:59 Claudia_ sounds good to me, Quozl
20:59 walterbender Google announces on the 7th
20:59 I know the winners, but have not communicated with them
20:59 pikurasa At any rate, this all sounds fine.
21:00 Do we know which mentors *do not want to travel* to avoid their being voted on?
21:01 (and wasting time)
21:01 Quozl Order.  Motion 2019-03: Sugar Labs matches the Google Code-In Summit travel budget, by paying from our own funds up to $2k.
21:01 walterbender pikurasa, let's see what the kids decide first
21:01 Quozl (i don't think it is a waste to be prepared).
21:01 walterbender seconded
21:01 samsongoddy +1
21:01 pikurasa +1
21:01 Claudia_ +1
21:01 Quozl MrBIOS: ?
21:02 MrBIOS +1
21:02 walterbender +1
21:02 Quozl +1.  thanks.  consensus of those present.
21:02 Motion is passed.
21:02 Order.  Our time has expired for the meeting.
21:03 Does anyone need to go?  I'm happy to end there.  Any urgent issues for right now?
21:03 samsongoddy I don't think this is urgent
21:03 Claudia_ I can stay a few more min...
21:03 samsongoddy But Sugar Labs goals 2018 need to be discussed
21:04 Quozl Our next formal meeting is next month.  Can Sugar Labs goals for 2019 be discussed on the mailing list?
21:04 pikurasa I can stay, but I think SL 19 (19??) goals will take more time.
21:04 Claudia_ agree, pikurasa
21:04 walterbender I can stay too
21:04 pikurasa Yes, I agree we can discuss on mailing list.
21:04 Claudia_ what can we prepare over email between now and the next meeting?
21:04 pikurasa samsongoddy: did you have any particular ideas?
21:04 samsongoddy mailing lost sure
21:04 All the ideas are on the wiki
21:05 MrBIOS created
21:05 walterbender will send email about ideas for marketing goals/plans as well to seed further discussion
21:05 pikurasa I have seen it, but can you repost the link here now, please
21:06 Quozl Okay, as there is nothing urgent, and we agree we can use e-mail for the goals discussion, let's vote to close the meeting; all in favour?
21:06 samsongoddy https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]/2018_Submissions
21:06 +1 from me for closing
21:06 MrBIOS +1
21:06 walterbender +1
21:06 Claudia_ +1
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21:07 Quozl pikurasa:
21:07 pikurasa +1
21:07 Quozl +1
21:07 Thanks for the meeting!  I'll write up the decisions.
21:07 Claudia_ thanks, Quozl
21:07 I will update my calendar
21:08 Quozl #endmeeting
21:08 meeting Meeting ended Fri Jan  4 21:08:05 2019 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
21:08 Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-04T20:00:43.html
21:08 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]19-01-04T20:00:43
21:08 pikurasa Thanks Quozl
21:11 walterbender thanks all... ttyl
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