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| 02:31 | walterbender | hi |
| 02:31 | a-ritwik | Hi |
| 02:31 | walterbender | #start-meeting |
| 02:31 | meeting | Meeting started Wed May 9 02:31:29 2018 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. |
| 02:31 | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting | |
| 02:32 | walterbender | pikurasa, I think I fixed the bug with the cursor not tracking (#1130) |
| 02:32 | so all of the interactive demos should be much more stable :) | |
| 02:32 | pikurasa | yes, I see that. |
| 02:32 | walterbender | pikurasa, what time are you in court tomorrow? |
| 02:33 | has a meeting in Cambridge from 8-8:45am | |
| 02:33 | pikurasa | I tried one of the examples and it worked well the first time. However, the second time it was very slow |
| 02:33 | walterbender: They moved the date again | |
| 02:33 | walterbender | pikurasa, hmmm... did you try refreshing the browser? |
| 02:33 | pikurasa | So I can meet anytime, anywhere |
| 02:34 | walterbender | I thought you had to be in West Newton |
| 02:34 | pikurasa | They moved the court date yet again |
| 02:35 | walterbender | Maybe Cambridge? At 9am? |
| 02:35 | a-ritwik, sorry about this banter | |
| 02:35 | pikurasa | Where in Cambridge? |
| 02:35 | walterbender | Kendall Sq? |
| 02:35 | a-ritwik | its fine |
| 02:35 | walterbender | a-ritwik, can you give a quick update? |
| 02:35 | pikurasa | Sure. I can meet at your office at 9 |
| 02:36 | walterbender | pikurasa, OK |
| 02:36 | a-ritwik | I tried understanding code for pitch time matrix |
| 02:37 | walterbender | a-ritwik, it is a bit convoluted |
| 02:37 | prob. the most complicated widget | |
| 02:37 | a-ritwik | also now using a better IDE for faster debugging. |
| 02:37 | walterbender | (except perhaps the timbre widget) |
| 02:37 | a-ritwik, the trick bits involve trying to restore the state | |
| 02:37 | a-ritwik | should I start from some easier widget? |
| 02:38 | walterbender | yes... I'd suggest tackling the rhythm ruler to start |
| 02:38 | a-ritwik | okay |
| 02:38 | walterbender | maybe first just confirm that the open issues are still valid |
| 02:39 | then jump in. I don't think any of them are too complicated | |
| 02:39 | relatively speaking | |
| 02:39 | a-ritwik | okay, I will check and comment on the issues. |
| 02:39 | pikurasa | a-ritwik: Rhythm Ruler probably still has many issues to be discovered (and fixed). |
| 02:39 | a-ritwik | also I see one pending pull request, I will fix it by today. |
| 02:40 | walterbender | a-ritwik, OK |
| 02:40 | pikurasa | a-ritwik: +1 |
| 02:40 | walterbender | a-ritwik, there is lots to do in cleaning up the lilypond code... |
| 02:41 | it is pretty brittle... not my finest moment as a programmer | |
| 02:41 | a-ritwik | yeah, many arrays are defined but are not needed that much. |
| 02:42 | walterbender | feel free to clean things up as you fix bugs |
| 02:43 | a-ritwik | pikurasa, I will try Rhythm ruler |
| 02:43 | walterbender | a-ritwik, ping me with any questions you may have. |
| 02:43 | pikurasa | a-ritwik: Please let us know if you have any questions. |
| 02:44 | walterbender | If I don't respond on IRC, ping me on gmail and I will join you here |
| 02:44 | a-ritwik | fine |
| 02:45 | does the project's timeline needs a change? | |
| 02:45 | walterbender | not yet... let's get into it to get a sense of the pace and scale of the problems.. |
| 02:45 | we can revisit the timeline next week | |
| 02:48 | riyalohia_ <riyalohia_!6acfb0f5gateway/web/freenode/ip.106.207.176.245> has joined #sugar-meeting |
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| 02:48 | a-ritwik | okay, I will ask for help when needed. |
| 02:49 | walterbender | hi riyalohia_ |
| 02:49 | riyalohia_ | walterbender, hii! |
| 02:50 | pikurasa | a-ritwik: regular communication is critical. Feel free to send communication anytime. |
| 02:50 | riyalohia_: hello! | |
| 02:50 | riyalohia_ | pikurasa, hii! |
| 02:53 | Sachiko <Sachiko!~webchatrev-18-85-44-69.sugarlabs.org> has joined #sugar-meeting |
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| 02:53 | riyalohia_ | Sachiko, hii! |
| 02:53 | pikurasa | Hi Sachiko! |
| 02:55 | walterbender | everyone is here |
| 02:55 | pikurasa | Sachiko: is everything working for you? |
| 02:56 | walterbender | Sachiko, any comments about the widgets? |
| 02:56 | pikurasa | Sachiko: 大丈夫ですか？ |
| 02:56 | walterbender | a-ritwik was going to start by reviewing the rhythm-ruler widget |
| 02:56 | not sure if you have ever tried it | |
| 02:57 | Sachiko | Hello! Can you see my comment? |
| 02:57 | pikurasa | Sachiko: yes |
| 02:57 | :) | |
| 02:57 | Sachiko: IRCへようこそ | |
| 02:57 | Sachiko | Sorry that I was late in joining this! (This is my first success to join this!:) |
| 02:58 | pikurasa | Sachiko: no problem |
| 02:59 | walterbender | welcome to IRC (old-school chat) |
| 02:59 | Sachiko | So, a-rikwik would try to start with reviewing the rhythm-ruler widget to see how he(she?) could improve it? (debugging, etc.) |
| 02:59 | walterbender | that is the plan |
| 02:59 | pikurasa | yes Sachiko |
| 03:01 | riyalohia_: I just added comments to your latest proposal draft | |
| 03:02 | riyalohia_ | pikurasa : I just saw them, I will make the changes according to your comments. |
| 03:04 | pikurasa | We should probably have something simple (even simpler than the graph) to input and visualize the pitch-space |
| 03:04 | Perhaps a circle. | |
| 03:05 | The graph would still be present, but the circle would help one identify the pitches within an octave, visually | |
| 03:06 | riyalohia_ | pikurasa, do you want me to change the temperament widget design ? |
| 03:06 | pikurasa | I imagine lines that mark proportionally the relationship between the pitches (the visual distance would be equal to [logarithmic] pitch distance) |
| 03:06 | riyalohia_: you do not need to change much, just add | |
| 03:07 | add a circle | |
| 03:07 | looks for my creations... | |
| 03:08 | Sachiko | pikurasa, are you meaning the circle of the 5th? or the circle which has do do # re ... in this order? |
| 03:08 | pikurasa | never mind finding my own for now. Something like this: http://openmusictheory.com/Gra[…]h-class-Space.jpg |
| 03:08 | Sachiko: not circle of fifths... in chromatic order | |
| 03:09 | so that one can see the tuning relationships | |
| 03:09 | I found that image here: http://openmusictheory.com/mod12.html | |
| 03:09 | riyalohia_ | pikurasa, this circle would be a part of widget ? |
| 03:09 | pikurasa | riyalohia_: yes, output, like the graph |
| 03:10 | walterbender | pikurasa, I imagine that as the mouse hovers over a circle, the data for that entry is displayed? |
| 03:10 | pikurasa | walterbender: in hertz? |
| 03:11 | walterbender | maybe in several different formats |
| 03:11 | hertz, the ratio if available... | |
| 03:12 | different entries from the table | |
| 03:12 | pikurasa | hmmm... there could be a "free-form" (hertz) and computational (ratio or other calculation method). |
| 03:12 | somewhat similar to what we have for pitch staircase... | |
| 03:12 | riyalohia_ | pikurasa, so when user clicks on the temperament block, widget appears along with the circle? |
| 03:12 | Sachiko | I see. Is it to be drawn according to the "cent" (one circle = 1200 cent) to see the difference of the scales? (temperament, Pythagorian, intonation...) or just a simple one with 12 points, the length between the 2 points of which are all equal? (sorry for my bad English...) |
| 03:12 | pikurasa | riyalohia_: are you familiar with pitch staircase? |
| 03:13 | riyalohia_: *the pitch staircase widget for MB | |
| 03:13 | riyalohia_ | pikurasa, yes! |
| 03:14 | pikurasa | Sachiko: it would have 12 points when a 12 pitch system is selected |
| 03:14 | Sachiko: but could have (almost) any number (up to a limit, I suppose) | |
| 03:14 | walterbender | Sachiko, maybe we can drag the points on the circle as one way of adjusting the numbers |
| 03:14 | Sachiko | so the length between 2 points could be different according to the pitch system? |
| 03:15 | pikurasa | (some kids try to break the program by putting millions into these widgets) :p |
| 03:15 | walterbender | Sachiko, I think that would be nice |
| 03:16 | pikurasa | Sachiko: yes |
| 03:16 | Sachiko: and could be altered, if desired | |
| 03:16 | walterbender | In the picture Devin shared, it would be equal temperament since it is equal spacing |
| 03:16 | pikurasa | Sachiko: did you see riya's proposal? |
| 03:16 | walterbender | but it could be changed |
| 03:17 | Sachiko | Thanks! If we could "see" the difference of the scales by how 12 points are put on the circle, that would be nice, I think... |
| 03:17 | pikurasa | and could be changed arbitrarily or by a calculation (e.g. ratio) |
| 03:17 | walterbender | yes |
| 03:17 | Sachiko | Pikurasa, yes! I saw that. |
| 03:18 | pikurasa | Sachiko: +1 |
| 03:18 | walterbender | Sachiko, in IRC world, +1 means, "I agree" |
| 03:19 | pikurasa | it's similar to "a like" |
| 03:19 | and probably why Google called their social network service "Google Plus"... | |
| 03:19 | Sachiko | Oh, I see! |
| 03:20 | pikurasa | riyalohia_: does this sound okay to you? |
| 03:20 | I just thought it needed something to make it a little less abstract | |
| 03:20 | riyalohia_ | pikurasa, walterbender : when will the circle appear (I'm still confused) |
| 03:21 | walterbender | riyalohia_, I image that it is always present, along with the table |
| 03:21 | and that you can edit in either place | |
| 03:22 | pikurasa | riyalohia_: I suppose when you click on the temperament (widget) block (similar to the other widgets) |
| 03:22 | walterbender | riyalohia_, always present in the widget |
| 03:22 | pikurasa | I suppose that would be this image under "implementation in your proposal |
| 03:22 | *"implementation" | |
| 03:23 | and, yes, always present | |
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| 03:23 | walterbender | riyalohia_, have you played with the mode widget? |
| 03:23 | pikurasa | it basically has the same info as the graph, but is a different representation of the information |
| 03:23 | riyalohia_ | I got it! |
| 03:24 | walterbender | Sachiko, have you seen the mode widget? |
| 03:24 | riyalohia_ | walterbender ,no! |
| 03:24 | walterbender | check it out... it also has a circle, but just done as an HTML table |
| 03:25 | but it has some similarities | |
| 03:25 | pikurasa | https://github.com/sugarlabs/m[…]#44-musical-modes |
| 03:26 | Sachiko | I think I am now checking this...:) Everything on my PC is translated into Japanese... but I think mode widget is "調の設定". RIght? > pikurasa |
| 03:26 | riyalohia_ | walterbender, pikurasa: the widget table already has too many entries, maybe we can add an auto scroll to make the circle visible? |
| 03:27 | Sachiko has quit IRC | |
| 03:27 | pikurasa | the temperament circle would need to be like a "high definition" version of the current mode widget |
| 03:27 | walterbender | I think the table is less useful as a UI element |
| 03:28 | I suspect that the circle would be where the use would work and then call up the table as one form of reviewing | |
| 03:28 | pikurasa | some of the same info could be "tooltips" when hovering over the circle |
| 03:29 | walterbender: yes! | |
| 03:29 | walterbender | so the UI is the circle and one alternative visualization is the table and the output is blocks |
| 03:29 | and the blocks are used to change the internal table used to drive the synth | |
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| 03:30 | walterbender | make sense? |
| 03:30 | Sachiko, http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]etings/2018-05-09 has what you missed while you were disconnected | |
| 03:32 | riyalohia_ | walterbender , pikurasa, maybe we can add an extra button in the widget itself, the circle will appear by clicking on that button.? |
| 03:32 | walterbender | riyalohia_, sure... |
| 03:32 | but maybe the button toggles between the circle and the table> | |
| 03:32 | riyalohia_ | walterbender , +1 |
| 03:33 | walterbender | I suspect that most people will want to default to the circle |
| 03:33 | pikurasa | Sachiko: "Mode Widget" is カスタム音階...at least in the version on https://musicblocks.sugarlabs.org/ |
| 03:33 | riyalohia_ | I'll change my design proposal according to the circle. |
| 03:34 | pikurasa | and Set Mode is 調の設定 |
| 03:34 | which I am sure is weird. :p | |
| 03:34 | walterbender | "�怒�踴��喲�" |
| 03:34 | is custom mode | |
| 03:34 | pikurasa | walterbender: ?? |
| 03:34 | walterbender | oops... encoding bug |
| 03:34 | one sec | |
| 03:35 | pikurasa | what I typed matches what I see... |
| 03:35 | walterbender | カスタム音階 |
| 03:36 | Sachiko | Thank you Walter and Pikurasa. But... sorry to say this, but personally, if I could see the ratio and numbers in the table, that would be also quite easy to understand... Or "cent" would be written next to the point in the circle? Can I set that by putting the number? (not just dragging the point) |
| 03:36 | walterbender | Sachiko, yes... you should be able to see the numbers above the circle and edit them |
| 03:36 | pikurasa | Sachiko: The circle representation reinforces the graph representation. |
| 03:36 | walterbender | as hertz or cents or a ratio |
| 03:37 | pikurasa | It is not either or... it is both... multiple representations |
| 03:37 | walterbender | "if you don't understand something more than one way, you don't understand it" -- Minskey |
| 03:37 | Minsky | |
| 03:38 | Sachiko | I see.... if so, I think it's OK! I just was not sure how the design would be... In the table it's quite easy to see the both or 3 ways of expressions. But on the circle... isn't it difficult? |
| 03:39 | walterbender | Sachiko, there would be a box floating above the circle with those data |
| 03:39 | Sachiko, the table is quite overwhelming unless you are used to looking at those data | |
| 03:40 | Sachiko | I see... do you have clear image> Riya? Walter, Pikurasa, I see your points, too! |
| 03:40 | walterbender | Sachiko, I think we want the learner to get to the point where the table is the preferred interface |
| 03:40 | pikurasa | For those unfamiliar with the nature of pitch, the proportions would be hard to pinpoint with just the numbers |
| 03:40 | walterbender | but to start, a visual representation would be best, IMHO |
| 03:41 | Sachiko | I see! |
| 03:41 | walterbender | any more questions/comments for tonight/today? it is getting late here in Boston |
| 03:42 | pikurasa has a baby, so he is used to not sleeping :) | |
| 03:42 | riyalohia_ | walterbender, pikurasa , sachiko : the ratios for the traditional temperament are editable? |
| 03:42 | pikurasa | quite late... and baby just woke up |
| 03:42 | riyalohia_: yes, but once edited they become custom | |
| 03:42 | walterbender | riyalohia_, as soon as you edit them, then it because a custom temperament |
| 03:42 | becomes | |
| 03:43 | riyalohia_ | walterbender, pikurasa, maybe we can discuss this later (its quite late in Boston) |
| 03:43 | walterbender | riyalohia_, we've introduced enough changes for one meeting :) |
| 03:44 | pikurasa | riyalohia_: Please add this to your proposal. We can take a look and see if it is on the right track |
| 03:44 | riyalohia_ | walterbender, yes :) |
| 03:44 | pikurasa | riyalohia_: the proposal is otherwise very good. |
| 03:44 | Sachiko | I do think so, too! Great proposal! |
| 03:44 | riyalohia_ | pikurasa,Sachiko : thank you... I'll definitely add this to my proposal :) |
| 03:45 | pikurasa | teaches a lot of kids, so when I thought about it I suspected we needed one more way of showing the info. Let's spend a little more time and get something we can all agree on. |
| 03:45 | riyalohia_: Thanks! Keep up the really great effort. | |
| 03:45 | Okay, I gotta' get back to family | |
| 03:45 | Cheers! | |
| 03:45 | bye | |
| 03:45 | walterbender | good night. |
| 03:45 | thanks everyone | |
| 03:45 | riyalohia_ | pikurasa , thank you for the motivation :) |
| 03:46 | walterbender | #end-meeting |
| 03:46 | meeting | Meeting ended Wed May 9 03:46:00 2018 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4) |
| 03:46 | Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-09T02:31:29.html | |
| 03:46 | Log: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]18-05-09T02:31:29 | |
| 03:46 | Sachiko | Bye! Cheers! |
| 03:46 | pikurasa | Thanks again, everyone |
| 03:46 | a-ritwik | bye |
| 03:46 | riyalohia_ | Bye! |
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![http://openmusictheory.com/Gra[…]h-class-Space.jpg](http://openmusictheory.com/Graphics/postTonal/Pitch-class-Space.jpg){kind=link}
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