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23:03 | kaametza | hola a todos! |
23:03 | icarito | hola |
23:05 | kaametza | #start meeting Topic: Sugar and Sugar Web UI and UX Design Team |
23:07 | #startmeeting | |
23:07 | meeting | Meeting started Thu Sep 21 23:07:13 2017 UTC. The chair is kaametza. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. |
23:07 | Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting | |
23:08 | kaametza | #Topic 2017-1 Sugar and Sugar Web UI and UX Design Team/Actions/Ideas Meeting |
23:08 | Pato_Acevedo, icarito, walterbender, Quozl thanks for expressing interest in today's meeting | |
23:09 | I understand many won't be able to make it today still, I hope to be able to continue leading periodic meetings | |
23:10 | icarito, ya que solo estamos tu y yo, prefires que nos comuniquemos en castellano? | |
23:10 | icarito | si |
23:10 | kaametza | bien |
23:11 | walterbender | I think there are many non-Spanish speakers here |
23:11 | icarito | disculpa walter |
23:11 | kaametza | hola walterbender |
23:11 | Quozl | yes, lots of non-spanish speakers. why exclude us? |
23:11 | kaametza | :D oh no sorry |
23:11 | icarito | salutations |
23:11 | kaametza | I celebrate you joining |
23:12 | I | |
23:12 | I like to think this team will deal with several UI an UX upgrading opportunities for Sugar and Sugar-Web. | |
23:12 | icarito, can you translate to Spanish pls? | |
23:12 | Quozl | what is sugar-web? |
23:13 | icarito | kaametza, can't do that and think, sorry |
23:14 | sugar-web is the js lib underlying web activities | |
23:14 | https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-web/ | |
23:14 | kaametza | hummm walterbender can you lead me here please, how does the translations of the meeting work? |
23:14 | Quozl | icarito: thanks, Sugar Web is the activity API for JavaScript activities. |
23:14 | walterbender | kaametza, not sure if it is working... I just tried #sugar-meeting-es |
23:15 | maybe the bot is down | |
23:15 | Quozl | kaametza: do you have any only-spanish-speaking people here? i've not seen any. you mentioned Pato_Acevedo but there is no nick name present with those letters. |
23:16 | walterbender | and what about sugar-toolkit? or is the interest only in sugar and the web API? |
23:16 | icarito | yes sugar-toolkit as well |
23:16 | keep consistency | |
23:16 | Quozl | what about sugarizer? |
23:16 | kaametza | Quozl, in my ideal user experience a Sugar user will be reading today's meeting |
23:17 | Quozl | kaametza: i don't understand what you mean by "Quozl, in my ideal user experience a Sugar user will be reading today's meeting" |
23:17 | kaametza | Majority if Sugar users today speak spanish |
23:17 | Quozl | kaametza: but these Sugar users of which you speak, they aren't here now, so translation can occur later. |
23:17 | icarito | sugarizer is Lionel's project but he's expressed consent for alternative instances to appear |
23:18 | kaametza | I mean Sugar users need to be incorporated to the upgrading cycle - majority are non Engligh speakers |
23:18 | icarito | we've started at http://laboratoriosazucar.org/azucarizador/ |
23:18 | Quozl | i'll restate my question; is the scope of your design effort to include sugarizer design elements? |
23:19 | kaametza: i don't understand what you mean by "I mean Sugar users need to be incorporated to the upgrading cycle - majority are non Engligh speakers" ... you don't seem to have answered my question "do you have any only-spanish-speaking people here in this meeting?" | |
23:19 | kaametza | icarito, I really enjoy the experience in the "azucarizador" |
23:20 | icarito | Quozl, no there are no only Spanish speakers here |
23:20 | Quozl | icarito: good, thanks. there is no need for translation now, translation can be done later. |
23:20 | icarito | Quozl, why do you insist on that topic |
23:20 | kaametza | I also notice the Jappy activity is included |
23:20 | icarito | we're already speaking English |
23:21 | kaametza | and the strings are in Spanish :S |
23:21 | icarito | it's Sugarizer |
23:21 | with only the center icon change for now | |
23:21 | Quozl | icarito: i am not insisting, i am responding to the discussion above where you and kaametza and walterbender spoke about the automatic translation feature of the meeting robots. |
23:21 | kaametza | Thanks to you and Lionel and teams, great tools for the teachers! |
23:23 | On another Topic to be discussed, I have proposed a Design Marathon for October, please ping if intersted in contributing | |
23:23 | icarito | I find Sugarizer easier to approach for rapid prototyping so I could do that and when there's been discussion/consensus we can work into pull requests for sugar proper |
23:23 | Quozl | i'm confused. have we changed topic? |
23:23 | icarito | I promise not to impose any commits |
23:24 | walterbender | icarito, kaametza can we please stick to one topic at a time. I am confused |
23:24 | kaametza | Quozl, we have at least one active teacher on fiel in Perú in Spanish, still getting them involved in Community leadership is a titanic translation task , Ui should support this kind of needs |
23:25 | walterbender | I thought we were discussing "2017-1 Sugar and Sugar Web UI and UX Design Team/Actions/Ideas Meeting" and Quozl and I have been asking for clarification as to what that means and what is its scope |
23:25 | Quozl | i'm just confused. i'll keep reading and re-reading. |
23:25 | walterbender | icarito, so the answer to Quozl 's question about Sugarizer is yes? |
23:26 | so we are talking about design ideas for sugar, sugar-toolkit, sugar-web, and sugarizzer? | |
23:26 | Quozl | walterbender: yes, that's how i interpreted; sugarizer is in scope. it would be really good to have lionel involved. |
23:26 | kaametza | walterbender, yes I am explaining design shall starts with users needs |
23:26 | icarito | I see a number of questions by Quozl |
23:27 | you know what | |
23:27 | kaametza | today main topic was who is interested in contributing? |
23:27 | icarito | here's an idea I want t share |
23:27 | walterbender | kaametza, you have some user studies to share with us? great |
23:27 | icarito | I think sugar should be "fork-friendly" |
23:28 | that is, we should make it extra easy | |
23:28 | for everyone to make their own sugar | |
23:28 | we should encourage it | |
23:28 | kaametza | walterbender, you mean my answer to Tony with download statistics for Sugar Network? |
23:28 | icarito | we should insist that everyone should fork |
23:28 | in recognition that everyone has different needs | |
23:28 | and contexts | |
23:28 | kaametza | icarito, yes what Leonel Guillen suggest is to make a generic Sugar GNU?Linux distribution |
23:29 | walterbender | kaametza, I don't "mean" anything. You asserted that we should start with user studies and I am asking if you have studies to share. |
23:29 | Quozl | a "user study" would be professional teacher, professor, or education system review. not sugar network usage statistics. |
23:29 | kaametza | something like Sugar Educa |
23:30 | walterbender | kaametza, please explain... |
23:30 | icarito | just to understand... is it that you don't understand our idea? is it that you don't like it? |
23:30 | kaametza | Quozl, would be nice for Sugar Labs to invest in that line |
23:30 | walterbender | icarito, I have yet to hear n idea. I am just trying to understand |
23:31 | icarito | walterbender, over the years there's been a number of proposals for change in Sugar |
23:31 | yet the basic design has remained | |
23:31 | even though it clearly has flaws | |
23:31 | Quozl | kaametza: it would be biased research for sugar labs to do it. icarito: i agree with walter; i haven't detected an idea that i could express to anyone else. |
23:31 | icarito | I don't have for make scientific research to experiment |
23:31 | walterbender | icarito, (1) there have been many changes |
23:31 | (2) we have a mechanism for proposing and ebating changes | |
23:32 | icarito | yes well maybe I disagree with your process |
23:32 | walterbender | (3) if there are "flaws" then they should be discussed |
23:32 | and (4) evidence presented | |
23:32 | icarito | it is intrincate, north centric and reluctant of change |
23:32 | Quozl | icarito: yes, it clearly has flaws, we have a huge list of them in bugs.sugarlabs.org and sugar-devel@ but we only fix the most important ones. |
23:32 | kaametza | walterbender, basically Sugar and Sugar Web need to evolve as their users have evolve and their needs to use technology to find balance with the environment |
23:32 | Quozl | icarito: what does north centric mean? |
23:33 | icarito | sorry bad term |
23:33 | call it anglo-centric then | |
23:33 | or MIT centered maybe? | |
23:33 | walterbender | kaametza, I don't think anyone is arguing with the need to evolve. But what are you actually proposing in concrete terms? |
23:33 | icarito | i'm still discussion Sugar design |
23:33 | walterbender | icarito, I don't know what those assertions mean. |
23:34 | icarito | it means that Sugar is not culture agnostic |
23:34 | kaametza | walterbender, to recongnize this need and assemble a team to attend it |
23:34 | Quozl | icarito: i don't think i understand what you mean. speculating; do you mean it is too closely aligned with vocational training aspirations of western parenting and education systems? |
23:34 | walterbender | kaametza, what need? |
23:35 | kaametza | the need for the software-system-community cycle to evolve |
23:35 | walterbender | kaametza, not sure what that means. Can you please be more specific? |
23:35 | icarito | yes, it is a corporate grey, cold environment |
23:35 | kaametza | we as design team need to facilitate this cycle |
23:35 | icarito | it is not what we want to give children |
23:35 | kaametza | yes of course |
23:35 | icarito | it is also rigid |
23:35 | Quozl | ah, you want more flowers. |
23:35 | kaametza | I believe children are very smart |
23:35 | icarito | yes we do, and colors |
23:36 | Quozl | if you could add some more flowers and brightly coloured birds, will that satisfy these requirements? |
23:36 | icarito | Quozl, it's comments like that that have a chilling effect on dissenting though |
23:36 | thought | |
23:36 | walterbender | would it be OK if I provided some context for the current "cold" MIT/anglo-centric design? |
23:37 | Quozl | but it would help, right? |
23:37 | icarito | yes it would help. it's the first thing children do, to customize |
23:37 | Quozl | as part of a gradual process of improvement rather than a whole of artwork change. |
23:38 | icarito | as a part of citizenship participation in a community of friendly forks |
23:38 | walterbender | The roots of Sugar are grounded in Constructionism (which incidentally drew upon the work of Paulo Friere) |
23:38 | kaametza | Quozl, it would help a lot to have a friendly usefull* interface |
23:38 | Quozl | let the citizenship participate; but my point in earlier mail is that they don't, and won't, unless we change the environment. |
23:38 | icarito | Sugar is about civic engagement and taking ownership |
23:38 | kaametza | we need to define usefull in the reallity if each children user |
23:39 | walterbender | the idea behind the "cold" design was to leave the completion of the design to the children to construct themselves |
23:39 | icarito | walterbender, I like to call Sugar "Software de la liberación" |
23:39 | kaametza | icarito, also about making it a fun and friendly interface to use |
23:39 | walterbender | In the early days of Sugar, we didn't have very much as far as tools for customization |
23:40 | kaametza | walterbender, icarito gamification also needs to be considered |
23:40 | walterbender | but through the feature process that you described as North-centric, developers like Augustine, Ignacio, et al. have added many customization featues |
23:40 | including changing any icon | |
23:40 | kaametza | points, badges, games, and other dynamics are need for members bonding |
23:40 | walterbender | changing the background, etc. |
23:40 | Quozl | gamification is just another word for design for addiction, as used by slot machines and online betting software. |
23:40 | really don't want to make sugar addictive. | |
23:41 | kaametza | Quozl, is about purpose for technology |
23:41 | icarito | Quozl, we want to make learning addictive |
23:41 | I really enjoy some games that make me think | |
23:41 | walterbender | and another presumably "South-centric" idea was discussed on the lists: remove the color restriction on the icons |
23:41 | Quozl | icarito: no, we don't want to make learning addictive by making usage of sugar addictive. learning may happen when using sugar, but it also may not happen. |
23:41 | walterbender | My response was +1 since the original purpose of the icon colors seems to be rarely exploited |
23:41 | end of history lesson | |
23:42 | kaametza | thank you walterbender |
23:42 | icarito | thank you walter |
23:42 | walterbender | reads the comments interspersed while he was trying to speak |
23:42 | Quozl | walterbender: yes, i want the colour restriction removed, but ENOPATCH as yet. |
23:42 | icarito | 👏 |
23:42 | kaametza | so, am glad you came I understand today is a celebration |
23:43 | Quozl | i'm about to celebrate as cantor, as icarito knows from previous discussion, so i don't feel like this meeting is a celebration, more of a duty to the world's children. |
23:43 | walterbender | Quozl, I'd like to start with a well defined feature page in the wiki we can discuss |
23:43 | icarito | ok so thanks for your patience for our concerns |
23:43 | kaametza | BTW a common calendar added for the UI is also a project am interest on |
23:43 | Quozl | walterbender: yes, the feature process has worked well. |
23:44 | walterbender | As far as Laura's laundry list: badges, gamification. etc. I have my doubts, but am certainly open to hearing concrete details |
23:44 | icarito | walterbender, when I find the time and energy we'll have patches hopefully |
23:44 | walterbender | now, but to the topic at hand: kaametza you suggested that you had user studies? |
23:44 | icarito, a feature page would be a good start | |
23:44 | Quozl | walterbender: i added badges and progress gamification to netrek gytha client at about the same point in the adoption curve, and it didn't achieve anything. ;-) |
23:45 | kaametza | walterbender, agree priority should be release a generic Sugar -Sugar Web Educa GNU Linux Distribution |
23:45 | walterbender | Quozl, I added badge support to the Journal and some activities for OLPC AU and it went nowhere |
23:45 | icarito | yes actually our priorities could be to facilitate the "community of friendly forks" bit |
23:45 | walterbender | I see no pedagogical value, but I am willing to learn |
23:45 | icarito | i.e. to build a distro |
23:45 | Quozl | walterbender: perhaps the patch could be included on the feature page. |
23:46 | kaametza | icarito, details please |
23:46 | icarito | here is what I had so far https://wiki.debian.org/SugarBlend |
23:46 | walterbender | kaametza, you seem to have changed the subject again and I don't know what you mean by Sugar Web Educa |
23:47 | icarito | walterbender, sorry in today's thread somebody gave a hypothetical sugar based distro that name |
23:47 | walterbender | Quozl, A feature with a patch is all the more persuasive |
23:47 | Quozl | kaametza: a "distribution" of linux is a very big task, somewhat outside the scope of sugar labs. we already, now, have fedora soas, and it is apparently easy to build, why not use that? we also have debian sugarblend well documented and i used it the other day to test 0.111, why can't we use that? |
23:47 | icarito | hey how about we add to the Code of Conduct, to avoid sarcasm? |
23:47 | it really doesn't make you look smart | |
23:48 | kaametza | Quozl, why would you consider "outside the scope of Sugar Labs"? |
23:48 | walterbender | icarito, I don't detect any sarcasm? |
23:48 | kaametza | Its a bit premature if you haven';t as community |
23:48 | Quozl | icarito: i missed it, where was the sarcasm? |
23:48 | icarito | yes yes, a feature page and patch, please. |
23:49 | the topic was "idea discussion" | |
23:49 | kaametza | icarito, please |
23:49 | the purpose of todays meeting was to define who is interested in contributing | |
23:49 | walterbender | icarito, I was not being sarcastic... If you want your ideas to persuade, I think it is a very powerful strategy |
23:49 | icarito, you mentioned you had a patch... so you are well on the way | |
23:50 | Quozl | kaametza: i consider a "distribution" of linux as outside the scope of sugar labs, because sugar labs hasn't been consistent with respect to distributions; choosing first the OLPC, then Fedora, then Ubuntu, then Debian. wide variation, and we want Sugar to run on all of them. that's why. |
23:50 | icarito | our community is diverse and so should Sugar be |
23:50 | kaametza | walterbender, we may be a bit frustrated because we want to use Sugar more frequently during Programming Worshops |
23:50 | icarito | so what I'll do instead is make a branch |
23:50 | walterbender | Quozl, +1. Indeed it was a founding principle of Sugar Labs |
23:50 | Quozl | icarito: oh, you interpreted that as sarcasm? thanks. hadn't thought of that. as developer who has made the most patches and merged the most pull requests this year, i am of course process focused, and ideas are necessarily tested against process in my mind. sorry! |
23:51 | kaametza | and it would be nice to see cool features added to it |
23:51 | walterbender | kaametza, can you please articulate how Sugar is getting in the way of your using it in programming workshops? |
23:51 | icarito | yes you know we do what we can |
23:51 | kaametza | for example, why Igancio's patch ended as an Activity for changing the icon? |
23:52 | walterbender | kaametza, yes... he and I worked very hard on that |
23:52 | kaametza | walterbender, on the contrary it is not anymore since it's UI is now trademark libre |
23:52 | :D | |
23:52 | icarito | it doesn't get in the way but we want to have/make a recipe for building the whole stack from Sugar Labs |
23:52 | and change anything | |
23:52 | kaametza | why did you change his original purpose? |
23:52 | icarito | for any school, parent or country |
23:53 | walterbender | kaametza, the idea at the time was to make as much of Sugar available to modification through activities (as opposed to Sugar core) since it would reach more users that way (no need for root access) and be an example for others |
23:53 | Quozl | icarito: the whole stack is already easily built; you want it to be easier, is that right? tony mentioned something like that in private mail, he sounds like he wants a web service that will build him a sugar image. |
23:53 | kaametza | walterbender, "it would be nice to see cool features added to it" |
23:53 | icarito | Quozl, I could build that |
23:53 | walterbender | kaametza, I am sorry. Confused again. Cool features added to what? |
23:53 | icarito | I'd like to actually |
23:54 | Quozl | icarito: i suggest hosting it on AWS, as the MIT infra is a bit small for it. |
23:54 | kaametza | walterbender, Quozl, icarito 6 minutes and I have to run! |
23:55 | Quozl | icarito: do you have AWS site in your country? i don't know where they site. i know they have one in sydney. |
23:55 | kaametza | so, my proposal is to keep meeting weekly whoever wants to contribute to this team |
23:55 | icarito | Quozl, any plans to share debian packaging? I'd love to evolve https://wiki.debian.org/SugarBlend with anything you could share |
23:56 | Quozl, I'm still a beginner packager | |
23:56 | Quozl | can we choose another time then? doing irc from within the church chapel, while fun, isn't something i want to do every week. |
23:56 | walterbender | kaametza, we are all very busy. concrete agenda items would help |
23:56 | Quozl | icarito: the debian packaging by jonas is fine, there's nothing in my packages except OLPC hardware specific stuff. |
23:57 | kaametza | Quozl, please sorry do propose another time still do consider we are home-schooling and have very few time flexibility |
23:57 | walterbender | still confused about the topic we are discussing |
23:57 | icarito | and what about activities? |
23:57 | walterbender | what about activities? |
23:57 | Quozl | icarito: you can find packaging (walterbender: we are way off topic and in a rush) in gonzalo and tchx84's github repos. same for activities. |
23:57 | icarito | cool |
23:58 | Quozl | (either branch or separate repo). |
23:58 | kaametza | walterbender, Sugar design team was inactive, today we are rectivating it |
23:58 | icarito | if I had to summarize I'd say we discussed the need for more sugar experimentation and customization so glad we could share perspectives |
23:58 | kaametza | I'll invite everyone for next week |
23:58 | icarito | thank you for your time and, god bless you James |
23:59 | you too Walter ;-) | |
23:59 | walterbender | thank you |
23:59 | kaametza | Hope you all have a great new year! |
23:59 | Quozl | #endmeeting pls? |
23:59 | icarito | thank you |
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