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#sugar-meeting, 2018-07-04

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Time Nick Message
01:23 llaske <llaske!~llaske@2a01cb00074daf00e851e217517​27692.ipv6.abo.wanadoo.fr> has joined #sugar-meeting
01:27 pikurasa <pikurasa!~devin@209.6.193.250> has joined #sugar-meeting
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02:15 a-ritwik <a-ritwik!7bc9648b@gateway/web/freenode/ip.123.201.100.139> has joined #sugar-meeting
02:16 pikurasa a-ritwik: hi
02:16 a-ritwik pikurasa: hi!
02:16 walterbender: hi
02:16 pikurasa a-ritwik: how are you?
02:17 a-ritwik pikurasa: I am fine.
02:18 walterbender hi a-ritwik
02:19 a-ritwik UPDATES
02:19 Now horizontal row below each ruler contains a table where we need to show meter length.
02:19 Currently it has format 1/x, so we can't show meter length.
02:19 walterbender a-ritwik, Maybe I was not looking at the most recent version, but I found the whole very confusing to look at.
02:20 questions the value
02:20 defers to the music teacher :P
02:21 a-ritwik walterbender: currently the value of meter length is hardcoded as 1/4
02:22 walterbender That is one source of my confusion.
02:22 pikurasa looks again (looked earlier, but thought I might see other changes by today)
02:23 walterbender I also think that making the meter row as wide (and prominent) as the rhythm row is both a waste of screen space and potentially confusing
02:23 I think it needs to be very much understated... a few pixels in height.
02:23 a-ritwik walterbender: I have harcoded 1/4 because currently we can not show meter length which are not of form 1/x.
02:24 walterbender a-ritwik, to be honest, I am more interested in the keyboard widget :)
02:24 a-ritwik walterbender: I will reduce its height.
02:24 walterbender a-ritwik, I did not follow your explanation as to why only 1/x
02:26 a-ritwik walterbender: when we open rhythm ruler initially value shown is 1/1, and if we click on it 1/2 and 1/2. and so on
02:26 pikurasa a-ritwik: walter is correct that the ruler needs to be proportionally much shorter within the widget
02:27 a-ritwik walterbender: I think rhythm ruler code is written in such way that numerator remains 1 most of times
02:27 pikurasa: I will reduce its height.
02:28 walterbender: about keyboard, I tried but could not find code for note block which collect values of pitches in the clamp.
02:30 walterbender: I wrote about it on GH
02:30 walterbender a-ritwik, it may be easier to grab the code from the Pitch Time Matrix... that collects pitches which are used in the matrix to define the rows.
02:31 a-ritwik walterbender: Thanks. I was looking at pitchslider for the code, will look at PTM.
02:31 walterbender https://github.com/sugarlabs/m[…]/js/logo.js#L3457
02:32 this.inMatrix
02:33 for example, https://github.com/sugarlabs/m[…]/js/logo.js#L3842
02:34 if you are in the Matrix clamp, the rowBlocks are added by all of the various pitch operators.
02:36 pikurasa a-ritwik: it would help me if you wrote up a little bit about what your next steps are for both widgets
02:36 walterbender https://github.com/sugarlabs/m[…]/js/logo.js#L4154
02:36 a-ritwik walterbender: thanks, I will use them.
02:37 pikurasa When I look at what you have now, I have an assumption of what is a "work in progress", but am unsure...
02:37 I want to make sure, based on what we have now, that we are all on the same page for next steps
02:37 a-ritwik pikurasa: can you see 1/4 below each ruler?
02:38 pikurasa yes
02:38 I just tried 3/4 against 4/4
02:38 why are there two rulers for one polyrhythm?
02:39 a-ritwik pikurasa: I have stored each meter value in array, but could not show it because 3/4 is not of form 1/x (where x is integer)
02:39 pikurasa I thought the idea was to have one ruler for polyrhythms...
02:39 a-ritwik: the numerator must be "1"???
02:39 walterbender a-ritwik, you can convert 0.75 into 3/4... there is a utility function for that
02:41 a-ritwik pikurasa: current code imposes that restriction, I will modify it as per our need
02:41 walterbender https://github.com/sugarlabs/m[…]ils/utils.js#L819
02:41 pikurasa 4/4 is known as "common time" b/c it is so common. So, whatever we implement needs to be able to do common time... :p
02:42 a-ritwik walterbender: I will look again at code where I have to change.
02:43 pikurasa: you were saying about two ruler for one polyrhythm, did you put one meter block for both the rulers?
02:44 pikurasa yes
02:44 and I also just tried two
02:44 which gave me the same results
02:45 Pro-Panda <Pro-Panda!31207d9f@gateway/web/freenode/ip.49.32.125.159> has joined #sugar-meeting
02:46 a-ritwik pikurasa: currently value in meter block is not used, but hardcoded value(1/4) is shown, sorry.
02:47 pikurasa also, to be clear, when I say "4/4 is common time", I mean number of beats = 4 and note value = 1/4
02:48 realized now that the way a musician says "4/4" may be ambiguous here...
02:48 riyalohia <riyalohia!6acfca55@gateway/web/freenode/ip.106.207.202.85> has joined #sugar-meeting
02:49 a-ritwik pikurasa: okay, I will mail you after making changes to use numerator which is not equal to 1.
02:50 pikurasa hi riyalohia
02:50 riyalohia pikurasa, hi
02:50 hi walterbender
02:50 a-ritwik about keyboard, currently we want output as 1/8?
02:51 *output blocks as 1/8
02:51 pikurasa a-ritwik: I think you should assess where you are at right now, and come up with an achievable end-goal for our last days of GSoC
02:51 something that would "feel done" (not perfect, but feel done) by the end of the program
02:52 and create a plan for how and when to achieve that
02:52 a-ritwik pikurasa: okay
02:53 pikurasa a-ritwik: please write up your game plan for both widgets and send it over. What are you going to do? How are you going to implement it? And when?
02:53 you can send it in an email, please
02:54 a-ritwik pikurasa: I will send it today.
02:57 pikurasa a-ritwik: thanks! Make a solid plan for success :)
03:00 riyalohia pikurasa, walterbender, I want to discuss the plan for arbitrary edit.
03:01 pikurasa riyalohia: go right ahead
03:01 a-ritwik pikurasa: thanks, I will. bye.
03:02 a-ritwik has quit IRC
03:02 riyalohia pikurasa, in recent email, you suggested to make the pitch draggable around circumference.
03:02 I am not able to understand the complete procedure for arbitrary edit.
03:05 pikurasa Preface to my comment: There are many possible solutions, and I have no idea what is easy or difficult to implement, but this is what I had in mind
03:06 walterbender IMHO, I think visually just being able to roughly position the pitches relative to each other is adequate, as long as the exact pitch number/ratio/hertz is specified in the popup box
03:07 pikurasa I imagined that you could drag one of the pitches along the circumference of the circle. You could hear the sound as you drag (much like the slider that you have now). The main difference is that you could drag around the circumference instead of inside of this box, which does not leave much context as to the chosen pitches place amongst the other pitches
03:08 walterbender I think that the degree of freedom for dragging is too small to be able to make a meaningful pitch slider
03:08 maybe a slider in the box you can adjust?
03:08 but I think we are overloading too much into the piemenu
03:08 pikurasa adjust? how?
03:09 walterbender I think of two distinct tasks
03:09 (1) inserting a new pitch between two other pitches
03:09 (2) adjusting the pitch itself
03:10 The piemenu is good for #1 but poor for #2
03:10 riyalohia walterbender, +1.
03:10 walterbender so maybe a slider (like in the pitch slider widget) that has a range between the two bordering pitches
03:11 pikurasa I could sign up on an idea like that if and only if
03:12 there is some image (however created) such that one can see the location of two pitches on their circle as the utilize the pitch slider
03:13 the reason is, once we are looking at the very small box, we lose context of the whole (octave) and the placement of existing notes (and where the note we choose lay within)
03:13 walterbender pikurasa, the pie menu (pitch circle) will be visible when the pop up and slider appear
03:13 and maybe the target pitch moves a bit as the slider is adjusted
03:13 pikurasa it is like if I just saw a subsection of my guitar string and moved some frets around within that box...
03:14 walterbender: if the target pitch moves respective of the slider's movements, that would check all my boxes
03:15 walterbender the other two pitches could be indicated on the slider as rules (frets) and labeled with their respective pitches
03:15 riyalohia opened a can of worms :)
03:16 riyalohia After selecting a tick(between any two pitches), a popup appears having pitch slider, user can adjust pitch. As the pitch slider is moved, newly added note moves on the circumference. Is this the basic idea?
03:16 walterbender yes
03:17 pikurasa yes
03:17 riyalohia okay, I will try and implement it asap :)
03:17 pikurasa great!
03:18 What I would like to talk about is what are the remaining tasks to get this to a point of "finality"?
03:18 riyalohia Also, I have implemented clear button for 0 to 0 equal edit.
03:18 pikurasa One is "save" functionality (export to a block), which I guess is simple to do
03:19 but also needs to save as custom (which may or may not be difficult -- I do not know)
03:19 We need a clear button
03:20 riyalohia pikurasa, arbitrary edit, back button for 2:1 octave space, edit button on popup, changes in musicutils.
03:21 pikurasa, I have already implemented a clear button for 0 to 0 equal edit, do I need to implement this for every edit tool?
03:21 pikurasa This is less important, but I would like to see a way to go directly back to circle after being in "add pitch mode" (really small, I know -- ignorable)
03:22 riyalohia: I noticed something in the logs, but did not see it...
03:23 riyalohia After clicking on 'done', user is directed to circle of notes.
03:24 pikurasa I see the "clear" button now
03:24 That is good
03:24 hmm... for pitch number selection, we should limit it to only existing pitches
03:25 riyalohia pikurasa, do I need to implement a clear button for every edit tool?
03:25 pikurasa one possible way to limit it is with its own pie selection
03:25 riyalohia: no
03:25 I just did not see it the first time (I expected it on the top, like our other widgets)
03:26 riyalohia pikurasa, what should we limit to existing pitches ?
03:26 pikurasa ^^ I am speaking of add for equal for my above comment about pitch number
03:26 for adding equal within pitch number x to pitch number y
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03:27 pikurasa it does not make sense to be able to put in number 15, for example, for y if our existing space is only at 12
03:27 riyalohia pikurasa, +1.
03:27 pikurasa We should not make it possible for a user to even input 15
03:27 so... we may have a pie selector of existing pitches
03:28 riyalohia pikurasa, got it!
03:28 pikurasa which would 1) eliminate any numbers outside of existing pitches
03:28 and 2) contextualize the user as to where the existing pitches are
03:29 I think octave space is fine as it is now.
03:29 riyalohia pikurasa, +1
03:29 pikurasa Ratio, as a tool, works well
03:30 (perhaps there are ways to show the information such that it is more obvious to users what it is doing, but the basic tool is good)
03:30 oh, I remember another thing on my "final steps" list
03:30 ...
03:31 well first of all (and very simple) please have the default set key also be G (not C)
03:31 or both C
03:32 just because, if we are tuning to a pitch, we should be in that pitch's key by default
03:32 It does not make sense to tune for one key, but then play in another
03:32 riyalohia: does that make sense? Should be an easy fix.
03:33 riyalohia pikurasa, do I need to change the set key block pitch to G (by default)?
03:33 pikurasa Let's, instead, change the default pitch block to C
03:34 riyalohia pikurasa, okay.
03:34 pikurasa pitch name = c; octave = 4,  set key = C, mode = major
03:34 riyalohia pikurasa, got it!
03:34 pikurasa great
03:35 As for my last little bit (and I hope this is not its own can of worms)...
03:35 riyalohia I am hoping to finish the widget work by this 14.
03:36 pikurasa The pitches that are "in key" should be a different color than the pitches that are "out of key"
03:36 walterbender riyalohia, once the widget is done, we can come back around to the remaining adjustments we need in musicutils :)
03:36 pikurasa So for C major, CDEFGAB should be one color (maybe blue hues), and the sharps and flats should be another (maybe red hues)
03:37 riyalohia pikurasa, this change should be made in circle of notes?
03:37 walterbender, sure :)
03:38 pikurasa I think this is important because one of the biggest reasons to temper the tuning is so that notes that are in key sound good, and notes that are outside of the key should sound expressive (or possibly really, really bad, depending on the temperament system)
03:38 riyalohia: yes
03:38 riyalohia pikurasa, got it.
03:38 pikurasa so change the grey to be blueish or redish depending on the selected mode
03:39 riyalohia pikurasa, okay.
03:39 pikurasa we can tweak the colors if we do not like them, but need something to start with for now
03:39 riyalohia pikurasa, +1
03:40 pikurasa That is all I have to say
03:41 riyalohia I will make the suggested changes asap. Thank you :)
03:42 pikurasa riyalohia: You have done really great work. Please keep it up. This is a really fascinating tool for me. I was playing with {G --> G# --> A --> Ab} /repeat with different temperament and it is really interesting.
03:42 riyalohia pikurasa, thank you :)
03:42 pikurasa There is a lot of confusion over temperament/tuning, and it has big implications for pedagogy
03:43 For example, if a kid sings by ear, it may be closer to just intonation (b/c they are tuning to the harmonics inside the tone)
03:43 but a teacher may say it is out of tune, because it is not in tune with the piano
03:43 well, which is correct?
03:44 I could go on and on, but I hope you see the point
03:44 riyalohia pikurasa, I see your point :)
03:44 pikurasa with a software tool, one could experiment a little bit.
03:44 riyalohia pikurasa, +1
03:44 pikurasa Then the discussion could be "well you seem to be adjusting your tuning to the overtones, but not the piano"
03:45 instead of "you're wrong"
03:45 okay, looking forward to your work riyalohia
03:45 thanks, walterbender for everything, as always!
03:46 riyalohia pikurasa, walterbender, thank you :)
03:46 pikurasa okay, I am gonna' go now. bye
03:46 walterbender good night
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03:46 riyalohia bye
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