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#sugar-meeting, 2017-09-21

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23:03 kaametza hola a todos!
23:03 icarito hola
23:05 kaametza #start meeting Topic: Sugar and Sugar Web UI and UX Design Team
23:07 #startmeeting
23:07 meeting Meeting started Thu Sep 21 23:07:13 2017 UTC. The chair is kaametza. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot.
23:07 Useful Commands: #action #agreed #help #info #idea #link #topic #endmeeting
23:08 kaametza #Topic 2017-1 Sugar and Sugar Web UI and UX Design Team/Actions/Ideas Meeting
23:08  Pato_Acevedo, icarito, walterbender, Quozl thanks for expressing interest in today's meeting
23:09 I understand many won't be able to make it today still, I hope to be able to continue leading periodic meetings
23:10 icarito, ya que solo estamos tu y yo, prefires que nos comuniquemos en castellano?
23:10 icarito si
23:10 kaametza bien
23:11 walterbender I think there are many non-Spanish speakers here
23:11 icarito disculpa walter
23:11 kaametza hola walterbender
23:11 Quozl yes, lots of non-spanish speakers.  why exclude us?
23:11 kaametza :D oh no sorry
23:11 icarito salutations
23:11 kaametza I celebrate you joining
23:12 I
23:12 I like to think this team will deal with several UI an UX upgrading opportunities for Sugar and Sugar-Web.
23:12 icarito, can you translate to Spanish pls?
23:12 Quozl what is sugar-web?
23:13 icarito kaametza, can't do that and think, sorry
23:14 sugar-web is the js lib underlying web activities
23:14 https://github.com/sugarlabs/sugar-web/
23:14 kaametza hummm walterbender can you lead me here please, how does the translations of the meeting work?
23:14 Quozl icarito: thanks, Sugar Web is the activity API for JavaScript activities.
23:14 walterbender kaametza, not sure if it is working... I just tried #sugar-meeting-es
23:15 maybe the bot is down
23:15 Quozl kaametza: do you have any only-spanish-speaking people here?  i've not seen any.  you mentioned Pato_Acevedo but there is no nick name present with those letters.
23:16 walterbender and what about sugar-toolkit? or is the interest only in sugar and the web API?
23:16 icarito yes sugar-toolkit as well
23:16 keep consistency
23:16 Quozl what about sugarizer?
23:16 kaametza Quozl, in my ideal user experience a Sugar user will be reading today's meeting
23:17 Quozl kaametza: i don't understand what you mean by "Quozl, in my ideal user experience a Sugar user will be reading today's meeting"
23:17 kaametza Majority if Sugar users today speak spanish
23:17 Quozl kaametza: but these Sugar users of which you speak, they aren't here now, so translation can occur later.
23:17 icarito sugarizer is Lionel's project but he's expressed consent for alternative instances to appear
23:18 kaametza I mean Sugar users need to be incorporated to the upgrading cycle - majority are non Engligh speakers
23:18 icarito we've started at http://laboratoriosazucar.org/azucarizador/
23:18 Quozl i'll restate my question; is the scope of your design effort to include sugarizer design elements?
23:19 kaametza: i don't understand what you mean by "I mean Sugar users need to be incorporated to the upgrading cycle - majority are non Engligh speakers" ... you don't seem to have answered my question "do you have any only-spanish-speaking people here in this meeting?"
23:19 kaametza icarito, I really enjoy the experience in the "azucarizador"
23:20 icarito Quozl, no there are no only Spanish speakers here
23:20 Quozl icarito: good, thanks.  there is no need for translation now, translation can be done later.
23:20 icarito Quozl, why do you insist on that topic
23:20 kaametza I also notice the Jappy activity is included
23:20 icarito we're already speaking English
23:21 kaametza and the strings are in Spanish :S
23:21 icarito it's Sugarizer
23:21 with only the center icon change for now
23:21 Quozl icarito: i am not insisting, i am responding to the discussion above where you and kaametza and walterbender spoke about the automatic translation feature of the meeting robots.
23:21 kaametza Thanks to you and Lionel and teams, great tools for the teachers!
23:23 On another Topic to be discussed, I have proposed a Design Marathon for October, please ping if intersted in contributing
23:23 icarito I find Sugarizer easier to approach for rapid prototyping so I could do that and when there's been discussion/consensus we can work into pull requests for sugar proper
23:23 Quozl i'm confused.  have we changed topic?
23:23 icarito I promise not to impose any commits
23:24 walterbender icarito, kaametza can we please stick to one topic at a time. I am confused
23:24 kaametza Quozl, we have at least one active teacher on fiel in Perú in Spanish, still getting them involved in Community leadership is a titanic translation task , Ui should support this kind of needs
23:25 walterbender I thought we were discussing "2017-1 Sugar and Sugar Web UI and UX Design Team/Actions/Ideas Meeting" and Quozl and I have been asking for clarification as to what that means and what is its scope
23:25 Quozl i'm just confused.  i'll keep reading and re-reading.
23:25 walterbender icarito, so the answer to Quozl 's question about Sugarizer is yes?
23:26 so we are talking about design ideas for sugar, sugar-toolkit, sugar-web, and sugarizzer?
23:26 Quozl walterbender: yes, that's how i interpreted; sugarizer is in scope.  it would be really good to have lionel involved.
23:26 kaametza walterbender, yes I am explaining design shall starts with users needs
23:26 icarito I see a number of questions by Quozl
23:27 you know what
23:27 kaametza today main topic was who is interested in contributing?
23:27 icarito here's an idea I want t share
23:27 walterbender kaametza, you have some user studies to share with us? great
23:27 icarito I think sugar should be "fork-friendly"
23:28 that is, we should make it extra easy
23:28 for everyone to make their own sugar
23:28 we should encourage it
23:28 kaametza walterbender, you mean my answer to Tony with download statistics for Sugar Network?
23:28 icarito we should insist that everyone should fork
23:28 in recognition that everyone has different needs
23:28 and contexts
23:28 kaametza icarito, yes what Leonel Guillen suggest is to make a generic Sugar GNU?Linux distribution
23:29 walterbender kaametza, I don't "mean" anything. You asserted that we should start with user studies and I am asking if you have studies to share.
23:29 Quozl a "user study" would be professional teacher, professor, or education system review.  not sugar network usage statistics.
23:29 kaametza something like Sugar Educa
23:30 walterbender kaametza, please explain...
23:30 icarito just to understand... is it that you don't understand our idea? is it that you don't like it?
23:30 kaametza Quozl, would be nice for Sugar Labs to invest in that line
23:30 walterbender icarito, I have yet to hear n idea. I am just trying to understand
23:31 icarito walterbender, over the years there's been a number of proposals for change in Sugar
23:31 yet the basic design has remained
23:31 even though it clearly has flaws
23:31 Quozl kaametza: it would be biased research for sugar labs to do it.  icarito: i agree with walter; i haven't detected an idea that i could express to anyone else.
23:31 icarito I don't have for make scientific research to experiment
23:31 walterbender icarito, (1) there have been many changes
23:31 (2) we have a mechanism for proposing and ebating changes
23:32 icarito yes well maybe I disagree with your process
23:32 walterbender (3) if there are "flaws" then they should be discussed
23:32 and (4) evidence presented
23:32 icarito it is intrincate, north centric and reluctant of change
23:32 Quozl icarito: yes, it clearly has flaws, we have a huge list of them in bugs.sugarlabs.org and sugar-devel@ but we only fix the most important ones.
23:32 kaametza walterbender, basically Sugar and Sugar Web need to evolve as their users have evolve and their needs to use technology to find balance with the environment
23:32 Quozl icarito: what does north centric mean?
23:33 icarito sorry bad term
23:33 call it anglo-centric then
23:33 or MIT centered maybe?
23:33 walterbender kaametza, I don't think anyone is arguing with the need to evolve. But what are you actually proposing in concrete terms?
23:33 icarito i'm still discussion Sugar design
23:33 walterbender icarito, I don't know what those assertions mean.
23:34 icarito it means that Sugar is not culture agnostic
23:34 kaametza walterbender, to recongnize this need and assemble a team to attend it
23:34 Quozl icarito: i don't think i understand what you mean.  speculating; do you mean it is too closely aligned with vocational training aspirations of western parenting and education systems?
23:34 walterbender kaametza, what need?
23:35 kaametza the need for the software-system-community cycle to evolve
23:35 walterbender kaametza, not sure what that means. Can you please be more specific?
23:35 icarito yes, it is a corporate grey, cold environment
23:35 kaametza we as design team need to facilitate this cycle
23:35 icarito it is not what we want to give children
23:35 kaametza yes of course
23:35 icarito it is also rigid
23:35 Quozl ah, you want more flowers.
23:35 kaametza I believe children are very smart
23:35 icarito yes we do, and colors
23:36 Quozl if you could add some more flowers and brightly coloured birds, will that satisfy these requirements?
23:36 icarito Quozl, it's comments like that that have a chilling effect on dissenting though
23:36 thought
23:36 walterbender would it be OK if I provided some context for the current "cold" MIT/anglo-centric design?
23:37 Quozl but it would help, right?
23:37 icarito yes it would help. it's the first thing children do, to customize
23:37 Quozl as part of a gradual process of improvement rather than a whole of artwork change.
23:38 icarito as a part of citizenship participation in a community of friendly forks
23:38 walterbender The roots of Sugar are grounded in Constructionism (which incidentally drew upon the work of Paulo Friere)
23:38 kaametza Quozl, it would help a lot to have a friendly usefull* interface
23:38 Quozl let the citizenship participate; but my point in earlier mail is that they don't, and won't, unless we change the environment.
23:38 icarito Sugar is about civic engagement and taking ownership
23:38 kaametza we need to define usefull in the reallity if each children user
23:39 walterbender the idea behind the "cold" design was to leave the completion of the design to the children to construct themselves
23:39 icarito walterbender, I like to call Sugar "Software de la liberación"
23:39 kaametza icarito, also about making it a fun and friendly interface to use
23:39 walterbender In the early days of Sugar, we didn't have very much as far as tools for customization
23:40 kaametza walterbender, icarito gamification also needs to be considered
23:40 walterbender but through the feature process that you described as North-centric, developers like Augustine, Ignacio, et al. have added many customization featues
23:40 including changing any icon
23:40 kaametza points, badges, games, and other dynamics are need for members bonding
23:40 walterbender changing the background, etc.
23:40 Quozl gamification is just another word for design for addiction, as used by slot machines and online betting software.
23:40 really don't want to make sugar addictive.
23:41 kaametza Quozl, is about purpose for technology
23:41 icarito Quozl, we want to make learning addictive
23:41 I really enjoy some games that make me think
23:41 walterbender and another presumably "South-centric" idea was discussed on the lists: remove the color restriction on the icons
23:41 Quozl icarito: no, we don't want to make learning addictive by making usage of sugar addictive.  learning may happen when using sugar, but it also may not happen.
23:41 walterbender My response was +1 since the original purpose of the icon colors seems to be rarely exploited
23:41 end of history lesson
23:42 kaametza thank you walterbender
23:42 icarito thank you walter
23:42 walterbender reads the comments interspersed while he was trying to speak
23:42 Quozl walterbender: yes, i want the colour restriction removed, but ENOPATCH as yet.
23:42 icarito 👏
23:42 kaametza so, am glad you came I understand today is a celebration
23:43 Quozl i'm about to celebrate as cantor, as icarito knows from previous discussion, so i don't feel like this meeting is a celebration, more of a duty to the world's children.
23:43 walterbender Quozl, I'd like to start with a well defined feature page in the wiki we can discuss
23:43 icarito ok so thanks for your patience for our concerns
23:43 kaametza BTW a common calendar added for the UI is also a project am interest on
23:43 Quozl walterbender: yes, the feature process has worked well.
23:44 walterbender As far as Laura's laundry list: badges, gamification. etc. I have my doubts, but am certainly open to hearing concrete details
23:44 icarito walterbender, when I find the time and energy we'll have patches hopefully
23:44 walterbender now, but to the topic at hand: kaametza you suggested that you had user studies?
23:44 icarito, a feature page would be a good start
23:44 Quozl walterbender: i added badges and progress gamification to netrek gytha client at about the same point in the adoption curve, and it didn't achieve anything.  ;-)
23:45 kaametza walterbender, agree priority should be release a generic Sugar -Sugar Web Educa GNU Linux Distribution
23:45 walterbender Quozl, I added badge support to the Journal and some activities for OLPC AU and it went nowhere
23:45 icarito yes actually our priorities could be to facilitate the "community of friendly forks" bit
23:45 walterbender I see no pedagogical value, but I am willing to learn
23:45 icarito i.e. to build a distro
23:45 Quozl walterbender: perhaps the patch could be included on the feature page.
23:46 kaametza icarito, details please
23:46 icarito here is what I had so far https://wiki.debian.org/SugarBlend
23:46 walterbender kaametza, you seem to have changed the subject again and I don't know what you mean by Sugar Web Educa
23:47 icarito walterbender, sorry in today's thread somebody gave a hypothetical sugar based distro that name
23:47 walterbender Quozl, A feature with a patch is all the more persuasive
23:47 Quozl kaametza: a "distribution" of linux is a very big task, somewhat outside the scope of sugar labs.  we already, now, have fedora soas, and it is apparently easy to build, why not use that?  we also have debian sugarblend well documented and i used it the other day to test 0.111, why can't we use that?
23:47 icarito hey how about we add to the Code of Conduct, to avoid sarcasm?
23:47 it really doesn't make you look smart
23:48 kaametza Quozl, why would you consider "outside the scope of Sugar Labs"?
23:48 walterbender icarito, I don't detect any sarcasm?
23:48 kaametza Its a bit premature if you haven';t as community
23:48 Quozl icarito: i missed it, where was the sarcasm?
23:48 icarito yes yes, a feature page and patch, please.
23:49 the topic was "idea discussion"
23:49 kaametza icarito, please
23:49 the purpose of todays meeting was to define who is interested in contributing
23:49 walterbender icarito, I was not being sarcastic... If you want your ideas to persuade, I think it is a very powerful strategy
23:49 icarito, you mentioned you had a patch... so you are well on the way
23:50 Quozl kaametza: i consider a "distribution" of linux as outside the scope of sugar labs, because sugar labs hasn't been consistent with respect to distributions; choosing first the OLPC, then Fedora, then Ubuntu, then Debian.  wide variation, and we want Sugar to run on all of them.  that's why.
23:50 icarito our community is diverse and so should Sugar be
23:50 kaametza walterbender, we may be a bit frustrated because we want to use Sugar more frequently during Programming Worshops
23:50 icarito so what I'll do instead is make a branch
23:50 walterbender Quozl, +1. Indeed it was a founding principle of Sugar Labs
23:50 Quozl icarito: oh, you interpreted that as sarcasm?  thanks.  hadn't thought of that.  as developer who has made the most patches and merged the most pull requests this year, i am of course process focused, and ideas are necessarily tested against process in my mind.  sorry!
23:51 kaametza and it would be nice to see cool features added to it
23:51 walterbender kaametza, can you please articulate how Sugar is getting in the way of your using it in programming workshops?
23:51 icarito yes you know we do what we can
23:51 kaametza for example, why Igancio's patch ended as an Activity for changing the icon?
23:52 walterbender kaametza, yes... he and I worked very hard on that
23:52 kaametza walterbender, on the contrary it is not anymore since it's UI is now trademark libre
23:52 :D
23:52 icarito it doesn't get in the way but we want to have/make a recipe for building the whole stack from Sugar Labs
23:52 and change anything
23:52 kaametza why did you change his original purpose?
23:52 icarito for any school, parent or country
23:53 walterbender kaametza, the idea at the time was to make as much of Sugar available to modification through activities (as opposed to Sugar core) since it would reach more users that way (no need for root access) and be an example for others
23:53 Quozl icarito: the whole stack is already easily built; you want it to be easier, is that right?  tony mentioned something like that in private mail, he sounds like he wants a web service that will build him a sugar image.
23:53 kaametza walterbender, "it would be nice to see cool features added to it"
23:53 icarito Quozl, I could build that
23:53 walterbender kaametza, I am sorry. Confused again. Cool features added to what?
23:53 icarito I'd like to actually
23:54 Quozl icarito: i suggest hosting it on AWS, as the MIT infra is a bit small for it.
23:54 kaametza walterbender, Quozl, icarito 6 minutes and I have to run!
23:55 Quozl icarito: do you have AWS site in your country?  i don't know where they site.  i know they have one in sydney.
23:55 kaametza so, my proposal is to keep meeting weekly whoever wants to contribute to this team
23:55 icarito Quozl, any plans to share debian packaging? I'd love to evolve https://wiki.debian.org/SugarBlend with anything you could share
23:56 Quozl, I'm still a beginner packager
23:56 Quozl can we choose another time then?  doing irc from within the church chapel, while fun, isn't something i want to do every week.
23:56 walterbender kaametza, we are all very busy.  concrete agenda items would help
23:56 Quozl icarito: the debian packaging by jonas is fine, there's nothing in my packages except OLPC hardware specific stuff.
23:57 kaametza Quozl, please sorry do propose another time still do consider we are home-schooling and have very few time flexibility
23:57 walterbender still confused about the topic we are discussing
23:57 icarito and what about activities?
23:57 walterbender what about activities?
23:57 Quozl icarito: you can find packaging (walterbender: we are way off topic and in a rush) in gonzalo and tchx84's github repos.  same for activities.
23:57 icarito cool
23:58 Quozl (either branch or separate repo).
23:58 kaametza walterbender, Sugar design team was inactive, today we are rectivating it
23:58 icarito if I had to summarize I'd say we discussed the need for more sugar experimentation and customization so glad we could share perspectives
23:58 kaametza I'll invite everyone for next week
23:58 icarito thank you for your time and, god bless you James
23:59 you too Walter ;-)
23:59 walterbender thank you
23:59 kaametza Hope you all have a great new year!
23:59 Quozl #endmeeting pls?
23:59 icarito thank you

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