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#sugar-meeting, 2017-11-03

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18:59 walterbender hi bernie_
19:00 hi bertf
19:00 any SLOB members here?
19:00 bertf hi walterbender
19:00 walterbender ElVerma, icarito CanoeBerry ping
19:00 ElVerma Hello
19:01 walterbender not a quorum yet :P
19:01 kaametza hello all
19:01 ElVerma :-)
19:02 walterbender hi kaametza
19:02 kaametza hello walterbender
19:02 walterbender still waiting for one more...
19:04 we can start without a quorum in a couple of more minutes... people can read the logs
19:04 ElVerma ok
19:05 kaametza I just sent an election report to the SLOBs mailing list with election details
19:05 walterbender #start-meeting
19:05 meeting Meeting started Fri Nov  3 19:05:28 2017 UTC. The chair is walterbender. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
19:05 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
19:05 walterbender before we begin and while we are waiting, I have a few remarks
19:05 A few more thoughts to share from the Ruth Bader Ginsburg biography:
19:06 "None of us, lawyer or layman, teacher or student, in our society must ever feel that to express a conviction, honestly and sincerely maintained, is to violate any unwritten law of manners or decorum." -- William J. Brennan
19:06 Brenna was a US Supreme Count Justice
19:06 At the same time:
19:06 "[L]anguage impugning the motives of a colleague does nothing to futher cordial relationships on the court." -- Collins J. Seitz
19:07 Seitz counseled "waiting a day before deciding whether to send a biting response."
19:07 Ginsberg recommends waiting "a week or two".
19:07 I am recommending waiting even longer.
19:07 I've done a lot of introspection and thinking about this oversight board.
19:08 As far as the purpose of this oversight board, it is not to micromanage. An underlying premise of the Sugar community is respect for the ideas, motives, and ecisions of others. We appoint representatives not to run roughshod over our various communities and teams, but rather to advise and communicate. In my opinion, our buggest transgressions have been that We've been heavyhanded in imposing our opinions on the com
19:08 munity rather than letting the community make its own mistakes and learn from them. There is a large gulf between questioning and dictating.
19:08 My ambition for this new season of the Sugar Labs oversight board is that we look forward, to big issues, and not get caught up in the trivial or the mechanical.
19:08 Back to basics: what are our goals for Sugar users? Unless we answer that question, we are rudderless. Perhaps we can take that topic up at our December meeting. Today, we seem to have a full agenda.
19:09 so... let's get started... even without a quorum. Not sure there is much that requires formal action as much as discussion
19:09 bertf Maybe we can start with me, so I can leave before the rest of SLOBs business?
19:10 walterbender +1
19:10 Let me summarize first
19:10 #topic Report by Ombudsman about the Code of Conduct Arbitration requested by a member on October 4, 2017
19:10 Bert resigned out of frustration that his words were not being heard. I think his last note to SLOB was pretty clear. Unless we change, we will fail.
19:10 "[P]ersonal fights poison the general discussion. They also go in the public archives for eternity, deterring others from joining the community."
19:10 Regarding the dispute between Laura and Caryl, Bert remarked that "​I asked her, in private. That's how adults solve conflicts, not by interpreting everything in the worst way possible.​"
19:10 "​In my mind this is all part of a larger issue that can not be solved in isolation. Singling out Caryl to be reprimanded is not something I will recommend, since this was not the only case when someone felt harassed.
19:10 "What I would recommend is something like a public statement by the SLOBs that calls for starting  a civilized, courteous discussion despite all the personal differences. To prepare that statement, the SLOBs would have to make peace with each other first - especially Walter and Laura. You folks will still have differences, but if you don't even try to have a courteous discussion, you can as well just give up on the
19:10 project completely. Nobody wants that, so trying to work with each other even though you may never agree on some points is the only option."
19:10 Well, the only one who seems to have followed through with this recommendation is our youngest member, Samson. It seems the rest of us can learn something from the youth.
19:11 bertf, anything to add to that summary?
19:11 bertf that pretty much sums it up
19:11 walterbender bertf, I didn't thank you publicly for your help
19:12 I appreciate your patience
19:12 and your integrity
19:12 you'll be missed
19:12 I only hope we can do better to live up to the aspirations of the community going forward
19:13 but I see little evidence that there will be any change
19:13 which is discouraging
19:13 bertf That is why I am resigning, yes.
19:13 walterbender We'll need to take some action to find a suitable replacement
19:14 It will not be easy
19:14 kaametza Am sad for bert's decision and woul like to insist on the need for a response team
19:14 walterbender kaametza, can you please explain what a "response team" is?
19:14 and why you "insist" upon it?
19:16 kaametza yes Walter, according to the Geek feminism Anti-harrasement Policy I proposed, there is a need to create a Response Team who deals with the procedure in case one community member feels he/she has been harrassed
19:17 the response team counts with a detalied list of what the community has defined as harrassement and therefore the response team acts accordingly
19:17 samsongoddy <samsongoddy!~androirc@41.190.2.155> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:17 walterbender kaametza, (1) you were quite outspoken that I was mistaken in referring to the issue between you and Caryl as harrassment
19:17 samsongoddy Hello guys
19:17 Sorry i am late
19:17 walterbender so I am not sure why this is relevant to the current discussion
19:17 samsongoddy, please read the backlog
19:17 bertf I would suggest that what is missing first is love, not force. Yes there needs to be a procedure to uphold the CoC, but you cannot force people to *want* to cooperate.
19:18 CanoeBerry https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Decision_panels can be considered if there is a true emergency of some kind.  If I recall this was only used once to date, over the past decade.
19:18 walterbender kaametza, and I don't see how a "team" would give you satisfaction that Bert's intervention was unable to help
19:18 so please explain further what I am not understanding
19:18 CanoeBerry bertf: thanks for joining, during those very few minutes you have left.
19:19 kaametza walterbender, am not really interested in insisting on this anymore
19:19 walterbender, I can not continue putting my time into this matter
19:19 walterbender kaametza, you just got trhough insisting
19:19 and I am asking for clarification
19:20 @bertf As Andrew Jackson once said to the US Supreme Count: You made you decision, now see if you can enforce it.
19:20 referring to a toothless board :)
19:20 CanoeBerry CoC = https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_of_conduct ?
19:20 bertf CanoeBerry: yes
19:22 walterbender In any case, I think that our current guidelines are such that we accept the arbitration by the ombudsman
19:22 that seems to not be the case at least from one party.
19:22 bertf kaametza: what would you imagine I should have done, if I still don't think Caryl deserves public punishment?
19:22 walterbender but I am not sure what else we can do as a board
19:23 kaametza bertf a private moderation notice
19:23 I don't feel I am in a safe space in Sugar Labs mailing lists anymore...
19:24 that will continue to be the case as long as we don't upgrade our Code of Conduct
19:24 bert has agreed there is a need for improvement and so many other members along the years
19:25 bertf But you also disagree with the private moderation notice I sent you
19:25 so that notice did not achieve much
19:25 walterbender kaametza, I apologize for my redundant question... how does a revised code of conduct make any difference if the individuals involved don't seem to want to change their behavior?
19:25 kaametza I don't undrstand what you mean by that  bertf
19:26 walterbender kaametza, I am loath to put words in your mouth, but... you raised a concern about conduct, we invoked the available mechanism, and you seem to be rejecting the results
19:26 I don't know what else we can do
19:27 kaametza walterbender, I have made 3 advises for the Code of Conduct upgrade:
19:27 walterbender you did not explain how that would make any difference
19:28 samsongoddy_ <samsongoddy_!294f0706@gateway/web/freenode/ip.41.79.7.6> has joined #sugar-meeting
19:28 walterbender and that is beside the point of your not accepting the current decision
19:28 which would be under the current guidelines
19:28 kaametza walterbender, can you explain what you mean by "current decision"?
19:29 walterbender kaametza, did you not read the email bertf sent?
19:29 he put lots of time and effort into a reconciliation
19:29 which you reject
19:29 kaametza well Bert has sent many emails to me
19:29 I did not
19:29 walterbender he sent a summary email to the group
19:29 kaametza walterbender, you are confusing things
19:30 walterbender kaametza, please enlighten me
19:30 kaametza I feel we should go back to the agenda for today's meeting
19:30 <kaametza> I just sent an election report to the SLOBs mailing list with election details
19:31 walterbender kaametza, please do not change topics
19:31 kaametza, we need to finish the discussion of the topic at hand
19:31 kaametza walterbender, I refuse to discuss this topic with you
19:31 walterbender I asked for an clarification
19:32 kaametza I specically requested Bert for you to recuse from the arbitration request and he ignored me
19:32 walterbender kaametza, I was not involved in the arbitration
19:32 bertf kaametza: I did not talk to walter at all while I talked to you.
19:32 walterbender kaametza, I think we are at an impasse
19:32 kaametza bertf walterbender is talking to me about it righ now
19:33 walterbender kaametza, the decision was made
19:33 bertf kaametza: my decision is made, so now the SLOBs need to find a way forward
19:33 walterbender you "insisted" on some changes to our code of conduct
19:33 which is what I thought we were discussing
19:34 and I was asking (repeated) for clarification as to why you think it will make a difference
19:35 but since you seem to be demanding that I not participate in that discussion -- how we move forward -- I think it is time to move on with the agenda.
19:35 kaametza there is a reason why communities adopt the anti-harrasement policies
19:35 walterbender I am sorry you were not able to get satisfaction
19:35 kaametza there is also a lot of good reasons why communities adopt diversity statements
19:36 I can not understand why is there so much resistance from your part
19:36 walterbender kaametza, there is also a reason why we discuss things in a community rather than "insisting" that changes be made and by excluding input from community members
19:37 kaametza, I will ask again, why do you think this change will make a difference. If my asking questions is "resistance" then so be it
19:37 kaametza walterbender, the adoption of definitions will set the rules clear
19:38 walterbender kaametza, I don't understand
19:38 kaametza, maybe you can send an email
19:38 we need to move on
19:38 kaametza what needs to be defined is: what is understood as harrassement, what is understood as bullying and what is understood as discrimination
19:38 walterbender we have only#topic Report by Ombudsman about the Code of Conduct Arbitration requested by a member on October 4, 2017
19:38 Bert resigned out of frustration that his words were not being heard. I think his last note to SLOB was pretty clear. Unless we change, we will fail.
19:38 "[P]ersonal fights poison the general discussion. They also go in the public archives for eternity, deterring others from joining the community."
19:38 Regarding the dispute between Laura and Caryl, Bert remarked that "​I asked her, in private. That's how adults solve conflicts, not by interpreting everything in the worst way possible.​"
19:38 "​In my mind this is all part of a larger issue that can not be solved in isolation. Singling out Caryl to be reprimanded is not something I will recommend, since this was not the only case when someone felt harassed.
19:39 "What I would recommend is something like a public statement by the SLOBs that calls for starting  a civilized, courteous discussion despite all the personal differences. To prepare that statement, the SLOBs would have to make peace with each other first - especially Walter and Laura. You folks will still have differences, but if you don't even try to have a courteous discussion, you can as well just give up on the
19:39 project completely. Nobody wants that, so trying to work with each other even though you may never agree on some points is the only option."
19:39 Well, the only one who seems to have followed through with this recommendation is our youngest member, Samson. It seems the rest of us can learn something from the youth. 20 minutes left
19:39 #topic Report by Ombudsman about the Code of Conduct Arbitration requested by a member on October 4, 2017
19:39 Bert resigned out of frustration that his words were not being heard. I think his last note to SLOB was pretty clear. Unless we change, we will fail.
19:39 "[P]ersonal fights poison the general discussion. They also go in the public archives for eternity, deterring others from joining the community."
19:39 Regarding the dispute between Laura and Caryl, Bert remarked that "​I asked her, in private. That's how adults solve conflicts, not by interpreting everything in the worst way possible.​"
19:39 "​In my mind this is all part of a larger issue that can not be solved in isolation. Singling out Caryl to be reprimanded is not something I will recommend, since this was not the only case when someone felt harassed.
19:39 "What I would recommend is something like a public statement by the SLOBs that calls for starting  a civilized, courteous discussion despite all the personal differences. To prepare that statement, the SLOBs would have to make peace with each other first - especially Walter and Laura. You folks will still have differences, but if you don't even try to have a courteous discussion, you can as well just give up on the
19:39 project completely. Nobody wants that, so trying to work with each other even though you may never agree on some points is the only option."
19:39 Well, the only one who seems to have followed through with this recommendation is our youngest member, Samson. It seems the rest of us can learn something from the youth.
19:39 sorry
19:39 bad paste
19:39 #topic 2017-2019 Elections Report and Welcome to new Board members
19:39 plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
19:39 Laura sent an email report
19:40 I think we need to appoint new representatives to the membership committee as the current representative(s) are all potential candidates for the next election
19:41 bertf I will send an email about the arbitration request and my resignation to the public list. And I wish you all the best. Bye
19:41 Quozl bertf: thanks.
19:41 CanoeBerry Prior Topic: Bert Freudenberg's resignation as Ombudsperson for Sugar Labs is tragic beyond words.  Everybody needs to ponder where we will find our next conciliatory peacebuilder - active listener - de-escalator quite those patient qualities Bert demonstrated over most a decade here.
19:41 ElVerma Thx bertf
19:42 bertf Thank you
19:42 samsongoddy_ thanks berft
19:42 sad to see you go
19:42 bertf has left #sugar-meeting
19:43 walterbender I'll send email soliciting potential ombudsman candidates
19:43 meanwhile, the damage is done
19:44 kaametza walterbender, so can we discuss if instead one ombudsman we can have a "response team"?
19:44 diversity is needed in our community
19:44 at least 3 members
19:45 at least one female
19:45 walterbender We can certainly consider it
19:45 kaametza thank you
19:46 I say we had pretty good candidates this year and we can certainly use the talent we have attracted
19:48 walterbender The topic of discussion is the election
19:48 I proposed we chose a new representative to the members/election committee
19:48 any thoughts re this topic?
19:48 CanoeBerry What is the current makeup of the MEC?
19:49 kaametza I want to thank all candidates for their efforts
19:49 ElVerma This is for the next election cycle, right?
19:49 walterbender yes
19:49 CanoeBerry, right now, there are 3 SLOB members and 3-4 community members
19:49 the 3 slob members are all potential candidates for the next election cycle
19:49 so I think we need to make some changes
19:49 ElVerma MEC's role is largely operational, so it helps to have some overlap for organizational memory's sake.
19:49 kaametza I also want to thank the wiki and systems suport
19:50 ElVerma However, of course, if they are candidates, then we need new people
19:50 walterbender ElVerma, yes... but
19:50 we cannot have the appearance of conflicts of interest
19:50 ElVerma +1
19:51 walterbender we need a representative
19:51 samsongoddy_ we can work with the existing people if possible, but without me, laura or ignacio
19:51 CanoeBerry MEC's 6 current names @ https://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/[…]ections_Committee
19:51 samsongoddy_ my thought
19:51 walterbender the committee make up itself can be decided by the commity
19:51 committee
19:52 so we need a SLOB member to step forward
19:52 samsongoddy_ i have been in the committe for years
19:52 i can continue
19:52 kaametza I think Ignacio's fail to hold the teachnical part of the elction should be consider
19:52 walterbender not if you plan to run for reelection
19:52 samsongoddy_ but i will releave duty when election is nearby
19:53 walterbender then you need to step aside for this cycle
19:53 samsongoddy_ sure
19:53 you mean me?
19:53 walterbender I mean all three of you
19:53 samsongoddy_ yes
19:53 ElVerma I'll do it
19:53 walterbender It is not right to be on the election committee when you are a candidate
19:53 samsongoddy_ i agree
19:53 walterbender ElVerma, thanks
19:53 samsongoddy_ thanks
19:53 CanoeBerry Is Dave Crossland a de facto part of this group?
19:54 samsongoddy_ yes
19:54 CanoeBerry
19:54 walterbender #topic Discussion on directions to Conservancy to announce the new Board members
19:54 nothing changed to so nothing to do
19:54 kaametza walterbender, we should still communicate we hold the elections
19:55 walterbender kaametza, I cannot parse that
19:55 CanoeBerry ElVerma: thank you..if you need the emails for MEC's Ibiam Chihurumnaya, Hrishi Patel and Pericherla Seetaramaraju let us know?
19:56 samsongoddy_ ElVerma; feel free to ask questions
19:56 ElVerma Thx. Will do.
19:56 walterbender kaametza, My understanding it that the SFC wants to know when the board has changed. It hasn't. Nonetheless, Adam, can you please let Karen know we held an election and that nothing changed?
19:57 CanoeBerry Yes
19:57 walterbender thx
19:57 #topic Discussion on Sugar Labs financial report and strategies to follow for the next period
19:57 kaametza I have to go to class now
19:57 walterbender bye
19:58 we still have a few more minutes...
19:58 kaametza thanks everyone and sorry we missed Lionel and Ignacio
19:58 walterbender re finances, I am more concerned about getting our internal house in order before investigating new funding opportunities
19:59 samsongoddy_ +1
20:00 walterbender I've a lot of things cooking, but I will wait before trying to close on these opportunities
20:00 kaametza some how I was expecting slobs to thank the Committe for their efforts in this years elections
20:01 I hope our community finds fair procedures for resources distribution
20:01 walterbender we are at the end of our hour
20:01 Before we go... note that we are participating in GCI
20:02 and Ignacio and I have been soliciting mentors and tasks
20:02 any parting words before we adjourn?
20:02 kaametza One final share, we participated on the 8th Latinamerican congress for Educational Libre Software
20:02 many new Azucar fans!
20:02 CanoeBerry kaametza: MEC is hard work indeed, thanks to all who invested over recent months.
20:03 ElVerma Thanks to the MEC for running the elections cycle. Onward and upward.
20:04 walterbender +1
20:04 I need to go
20:04 #end-meeting
20:04 kaametza thx CanoeBerry and ElVerma I hopoe for the best
20:04 meeting Meeting ended Fri Nov  3 20:04:28 2017 UTC. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. (v 0.1.4)
20:04 ElVerma Bye
20:04 meeting Minutes: http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]-03T19:05:28.html
20:04 Log:     http://meeting.sugarlabs.org/s[…]17-11-03T19:05:28
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